Would you date a trans person? II

[Aurora]

Follow up to the thread started by Queercommie Girl here http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-willing-t140203/index.html

"Would you, at least in principle/potentially, be willing to date a trans person? This includes both trans-women, trans-men and genderqueers, and it's a question for everyone: straight, homo and trans alike."

An explanation of your choice would be appreciated.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Where is the poll?

[Le Rouge]

I am not sure...Depends on the person...Too much variables here

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Yeah, I'm the first to dissent!

[Aurora]

The poll's up now, you two were just very quick into the thread ;)

I'm interested to see how the result has changed over time theres been quite a large turnover of revlefters since then, a lot of trolls were banned and a lot of well established members too

[marl]

Not attracted to that.

And that's a pretty big part.

You know what I mean by that.

[Aurora]

Not attracted to that.

And that's a pretty big part.

You know what I mean by that.

I presume your talking about a penis, something which transwomen who have completely transitioned do not have, does that change anything for you?
For a lot of trans people it would be impossible to tell that they were once of another sex unless they specifically told you.

[marl]

I presume your talking about a penis, something which transwomen who have completely transitioned do not have, does that change anything for you?
For a lot of trans people it would be impossible to tell that they were once of another sex unless they specifically told you.

Yes, I was referring to genitalia. I don't know if it happens or not, but going to have intercourse and coming across a surprise like so would be outside my comfort zone.

[Le Rouge]

Yes, I was referring to genitalia. I don't know if it happens or not, but going to have intercourse and coming across a surprise like so would be outside my comfort zone.

Same here.

*Pull down pants* "What?" *pull down underwears* "DA FUK?" *Run away and cry like a baby*

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Is a female's genitalia the same as a transwoman's genitalia. No, it will never be exactly the same, but if you think it will be similar enough, please reply to this post.

[Kitty_Paine]

Is a female's genitalia the same as a transwoman's genitalia. No, it will never be exactly the same, but if you think it will be similar enough, please reply to this post.

Some of them are actually pretty damn similar looking; like it would have fooled me. (I saw pictures in my psyc. class). Same in appearance, but obviously not in functioning.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I would not want to date a trans person.

[Aurora]

Is a female's genitalia the same as a transwoman's genitalia. No, it will never be exactly the same, but if you think it will be similar enough, please reply to this post.
What are you basing this on? i'll say it again transwomen who have completely transitioned are unidentifiable from women who were born female. For all you know you may have already dated a transwoman. Miss Canada 2012 was transgender and no one knew until she told someone.

So if appearance isn't a problem, which it isn't, then what are your objections to dating a trans person?

[gorillafuck]

"would you date someone who is ethnically black even if they look completely white?"

"no, I'm not racist at all but the thought of them having the genes of a black person freaks me out"

[Brosa Luxemburg]

"would you date someone who is ethnically black even if they look completely white?"

"no, I'm not racist at all but the thought of them having the genes of a black person freaks me out"

Horrible analogy.

[gorillafuck]

how?

[00001]

I mean, lets not kid ourselves... appearances aside, there are definite differences in sexual functioning.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

If I'm attracted to the person yes.
If not, No.
Pretty simple.

[Bronco]

Hmm I've been giving this some thought since my answer in the last thread saying I wouldn't, and I'm not actually sure if I would, I don't think I could know unless I was in the situation. It'd probably depend on a lot, if I started dating a transwoman before I knew than it's more likely I'd continue dating them than if I had been aware of it from the outset, and tbh that probably is due to underlying prejudices I might have and the stigma that's associated with it more than anything else.

It is true that it can be very hard to tell the difference if they're post-op, the Miss Canada 2010 was mentioned earlier and damn, she is actually hot (http://www.outnews.co.uk/on1/images/stories/726075Jenna_Talackova_1.jpg), says a lot that she was able to win that competition.

[gorillafuck]

I mean, lets not kid ourselves... appearances aside, there are definite differences in sexual functioning.what are these important differences in sexual functioning?

edit: I'm actually curious because I know how male-to-female sexual reassignment surgery works but I do not know how female-to-male works

[Kronsteen]

The only woman I've ever been on a date with used to be a man.

And she was a socialist - before I was.

[00001]

what are these important differences in sexual functioning?

edit: I'm actually curious because I know how male-to-female sexual reassignment surgery works but I do not know how female-to-male works

I am not an expert on the subject, but I know that the sexual functioning is not the same.

[Proletariat]

The possibility is there but more then likely I would not.

[Pretty Flaco]

if they had a vagina and looked attractive to me, sure why not? i might be awkwarded out at first but if i really liked them then it wouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Ostrinski]

Voted yes. The ones that say no are still buying into the idea that transwomen aren't women. It's quite an insulting, bigoted opinion to have really.

It's like saying "Sure we should buy into the pro lgbt rhetoric, we should politically vouch for equality, but we all know they're not really women."

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

There is too little that I know about transgenderism for me to know one way or the other, which is why I chose "not sure". In politics I would defend them to the death but there is a part of me which is very ignorant and close-minded about entering into a personal relationship with one. Unfortunately, I haven't yet figured out a way to transcend this. Hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later.

[Zostrianos]

If she still had a penis, no. Otherwise I wouldn't be closed to the idea. I once saw a documentary on trans women in Thailand, and most of them look indistinguishable from a 'real' woman - and a lot of them look absolutely stunning.

[Kronsteen]

If she still had a penis, no.

Whyever not? If we're talking about just having sex with her, then what you want is a vagina. If there's a penis there too that doesn't negate the vagina, does it?

Presumably you're not homophobic, nor are you afraid of penises. Which means you're indifferent to their charms. So why is it suddenly a turn off? If you're having a threesome with another man and one women, does the presence of his genitals make you scream and run off in horror?

And if we're not talking about having sex with her - just going out on a date as the OP asks - you won't even see it. Penises are not magic.

[The Young Pioneer]

This thread is fucking stupid. Why is it even a question, firstly? And second, it's just asking for trouble.

It's asking for transgendered people to be possibly upset by responses here, and asking for some of those who answer honestly to be judged and criticised.

[Aurora]

Would it be any better though to just ignore it?

At least asking it in the open we can get some discussion going and i'm confident that we'll change some peoples opinions.
I think most people probably haven't thought about it, just like i hadn't thought about it until Queercommie Girl started the last thread.

[escapingNihilism]

don't think I could, no.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

The ones that say no are still buying into the idea that transwomen aren't women. It's quite an insulting, bigoted opinion to have really.

It's like saying "Sure we should buy into the pro lgbt rhetoric, we should politically vouch for equality, but we all know they're not really women."

You are basically saying, "Whoever does not have the same sexual preference as me and whoever does not follow the self-perception-based view on gender is most likely a bigot." False.

[Ostrinski]

You are basically saying, "Whoever does not have the same sexual preference as me and whoever does not follow the self-perception-based view on gender is most likely a bigot." False.I'm heterosexual just like you kiddo, I dunno where you're getting that from

[Ostrinski]

I'm glad we have this thread. Weeds out the charlatans.

[Lobotomy]

yes of course I would. I had a little crush on a trans man once.

[gorillafuck]

This thread is fucking stupid. Why is it even a question, firstly? And second, it's just asking for trouble.so is all leftist discussion.

I don't get the reasoning behind not asking certain questions just because there might be strong opinions.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I'm heterosexual just like you kiddo, I dunno where you're getting that from

You are heterosexual, but you did say that you would be willing to have a relationship with a transwoman. And this is where I got my rant from:


Voted yes. The ones that say no are still buying into the idea that transwomen aren't women. It's quite an insulting, bigoted opinion to have really.

It's like saying "Sure we should buy into the pro lgbt rhetoric, we should politically vouch for equality, but we all know they're not really women."

The last part was just mocking me, which was just childish.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I'm glad we have this thread. Weeds out the charlatans.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index34.html?highlight=transexual

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1707027&postcount=667

Don't try to "weed" me out. It is pathetic. Deal with the fact that I have a different opinion on such a sensitive issue.

[Ostrinski]

You are heterosexual, but you did say that you would be willing to have a relationship with a transwoman. And this is where I got my rant from:Why the 'but'? It's not as if a transwoman is any less of a woman. Saying that you would date a transwoman is not a deviation or extension of heterosexuality, it's just not being bigoted (i.e. acknowleding that transwomen are women).


The last part was just mocking me, which was just childish.It was directed at everyone who said no

[Ostrinski]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-date-t113436/index34.html?highlight=transexual

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1707027&postcount=667

Don't try to "weed" me out. It is pathetic. Deal with the fact that I have a different opinion on such a sensitive issue.My issue is not that you have a different opinion, but is the conservative, discriminatory nature of the opinion.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Why the 'but'? It's not as if a transwoman is any less of a woman. Saying that you would date a transwoman is not a deviation or extension of heterosexuality, it's just not being bigoted (i.e. acknowleding that transwomen are women).

It was directed at everyone who said no

To address your first paragraph, what I was trying to get to was that the acceptance for love of a transwoman is a sexual preference. I know it is not a sexual orientation or an extension of one. I thought that you were denying the fact that that kind of love is a sexual preference.

To address your last paragraph, I was talking about the last paragraph from your post which I did not bold that pretty much took my opinions verbatim and skewed them slightly to make me sound like an asshole.

[Ostrinski]

To address your first paragraph, what I was trying to get to was that the acceptance for love of a transwoman is a sexual preference. I know it is not a sexual orientation or an extension of one. I thought that you were denying the fact that that kind of love is a sexual preference.Sure it's a sexual preference, a sexual preference for women. There shouldn't be a need for a distinction between women and transwomen unless you don't think a transwoman is a woman.


To address your last paragraph, I was talking about the last paragraph from your post which I did not bold that pretty much took my opinions verbatim and skewed them slightly to make me sound like an asshole.Maybe you interpret it that way, but it is directed at everyone that voted no.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

My issue is not that you have a different opinion, but is the conservative, discriminatory nature of the opinion.

How is it conservative if conservatives will not even accept transsexuals, but I will wholeheartedly? How is it discriminatory if I said repeatedly that I stand for the absolute equal rights of all oppressed sexualities? I am not conservative or discriminatory simply because I am not willing to have a relationship with a transsexual (which is my choice), or because I take genetics (chromosomes would be absolute in deciding gender, but not useful for picking a partner) to be supreme to whatever someone wants to call themselves and change themselves into. Yet, that does not mean that if I meet a transwoman, that I will keep on calling her a "him" against her wishes, nor will I treat her differently than any other human being. I just want it to be known what I define gender as. The End.

[Ostrinski]

wordsSingling out a whole group of women like that qualifies as discrimination. It's like saying you wouldn't date a black or latino woman. The end.

And no, chromosomes don't decide gender. That certainly is a conservative view.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Singling out a whole group of women like that qualifies as discrimination. It's like saying you wouldn't date a black or latino woman. The end.

And no, chromosomes don't decide gender. That certainly is a conservative view.

I'm done. That's it. If you want to hold on to your fantasy that I am a discriminatory conservative while also being a revolutionary leftist, then that is your fucking problem.

And that last sentence was full of so much bullshit that I laughed the cereal I was eating out of my mouth. A scientific view is conservative? That's pretty fucking funny. Show me how it is not scientific and I will change my mind.

And like I have said in the different thread, I do not think transwomen should be put in a different social category. I am simply talking about my own private opinion on gender. In society, transwomen should not be treated as men and the law should reflect that.

[Ostrinski]

And that last sentence was full of so much bullshit that I laughed the cereal I was eating out of my mouth. A scientific view is conservative? That's pretty fucking funny. Show me how it is not scientific and I will change my mind.You realize that all of revleft agrees with me right

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

You realize that all of revleft agrees with me right

Ohhhhhhhhh, an argument automatically becomes correct when a majority believes in it? A majority of Americans think communism is just taking people's money away and killing them. It is a majority, thus they must be correct! Please show me real evidence that I am wrong instead of making a bullshit argumentum ad populum. I will welcome any real challenge that uses actual evidence.

[Ostrinski]

meh. I'll leave it up to someone else

[kashkin]

Sweet jesus, aside from the fact that you are mixing gender and sex (and still calling transmen 'she' and vice versa), just having two chromosomes doesn't necessarily mean you will be born with female genitalia and vice versa. Aside from someone telling you, how ther hell would you be able to tell if someone is trans post-op?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Sweet jesus, aside from the fact that you are mixing gender and sex (and still calling transmen 'she' and vice versa), just having two chromosomes doesn't necessarily mean you will be born with female genitalia and vice versa. Aside from someone telling you, how ther hell would you be able to tell if someone is trans post-op?

Well, I explained some more of my opinions in the other thread about this issue. I rather not speak of it anymore. All I know is that if I know someone is transsexual, then I will not have a romantic or sexual relationship with that person. If I don't know, then I'm fucked.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

A scientific view is conservative? That's pretty fucking funny. Show me how it is not scientific and I will change my mind.

how is it scientific to say that transwomen somehow arent good enough for your little prepubescent dick becuz of chromosomes?

[Bronco]

How is it conservative if conservatives will not even accept transsexuals, but I will wholeheartedly? How is it discriminatory if I said repeatedly that I stand for the absolute equal rights of all oppressed sexualities? I am not conservative or discriminatory simply because I am not willing to have a relationship with a transsexual (which is my choice), or because I take genetics (chromosomes would be absolute in deciding gender, but not useful for picking a partner) to be supreme to whatever someone wants to call themselves and change themselves into. Yet, that does not mean that if I meet a transwoman, that I will keep on calling her a "him" against her wishes, nor will I treat her differently than any other human being. I just want it to be known what I define gender as. The End.

Trouble is it's pretty hard for you to stand for "absolute equal rights" of transsexuals and support solidarity with them when you at the same time deny that a transwoman is even a woman

[hatzel]

how is it scientific to say that transwomen somehow arent good enough for your little prepubescent dick becuz of chromosomes?

Oh, the old adage: "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." I feel that's applicable in this thread, certainly...

[Thirsty Crow]

Well, I explained some more of my opinions in the other thread about this issue. I rather not speak of it anymore. All I know is that if I know someone is transsexual, then I will not have a romantic or sexual relationship with that person. If I don't know, then I'm fucked.
Yeah, you're inherent heterosexuality might be corrupted in this way.

To answer OP, the first assumption of course is that I like the person as a person.
Then, when speaking about post-op transsexual women (in fact, women), I'd say yes though one thing is actually bothering me in this hypothetical scenario. I'd probably feel awkward if we enaged in sexual intercourse with her being unable to climax (so, anyone who actually knows about this, provide some info on this 'cause I don't know), but if there is other kind of pleasure then great.
When it comes to pre-op transwomen, sure, why not. We'd have some experimenting to do but that's in itself interesting so...yeah.

[escapingNihilism]

also, to go further -- and this is a potentially more controversial statement -- I would not date a black woman, and almost certainly would not date an Asian woman. a Hispanic woman is more of a grey area, but if it came to a long-term relationship and having children, I would want a partner that I viewed as 'white'. I would not want to raise non-white children.

[Thirsty Crow]

also, to go further -- and this is a potentially more controversial statement -- I would not date a black woman, and almost certainly would not date an Asian woman. a Hispanic woman is more of a grey area, but if it came to a long-term relationship and having children, I would want a partner that I viewed as 'white'. I would not want to raise non-white children.
No worries this is no controversial statement.
It's a biggoted statement worthy of a ban. Nice to have had you here, bye bye now.

[escapingNihilism]

hope I don't get banned for, essentially, elucidating on a statement such as 'I am not sexually attracted to non-white women'. if I'm not supposed to speak openly about such issues here I won't, it's not terribly important to me.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It's asking for transgendered people to be possibly upset by responses here
Yes, some of the responses here seem to be reducing transpeople to the sum of our genitalia.

[Left Leanings]

Yes. I'm a bisexual male, and you fancy who you fancy.

[hatzel]

hope I don't get banned for, essentially, elucidating on a statement such as 'I am not sexually attracted to non-white women'.

You know it probably would have been marginally less offensive of you to say simple "I am not sexually attracted to non-white women," instead of taking a position which in all honesty translates to "ain't no nigga blood gon' pollute my kids!" Seriously why didn't you word it exactly like that, rather than trying to sugarcoat it?

I mean you've just gone and made a hierarchy of preference - definitely not 'black,' probably not 'Asian,' possibly not 'Hispanic' - based entirely on how nearly white these groups are. The whiter the better. What, so you can walk around with your kid and your buddies might still think they're a 'pure breed' or something, so they might still 'pass' as white?


if I'm not supposed to speak openly about such issues here I won't, it's not terribly important to me.No no, you're definitely supposed to. How else would we know about your racism? We really don't like it when people keep such secrets from us...

[escapingNihilism]

I don't wish to become embroiled here, but I will state: any 'hierarchy of (sexual) preference' I have is purely subconscious. I made no decision to not be attracted to non-white women. I was raised unambiguously white, most of my friends are and were unambigiously white. I was socialized this way. to attack me over this is to draw absolutely no line between the personal and political.

[roy]

I don't wish to become embroiled here, but I will state: any 'hierarchy of (sexual) preference' I have is purely subconscious. I made no decision to not be attracted to non-white women. I was raised unambiguously white, most of my friends are and were unambigiously white. I was socialized this way. to attack me over this is to draw absolutely no line between the personal and political.

ok, but racists aren't allowed on this board

[La Comédie Noire]

Just by the way I've been socialized no, but if I were allowed time to get used to it, maybe.

[escapingNihilism]

ok, but racists aren't allowed on this board

since it is Board policy to treat homophobia (and thus, by extension, transphobia) as an offense on par with racism, how is my statement any different from several in this thread (and its predecessor) that want nothing to do with a sexual partnership with a transgendered person?

[roy]

since it is Board policy to treat homophobia (and thus, by extension, transphobia) as an offense on par with racism, how is my statement any different from several in this thread (and its predecessor) that want nothing to do with a sexual partnership with a transgendered person?

i'm just saying you can't come out swinging with an overtly racist statement on a board that is strictly anti-racist and not expect to be attacked for it. if you exclude the possibility of having relations with someone based purely on the melanin content of their skin, that's pretty silly.

[escapingNihilism]

I don't exclude the possibility of a whole host of social relations, only the most carnal relation which I have no or very limited control over.

[roy]

that's unfortunate for you

[escapingNihilism]

perhaps, in the sense of a libidinal economy supply/demand curve, but not in essence any different from saying "I would not have a sexual relationship with an obese woman."

[hatzel]

I made no decision to not be attracted to non-white women.

Maybe you did, maybe you didn't. But you definitely made the decision to say that you wouldn't raise a kid who wasn't white. Or were you 'socialised' to think that, too? I mean you 'justified' (oh if ever a word were so misused) your decision to avoid relationships with 'non-whites' by appealing to your desire to preserve the 'whiteness' of your future child(ren), so...yeah...stop talking about 'the most carnal relation' and all that crap when what you said wasn't 'black girls aren't hot,' it was 'I refuse to have a black kid.' That's not a 'carnal relation.' Unless you're a fucking pervert...

[escapingNihilism]

to be clear what I said is 'I would not want to raise non-white children'. a few progressive (logically, not politically) reasons for this: a) I am white, have been raised as such, and it is a more or less integral part of my experience. b) I feel I would be most effective as a parent the higher degree of identification I had with my child, and if I had a non-white child, I would be without a reference point in a variety of situations they would experience.

[escapingNihilism]

ie, it's not because I would view a non-white child as inferior to me, only as 'different'.

[Left Leanings]

also, to go further -- and this is a potentially more controversial statement -- I would not date a black woman, and almost certainly would not date an Asian woman. a Hispanic woman is more of a grey area, but if it came to a long-term relationship and having children, I would want a partner that I viewed as 'white'. I would not want to raise non-white children.

Racist.

Fuck off yeah.

End of.

[roy]

ie, it's not because I would view a non-white child as inferior to me, only as 'different'.

Although you understand the 'difference' is artificial? That's the issue here

[escapingNihilism]

I understand that it has at best a dubious scientific basis, but that doesn't serve to limit its potency re: my experience. nor is the social basis of it dubious.

[roy]

well i think it's dubious as all hell, personally

[Nox]

"Would you, at least in principle/potentially, be willing to date a trans person?


No. It would be a huge, huge, huge turn off to find out they were trans. No amount of surgery can make someone born a male fully become a female, unfortunately. I'd happily be friends with them though, but sexual relations would be a no-no.

[hatzel]

a) I am white, have been raised as such, and it is a more or less integral part of my experience. b) I feel I would be most effective as a parent the higher degree of identification I had with my child, and if I had a non-white child, I would be without a reference point in a variety of situations they would experience.

Okay, let's assume that you are a white heterosexual cismale. What if your child were homosexual? What if your child were female? What if your child were trans? We're almost getting back on topic here, by the way. What if you're a butcher and your child's a baker? What if you stay at home and your child emigrates? What if you can walk and your child needs a wheelchair? I'm outlining alternative 'experiences' that your child may have, where you may lack a 'reference point' to identify with their personal reality. Is your 'whiteness' so fundamental a part of your identity that you cannot even entertain the possibility of reaching out to those outside of such a classification? Why can't you support your child irrespective of which groups they find themselves placed in, and what 'experiences' they go through? Or is it only the question of being 'white,' whilst these other possible 'characteristics,' 'experiences' and 'identities' are relegated to a position of non-importance, because they aren't so central a part of your own identity?

I mean yeah there can sometimes be challenges if white parents adopt non-white children, if said child experiences racial discrimination and the parents find it difficult to truly comprehend that, but c'mon...why can't you let your kid's mum handle that situation if you don't feel capable? Why can't you just give a hug, show your support and let mum do the talking, or ask a close family friend, or just do whatever else you might have to in order to do best by your child?

[escapingNihilism]

fair points, and I don't think I was excluding any of that, or at least I did not intend to. I never said that I would abdicate the responsibility of raising a non-white child should the situation be driven upon me by fate, only that I preferred it would not be so. (I would, additionally, prefer a non-handicapped, male, heterosexual child if I had all of my druthers, but I am well aware the Universe does not necessarily work that way.)

[Rarikou]

Voted yes. The ones that say no are still buying into the idea that transwomen aren't women. It's quite an insulting, bigoted opinion to have really.

It's like saying "Sure we should buy into the pro lgbt rhetoric, we should politically vouch for equality, but we all know they're not really women."
Well, that because they arent really.

[hatzel]

...okay...?

[Franz Fanonipants]

escapingnihilism - comrade are you an enthusiast of evolutionary psychology?

[Crux]

Follow up to the thread started by Queercommie Girl here http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-you-willing-t140203/index.html

"Would you, at least in principle/potentially, be willing to date a trans person? This includes both trans-women, trans-men and genderqueers, and it's a question for everyone: straight, homo and trans alike."

An explanation of your choice would be appreciated.
I have and I would. Somehow I do think this suprises no one though. And yes, this thread is good for weeding out some people.

[escapingNihilism]

escapingnihilism - comrade are you an enthusiast of evolutionary psychology?

I have not exposed myself to much of it, but I do find the idea of it very interesting. also I find psychotherapy/psychoanalysis to be fascinating and intense. why do you ask?

[ellipsis]

I'd be down to try it, ive only dated women who identified as such. I would be up for trying relationships with both men and transgendered people, some fun kinky sex I'd like to try too with them.

[eyeheartlenin]

This is not Hoxha's Albania, and it isn't Mao's China. Whom a person decides to date is absolutely no one else's business. Please forgive me if this is repetitious, but there is constant pressure in this discussion for people to conform. And a poster just wrote that the discussion is useful for weeding out people, which apparently means that if someone who posts is not a cheerleader for the trans movement, that person could be penalized.

That said, the only thing I fully agree with in the preceding posts is the statement from Nox,


No amount of surgery can make someone born a male fully become a female ...

[escapingNihilism]

I appreciate the attempted endorsement, but it was actually Nox who said that!

[The Jay]

I have come to the decision that I would date a trans-sexual, but do not think that I would marry one.

[eyeheartlenin]

I appreciate the attempted endorsement, but it was actually Nox who said that!

I will make a correction right now. It's probably just as well, given that the Central Control Commission is obviously gearing up to purge you with extreme prejudice, since you were brave enough to write what you actually think. :)

[Tim Cornelis]

You are basically saying, "Whoever does not have the same sexual preference as me and whoever does not follow the self-perception-based view on gender is most likely a bigot." False.

How is it a different sexual preference?

Let's say you meet your dream woman, you fall in love, date, etc. and after you've dated her for a year she tells you she used to be a man. What you have been telling us is that you would immediately break up with her, and not because of her physical appearance or your sexual attraction but because, well, it's bigotry.

A transwoman (or man) is the same as any woman-by-birth, but you would not date her... why? It makes absolutely no sense.

It's not a sexual preference as she is physically and mentally a woman.


To address your first paragraph, what I was trying to get to was that the acceptance for love of a transwoman is a sexual preference. I know it is not a sexual orientation or an extension of one. I thought that you were denying the fact that that kind of love is a sexual preference.

No it's not. I'm 100% heterosexual, I'm attracted to women, i.e. all women*, including transwomen. Why would I object to dating a woman because she was born a certain way that one would not find sexually attractive. It makes no sense.

*by "all" women I don't literally mean all women of course.

[Lee Van Cleef]

I'm a straight man and I would be quite open to the possibility of a relationship with a transwoman, post or preop. If I'm already obviously attracted to someone, it wouldn't be a deal-breaker just because they have different genetalia.

Same goes for men, really. If at some point I ever found myself attracted to another man, I think I'd go for it. The unfamiliarity might be a bit awkward at first, but it would be a learning experience if nothing else.

And in the instance of a serious relationship, this would all be a nonissue. If I had real feelings for someone, I'd say that carries more weight in my decision-making than what they've got between their legs.

EDIT: All that said, I can't help but agree with those who said this thread was a bad idea. A poll like this is begging people to display ignorance on the issue, accuse the ignorant of transphobia, fetishize "shemales," and all other manner of ridiculous comments. Though I am glad we were able to out the racist.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't wish to become embroiled here, but I will state: any 'hierarchy of (sexual) preference' I have is purely subconscious. I made no decision to not be attracted to non-white women. I was raised unambiguously white, most of my friends are and were unambigiously white. I was socialized this way. to attack me over this is to draw absolutely no line between the personal and political.

False analogy, if you're not attracted to women (or men) of a certain ethnicity because you are not attracted to that appearance, that's fine.

But if you say that you are attracted to white women, but not black women who used cosmetic surgery to become white, then it's bigotry because it is no longer about physical appearance but their race.

Hence saying you would not date a woman who was born as a man is bigotry, it has nothing to do with sexual preferences, but with their gender.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Here we got some bigoted that really pissed me off. They rather enjoy what they see than really trying to understand for what it is really is.

[Zostrianos]

Whyever not? If we're talking about just having sex with her, then what you want is a vagina. If there's a penis there too that doesn't negate the vagina, does it?

Presumably you're not homophobic, nor are you afraid of penises. Which means you're indifferent to their charms. So why is it suddenly a turn off? If you're having a threesome with another man and one women, does the presence of his genitals make you scream and run off in horror?

And if we're not talking about having sex with her - just going out on a date as the OP asks - you won't even see it. Penises are not magic.

Well I associate penises with men, and since I'm fully straight that would probably turn me off. If she was post op and really beautiful I'd probably go for it. Like I said, I've seen some who looked like they were born as women (and even a few of them so hot they could put 'real' women to shame :cool:), so if the male element was out of the way I might do it.

And I'd never have a threesome with another man, that'd be a major turn off :D

[ellipsis]

since I'm fully straight that would probably turn me off.

Keep telling yourself that. :laugh: TBH people who are the most anti-gay tend to be the gayest themselves, science proved it. Be honest with yourself.

[ellipsis]

No it's not. I'm 100% heterosexual, I'm attracted to women,

See above comment.

[Zostrianos]

Keep telling yourself that. :laugh: TBH people who are the most anti-gay tend to be the gayest themselves, science proved it. Be honest with yourself.

I'm pretty open minded, but I've never been attracted to another man, that's why I think I may be fully straight.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say: probably not. Not because there is anything wrong with them, but because there is something wrong with me, namely that I am too damn neurotic to make a relationship like that work, and I'd just end up hurting both of us. I'd like to say "yes", but that is something that I need to work towards, not a place I'm already in. I'm just not that good of a person yet.

[Tim Cornelis]

Keep telling yourself that. :laugh: TBH people who are the most anti-gay tend to be the gayest themselves, science proved it. Be honest with yourself.


See above comment.

Because I identify as heterosexual I must be anti-gay. :rolleyes:

How exactly does identifying oneself as heterosexual make one homophobic.

[Crux]

This is not Hoxha's Albania, and it isn't Mao's China. Whom a person decides to date is absolutely no one else's business. Please forgive me if this is repetitious, but there is constant pressure in this discussion for people to conform. And a poster just wrote that the discussion is useful for weeding out people, which apparently means that if someone who posts is not a cheerleader for the trans movement, that person could be penalized.

That said, the only thing I fully agree with in the preceding posts is the statement from Nox,

your post illustrates my point perfectly. What is a "cheerleader of the transmovement"? Do I get pompoms? Also as per usual this thread is dominated by straight men, let me just tell you not all transpeople people are open about being trans, for reasons you illustrate quite well. So for all you know you might've dated a transwoman already, or at least might at some time in the future. The main point is though, transwomen are women, transmen are men. (and some genderqueers are ridicolously attractive). And transphobia and borderline transphobia is rightfully penalized.

[Zostrianos]

I'd seen a report a few years ago where neurologists scanned the brains of transgendered individuals, and apparently their brains are more like those of the opposite sex than that they were born into - which confirms what trans people say about being one gender in another gender's body.


(and some genderqueers are ridicolously attractive)

Seriously, it's unbelievable

[Crux]

You may think your think that viewing transwomen as not "real women" is "natural", "common sense" and maybe even "your own opinion". The truth is though that you are merely echoing societies prejudices. This is something you have been taught. And thus something that can be overcome. I too once held certain almost reflexive prejudices towards transpeople along the same lines you do. Both knowing transpeople personally and having spent many years in the socialist movement taught me better. Casual transphobia can be overcome just like casual racism and sexism. So really you should be thanking me.

[Zostrianos]

A friend of mine used to feel that people were exactly what they were born - until he met a trans woman, and he immediately changed his mind

[Lobotomy]

also, to go further -- and this is a potentially more controversial statement -- I would not date a black woman, and almost certainly would not date an Asian woman. a Hispanic woman is more of a grey area, but if it came to a long-term relationship and having children, I would want a partner that I viewed as 'white'. I would not want to raise non-white children.

why did you even bring this bullshit into the conversation anyway? It literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[Franz Fanonipants]

why did you even bring this bullshit into the conversation anyway? It literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

i'm pretty sure dude might be like 14

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

This is not Hoxha's Albania, and it isn't Mao's China. Whom a person decides to date is absolutely no one else's business. Please forgive me if this is repetitious, but there is constant pressure in this discussion for people to conform. And a poster just wrote that the discussion is useful for weeding out people, which apparently means that if someone who posts is not a cheerleader for the trans movement, that person could be penalized.

when i read this i was all like... that's a fair point, i suppose he may be onto something

but then i read the rest...


No amount of surgery can make someone born a male fully become a female ...

and i was like
oh another cis sexist shitbag, i shouldve seen this coming.

there are people with female genitalia who are men. there are people with female genitalia who are nonbinary. there are people with dicks who are women. big veiny throbbing dicks. deal with it assholes.

[escapingNihilism]

why did you even bring this bullshit into the conversation anyway? It literally has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

again, it is Board policy to treat homophobia (and, by extension, transphobia) as an offense on par with racism. as such I commented on a topic parallel, if not necessarily progressive, to the discussion.

as my age has been raised here I will clear the air and mention that I am 21.

[Franz Fanonipants]

as my age has been raised here I will clear the air and mention that I am 21.

a dumb racist 21 year old at that

[escapingNihilism]

a dumb racist 21 year old at that



I appreciate your contribution, you've achieved a lot!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

to derail this some more...

as a leftist (allegedly) dont you think you have like a duty to question your white privilege, the circumstances in which you were raised and the construct of race?

[hatzel]

again, it is Board policy to treat homophobia (and, by extension, transphobia) as an offense on par with racism. as such I commented on a topic parallel, if not necessarily progressive, to the discussion.

But did you not stop to think that coming into a thread that isn't about race in order to make controversial (by your own admission) comments about race might...I dunno...make you seem like maybe you're a bit of a racist or something?

[Ostrinski]

I think some people in this thread definitely qualify as ban material. Wish CotR would come and go all La Cabana on your asses, bigoted shitheads

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

i kinda wanna get to the bottom of this and see whether this guy just has no social awareness at all, is just simply not physically attracted to woc or if he's an actual racist

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I think I should clarify.

I am not anti-transgender just like I am not homophobic. But, just like I am not homosexual and don't sleep with men, I have a preference to not sleep with transgender people. This in no way means you hate transgender people, it is just your preference to not sleep with them.

Overall, I am getting sick of threads like this. They are WAY too personal and give bigots a place to rant on.

[Ostrinski]

I think I should clarify.

I am not anti-transgender just like I am not homophobic. But, just like I am not homosexual and don't sleep with men, I have a preference to not sleep with transgender people. This in no way means you hate transgender people, it is just your preference to not sleep with them.But you're essentially just singling out a whole group of women so


Overall, I am getting sick of threads like this. They are WAY too personal and give bigots a place to rant on.Actually, like hatzel said, it gives bigots a chance to show themselves, something we very much do want. It's not like we want them polluting the place

[Tim Cornelis]

I think I should clarify.

I am not anti-transgender just like I am not homophobic. But, just like I am not homosexual and don't sleep with men, I have a preference to not sleep with transgender people. This in no way means you hate transgender people, it is just your preference to not sleep with them.

Overall, I am getting sick of threads like this. They are WAY too personal and give bigots a place to rant on.

But why? It makes absolutely no sense.

You are not sexually attracted to men, therefore you don't sleep with men. Fine.
You are sexually attracted to women, but you refuse to sleep with them if they happened to be born a man. They are women, you are sexually attracted to them, you do think they are beautiful, yet you refuse to date them simply because they are transwomen!

It is literally no different than saying you are attracted to white women, but you would refuse to date a white woman because she was born black and underwent cosmetic surgery to look white. It's stupid. You can be not attracted to a certain ethncity, that's okey, but she looks white now, and therefore you find her attractive. It is stupid to judge people on how they used to look, and not how they look now, don't you agree?

There is no difference. "Yeah, I'm attracted to women, but not this one because she was not born one." "Yeah, I'm attracted to Asians, but not this one because she was not born one." Where is sense in this?

Or another analogy, a woman has underwent cosmetic surgery and she turned from an ugly woman to the most beautiful woman you ever saw. You were not attracted to her at all, but now you are. It's like saying "well, you were born a certain way I didn't find attractive [e.g. man or ugly woman], and even though you are attractive now , I still won't date you because you were born a way I find unattractive".

[I]It makes no sense. You are attracted to someone on the basis of their appearance, and transwomen have the appearance of any other woman.

She is a woman now, and you are attracted to her? What is making you stop dating her? I just don't get it! Please explain.

-----------------

Here, do this experiment:

http://cdn-images.hollywood.com/cms/294x255/5657199.jpg

^This is Megan Fox, she is beautiful and attractive. Then there was a guy who underwent a cosmetic surgery and was "modeled" after her:

http://cdn-images.hollywood.com/cms/294x255/5657199.jpg

This transwoman is identical to Megan Fox, but you still refuse to date her, not on the basis of sexual preference of attractiveness, but on the mere fact she is a transwoman!

WHY?

It makes no sens to me.

There is no other way to describe this than transphobia. If you refuse to date someone not because you are not sexually attracted to someone, not because of their appearance, and not because of their personality, but solely because they were born in the wrong body is simply reinforcing the same social stigma of transphobia.

[OHumanista]

Yep, both partial and full (sex change) transwomen.

[Ostrinski]

Goti ftw

[Rarikou]

You could say i'm not attracted to transgender people in the same way i'm not attracted to people who have had plastic surgery. It is quite simply impossible with current technology to realistically create female traits such as large breasts, a curved body, a vagina capable of orgasm and reproduction etc.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I think I should clarify.

I am not anti-transgender just like I am not homophobic. But, just like I am not homosexual and don't sleep with men, I have a preference to not sleep with transgender people. This in no way means you hate transgender people, it is just your preference to not sleep with them.

Overall, I am getting sick of threads like this. They are WAY too personal and give bigots a place to rant on.

Stop trying to explain yourself, comrade. These reverse bigots want to make you feel guilty for not fucking who they want you to fuck. I totally agree with you. I am tried of this uber-sensitive bullshit propaganda. I think I am able to make my own relationship decisions without having people call me a bigot for it. Also, these threads are bullshit. They turn into witch hunts and places for people to harass other users simply because they have different opinions and preferences. I like how they use words like "bigot" and "conservative," as if I give two fucks about their inability to have a real conversation where the only idea isn't, "They are women and if don't want to have sex with them, you are a bigot!!!!!"

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

But I must say that, while guys did not really change my opinion, some of your posts did open my eyes to the differences between gender and sex, something that I will take into account.

[Ele'ill]

If you fell in love with say, a transwoman, would you date her?

[Tim Cornelis]

Stop trying to explain yourself, comrade. These reverse bigots want to make you feel guilty for not fucking who they want you to fuck.

It's not about that, it's the reasons why. If someone told me he doesn't date African women because he isn't attracted to the physical appearance of African women (which is quite common), it's okey.

But saying you wouldn't date an African woman because they are African it's bigotry.


I totally agree with you. I am tried of this uber-sensitive bullshit propaganda. I think I am able to make my own relationship decisions without having people call me a bigot for it. Also, these threads are bullshit. They turn into witch hunts and places for people to harass other users simply because they have different opinions and preferences. I like how they use words like "bigot" and "conservative," as if I give two fucks about their inability to have a real conversation where the only idea isn't,

Nice strawman.


"They are women and if don't want to have sex with them, you are a bigot!!!!!"

More like, you are attracted to a woman, but you refuse to date her because of her past looks. Why?

The answer to "why?" is "because." It makes no sense to not date someone you find attractive and like simply and solely because they are transgender, it is indeed transphobic.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Oh, and I noticed a racist post a few pages back. I do not defend that and find it offensive. Yet, my posts and those of most people who said no are purposely meant to not be offensive and I know that I myself went to great lengths to explain myself and even changed my opinions slightly as I became more enlightened (I did not change them that much, but what can you ask for).

[hatzel]

Some threads I may even dare to say I like.

You see, I'm far too used to people seeing the whole observant Jew thinggg I've got going on here and automatically assuming this means I must be some hardcore anti-queer anti-trans anti-sex etc. butthead puritan reactionary guy - is that not axiomatic, an inevitability of sorts? In fact a few of the people in this thread have been pretty vocal elsewhere on the boards with their uncompromising stance - by which I mean baseless accusations and generalisations - concerning such matters. So I derive a strange pleasure - perhaps it's even the slightest suggestion of recompense? - from looking over threads like this and shuddering, wondering how exactly people can self-justify some of their positions, when 'even' I - the very bastion of reaction, supposedly, that being 'inherent' to my 'nature' - find them wholly indefensible...

Oh yeah. It's the simple things in life...the simple pleasures...another such pleasure, of course, being the company of a loving transsexual, the moment of pure embrace, a certain amorous proximity untainted by any prejudice or concern...

[escapingNihilism]

nobody here is a 'bastion of reaction'. we post on a fucking revolutionary leftist Board. stop the self-righteous shit. but enjoy the human embrace nonetheless.

[JustMovement]

Some threads I may even dare to say I like.

You see, I'm far too used to people seeing the whole observant Jew thinggg I've got going on here and automatically assuming this means I must be some hardcore anti-queer anti-trans anti-sex etc. butthead puritan reactionary guy - is that not axiomatic, an inevitability of sorts? In fact a few of the people in this thread have been pretty vocal elsewhere on the boards with their uncompromising stance - by which I mean baseless accusations and generalisations - concerning such matters. So I derive a strange pleasure - perhaps it's even the slightest suggestion of recompense? - from looking over threads like this and shuddering, wondering how exactly people can self-justify some of their positions, when 'even' I - the very bastion of reaction, supposedly, that being 'inherent' to my 'nature' - find them wholly indefensible...

Oh yeah. It's the simple things in life...the simple pleasures...another such pleasure, of course, being the company of a loving transsexual, the moment of pure embrace, a certain amorous proximity untainted by any prejudice or concern...
You sure don't display that trait so often ascribed to religious people, self righteousness... :rolleyes:

[Crux]

If you fell in love with say, a transwoman, would you date her?
Haha. Of course not, I would casually glance at her from across the room, finish my drink and run out of there filled with regret.

[JustMovement]

I would not rule out dating anyone from the start, love is love.

Having said that, I think that it is possible to make a meaningful distinction between someone born their sex and someone that changed to it. It has nothing to do with exterior physical appearance, and I don't doubt a transsexual could be stunningly beautiful. However we are socialised into our gender from a young age.

Also the mind is not some removed entity floating above our body. We are embodied beings. The inner workings of our body, no matter what they look like, crucially determine how we live in the world. There are physical differences between genders, that relate to how we fundamentally interact with the world.

[hatzel]

You sure don't display that trait so often ascribed to religious people, self righteousness... :rolleyes:

I think you'll find I've earnt the right to be by not being a big ol' transphobe heh lulz!!!

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I think you'll find I've earnt the right to be by not being a big ol' transphobe heh lulz!!!

You're not a transphobe, but that does not mean you have to call everyone else a transphobe.

[hatzel]

You're not a transphobe, but that does not mean you have to call everyone else a transphobe.

Good job I didn't, then, isn't it? In fact...I don't remember ever calling anybody a transphobe, though perhaps my memory is deceiving me...

[Panda Tse Tung]

I would like children, so probably not. Still filled in 'i'm not sure' cause i'm not sure what is understood as dating here.

[Ele'ill]

the language used in the question of this poll is pretty clear 'potentially willing to'

[Panda Tse Tung]

I mean what is understood as dating, you can date just for fun as well. In which case it wont matter, if it's a search for a serious life-partner it would matter.

[Kronsteen]

since I'm fully straight that would probably turn me off.

Being a straight male means being attracted to women and their bits, and not being attracted to men and their bits.

But there's nothing about not finding something attractive that entails finding it repulsive. Being not-turned-on is quite different from being turned off.

So the sight of a penis should leave you indifferent. But you're saying you'd be actually repulsed. That's not heterosexuality. That's something else. You're obviously not a homophobe, but maybe it's a little fragment of residual homophobia that's still hanging around in a corner of your psyche.

Presumably you're not repulsed from penises when they appear in straight porn, accompanied by women?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I prefer Asians and redheads myself :D....
Same here. :D

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I'm not really sure.

Like if the trans-woman hadn't had surgery or didn't want to then perhaps I might be open to it; I'd be more inclined to say no, as I'm not into women, even if they have the right parts, as I'm into men.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

For me it really depends, while the sexual part of the relationship would be...intresting, as long as the person has enough in common with me I wouldn't mind it, after all who am I to complain?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I really don't have to explain myself on matters that are so personal to me, and to claim that I am a bigot because I am not attracted to transgender individuals is:

1. Extremely offensive
2. Drawing conclusions based on little facts
3. Annoying as hell

Just because I don't agree with you on this issue does not mean that I deserve to be subject to such immature, inappropriate, and aggressive responses. This will be my last post on this thread. I am not singling anybody out in this response and I am not angry with the people who challenged my response. I am posting this last response, and then getting out of this specific thread so I am not drawn into an argument I DO NOT IN ANY WAY WANT TO BE APART OF.

Thank you

[Zostrianos]

Being a straight male means being attracted to women and their bits, and not being attracted to men and their bits.
But there's nothing about not finding something attractive that entails finding it repulsive. Being not-turned-on is quite different from being turned off.
So the sight of a penis should leave you indifferent. But you're saying you'd be actually repulsed. That's not heterosexuality. That's something else. You're obviously not a homophobe, but maybe it's a little fragment of residual homophobia that's still hanging around in a corner of your psyche.


I don't know, it's one of those things I'd have to experience to know how I'd react. It's just I associate penises with men and seeing one on a partner would be weird. I might accept it eventually, but I can't say for sure.

As for the porn I (very rarely) watch, there are no men in it, so it's a non-issue :D

[eyeheartlenin]

your post illustrates my point perfectly. What is a "cheerleader of the transmovement"? Do I get pompoms? Also as per usual this thread is dominated by straight men, let me just tell you not all transpeople people are open about being trans, for reasons you illustrate quite well. So for all you know you might've dated a transwoman already, or at least might at some time in the future. The main point is though, transwomen are women, transmen are men. (and some genderqueers are ridicolously attractive). And transphobia and borderline transphobia is rightfully penalized.

In response to this attack on me:

I am not a straight man.
I do not date women.
I have a grand total of two prior posts in this thread of some 140 posts, so I am not trying to dominate anything.
And my contribution to this thread has been to insist that people have the right to make their most intimate decisions by and for themselves, for whatever reason they please. So if I am guilty of anything, it is opposition to anyone bullying others into conformity or silence.
And if that stance gets me thrown off revleft, so be it.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Well, I certainly would not date the trans people I know. They are terrible people that I do not enjoy being with.
But yeah, if I met one and we hit it off I'd totally "hit it off".

[God]

Yes, of course.

[Crux]

In response to this attack on me:

I am not a straight man.
I do not date women.
I have a grand total of two prior posts in this thread of some 140 posts, so I am not trying to dominate anything.
And my contribution to this thread has been to insist that people have the right to make their most intimate decisions by and for themselves, for whatever reason they please. So if I am guilty of anything, it is opposition to anyone bullying others into conformity or silence.
And if that stance gets me thrown off revleft, so be it.

how brave of you, martyr. How about responding to what I said instead.

[Devrim]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.

People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

Devrim

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think this topic brings up an interesting question about sexual orientation. Is one attracted to a gender (for example, women) or to body parts (for example, biologically female genitalia)?

[kashkin]

IMO, people are attracted to sex (i.e. parts and body structure, etc) and not gender. I can't say I have studies to back me up (there might be), but straight/bisexual men can be attracted to women with 'boyish' characteristics and vice versa.

[Tim Cornelis]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.

People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

Devrim

You're forgetting one thing: they are discriminating.

If I say: "I think that woman of that particular racial or ethnic background is attractive, but I will not date her because of their race/ethnicity." It's discrimination.

Saying you refuse to date a transwoman, beforehand, is not about not finding that person unattractive, but about that person being a transwoman, i.e. discrimination.

It's simply the way it is.

[OHumanista]

I think this topic brings up an interesting question about sexual orientation. Is one attracted to a gender (for example, women) or to body parts (for example, biologically female genitalia)?

I think sometimes parts and forms may play a greater role than gender alone. At least when speaking of my own sexuality.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.

People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

Devrim

this is all fair enough but youre overlooking the fact that some but not all of the outspoken defenders of their choice to not date trans people have actually been bigots. folks who claim that trans women arent women and so on.

[MotherCossack]

this is weird!
am i allowed to say.....
ME NO LIKEE!!!!!!!!!
does that make me a bigot or something?
hell no!
that aint my cuppa tea!
and anyway how does it work?
i like that we are talking about it though... that is cool.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.

People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

Devrim

The funny thing is that they think that them calling some of us bigots is going to change our minds. Nope. I have not changed my sexual or relationship preferences one bit. I will still never, ever be able to love a transwoman, nor will I change my "conservative":rolleyes: views on gender and sex beyond the acknowledgement of the differences between the two. I just love to come back to this thread to see how the morally superior crusaders for trans-rights are harassing new people.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The funny thing is that they think that them calling some of us bigots is going to change our minds. Nope. I have not changed my sexual or relationship preferences one bit. I will still never, ever be able to love a transwoman, nor will I change my "conservative":rolleyes: views on gender and sex beyond the acknowledgement of the differences between the two. I just love to come back to this thread to see how the morally superior crusaders for trans-rights are harassing new people.

Bigots whining about being called bigots. :rolleyes:

[Devrim]

this is all fair enough but youre overlooking the fact that some but not all of the outspoken defenders of their choice to not date trans people have actually been bigots. folks who claim that trans women arent women and so on.

Some of them may well have been bigots. I haven't read all of the thread. However, to say that you don't think a transwoman, or transman isn't a woman or a man is not in itself bigoted. Advocating discrimination against them, or actually discriminating against them is on that basis is.


You're forgetting one thing: they are discriminating.

Yes, but in one sense of the word everybody 'discriminates' in their choice of potential partners for many reasons. If we didn't everybody would find everybody else equally sexually attractive, which they clearly don't.


Saying you refuse to date a transwoman, beforehand, is not about not finding that person unattractive, but about that person being a transwoman, i.e. discrimination.

There are lots of reasons why people might not want to do this. Some of the reason may be because people are bigots. I don't think that all of them mean that people are though.

Devrim

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

However, to say that you don't think a transwoman, or transman isn't a woman or a man is not in itself bigoted.

yes it fucking is

[Devrim]

The funny thing is that they think that them calling some of us bigots is going to change our minds. Nope. I have not changed my sexual or relationship preferences one bit. I will still never, ever be able to love a transwoman, nor will I change my "conservative":rolleyes: views on gender and sex beyond the acknowledgement of the differences between the two. I just love to come back to this thread to see how the morally superior crusaders for trans-rights are harassing new people.

I'd say never say never. There are lots of things that I thought I would never do in my life that I have ended up doing.

Of course, I don't think that this is in anyway going to change your mind. As I said I think it is just setting people up to call them names.

That doesn't mean that a decent discussion on sex and gender is impossible. I just don't think that this thread is even attempting to make one.

Devrim

[Devrim]

yes it fucking is

Well I am sure you have managed to convince everybody who previously believed that that you are right with that stunningly erudite argument.

Devrim

[gorillafuck]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.you are easily shocked.


People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

Devrimyou don't find anything remotely transphobic about seeing someone who you would date but changing that opinion upon finding out that they used to be a different sex?:confused:

I don't think someone is a bad person for saying no. but it stems from a transphobic mentality, which sadly a lot of people can't help due to social conditioning (I honestly can't say for myself, because I have never been in the situation).

[Vapaus]

Well, one can't choose who one is attracted to...but if you find someone attractive and yet won't date them due to their being trans, how could that be considered anything other than bigotry? :confused:

Anyway, I think that sort of answers my own view on this issue as well (I voted yes in the poll)...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Comrade Commistar, you don't think transpeople should be discriminated against, but yet you do discriminate against us. In fact, earlier you referred to a transman as "a woman" and "her."

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

In fact, earlier you referred to a transman as "a woman" and "her."

No, you are incorrect. Actually read what I write. I was talking about a transwoman.

[Ostrinski]

Yes, but in one sense of the word everybody 'discriminates' in their choice of potential partners for many reasons. If we didn't everybody would find everybody else equally sexually attractive, which they clearly don't.That is completely false. We choose our sexual and romantic partners based on who we are attracted to on an individual basis. To single out a whole group of women or men has nothing to do with individuality. Even if you have a sexual attraction to a person and are emotionally compatible with them, and you still refuse to date them because of a structural issue such as ethnicity, former sex, whatever, you are by definition bigoted.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No, you are incorrect. Actually read what I write. I was talking about a transwoman.
This is what you said here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2416509&postcount=190): "I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants."

Are you still going to claim you weren't talking about a transman or you weren't deliberately misgendering him?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

This is what you said here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2416509&postcount=190): "I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants."

Are you still going to claim you weren't talking about a transman or you weren't deliberately misgendering him?

If a man becomes a woman, isn't that a transwoman? I was saying that she (I said "she" to be respectful) should be called whatever she wants. Obviously, I am not a master at this whole transsexual thing, so what is the correct term for such a person?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If a man becomes a woman, isn't that a transwoman?
Yes. But you were talking about someone going from female to male in that quote. Read it again.

"I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants."

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Yes. But you were talking about someone going from female to male in that quote. Read it again.

"I really do not personally care if a woman calls herself a man and gets a penis. To me personally, that person is still a woman, even though she should have the right to be 100% equal and be legally considered whatever she wants."

Then that was a BIG typo. I did not mean it that way at all.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Then that was a BIG typo. I did not mean it that way at all.
Fair enough.

[Ostrinski]

And this isn't enforced political correctness? Seriously?I don't think identifying the discriminatory nature of a statement qualifies as PC.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

And this isn't enforced political correctness? Seriously?
Now you sound like the typical American conservative who whines about "PC" when their bigotry is criticized.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

whenever i hear whining about "enforced political correctness" it is but a matter of time before someone asks why they cant have a white entertainment television and a white history month

[Luís Henrique]

I think that this is a pretty shocking thread that is to a large extent being used to bully people who don't agree with a certain line on trans-gender issues.

People are attracted to who they are attracted to, for whatever reason, people who used to be members of a different sex, are not, by definition, bigots.

A bigot is somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against a particular group, not somebody who chooses not to have sex with a member of a particular group.

To me it seems like this thread is setting people up (by asking the question), then they can be knocked down and people can throw insults at them.

I can't imagine that it is very nice for the people it is being done to, nor would I imagine are some of the responses that these people have come out with when harried particularly nice for some trans people to read.

I hope those of you running the inquisition feel suitably morally superior now though.

This.

Now, this subject is evidently not "political". It should therefore be in the non-political forums, not in the Discrimination forum.

Luís Henrique

[Devrim]

That is completely false. We choose our sexual and romantic partners based on who we are attracted to on an individual basis. To single out a whole group of women or men has nothing to do with individuality. Even if you have a sexual attraction to a person and are emotionally compatible with them, and you still refuse to date them because of a structural issue such as ethnicity, former sex, whatever, you are by definition bigoted.

I wouldn't have a relationship* with somebody who believed in God. I don't think that means that I am bigoted against Muslims, or Christians.


Well, one can't choose who one is attracted to...but if you find someone attractive and yet won't date them due to their being trans, how could that be considered anything other than bigotry? :confused:

As I said above, I wouldn't go out with a Muslim due to her being a Muslim. Would you consider that to be bigoted?


you don't find anything remotely transphobic about seeing someone who you would date but changing that opinion upon finding out that they used to be a different sex?:confused:

I don't think someone is a bad person for saying no. but it stems from a transphobic mentality, which sadly a lot of people can't help due to social conditioning (I honestly can't say for myself, because I have never been in the situation).

It depends what the word 'transphobic' means. Does it mean, as it linguistic implies somebody who has some sort of fear of trans people, or does it mean somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against trans people? They are not the same thing at all. If we take the term 'homophobia', I know many people who are quite freaked out by the idea of homosexual sex who wouldn't discriminate or advocate discrimination against homosexuals. Do you think that they are homophobic?

As you say a lot of this is quite probably something that is 'due to social conditioning', and, in my opinion, is something that probably has much more effect on young men for various reasons, who coincidentally make up a large proportion of posters on this board.

Now, you say that you 'don't think that someone is a bad person for saying no', but it seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are shouting 'bigot' at them, which sort of implies that they think they are 'bad people'.

To not chose to go out with anybody, from which ever group, doesn't necessarily mean you are a bigot.

Devrim

*I am not quite 100% sure what the term 'date' means.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It depends what the word 'transphobic' means.
It can mean general anti-trans sentiment up to outright hatred of transpeople.

[Luís Henrique]

Well, one can't choose who one is attracted to...but if you find someone attractive and yet won't date them due to their being trans, how could that be considered anything other than bigotry? :confused:

This assumes that sexual attraction is a simple thing, that is forever established on first sight. As if you have never been attracted to someone until they open their mouths and reveal their ideas or tastes (or even tone of voice).

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

whenever i hear whining about "enforced political correctness" it is but a matter of time before someone asks why they cant have a white entertainment television and a white history month

Never heard anyone speal such ideas out of the internet, not even people who complain about political correctness. But then the ways in which Brazilians express their racism is much different from the way Americans do it.

Luís Henrique

[Ele'ill]

This assumes that sexual attraction is a simple thing, that is forever established on first sight. As if you have never been attracted to someone until they open their mouths and reveal their ideas or tastes (or even tone of voice).

Luís Henrique

What about a trans person with a voice you like and the same ideas or tastes as you

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Never heard anyone speal such ideas out of the internet, not even people who complain about political correctness. But then the ways in which Brazilians express their racism is much different from the way Americans do it.

Luís Henrique

complaining about political correctness is a popular method among both, i have found

[Crux]

I wouldn't have a relationship* with somebody who believed in God. I don't think that means that I am bigoted against Muslims, or Christians.



As I said above, I wouldn't go out with a Muslim due to her being a Muslim. Would you consider that to be bigoted?



It depends what the word 'transphobic' means. Does it mean, as it linguistic implies somebody who has some sort of fear of trans people, or does it mean somebody who discriminates, or advocates discrimination against trans people? They are not the same thing at all. If we take the term 'homophobia', I know many people who are quite freaked out by the idea of homosexual sex who wouldn't discriminate or advocate discrimination against homosexuals. Do you think that they are homophobic?

As you say a lot of this is quite probably something that is 'due to social conditioning', and, in my opinion, is something that probably has much more effect on young men for various reasons, who coincidentally make up a large proportion of posters on this board.

Now, you say that you 'don't think that someone is a bad person for saying no', but it seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are shouting 'bigot' at them, which sort of implies that they think they are 'bad people'.

To not chose to go out with anybody, from which ever group, doesn't necessarily mean you are a bigot.

Devrim

*I am not quite 100% sure what the term 'date' means.
but could you be with someone who was brought up as a muslim? See the reason I ask is because what I gather some people are saying, commistar for instance, is that they could never date a transperson, primarily because of what gender they were brought up as. To me this is comparable to saying "I could never date someone from the middle east, because I don't date muslims."

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

but could you be with someone who was brought up as a muslim? See the reason I ask is because what I gather some people are saying, commistar for instance, is that they could never date a transperson, primarily because of what gender they were brought up as. To me this is comparable to saying "I could never date someone from the middle east, because I don't date muslims."

That's cute. I'm still not going to change my mind. I'll have a relationship with whoever I fucking please and I reject whoever I fucking please. Do you have a problem with that? If you do, I don't care. It's my "heart," it's my penis. Deal with it.

[Manic Impressive]

I'm already regretting posting in this thread but here it goes.

I wouldn't date a trans woman because of the social stigma attached to it. Anyone who does is a braver person than me. I might have once had sex with a transwoman. I say might because I don't actually know I couldn't tell any difference possibly partly because I was shit faced, but there were some things which made me unsure. My friends were convinced that she was and proceeded to severely take the piss and also to tell anyone and everyone we knew who also took the piss. So yeah it's selfish as fuck and I'm a coward but there you go, my life is shitty enough already I don't need more social alienation and whispers behind my back.

please don't ban me

[Kronsteen]

I'll have a relationship with whoever I fucking please and I reject whoever I fucking please.

The question is not whether you have the right to make a choice. It's whether you're making the choice out of prejudice.

This is the point you're trying to evade.

[Kronsteen]

I wouldn't date a trans woman because of the social stigma attached to it.

What social stigma is attached to your politics? And why can you overcome that stigma but not this one?

[Manic Impressive]

no I don't find any social stigma attached to my politics at all. The usual reactions are either curiosity or boredom.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

"Would I date a Trans person?"

Well, no. When I date a person I am expecting that person to be a potential life partner (hence why you date them). And for me a big part of life is sex... a certain kid of sex as a gay man (:blushing:). A Transperson would not be able to satisfy that sexual need (when I say satisfy I mean physically satisfy).

So, maybe when I am older and less inclined to sexual acts I could date one such person, but until than, I would have to abstain. Such doesn't mean that I do not find some Transmen attractive, however (because I have seen many cute ones; on the media, not in my own little small town).

[Crux]

That's cute. I'm still not going to change my mind. I'll have a relationship with whoever I fucking please and I reject whoever I fucking please. Do you have a problem with that? If you do, I don't care. It's my "heart," it's my penis. Deal with it.
no, this, this is cute. Heterosexual male indignation. And you presuppose the person you might theoretically be dating will tell you straight away that they are trans? What if you were to find out later? Perhaps the dates go really well and you start getting serious and your would be girlfriend decides to tell you something deeply personal, namely that they are trans?

[Yuppie Grinder]

I find people who have had a lot of plastic surgery unattractive.

[Manic Impressive]

I just want to add to add a little bit to what I already said.

I worked with a Transwoman once who totally altered my ignorant and pejudiced opinions. Unfortunately she hid it from everyone for years and lived life as a hetero man. She had a wife and kids and was even in the army for part of her life. Now that was a problem for her because she was in her 40's before she finally came out and gender reassignment is extremely difficult the older you get. It also didn't help that she was 6'4 and had a very deep voice. So she came out and said she was a woman and the bosses had to make special arrangements for her like a separate changing room and stuff like that as the women wouldn't allow her to be in their changing room and she didn't want to be in the male changing room. All the stuff like this caused her a serious amount of grief, anyone who is seen to get special treatment in a workplace will suffer some form of alienation. Apart from all the small things like that I can't even begin to explain some of the comments she got from customers and the hushed whispers of some of her colleagues especially as she wore a female uniform which was a low cut dress with a huge split running up the leg. I witnessed first hand the strength and mental fortitude she had, to be able put up with other people's shit every day. It was literally amazing and inspiring. I'm sure some queer comrades will relate to the strength it must take to live like that in this society. But I mean no offence when I say it's so much easier to be out and gay than it is to be out and trans, at least in our little corner of the world. The reason I've told this story is because this woman who I didn't see as a woman at first and who I had mocked before I'd even met her, completely changed my perspective on the matter, she is one of my all time hero's and I personally don't have even one fraction of the strength that she had. And I figure that to be a partner of someone like that you've got to be at least half as strong as you will also catch all the bull shit society has to throw at you and you have to be there to support them when they're feeling low, I've had a tiny taste of what that might be like because I maybe slept with a transwoman once although I might not have and I know I wouldn't be able to take it. It's a massive responsibility and for better or worse I'm the sort of guy who'll dump a girl for having an annoying laugh or for being thick or for any host of minute reasons, I'm really not one for long relationships. So for me to date a transwoman would probably do her more harm than good. I don't think I'd ever be able to be strong enough to be that supportive.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

so many people already assume wrongly that im gay. so if i started dating a trans woman and assholes were like "eh, kinda gay, man" id just be like, "you sawr it coming init" and theyd be all like "yeah"

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

i guess manic's story was better

[Luís Henrique]

What about a trans person with a voice you like and the same ideas or tastes as you

I have personally met one post-op transwoman that I am aware of. They are not as common in real life as in revleft, apparently, or they do not tend to frequent the same places that I do (most of whose existence I am aware of belong to a completely different social environment).

Regardless.

I imagine if what happened to the protagonist of "Switch" would happen to me, and I would one day wake up to find my body transformed into Ellen Barkin's. I think I would be a gender-atypical female, disliking things such as lipstick or high heels, and I would quite probably be a lesbian. But one thing I don't think I would feel would be an urgent necessity to change my body back into a masculine one. And so I miss the psychology of someone who feels, or has felt, exactly that, and don't find it, in principle at least, attractive. It doesn't mean that I think they don't deserve the change they seek for, or that I think that they are less capable than anyone else, or that I would not, to put it into Nixonian terms, buy a used car from one of them.

But equal rights refer to public spaces, and my bed isn't one of those. No one is entitled to a place there, and the reasons why some get there and others don't are strictly personal; I may or may not talk about those reasons, but they are not open to discussion in a political sence.

I also find this tread disrespectful to transpeople, as it seems to be based on the idea that someone is only fully accepted and welcome if everybody else is willing to consider them as possible sexual partners. That is false and demeaning. There are people I respect a lot, but would never consider having sex with. And as all of us should be aware, lots of people, especially lots of men, do have sex, even regularly, with people they utterly disrespect. You can just remember how many slaveholders have had sex with their human property, to see the issue in the correct light.

Luís Henrique

[Mettalian]

Kind of a shocking thread, response-wise, especially with the whole 'guy not wanting non-white kids' thing. Fucking weird. On topic, I would certainly date a transwoman, it's not an issue to me. Being a heterosexual male, I'm attracted to women, and a transwoman is a woman. If she and I were good for one another and we found each other attractive, it wouldn't matter if she used to have a dick.

[Luís Henrique]

I think this topic brings up an interesting question about sexual orientation. Is one attracted to a gender (for example, women) or to body parts (for example, biologically female genitalia)?

I am attracted to women, but not to all women. They don't have to be gender typical (and indeed I am more attracted to tomboys than to stereotypically "feminine" women). Some of their body parts are particularly attractive to me (vagina, clit, breasts, hands, feet, buttocks, thighs, mouth, ears, neck, eyes... well, perhaps everything except knees and elbows). But they are only attractive in the context of the whole body; and just like the "right" features about them can be extremely attractive, the "wrong" ones can be repulsive. And there are physical characteristics that are not exactly body parts, but are important too: voice, breath, smell, facial expression, gestures, the way they walk. And then there are psychological and social characteristics: vocabulary, independence, assertiveness, critical thought, humour, irony, etc. It is really difficult to analyse; sometimes the lack of some of these characteristics can be compensated by an abundance of other of them, sometimes it cannot. It is quite an "emergent" quality, I think.

I don't think I am attracted to "gender", and I don't think "women" are a "gender", but I don't think it is exact to say that I am attracted to "body parts" in themselves either.

Luís Henrique

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I imagine if what happened to the protagonist of "Switch" would happen to me, and I would one day wake up to find my body transformed into Ellen Barkin's. I think I would be a gender-atypical female, disliking things such as lipstick or high heels, and I would quite probably be a lesbian. But one thing I don't think I would feel would be an urgent necessity to change my body back into a masculine one. And so I miss the psychology of someone who feels, or has felt, exactly that, and don't find it, in principle at least, attractive

mod edit- removed picture

it's easy to say that you wouldnt feel compelled to change your body physically because you are a cisgender man. i find it pretty damn disturbing for you to judge people the way you have simply because you do not and cannot experience what they have. furthermore, not all trans people undergo body modification.


I also find this tread disrespectful to transpeople, as it seems to be based on the idea that someone is only fully accepted and welcome if everybody else is willing to consider them as possible sexual partners. That is false and demeaning. There are people I respect a lot, but would never consider having sex with. And as all of us should be aware, lots of people, especially lots of men, do have sex, even regularly, with people they utterly disrespect. You can just remember how many slaveholders have had sex with their human property, to see the issue in the correct light.a good point. i see this thread as an opportunity, perhaps clumsily posited, to discuss important issues and address the missconception that trans people cannot be men and women.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

But equal rights refer to public spaces, and my bed isn't one of those. No one is entitled to a place there, and the reasons why some get there and others don't are strictly personal; I may or may not talk about those reasons, but they are not open to discussion in a political sence.

i was gonna say that you didnt have to... but it looks like im too late sadly

[Luís Henrique]

it's easy to say that you wouldnt feel compelled to change your body physically because you are a cisgender man. i find it pretty damn disturbing for you to judge people the way you have simply because you do not and cannot experience what they have. furthermore, not all trans people undergo body modification.

I don't think I am "judging" them anymore than I "judge" women with disagreeable voices or ugly feet. I just don't find gender fixation an attractive trait in people.

Luís Henrique

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I don't think I am "judging" them anymore than I "judge" women with disagreeable voices or ugly feet. I just don't find gender fixation an attractive trait in people.

you can only fantasise and speculate about what you would do in such a circumstance. as a cisgender man you do not have to struggle with gender. you sound just like a white person asking "why does everything have to be about race?" you have the privilege of not having to grapple with gender. it's easy for you to look down on trans people as gender fixated because it's a non issue for you.

[Luís Henrique]

you can only fantasise and speculate about what you would do in such a circumstance. as a cisgender man you do not have to struggle with gender. you sound just like a white person asking "why does everything have to be about race?" you have the privilege of not having to grapple with gender. it's easy for you to look down on trans people as gender fixated because it's a non issue for you.

The comparison to race is silly, as we do not actually have "transraced" people.

I don't think I am "looking down" on people at all. They have the right to be like that and the right to seek remedy for their situation through "gender reassignment". My sexual attraction to them or lack thereof is simply irrelevant to their actual issue.

Luís Henrique

[Ele'ill]

Dr. Rosenpenis, no pics thanks

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The comparison to race is silly, as we do not actually have "transraced" people.

amusingly enough, there are people who self identify as that. it's not very well accepted as far as i know.


My sexual attraction to them or lack thereof is simply irrelevant to their actual issue.

the issue isnt that youre not sexually attracted to someone. it's that you have a preconceived notion of all trans people because admittedly you cannot relate to them. which i find worrisome to say the least.

[The Machine]

Frankly from the posts in this thread Id wager that most of you havent had sex, or any sort of real relationship with the same/opposite sex. When you talk about racism in picking sex partners and bully people for their sexual preference like theyre racist employers it leads me to believe that youre either an asexual or dont have much experience dating at all. And if thats how you roll who am I to judge but treating sex and relationships as a marxist intellectual exercise might be the dumbest thing Ive seen on this sight yet. People are into different shit, and frankly its none of your business. So many people have so many different little quirks they look for that can be a deal breaker or a dealmaker for sex/dating/ect for whatever reason. Devrims example was great, is he an Islamophobe? Are people who are into some weird little trait, like freckles, or even hair color, bigots? Guess my girl who likes my southern accent is discriminating against northerners.

And its just a scientific fact that transmen/women are biologically different that their counterparts. But lol at the all of rev left agrees with me argument. Congratulations, I guess, it doesnt make you any more right but if internet circle jerks are your thing more power to you homie.

As for the OP, why is it any of your business whether or not I would date a transwoman? Who are you to ask and who the fuck are you to judge?

[Zostrianos]

I wouldn't date a trans woman because of the social stigma attached to it. Anyone who does is a braver person than me. I might have once had sex with a transwoman. I say might because I don't actually know I couldn't tell any difference possibly partly because I was shit faced, but there were some things which made me unsure. My friends were convinced that she was and proceeded to severely take the piss and also to tell anyone and everyone we knew who also took the piss. So yeah it's selfish as fuck and I'm a coward but there you go, my life is shitty enough already I don't need more social alienation and whispers behind my back.


Yeah, that's the other issue: humans are judgemental by nature, and dating a transwoman openly would probably unleash a torrent of derision and mockery. While I'm open to the idea of dating a transwoman, I'd keep it discreet.

BTW Manic, your friends are assholes :thumbdown:

[The Machine]

But I think the real question in this thread is whether or not Aurora has stopped beating his wife.

[Crux]

Frankly from the posts in this thread Id wager that most of you havent had sex, or any sort of real relationship with the same/opposite sex. When you talk about racism in picking sex partners and bully people for their sexual preference like theyre racist employers it leads me to believe that youre either an asexual or dont have much experience dating at all. And if thats how you roll who am I to judge but treating sex and relationships as a marxist intellectual exercise might be the dumbest thing Ive seen on this sight yet. People are into different shit, and frankly its none of your business. So many people have so many different little quirks they look for that can be a deal breaker or a dealmaker for sex/dating/ect for whatever reason. Devrims example was great, is he an Islamophobe? Are people who are into some weird little trait, like freckles, or even hair color, bigots? Guess my girl who likes my southern accent is discriminating against northerners.

And its just a scientific fact that transmen/women are biologically different that their counterparts. But lol at the all of rev left agrees with me argument. Congratulations, I guess, it doesnt make you any more right but if internet circle jerks are your thing more power to you homie.

As for the OP, why is it any of your business whether or not I would date a transwoman? Who are you to ask and who the fuck are you to judge?
And frankly I had sex less than 24 h ago, but I don't see what's it to you?
Like so many other critics you just don't seem to "get it". So I pose the same question to you as I did to Devrim, asssuming you wouldn't date a muslim does that also mean it would be completely unproblematic to say "I would never date someone from a muslim background" or even "middle eastern"? The racism is in that statement is implied just as the transphobia in saying you would never date a transperson because of what gender they were born as is implied. If you'd never be with a muslim or with a pre-op transperson that is completely fine, but I think what your reasoning behind doing so is very very relevant. And then there's the other stuff I've already tried to explain to you. Seriously I am repeating myself here.

[Devrim]

What about a trans person with a voice you like and the same ideas or tastes as you

Some people seem really determined to turn this into an inquisition.

Devrim

[Crux]

Some people seem really determined to turn this into an inquisition.

Devrim
Some people seem really determined to play martyrs.

[Niall]

I dont know. Ive been with my girlfriend for 5.5 years and dont see us ending that relationship so Id have to say no on that basis but in a hypothetical world Id say I dunno. Would depend on many things just like it does with nontransgender women

[Devrim]

Some people seem really determined to play martyrs.

I am not playing a martyr in anyway. Despite your trying to imply that I am some sort of Islamophobe, which to people on here who know me must come across as pretty absurd, I haven't made any comment whatsoever on 'who I would date', and to be honest I don't think it is really anybody else's business apart from those concerned.

What I have objected to is the way that this whole thread has been used to scream 'bigot' at people. Not wanting to date somebody does not necessarily make you a bigot.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

the issue isnt that youre not sexually attracted to someone. it's that you have a preconceived notion of all trans people because admittedly you cannot relate to them. which i find worrisome to say the least.

Worrisome why?

Imagine that there was a thread here, whose topic was, "Would you date short middle-aged Brazilians with a belly pot?" Well, I am sure that a few people would, and most wouldn't, due to whatever problems they have with the age, the height, the nationality, or belly pots, or with all of those taken together. Would I feel discriminated against? By no means, even if it is quite probable that women not wanting to date males shorter than them is due to introjected "gender" stereotypes.

People are entitled to their entirely private sexual tastes, and I find the attempt to impose a "politically correct" sexuality into everybody a much more "worrisome", in the "totalitarian" way of "worrisomeness", than sexual personal tastes of whatever kind (well, those that don't imply non-consensual acts, at least).

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Some people seem really determined to play martyrs.

Just because you are playing martyr it doesn't mean that you aren't being burnt at the stake.

...much less that the inquisition didn't exist.

Luís Henrique

[Bronco]

It seems that some people are considering a transperson to be a dating preference like any other, on the same level as not wanting to date someone with, say, ginger hair, someone's who's tall etc. etc. but I don't think this is the case. It isn't discriminatory to say you prefer a certain hair colour, or a certain type of women, those are just trivial aspects of their appearance, the attractiveness of which is of course subjective. But to say this is the same as not wanting to date a transwoman is false and is just trying to create a distinction between a woman and a transwoman when they are the same thing; the former is not a subset of the latter in the same way that aspects of appearance and personality are. At least Manic Impression gave an honest answer, and, I think, an understandable one, if I were to be honest the social stigma would make it difficult for me to date a transwoman as well, although I wouldn't rule it out.

I don't see the need to describe this as an inquistion either, or why people are offended at how personal this question is, it's very easy to keep your answer or opinion private if you so wish, but if you are happy to air it then you should expect to be challenged on it.

[Crux]

I am not playing a martyr in anyway. Despite your trying to imply that I am some sort of Islamophobe, which to people on here who know me must come across as pretty absurd, I haven't made any comment whatsoever on 'who I would date', and to be honest I don't think it is really anybody else's business apart from those concerned.

What I have objected to is the way that this whole thread has been used to scream 'bigot' at people. Not wanting to date somebody does not necessarily make you a bigot.

Devrim
Oh for fucks sake...I am NOT implying you are an islamophobe. How you are unable to understand what I am saying with the comparison I drew is beyond me.

And this I have already adressed pages ago. And FYI several people have responded "no" in a way that is not transphobic. I would rather not have to repeat myself too much so, comrade, a response to what I've said would be nice. If I need to clarify anything please tell me.

[ВАЛТЕР]

No, I would not date a trans person.

[Luís Henrique]

But to say this is the same as not wanting to date a transwoman is false and is just trying to create a distinction between a woman and a transwoman when they are the same thing; the former is not a subset of the latter in the same way that aspects of appearance and personality are.

So, if they are the same "thing", what is this thread about?

Luís Henrique

[Crux]

So, if they are the same "thing", what is this thread about?

Luís Henrique
Clever. :rolleyes:

[Aurora]

As for the OP, why is it any of your business whether or not I would date a transwoman? Who are you to ask and who the fuck are you to judge?
Maybe you could point out where i judged anyone? Because i didn't and if you read my posts you'd know that.
You don't want to answer or participate that's fine, fuck off then, it's not mandatory.

On an individual basis i don't care who anyone dates, it's the reasoning that's important, some people have given perfectly fine reasons why they wouldn't date a transperson and others have given objectionable reasons like they don't consider them to be real men and women etc and most seem to have a gut feeling that they wouldn't.


But I think the real question in this thread is whether or not Aurora has stopped beating his wife.
Grow up you clown.

[Ele'ill]

Some people seem really determined to turn this into an inquisition.

Devrim


Some people seem really above being asked about their positions. I didn't mean for my post to come across as some weird interrogation but as a statement/rebuttal. Sorry if it offended

[NewLeft]

Yes, I'd date someone trans.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I wouldn't date a trans-gendered person.

It's nothing to do with social stigma, or discriminating/being judgemental, it's simply that attraction is not always logical, and i'm not attracted to trans-gendered people, for whatever reason. I have no prejudice (obviously) against a trans-gendered person the same as I don't against a homosexual or heterosexual person, it's just how it is.

Much as I don't judge anybody else for their romantic choices, I don't think this should leave me open to judgements by people trying secretly to turn sexuality into a choice behind a barrage of pro-trans politicking. It's not.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And I agree with what someone else said: if you have a problem with my sexual choices you can go fuck yourself, it's none of your business who I fancy/don't fancy.

[freethinker]

I would if I liked the person...:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
YEAH!

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Much as I don't judge anybody else for their romantic choices, I don't think this should leave me open to judgements by people trying secretly to turn sexuality into a choice behind a barrage of pro-trans politicking. It's not.

oh it's no secret mate. sexuality is a choice. but please go on...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

oh it's no secret mate. sexuality is a choice. but please go on...

Well, it's not.

I can't choose to fancy a man, or a trans-gendered person. I mean, i'm thinking about it right now and...nope, I can't make that choice. I could be surrounded by the most attractive men in the world and i'd have no attraction to them and no inclination of arousal.

That's not my choice, is it? Or am I some sort of secret homophobe because of this?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I can't choose to fancy a man, or a trans-gendered person. I mean, i'm thinking about it right now and...nope, I can't make that choice.

If you don't know and is attracted but later find out and is so no more - probably, if not intentionally at least on a subconscious level.

[Quail]

Yes I would. I'm bi so gender isn't really an issue for me. TBH it baffles me when heteros freak out at the thought of another man's genitals.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Well, it's not.

I can't choose to fancy a man, or a trans-gendered person. I mean, i'm thinking about it right now and...nope, I can't make that choice. I could be surrounded by the most attractive men in the world and i'd have no attraction to them and no inclination of arousal.

That's not my choice, is it? Or am I some sort of secret homophobe because of this?

i probably misspoke and i should clarify. people are sometimes not the same sex that they were assigned at birth. that much is not a matter of choice but of natural or conditional factors.

[The Young Pioneer]

I've been thinking of this thread when offline ('cause my mind wanders to the lamest things in real life), and I have to say it's a really really loaded question and I still think it's unfair.

We all have our tastes and some people might be quite turned off to the idea that the girl/guy they're dating used to be the other gender. And that's OKAY. It's a personal choice and doesn't make someone a bigot or an improper commie or whatever else.

For example, I have a 'type.' I don't always stick to it, but in the initial shallow, visual attraction, I'm more likely to think you're hot if you've got long hair, wear black, and have really amazing eyes that give away a deep soul.

Usually, I fall for women. But I've dated a couple guys I've liked, too. So I really can't just say without a doubt, No, no I'd never date such-and-such type of person. Ffs, there could be a drop dead gorgeous metal transgender man or woman out there, and I'd be all over them in a second without another thought.

But would I go on a random date with someone trans? No, because I wouldn't go on a random date period.

Now, stop backing comrades into a corner. We're always preaching acceptance for those whose sexual orientation is not their choice. Same should go for people who aren't attracted to the idea of dating someone transgendered.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

If you don't know and is attracted but later find out and is so no more - probably, if not intentionally at least on a subconscious level.

No, it is "preassigned" at conception. If a person finds out about sexual tastes they have later in life it simply means that they had repressed those feelings earlier on. One cannot devolp, choose, or grow sexual attractions later in life as a result of the environment.

Such opinions are popular here but it doesn't negate away from the fact that it is complete and utter bullshit.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

No, it is "preassigned" at conception. If a person finds out about sexual tastes they have later in life it simply means that they had repressed those feelings earlier on. One cannot devolp, choose, or grow sexual attractions later in life as a result of the environment.

Such opinions are popular here but it doesn't negate away from the fact that it is complete and utter bullshit.

Your argument fails to be persuasive and only gives vent to your own conviction, which, as far as I am concerned, are as much nonsense as they are irrelevant. The fact that ideas contrary to your own contradictions are present here is testament to nothing and I am not sure why in the world you even added that, almost as if you wanted to carry that discussion from some other thread onto here. Your rant here, has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

If a person, who was born biologically a male, but, let us say, appeals to the tastes of one of the posters herein who say they would not like someone who was transgender, and has genitalia now that matches the taste of said individual - what is it that would make them not attracted, if all other aspects, for the sake of argument, where such that they would find attractive in someone of the "biological sex" (voice, appearance, what-have-you), if not a lingering homophobic (and transphobic) notion along the lines of "ewwww dirty, person had a penis, how gross!"?

[Misanthrope]

Why is a personal sexual preference thread in discrimination?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Your argument fails to be persuasive and only gives vent to your own conviction, which, as far as I am concerned, are as much nonsense as they are irrelevant. The fact that ideas contrary to your own contradictions are present here is testament to nothing and I am not sure why in the world you even added that, almost as if you wanted to carry that discussion from some other thread onto here. Your rant here, has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

If a person, who was born biologically a male, but, let us say, appeals to the tastes of one of the posters herein who say they would not like someone who was transgender, and has genitalia now that matches the taste of said individual - what is it that would make them not attracted, if all other aspects, for the sake of argument, where such that they would find attractive in someone of the "biological sex" (voice, appearance, what-have-you), if not a lingering homophobic (and transphobic) notion along the lines of "ewwww dirty, person had a penis, how gross!"?

Your entire posts completely ignored the fact I am presenting: sexual orientation, not identity, is inborn-genetic- not something derived from the environment. You are veering off course in order to confuse people.

edit: ...and you were the one which brought this topic up, so please, do not blame me for "carrying over" arguments.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Your entire posts completely ignored the fact I am presenting: sexual orientation, not identity, is inborn-genetic- not something derived from the environment. You are veering off course in order to confuse people.

Except I do not see the relation this bears to the issue at hand, apart from the fact that you are wrong.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Except I do not see the relation this bears to the issue at hand, apart from the fact that you are wrong.

...which is interesting as why you would bring up such a topic to begin with. I certaintly did not start this off course debate. You,and others,were the ones which brought this sub-set in.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

...which is interesting as why you would bring up such a topic to begin with. I certaintly did not start this off course debate. You,and others,were the ones which brought this sub-set in.

I did not, unless your implication by this is that somehow our speculative transgender person would still emit something that would allow the other person to detect their genetic code and decide that "ewww born a man/woman", which perhaps it is.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I did not, unless your implication by this is that somehow our speculative transgender person would still emit something that would allow the other person to detect their genetic code and decide that "ewww born a man/woman", which perhaps it is.

Others did and you took it up, in any case the actual topic about transgendered people doesn't hold my attention currently.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Others did and you took it up, in any case the actual topic about transgendered people doesn't hold my attention currently.

If it does not hold your interest, perhaps you should not participate; just as I do not participate in discussions about your genetic nonsense.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

If it does not hold your interest, perhaps you should not participate; just as I do not participate in discussions about your genetic nonsense.

Nonsense which has been proven many times, and you did participate by advocating your nonsense.

[Zostrianos]

By the time puberty hits, most people already know what their orientation is

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Nonsense which has been proven many times, and you did participate by advocating your nonsense.

I do not understand what this has to do with what I said.

What I said was as follows: a person meets a person and finds self attracted to them. This person later finds out that the person in question has had a sexual reassignment. If the person claims that this revelation, this information, changes their attraction, is it a result of somehow the magic pheromones suddenly starting to be produced, or is it a result of that person being homophobic/transphobic and frightening by the idea that the person that they were - or still are, perhaps in denial - attracted to was born as the other biological sex.

Where does the relevance of your nonsense come into this? I do not see this as in anyway touching on the issue you brought up, no matter how arrogant you are about it.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Where does the relevance of your nonsense come into this? I do not see this as in anyway touching on the issue you brought up, no matter how arrogant you are about it.


You said:


If you don't know and is attracted but later find out and is so no more - probably, if not intentionally at least on a subconscious level.

Hence, avocation of your environment nonsense.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You said:



Hence, avocation of your environment nonsense.

Then, you misunderstand what I said.

If the person is attracted to someone transgendered, but finds out that they are transgendered and then "cease" to be attracted - then yes, they are probably bigoted, even if they do not know it. This does not touch on the issue of environment.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Then, you misunderstand what I said.

If the person is attracted to someone transgendered, but finds out that they are transgendered and then "cease" to be attracted - then yes, they are probably bigoted, even if they do not know it. This does not touch on the issue of environment.

Than I apologize for "jumping the gun" and initiating an off course argument.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The real question is this: would a transperson date you?

[Luís Henrique]

The real question is this: would a transperson date you?

Yeah, that.

And the real answer would probably be, "by no means"...

Luís Henrique

[GX.]

Well assuming that your sexuality is totally sacrosanct, and that not liking trans people is an innate part of it and not the product of at least some internalized transphobia/trans misogyny (maybe that's the case, I don't know or care), do you all really think it's okay to go parading around your dislike of trans people and pointing out all the ways they're unattractive to you? I mean that's verging into TMI territory in the first place, but you guys (mostly guys I think) really think it's cool to make a point of this when trans women are constantly objectified in some really disgusting ways? It never crossed anyone's mind that maybe some of us are reading and maybe we don't like to be given this sort of objectifying treatment? I don't know, like it's really important for me to know that you wouldn't fuck me. ?!?! I'm just taken aback at how clueless this all is, wow

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

Yes I would. I'm bi so gender isn't really an issue for me. TBH it baffles me when heteros freak out at the thought of another man's genitals.

I never really understood that. Even if you aren't gay, it shouldn't freak you out, you have those parts.

[Red Rabbit]

In the hypothetical situation where I'm not dating my current girlfriend, then yes, I would date a transperson.


The real question is this: would a transperson date you?

I like this question better. :)

[Zav]

Why not? If I'm going to date someone then I'd have to be attracted to them mentally and emotionally. Gender, sex, and lack thereof aren't important to me. As for physical attraction, I generally prefer the male and androgynous aesthetics, but I can be attracted to anyone.

[Prometeo liberado]

If said person was picking up the tab for dinner I would almost certainly have to. I would date a glass of water if this were the case.

[Narcissus]

I would. I am mostly attracted to women. Pre-op would not be a problem for me, in fact I think that element of mutuality would make it preferable IMO to post-op. Even though I hope the woman would be getting enjoyment out of a sexual encounter (because I am so handsome :) ) I think that the lack of physical pleasure she would be receiving would be off putting for me. I dislike imbalance of power in sex (as in everything), and I think I would feel like the one getting most out of it (which I don't like).

Genitalia however isn't very important to me. Neither is gender. Personality and looks transcend gender for me - humans are humans.

I wouldn't be condemning people for saying no to TS people. Not so long ago, I was in that place. Just try to keep an open mind, and really examine yourself even if it seems scary. It is not easy to overcome societal conditioning and all the pressure that goes with it. Be brave, be thoughtful, be understanding, and don't worry about chromosomes.

Sexual preferences must be respected when they have their roots purely in aesthetics and personality. If you don't tend find white women attractive, that's fine. However if you find a woman attractive but won't act upon your feelings solely on account of skin colour (or the stereotypes associated with skin colour) then you are too ignorant to forgive.

edit: I see this is an old thread. I've no idea how I came across it. Sorry about the bump.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I totally would. ;)1