Marxist–Leninist atheism

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

How is it really different from normal atheism?

[Althusser]

Well, it's less than indifferent about whether or not everyone else is an atheist.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

How is it really different from normal atheism?

The difference between bourgeois atheism (Bill Maher) and Marxist-Leninist atheism is that we Marxist-Leninists do not put religious issues at the top of our worry list. That is where class struggle goes. We also traditionally advocate state atheism and see materialistic atheism as the only path to the liberation of the working class (while, of course, still not maintaining religion as the center of our attention).

[seventeethdecember2016]

Marxist–Leninist atheism is a form of atheism which holds that the essence of religion is the opium of the people and it should therefore be abolished. Communism, as originally laid out by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, required the abolition of all religion in order to reach its ideal end-state. It was interpreted in this fashion by Vladimir Lenin and the Government of the Soviet Union until the country's dissolution.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist-Leninist_atheism


Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[Bostana]

Really Marxism-Leninism Atheism, as Comrade Comistar said, is Atheism that is not forced upon people.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Also, Marxist-Leninists are not afraid to be rough with religion, particularly religion that has been proven to support counterrevolutionary people and groups. I personally like the Hoxha plan, which involves outlawing religion altogether.

[Bronco]

I don't see any need for a distinction tbh

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I don't see any need for a distinction tbh

There is a huge distinction. Do you see how a majority of atheists in America are pro-capitalism and do see how Ayn Rand was an atheist? We are special atheists due to our audacity, our materialism, and our focus on class struggle.

[Art Vandelay]

Does anyone know what Marx said on the matter? Did he think there would be a need to outlaw religion? Or that they would no longer need their "opium" in a post-capitalist society having overcome alienation?

[seventeethdecember2016]

Does anyone know what Marx said on the matter? Did he think there would be a need to outlaw religion? Or that they would no longer need their "opium" in a post-capitalist society having overcome alienation?
He said that it was a tool that the upper classes used to keep the lower classes oppressed. I'm paraphrasing.

[Per Levy]

Does anyone know what Marx said on the matter? Did he think there would be a need to outlaw religion? Or that they would no longer need their "opium" in a post-capitalist society having overcome alienation?

if i recall it right, marx said that religion would wither away after the revolution, that with time it wouldnt exist anymore, no need for outlawing it(wich would be redicilous anyway).

[dodger]

Religious people can and do support class struggle and Revolution. Many,many forfeiting their lives. People themselves can judge who or what is genuine. Many more maintain a benevolent neutrality or find common ground in peace movements. I cannot see how an outright ban on religion might be productive. Not a fan myself of religion or banning same. As ever circumstance...freeing oneself and a country from venal religious superstition and institutions ticks my boxes. I am not a busybody, peoples fidelity to their beliefs is not my concern. Nor should it be of anybody else.

[Ocean Seal]

Also, Marxist-Leninists are not afraid to be rough with religion, particularly religion that has been proven to support counterrevolutionary people and groups. I personally like the Hoxha plan, which involves outlawing religion altogether.
That policy didn't work out super well. Just check the fact that there are more religious folks in Albania than in other socialist countries. I don't really see the benefits to Hoxha's plan. Making thought a crime especially a very abstract kind of thought isn't productive.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Religious people can and do support class struggle and Revolution. Many,many forfeiting their lives. People themselves can judge who or what is genuine. Many more maintain a benevolent neutrality or find common ground in peace movements. I cannot see how an outright ban on religion might be productive. Not a fan myself of religion or banning same. As ever circumstance...freeing oneself and a country from venal religious superstition and institutions ticks my boxes. I am not a busybody, peoples fidelity to their beliefs is not my concern. Nor should it be of anybody else.

You sound like Lenin before he had any power. Then he got power and started to attack the Russian Orthodox Church.

[Railyon]

Really Marxism-Leninism Atheism, as Comrade Comistar said, is Atheism that is not forced upon people.

Religious hard right-wingers would actually say Stalinism was a manifestation of militant atheism.

Think of that what you will. I just like the irony behind it.

[Bronco]

There is a huge distinction. Do you see how a majority of atheists in America are pro-capitalism and do see how Ayn Rand was an atheist? We are special atheists due to our audacity, our materialism, and our focus on class struggle.

Well atheism is atheism, I don't really see why incorporating it into your politics makes you a "special" atheist or any more of one than Ayn Rand

[Bronco]

The difference between bourgeois atheism (Bill Maher) and Marxist-Leninist atheism is that we Marxist-Leninists do not put religious issues at the top of our worry list. That is where class struggle goes. We also traditionally advocate state atheism and see materialistic atheism as the only path to the liberation of the working class (while, of course, still not maintaining religion as the center of our attention).


Really Marxism-Leninism Atheism, as Comrade Comistar said, is Atheism that is not forced upon people.


Also, Marxist-Leninists are not afraid to be rough with religion, particularly religion that has been proven to support counterrevolutionary people and groups. I personally like the Hoxha plan, which involves outlawing religion altogether.

Bit of disagreement here, no?

[Grenzer]

In many cases, state atheism such as that which has existed in some Marxist-Leninist states was a mistake. It seems to breed a lot of discontent, and is counter-productive to the aim of building a socialist society; but depending on the context some action may be required.

In any case, religious associations and organizations are worth keeping an eye on, since they tend to be breeding grounds for reactionaries. One can say what they will about Stalin, but it really does seem to me that that the state atheism of the Soviet Union in the 20's and 30's was more influenced by political concerns. I honestly doubt that the Bolsheviks were so insecure in their atheism as to feel the need to 'evangelize' atheism. In other words, Marxist-Leninist atheism seems to be more or less inspired by Material concerns, as opposed to the idealist concerns of people like Richard Dawkins. I don't think it would be accurate to say that they are the same.

Some socialist organizations, particularly anarchist ones seem to be a fan of this, make atheism a prerequisite for joining the party/club/whatever. This seems to be a mistake as it really only serves to turn some people away from socialism.

[seventeethdecember2016]

^
The question was the difference between Marxist-Leninist Atheism and other types of Atheism. Not your opinion on the matter.

You seemed to partially answer this, but most of your comment was off topic.

[Art Vandelay]

^
The question was the difference between Marxist-Leninist Atheism and other types of Atheism. Not your opinion on the matter.

You seemed to partially answer this, but most of your comment was off topic.

There have been a few posts with absolutely no substance and this is what you nitpick at? :rolleyes:

[Art Vandelay]

You sound like Lenin before he had any power. Then he got power and started to attack the Russian Orthodox Church.

So he was an opportunist?

[dodger]

You sound like Lenin before he had any power. Then he got power and started to attack the Russian Orthodox Church.

Do you think Dodger capable of double-speak? Commistar we broke the back of the church 500yrs ago. It's a tame church as long as we keep it tame. So it is all to do with time and place.

[Grenzer]

There have been a few posts with absolutely no substance and this is what you nitpick at? :rolleyes:

He's probably still just upset because I've criticized his hero, Mao.

And as for the OP's question, I did answer it. I said that liberal atheism is idealistic in nature and that Marxist-Leninist atheism is more motivated by material concerns.

So yeah, Have is pretty much just trolling at the moment.

[Art Vandelay]

He's probably still just upset because I've criticized his hero, Mao.

And as for the OP's question, I did answer it. I said that liberal atheism is idealistic in nature and that Marxist-Leninist atheism is more motivated by material concerns.

So yeah, Have is pretty much just trolling at the moment.

You gave, by far, the most helpful answer to the OP's question, I think he was just a little butt hurt that it came from an "ultra-leftist." I guess if I insist on calling them stalinists instead of marxist-leninists then I have to accept the "ultra-leftist" label.

[Positivist]

Also, Marxist-Leninists are not afraid to be rough with religion, particularly religion that has been proven to support counterrevolutionary people and groups. I personally like the Hoxha plan, which involves outlawing religion altogether.

The suppression of religion has only served to empower it. I refer you to "Cat's Cradle" by Kurt Vonnegut. In the story due to an inability to raise the economic standard of living amongst their population they outlaw the formerly state sponsored religion in order to impress it's ideas amongst its adherents and give the people something to be excited about. It all ties into the psychology of resistance. You tell someone no and they immediately want it more. (Kurt Vonnegut was somewhat anti-communist but this was a consequence of his nihilism. He was equally anti-capitalist and is comparable to Nietzsche with the exception being that Vonnegut doesn't propose any concepts such as the higher men or amoralism. Vonnegut was more of a dissappointed humanist who valued human well-being but didn't have any faith in humanity's ability to empower itself in any meaningful way.)

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Mr. Enver Broxha gave a really good answer, I must say. And about the outlawing religion thing, I guess it could be counterproductive, but my preference goes to it. or at least restricting religion so it will not become a threat to the progressive dictatorship of the proletariat. Religions often harbor reactionary groups and individuals.

[Art Vandelay]

Mr. Enver Broxha gave a really good answer, I must say. And about the outlawing religion thing, I guess it could be counterproductive, but my preference goes to that, or at least restricting religion so it will not become a threat to the progressive dictatorship of the proletariat. Religions often harbor reactionary groups and individuals.

I think it would be fair to say that religion is something which is private and should be kept that way, on everyone's part (the religious and anti-religious). As the DotP or a socialist society progresses, given the material conditions, religion will slowly vanish. You turn too many people away by outlawing religion.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I think it would be fair to say that religion is something which is private and should be kept that way, on everyone's part (the religious and anti-religious). As the DotP or a socialist society progresses, given the material conditions, religion will slowly vanish. You turn too many people away by outlawing religion.

Not being to radical is important, particularly in the US, where many workers are religious. Yet, the one thing that I will not recant is the fact that the state religion should always be atheism and atheist education must be used. Also, dangerous reactionaries of all religions must be restricted.

[Per Levy]

state religion should always be atheism

poorly worded? or how can atheism be a religion?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

poorly worded? or how can atheism be a religion?

You know what I meant. Do you have a better word?

[Ocean Seal]

You sound like Lenin before he had any power. Then he got power and started to attack the Russian Orthodox Church.
Attacking a powerful and throughly reactionary religious institution is one thing, preventing people from praying is another. The RO Church was essentially the second most influential institution under the czar and deeply intertwined with the most horrible aspects of religious sectarianism under his reign. So yes, you should attack the Russian Orthodox Church, before, during, and after the revolution, but not the peasant mother of five whose prayers are the only thing that get her through imperialist aggression.

[Per Levy]

You know what I meant. Do you have a better word?

i know what you meant yes, but really statereligion is an ugly word, not to mention when it is used for atheism. statephilosophy might work better, or "the state should always be atheistic" or "the guideline of the state should be atheistic" that still sounds better than statereligion.

[Art Vandelay]

Not being to radical is important, particularly in the US, where many workers are religious. Yet, the one thing that I will not recant is the fact that the state religion should always be atheism and atheist education must be used. Also, dangerous reactionaries of all religions must be restricted.

I think it would have to, obviously, be examined depending on the situation. I cannot agree with the implication of "state" anything, but that is a different topic. Another example, however, would be Spain in 36. The church in Spain had played a historically repressive and reactionary role which lead to a lot of pent up anger of the working class' erupting. At what point is the line crossed that this is either:

a) Justified anger and revenge for years of repression.

b) Over the top bloodshed and restriction.

[Bostana]

Religious hard right-wingers would actually say Stalinism was a manifestation of militant atheism.

Think of that what you will. I just like the irony behind it.

While on the other hand we think, and they are, militant Christians

[Bostana]

Bit of disagreement here, no?

State atheism is really just a state with no official religion. Countries such as Poland, Italy, and Greece all have state Religions.

Getting rough with religion means that we won't take any of their religious crap.

[Ismail]

That policy didn't work out super well. Just check the fact that there are more religious folks in Albania than in other socialist countries.Actually some sources say that, when it comes to religion, about 70% of Albania is agnostic. In 1990 when religion was legalized Muslims and Christians prayed together because no one knew what "Islam" and "Christianity" meant.

It was generally an unpopular policy, though.

[Magón]

So if there's "Marxist-Leninist" Atheism, which is counter to "Capitalist" Atheism, is there "Anarchist" Atheism, "Left Communist" Atheism, etc. Because frankly, it seems like those uphold "Marxist-Leninist" Atheism are tripping over exactly what they're talking about.

Bronco already quoted them though.

[Ismail]

I compiled these quotes two months ago in the M-L group, they should state the "Marxist-Leninist" stance on atheism and religion pretty clearly:

"Religion must be declared a private affair... Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule."
(V.I. Lenin. Collected Works Vol. 10. Moscow: Progress Publishers. 1978. p. 84.)

"The proletariat in a particular region and in a particular industry is divided, let us assume, into an advanced section of fairly class-conscious Social-Democrats, who are of course atheists, and rather backward workers who are still connected with the countryside and with the peasantry, and who believe in God, go to church, or are even under the direct influence of the local priest—who, let us suppose, is organising a Christian labour union. Let us assume furthermore that the economic struggle in this locality has resulted in a strike. It is the duty of a Marxist to place the success of the strike movement above everything else, vigorously to counteract the division of the workers in this struggle into atheists and Christians, vigorously to oppose any such division. Atheist propaganda in such circumstances may be both unnecessary and harmful—not from the philistine fear of scaring away the backward sections, of losing a seat in the elections, and so on, but out of consideration for the real progress of the class struggle, which in the conditions of modern capitalist society will convert Christian workers to Social-Democracy and to atheism a hundred times better than bald atheist propaganda. To preach atheism at such a moment and in such circumstances would only be playing into the hands of the priest and the priests, who desire nothing better than that the division of the workers according to their participation in the strike movement should be replaced by their division according to their belief in God. An anarchist who preached war against God at all costs would in effect be helping the priests and the bourgeoisie (as the anarchists always do help the bourgeoisie in practice). A Marxist must be a materialist, i.e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i.e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could. A Marxist must be able to view the concrete situation as a whole, he must always be able to find the boundary between anarchism and opportunism (this boundary is relative, shifting and changeable, but it exists)."
(V.I. Lenin. Collected Works Vol. 15. Moscow: Progress Publishers. 1977. pp. 407-408.)

"So-called 'god-building' as a literary trend and, in general, the introduction of religious elements into socialism is the result of an interpretation of the principles of Marxism that is unscientific and therefore harmful for the proletariat. The Baku Committee emphasises that Marxism took shape and developed into a definite world outlook not as the result of an alliance with religious elements, but as the result of an implacable struggle against them."
(J.V. Stalin. Works Vol. 2. Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House. 1953. pp. 171-172.)

"The laws of our country recognise the right of every citizen to profess any religion. That is a matter for the conscience of each individual. That is precisely why we separated the church from the state. But in separating the church from the state and proclaiming freedom of conscience we at the same time preserved the right of every citizen to combat religion, all religion, by argument, by propaganda and agitation. The Party cannot be neutral towards religion, and it conducts anti-religious propaganda against all religious prejudices because it stands for science, whereas religious prejudices run counter to science, because all religion is the antithesis of science. Cases such as occur in America, where Darwinists were prosecuted recently, cannot occur here because the Party pursues a policy of defending science in every way.

The Party cannot be neutral towards religious prejudices, and it will continue to conduct propaganda against those prejudices, because that is one of the best means of undermining the influence of the reactionary clergy, who support the exploiting classes and who preach submission to those classes.

The Party cannot be neutral towards the disseminators of religious prejudices, towards the reactionary clergy, who poison the minds of the labouring masses.

Have we repressed the reactionary clergy? Yes, we have. The only unfortunate thing is that they have not yet been completely eliminated. Anti-religious propaganda is the means by which the elimination of the reactionary clergy will be completely carried through. Cases occur sometimes when certain members of the Party hinder the full development of anti-religious propaganda. If such members are expelled it is a very good thing, because there is no room for such 'Communists' in the ranks of our Party."
(J.V. Stalin. Works Vol. 10. Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House. 1954. pp. 138-139.)

"The case of this patriotic clergyman, Baba Faja, was not the only one. Later there were other clergymen who joined the National Liberation War heart and soul and fought in it. The activities of Mustafa Xhani had great propaganda importance among the people, because he showed the people that their religious convictions are one thing, while being Albanian patriots is another thing. 'Regardless of whether you are a Moslem, Orthodox or Catholic, your first duty is the war for the freedom of Albania,' this is what Baba Faja told all Albanians through his personal fight. And this was completely in conformity with the line of our Communist Party for the unity of the whole Albanian people in the war for freedom."
(Enver Hoxha. Laying the Foundations of the New Albania. London: Workers' Publishing House. 1984. p. 149.)

"We Marxist-Leninists always understand clearly that religion is opium for the people. In no instance do we alter our view on this and we must not fall into the errors of 'religious socialism', etc."
(Enver Hoxha. Reflections on the Middle East. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1984. p. 358.)

Atheism is atheism. Marxism calls for a materialist conception of history against an idealist conception. You can be an atheist and a reactionary, an atheist and a utopian, but you can also be an atheist and a materialist, and in fact this is where atheism attains the strongest ground because it is thus integrated into a scientific-materialist world outlook.

[The Intransigent Faction]

State atheism is really just a state with no official religion. Countries such as Poland, Italy, and Greece all have state Religions.

Getting rough with religion means that we won't take any of their religious crap.

There's a bit of confusion here. State atheism would be a state officially endorsing atheism. Where a state does not have a policy or decide to favour one way or the other, that is not atheism, but secularism.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

It was generally an unpopular policy, though.

Yeah, because religion was implanted into the Albanian culture prior to the national liberation, despite the fact that all religion is originally foreign to the land.

[Ostrinski]

The difference between bourgeois atheism (Bill Maher) and Marxist-Leninist atheism is thatso nothing then

[Ismail]

so nothing thenWell Maher's atheism can't really be divorced from his lame liberal elitism.

[Ostrinski]

It's still capitulating to a bourgeois mode of thought though. Treating certain aspects of society as isolated problems and trying to change them as such by enforcing ideas is liberalism.

[Ismail]

Treating certain aspects of society as isolated problems and trying to change them as such by enforcing ideas is liberalism.Well the anti-religious campaign was coupled with the campaign for women's emancipation, both which were grouped among other things under the header of the Ideological and Cultural Revolution. The Democratic Front would hold mass meetings in the towns and countryside denouncing religious practices and figures, would work to transform religious buildings into ones of public use (e.g. basketball courts, warehouses), had clergy work normal jobs, etc. And, of course, religion was equated with patriarchy and foreign rule. The youth were far more interested than adults.

Bit different from random ranting about how Christians are lame or whatever.

[seventeethdecember2016]

He's probably still just upset because I've criticized his hero, Mao.
What in the world makes you think I'm a Maoist? I certainly am not one!