Nyder

[The Feral Underclass]

Just to make it absolutle unequvocable clear to you...

STALIN...MAO.....IL JONG....POL POT......MINH NEVER EVER ACHIEVED COMMUNISM

NONE OF THEM WERE OR ARE COMMUNISTS.....THE REGIME IN CHINA AND NORTH KOREA DO NOT HAVE A TRACE OF COMMUNIST IDEOLOGY IN THEM....

STOP REFERING TO THESE THINGS WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT COMMUNISM....IT IS FACTUALLY UNTRUE...IN FACT IT IS A CONTRADICTION....WHAT YOU DESCICRIBE TO BE COMMUNISM IS COMPLETLY THE OPPOSITE...

DOOOOOOOOOOO YOOOOOUUUUUU UNDERSTAAAAAANNNNDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!

[RevolucioN NoW]

LOL remember he's a cappie, he uses the same arguments over and over, no matter how factually untrue or contradictory they may be.

I think that his unflinching, yet both theoretically and factually untrue assumption that communism can only be held together by violence should also be corrected here. I will repeat what i said in another thread, when there is no state institutions, permanent police force or military, who exactly will be threatening and/or perpetratingthis violence?

Can you provide any quotes from credibal Marxist theoreticians advocating mass repression

[Nyder]

I have already asked this question numerous times but l will repeat it here for you:

A communist society would forbid private ownership and free trading to occur. SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ENFORCE THIS WITHOUT A STATE?

Think very carefully, now.

Another question:

Since the transition period to communism would have to include nationalisation of all industries and therefore total government control of the economy - what makes you think that such a powerful government would all of a sudden vote itself out of existence? Can you provide any examples of this happening?

These two facts in itself prove that communism is unworkable (you need a state to enforce communism and it is absurd to think that an all-powerful government will abolish itself) and therefore the regimes of Kim Jong Il, Stalin, Castro, Mao, etc were of course natural and expected outcomes of an attempt to install communism.

[Xuix]

first of all, mao, stalin and king jong il all follow under the same rule of government, if you lean to far left or too far right it goes in a circle that leads to one thing, dictatorship, their governments aren't communist, since communism looks after the whole of the people, and it works, you just need proper funding and an uncorupt government. Sure theirs a few quirks about communism, (a system easily manipulated etc.) But in the end of done right it can be a great system to live on. Mao,Stalin and King jong ill only said They were communist as a lie to cover up the fact that they were a dictatorship, either left or right it doesn't matter. Dictatorship is just that, a dictatorship. It isn't Communist, Liberal,Socialist or any of that garbage they spit out at you

[The Feral Underclass]

A communist society would forbid private ownership and free trading to occur. SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ENFORCE THIS WITHOUT A STATE?

These things happen now because of peoples wants...We over produce items to sell in shops. our lives are fuelled by consumerism...In a communist society the point of life would not be to buy a new dvd player etc. It would be to enjoy life.

of course we need things like food etc so everyone has to contribute something to society every week and in return is provided for.

Notice the word need. Only things that are needed are produced. Things such as raw materials would be negotiated by whom ever needed them.


Since the transition period to communism would have to include nationalisation of all industries and therefore total government control of the economy - what makes you think that such a powerful government would all of a sudden vote itself out of existence? Can you provide any examples of this happening?

It has never happened. And in my opinion will not happen. I am an anarchist, and believe that this transition does not work and infact is unnecessary.

[(*]

Is it necessary to dedicate a thread to one person, the proceed to call them a dumb fuck?

Ad hominems are extremely counterproductive

[The Feral Underclass]

Sorry...i do apologise for calling you a dumb fuck it was rather silly of me...

[RevolucioN NoW]

A communist society would forbid private ownership and free trading to occur. SO HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ENFORCE THIS WITHOUT A STATE?

A communist society would be organised (i believe) into self sufficient areas were all the means of production and distribution are owned by the people who run them collectively. Under this system, how could private property eventuate, and more importantly, how could it be viable. The entire point of owning private property is to make a profit, correct, so how could a profit making fruit store, for instance, compete with a workers owned, free store?


Since the transition period to communism would have to include nationalisation of all industries and therefore total government control of the economy - what makes you think that such a powerful government would all of a sudden vote itself out of existence? Can you provide any examples of this happening?

In the tranistion period between capitalism and communism workers would take over the means of production and run them as a collective, there is no real need for Nationalisation by a state institution. These collectives would then network with other collectives whcih it needs supplies from, and set up supply chains. The collectives would also organise with representatives of local collectives on what was needed to be produced. By doing this there is little need for a state aparatus.

[dancingoutlaw]

In a communist society the point of life would not be to buy a new dvd player etc. It would be to enjoy life

Anarchist Tension, A dvd player is one of the thigs out of life that I enjoy.


Notice the word need. Only things that are needed are produced. Things such as raw materials would be negotiated by whom ever needed them

Without a state who would negotiate? If there are democratically elected heads of collective or heads of commitees of the collective then that sounds like a state to me.



I will repeat what i said in another thread, when there is no state institutions, permanent police force or military, who exactly will be threatening and/or perpetratingthis violence?

RevolucioN NoW,

The argument also goes the other way. Without a state who builds bridges, maintains roads, allocates land and water use, funnels and filters the sewage?



Can you provide any quotes from credibal Marxist theoreticians advocating mass repression

" Apart from their other characteristics, the outstanding thing about China's 600 million people is that they are 'poor and blank.' This may seem a bad thing, but in a reality it is a good thing. Poverty gives rise ti the desire for change, the desire for revolution. On a blank sheet of paper free from any mark, the freshest and most beautiful characters can be written, the freshest and most beautiful pictures can be painted."

Mao from "Quotations from Chairman Mao"

Perhaps you do not see the problem in refering to the Chinese who have had thousands of years of statehood behind them as a tabula rasa. I do. Of course no one comes out and says they ar going to enact a repressive state. That is left to the facsists. But followers of beliefs such as this; that a great number of people are nothing more than work horses for the greater good of the State or of communion or of brotherhood or whatever it be (yes even the dollar) and not individuals then you get insanity. Inasanity like the Great Leap Forward, The Cultural Revolution, the purges, the holocaust, World War 1, the list goes on.

As a race we make our own heaven, but we are much better at making our own hell. Capitalism may not be perfect. We are not divine so I doubt anyone could ever conceive a perfect system. As the only system that ensures rights to the individual, an outlet for real dissent, a choice of where you want your personal resources to go into, then that is what I will go with as the least hellish path.

peace

[RevolucioN NoW]

The argument also goes the other way. Without a state who builds bridges, maintains roads, allocates land and water use, funnels and filters the sewage?

This would be handled by assembles with representatives from each area who would come together, either physically or via some form of communication. If one collective needed a new bridge, it would send its representative to the council in order to acquire supplies and manpower etc.

Thats pretty sketchy but the basic idea.


" Apart from their other characteristics, the outstanding thing about China's 600 million people is that they are 'poor and blank.' This may seem a bad thing, but in a reality it is a good thing. Poverty gives rise ti the desire for change, the desire for revolution. On a blank sheet of paper free from any mark, the freshest and most beautiful characters can be written, the freshest and most beautiful pictures can be painted."

Mao from "Quotations from Chairman Mao"

I wouldnt say this would fit into the "mass repression" catagory but i still see where your coming from. Mao made some big mistakes and that is one of the reasons why i reject leninism/maoism/stalinism. A communist society would give everyone a say in how there world is run, there would be no "workhorses", even for the greater good, and there will be no repeats of the pasts mistakes.

[The Feral Underclass]

Dancingoutlaw


Anarchist Tension, A dvd player is one of the thigs out of life that I enjoy.

I used it as an example. Of course watching DVD's is a nice past tim but not of great importance. Your wanting for a DVD player is not greater than the needs of a commune and to think so is rediculas.

If society desperatly wanted DVD players then society would organize the manafacturing of them.


Without a state who would negotiate? If there are democratically elected heads of collective or heads of commitees of the collective then that sounds like a state to me.

Look at the bizarness of this comment. You assert that it is only possible to have elected heads or heads of committees to organize the procurement of materials...I can quite easily pick up a phone and call someone. I do not need someone "head" to do it for me.

If we are tlaking about factories etc then there would be responsability areas. If your responsability was to attain some raw materials then you would do it.

If it was on an international level, then it maybe necessary to have rotad or demarchically elected responsable people to deal with this level of planning.