The Revolution.

[Mike Fakelastname]

Sorry for the 2nd topic right in a row. Anyway:

This is like one of the biggest commie message boards on the net, right? Then this would be a fundamental place to organize the revolution. As a raging Leninist, it hurts me to sit back doing nothing. All we do here is sit here and talk about how it's coming. It's not going to come if we don't do anything. This is one of the few places we can really get it kicked off at. I'm no natural leader, I just think we should be doing something proactive.

[Pete]

I doubt that anything spawned on the internet would work. Being a raging aleninist, I believe the only way for a revolution to happen is to create a crisis (much like LutherKing if I am not mistaken). To create a crisis you need to get the masses to realize their oppression, and then revolution would come from there. No need for a leader really, perhaps an organizer or a facilitator who is but one among equals. Something like that.


I am sure other people will have different ideas, which are probaly just as valid or invalid as mine.

-Pete

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

There is nothing like organizing a revolution on a board where most people arent communist anyways, and our plans and identities are free for the all the world to see.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 12:50 AM
There is nothing like organizing a revolution on a board where most people arent communist anyways, and our plans and identities are free for the all the world to see.
well put

[AryaN BLitZKrieG]

Let's do it!!!!











;)

[hobosexual]

i wouldnt talk revolution but if you wanna organize tha troops this would be a perfect place, meaning, getting ppl to join your cause. the more ppl that see it the better i guess, but plz dont be stupid and talk shit like what got the rage board shut down... sigh. but plz, give those nazi fucks something to worry about.

[@[email protected]@]

The expression is the motion!

[Looter]

I think the revolution is preceeding along just fine. It should be more a matter of getting Socialists in the West to stop dreaming and start thinking about reality for a change. No one has to teach the people of Iraq how to rise up and win their freedom, rather they are showing us, and people in the West have a lot to learn. If you look around the world the people are rising up and taking power everywhere. Sadly in the West Socialists are mired in Chauvinism and Petty Bourgeoise idealism, fighting over the Dustbin of History, and if you ask them about reality they say they are against it because it shows them how irrelevant all their pontification is. Try thinking about reality for a change, and try to develop ideas that relate to the real world. Without the interaction between reality and our ideas we never grow and develop, So think about the real World and develop ideas that explain why the world is the way it is and not just what your opinion of reality is.

[Kez]

is a great place to find contacts and go discuss in real, then go from there

[Danish]

Capitalism has run its course before the revolution can begin.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Okay, heres the plan, buy a couple AK-47's storm the white house and keep the entire first family hostage until Bush goes commie, hows that sound?

[Al Creed]

I find two things wrong with that proposal.

First of all, terrorism and extortion are NEVER the ways to go about gaining social change. Holding people, even Bush's family, hostage and demanding a government change is no more justified than the Invasion of Iraq (As in, it's not really justifiable at all, at least in my opinion).

Second of all, the roots of Capitalism and Conservatism are deeply engrained in the Character of George W. Bush and his Aministration. To force these people, all hard right-wingers, to "go commie," is like asking the probverbial leopard to change its' spots.

Remember, in 11 months, there will be a presidential election. Dpending on the Candidate for the Democratic party (hopefully it will be either Dean, Kucinich or Sharpton,) the possibility to elect George and his friends is there...pending he doesn't rig the election this time.

Just Remember, not ALL Revolutions are brought about by Violence.

[Miss Guevara]

What i think that we should do is chain ourselfs to some ralings outside the white house and not eat or anything, and maybe then arrange for bush to talk with us, and try to come to some kind of arangement....but tell him to come unarmed...if he be's a dick, get someone to shoot him!

[hobosexual]

Okay, heres the plan, buy a couple AK-47's storm the white house and keep the entire first family hostage until Bush goes commie, hows that sound?
if he be's a dick, get someone to shoot him!
dude, that is just what i was fucking talkng about. you guys are idiots. do you really think that is a good idea? to resort to terrorism? god damnit...

[gawkygeek]

the time for violent revolutions has ended, the constant insurgency will no longer serve it's intended purpose, ppl cannot constantly start revolutions or call for them and be expected to be taken seriously. the only chance for the communist world to be born is through reform and simple evolution. starting a revolution or even intending to will simply create another red scare at which point we would all once again have to hide and cover ourselves from the public, further setting back the progress of the world.

[Kez]

no wonder your called gawkygeek

[RedAnarchist]

Hes right though. Look what the rote armee fraktion did to the German Left. They were ruined for ages.

If parties on the left here in the UK were more willing to unite, then they could eaily gain power. The last thing we need here is a Tory government, beacause it would just be a catalyst for a BNP governmnet.

[FistFullOfSteel]

If we gonna start a revolution,we have to get weapons,good stamina,plans etc

[DEPAVER]

The United States and the world are confronted with several serious issues, but foremost is our current system of military Keynesianism and the constant expansion of capital. In my opinion, this system is directly responsible for driving the world to the point of social and environmental destruction.

It's a systemic disease that causes a host of secondary infections, including, but not limited to rampant consumerism, a host of environmental disasters and millions of deaths.

As activists, we sit around a lot and think about how to cure this disease, but we don't always agree on its severity or treatment options. That's fine, but I believe most of us believe that, overall, the current system is a problem, and if we don't make significant changes, we will perish. So, how do we move from our present society to a new, sustainable society that maximizes freedom and democracy? How do we create a society that does not produce waste faster than can be dispersed by natural biological and geophysical cycles? Can we really change our current system into what we want and into what is needed for all life, human and non-human?

I don't believe you can, because despite the obvious inequities that it sustains, capital and the powers that protect it are too deeply entrenched.

There are basically three choices:

1. We keep working within the current system and hope for change. Do you really believe that there is any hope the current duopoly can or would provide the type of leadership we need to get us out of this mess? Do you believe for a second that the power structure that benefits so greatly from the advancement of capital is going to slow the machine down? It won't. Our capital machine requires constant growth and its thirst for resources can't be quenched.

2. We overthrow the existing society and replace it with our own. How much sense does it make to even attempt to overthrow the existing government and power structure? It makes no sense whatsoever and would never work, because you can't create democracy from the top down; that's antithetical to the function of a democracy.

3. We turn our backs on the existing society and build our own in our preferred image.

I propose we make an Aikido move and use the force of the current violent and destructive government to bring about its own end.

If we choose option number two and start building our own society based on decentralized, locally controlled free association and mutual aid, we disperse the power previously concentrated by the state among the people, and we withdraw that power and support from the central state making it irrelevant. We organize along bioregional lines and create our own local economies within those bioregions.

Change starts between the ears. It means that all of us do our part as individuals to help bring about bigger changes at varying levels. We quit doing what doesn't work, and we become the change we wish to see. We don't have to live in communes, we just simplify and consume less. We cherish what works, resist and refuse. We can use existing institutions like food cooperatives and neighborhood associations. We can redefine companies and make them employee owned enterprises where all employees have a voice and an equal opportunity to advance and prosper, not just the few at the top of the food chain. We can focus on local production and local consumption without becoming root diggers wearing animal skins.

Otherwise, all you're doing is wasting energy, swimming upstream and preparing to drown.

[hobosexual]

that mite not work. first off the government will definitly resists any attempt to change the current one. and they are the ones with the army and the most power over the ppl at this point. secondly to do what you are proposing takes a lot of support. most of these ppl arent just goin to jump at the chance of starting a new gov. i kno a lot of ppl and i can only say like 1/20 of them arent ignorant and the other 19/20 are totally ignorant to what is goin on and dont even care for change. they are to comfortable to what is goin on now. if you want to ppl to join your cause and do what you are saing your gonna have to do or show them something big to change their minds. its not a simple or easy thing to do. just facts alone doesnt work anymore. in modern day society nobody cares. everyone knos smoking is bad for you and yet there will always be smokers. they do what feels good for them instead of what is good for them.

[praxis1966]

Isn't this the fifty-thousandth time this thread has started by a newbie? The real revolution can only be achieved from within. We need educated people, especially lawyers. At least in the U$, the real legislative power is concentrated in the judicial system. If you really want to overthrow the current administration, the way to do it is by judicially eradicating their legislation.

I admire your passion, but raw angst is not the way to go. You're either going to end up in solitary confinement or a grave. Just remember, the best way to fuck up a building is by setting the bomb off inside, not outside.

[hobosexual]

unless you do something like... fly a plane into it. i thought that took the building down pretty fast.

[communistbutter]

1.XPhile2868 i definatly wouldnt like a tory government again....one of the reasons my family had to move from England to America....

2.DEPAVER your statement
I propose we make an Aikido move and use the force of the current violent and destructive government to bring about its own end.
is quite interesting? So your sugesting that we reverse their power back at them? allow ourselves to flow into their moves and almost become one with them and then return all there negative energy right back at them? Maybe a nice Nikiyo would do ( aikido move....sorry if you dont know what it is).....
This seems like a good idea to me....I doubt that any kind of revolution in america will occur in the next 20-30years...Before such ideas can be used the government has to begin to loose its power ..like a ll superpowers....they rise and fall...and eventually America will fall.... If we cna catch America just as it begins to fall..we can use peaceful protest (no guns...) and well thought out ideas and plans. If the rest of the people see that a possible better future can arise from these ideas...then maybe a revolution can happen..but right now...Most of the American people dont feel opresssed and they find theyre situation ot be okay..so it would be probably useless to try and do anything for a couple of years(especially from the internet...come on...its not a very strong place to start at all).....
And the idea of trying to shoot the president...jeez ....come on...that'll start people thinking of communists, anarchists, socialists and others as violent people thatll stop at nothing to get there way..we'll be potraying a Stalin and Moa (spelt his name right?) world all over again.....
All in all..patience, planning, and timing is needed to pull of such a revolution....shooting things...or just telling people to rise up agasint their govenrment..wont do squat....
As the African American society did when they felt their rights were being taken away from them..they rose in peaceful protest and fougth for what they believed in...no guns...no violence....and what did they get? Rights. Maybe A political revolution can follow in their footsteps. :)

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 08:31 AM
So your sugesting that we reverse their power back at them? allow ourselves to flow into their moves and almost become one with them and then return all there negative energy right back at them? Maybe a nice Nikiyo would do ( aikido move....sorry if you dont know what it is).....
This seems like a good idea to me....I doubt that any kind of revolution in america will occur in the next 20-30years...Most of the American people dont feel opresssed and they find theyre situation ot be okay..so it would be probably useless to try and do anything for a couple of years
Finally, someone gets this!

You are correct, Americans don't feel oppressed. At least not enough of them, and that is one of many reasons why an "old fashioned" revolution won't work.

So, what will work? What should we do doing?

If we decide to adopt the strategy of turning our backs on the state and building our own society based on decentralized, locally controlled free association and mutual aid, we disperse the power previously concentrated by the state among the people, we withdraw that power and support from the central state and we do not directly confront the power and authority of the state, thereby alarming its defense mechanisms.

A friend of mine lived in Alaska and learned from an Athabaskan from Koyukuk that when you go hunting for bears you never brag beforehand that you are going out hunting and you never stand in front of the bear's den and poke around inside with a stick. Athabaskans have a name for people who do this:
the deceased.

Our long-term strategy is to build our ideal society from the ground up, from the local to the regional, dispersing power among ourselves so there is no avenue for the concentration of power, never confronting the state face-to-face, never poking it with a stick. As our community of communities grows, we draw off power from the state, at the same time that the inherent contradictions of capitalism, the unsustainable nature of industrial capitalist growth and the growing irrelevancy of the corporate dominated central government weakens the state from within. The coming crisis of energy production will also place a great economic strain on the state which will be compensated for by strengthening the economic system of the growing anarchy/democracy.

It will undoubtedly be necessary to counter violent oppression from the state from time to time. This may not always require a violent response; in fact we should resist any form of violent response as much as possible, as this legitimizes the use of violence by the state, as we have seen at recent antiglobalization protests. Particularly toward the end of the process, when supporters of the state are most desperate to maintain control, violent oppression by the state may necessitate a violent response in self-defense. Nothing in anarchist theory rules out the use of force in self-defense, but it must always be an ad-hoc response, only as strong as necessary and immediately disbanded when the task of defense is accomplished.

The use of force, even in self-defense is a risky undertaking. Once the necessary concentration of power is accomplished and shown effective, it is very difficult to disband. This must be thoroughly examined and planned by all members of the society at all levels of society before such an action is attempted. It may be considered better to use non-cooperation and civil disobedience rather than resort to a concentrated military response.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by AryaN [email protected] 5 2003, 02:39 AM
Let's do it!!!!











;)
umm just looking at the name... could ou just quicky explain your ideology to me, before i get worried.

[Kez]

WE dont turn to reformism or terrorism, they are both avenues for the capitalists to crush us.

What we do is mass mobilisation of workers to be against the government, with this you can hold a general strike, and if the government still doesnt go, you use trade unions to arm workers to shoot capitlaists.

end of story

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2003, 07:37 AM
Okay, heres the plan, buy a couple AK-47's storm the white house and keep the entire first family hostage until Bush goes commie, hows that sound?
yeah i doubt that,very good..then shot bush...............

[communistbutter]

WE dont turn to reformism or terrorism, they are both avenues for the capitalists to crush us.

What we do is mass mobilisation of workers to be against the government, with this you can hold a general strike, and if the government still doesnt go, you use trade unions to arm workers to shoot capitlaists.


hmmm...its a nice idea....but not likely to happen....as i said before...people are okay with their lives right now....theyre just beginning to sense that something is maybe a little wrong with how the government works.......and A mass organization of workers.....its no longer the eglightenment period.....and theres nothing strongly opressing the people (like religion back then) so....we may have it out....
but i sugest is...almost what you state DEPAVER...but i think a time is needed..history has to run its course...but while we wait...we really need to decide....what to do.....maybe teach people that not everyone ideas of communism is like Stalin's or Moa's....we really are just working towards a better society for more poeple...a society where equals can live in not such a money controled enviroment....a place where they can get on with their lives....allowing them to express themselves in self interest...like art,math, etc....But if we think a place that will become a 1st world country. and a super power....not likely..maybe a second world country..... like Sweden (well sort of)....this would be a more pluasable idea....
Anyways (back to the main point) as i said before..we teach people or ideas....and then we set up some stable system thats quiet..but when a "revolution" occurs.... we wont get cuahgt into a 4-5year period of chaos. A good Aikidoist understand that a strong base and low center is need above most things..and someone who is throwing themselves at their enemy, will only end up on the ground hurt....And i do agree that we should establish people inside the government...maybe not strong beleivers of Communism or Socialism but..people who will understand what we are "fighting" for....that way we can have some control as to how the government collapses...(heres comes another aikido statement)...when doing aikido...an opponent is controlled on how he falls...so as not to hurt him....just like the People of America should be....they cant be blamed for a government..or trying to live their lives...not
if the government still doesnt go, you use trade unions to arm workers to shoot capitlaists.
..thats just hating people for theyre political beliefs.. .and wanting to kill anyone who follows it....instead we should try to protect them while helping them learn. (aikido stament #4! or 3)..a good fall is needed to not hurt yourself...a bad one can me lethal.... we shouldnt hate people for such silly reasons and beleive all people following those ideas shuld die....man...hitler thought that...and tried to whipe out a race of people
once all this is done...then peopel can begin to work towards a "revolution" ....guns and masses and violence and rioting realy doesnt fix such a big government that is the Super power of the world....
Im not sure how to deal with the military though...maybe itll collapse as it falls...but im sure that the USA will try enforce the government at that time with the military..maybe if we use the constituition agasint them and say that we shouldnt be opressed by the military we can stop if from cuasing a problem...i dunno..any sugestion on that part?

[j.guevara]

lenin's revolution was sponsored by wall street. who do you think would sponsor you guys? no one.

[communistbutter]

i dont think anyone at the this time would...well not many "big" and "important" people whould....since theyve got nothing too looose with the system...maybe later...yes..almost definatly alot of people will want change...if the system is faulting

[hobosexual]

i disagree. we should wait until the current government fucks itself up and eventually falls? bad plan, that could take a very long time. and in that time its gonna cause a lot of damage. to other countrys and to the environment. you can just keep letting these ppl like bush continue to gain power and hope that oneday they will lose it all. i kno itll happen but when it does its not gonna be pretty. its hard to rebuild a nation. and my worse fear of all, what if the current government ends up wasting the world, once the rich ppl have enough money and influence why do they feel like they have to follow the law? you can already see them bending the rules just cause they can. imagine what it'll be like in the next 20 years. it could become another dictatorship, and how many lives will they ruin before its done? how long will it take them to spread their seed through out the entire world. if we wait too long we mite miss our chance. its a shame to waste lives but they are already doin it. these capitalistic pigs lke bush and cheney kill thousands of ppl everyday and get away with it.at least in the case of a revolution these ppl wont be killed without a fight, and without ppl noticing them. im not saying that thats exactly what we should do but jesus christ, we gotta do something. i wont just stand by and watch this bullshit go and say to myself, oh, well we are gonna make it all better someday.

"its gotta start somewhere, its gotta start sometime
what better place then here, what better time than now?"

[communistbutter]

see..id agree if it wasn fr a couple reasons..if the governemnt begins to get out of hand..thats a sure sign that its beginning to collapse....and the time is coming around......also...there is a good saying from Catcher in the Rye to xplain what i think will happen if we just go throwing ourselves into some revolution


"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cuase, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."

if we go running around like a bunch of kids...waving guns and trying to change things...wer almost becoming the immature man....if we are humble and patient...maybe then we can sucede and with little consequences

[Jimmie Higgins]

I believe that the only goal for revolutionary socialism is working class self-rule of the government and production and out of that I do not think that either some cataclysmic chaos resulting in the destruction of the government or some political assasinations or induviduals blowing up government buildings will advance that goal.

If there was some natural disaster or a complete collapse of the capitalist economy when the working class was and working class organizations are weak, then people wouldn't be able to organize themselves to create a new government in their intrests because induvidual survival would be the main concern in a total destruction of society.

Right now, people don't automatically make class-oriented conclusions all the time (maybe here and there or if they have experience with class struggles) so why would people in an emergency think that anti-capitalism and class-solidarity is the solution?

As for assasinations and bombs, well people have done these things in the past and with the exception of giving the imperialist European powers an excuse to go at one another in WWI, assasinations have not achieved much social impact and certaintly have never lead to workers taking the role of the ruling class in society. Additionally, the problem is the whole system, not this or that politician with the job of trying, in his own vision, to maintain and promote that system.

I think "old fasioned" revolutions are the wave of the future and there are very dramatic things going on in South America where connections between workers struggles and struggles of indegenous people and peasant farmers and students are being made and people are learning the lessons of the recent past with each new wave of popular disgust and fight-back against capitalist institutions. The bourgoise will always be able to out gun us as long as they still controll the factories which produce the guns... we take that away from them and use it ourselves (all production, not just guns) and they have no power or force to controll us.