Conversion Success! (I think)

[The Jay]

I've been talking to this right-libertarian for months now getting him to investigate his own views. Two months ago I got this 'free-marketeer' to admit that a minimum wage could be a good idea (not a communist idea but it's more left of where he was). It went on with these kinds of small concessions over time but last night was probably the final nail in the coffin for his Ron Paulitis. He admitted that the current property rights give the rich more control over the government and monopolize the use of force through it. He also admitted that the system forces the rich to consume the poor. I got him to admit that a democratic system to determine how to use land/minerals/and water. I didn't go into the means of production because he hasn't figured out (at least I don't think) that I'm suggesting socialistic ideas. His conception of communism is an authoritarian hell-hole police state. Maybe in a week or two after further developing ideas with him, I'll tell him that he's a socialist :D.

[Left Leanings]

Nice one, comrade. I wish you every success, and it's well cool to see good people chipping away at the coal face out there :) :)

[Thirsty Crow]

Oh yeah, great, now you can go and feel goo about yourself. You did a great thing for the Cause.

Seriously people, stop treating this whole shit as if were a religion (conversion, seriously???).

[Manic Impressive]

Oh yeah, great, now you can go and feel goo about yourself. You did a great thing for the Cause.

Seriously people, stop treating this whole shit as if were a religion (conversion, seriously???).
you need socialists in order to create socialism

[Left Leanings]

Oh yeah, great, now you can go and feel goo about yourself. You did a great thing for the Cause.

Seriously people, stop treating this whole shit as if were a religion (conversion, seriously???).


And so he should feel good about himself. To be a revolutionary activist is to be a permanent persuader. Frankly, your post is counter-productive and hard to comprehend.

[Thirsty Crow]

And so he should feel good about himself. To be a revolutionary activist is to be a permanent persuader. Frankly, your post is counter-productive and hard to comprehend.
How is it hard to comprehend that I think such exercises in debate are merely self-indulgence and serve no other purpose than to ground this revolutionary activism in the notion of converting other politicized elements to the right doctrine?
Propaganda and open debate have their role to play, but I've seen many such instances on this board where it is perfectly clear that people mistake such debates, conversions, for what could be a productive activity - one's own education in revolutionary theory.

Also, I've never understood the obsession some comrades display in relation to libertarians.

But okay, sorry for the rant, I'm on my way out.

[Left Leanings]

How is it hard to comprehend that I think such exercises in debate are merely self-indulgence and serve no other purpose than to ground this revolutionary activism in the notion of converting other politicized elements to the right doctrine?
Propaganda and open debate have their role to play, but I've seen many such instances on this board where it is perfectly clear that people mistake such debates, conversions, for what could be a productive activity - one's own education in revolutionary theory.

Also, I've never understood the obsession some comrades display in relation to libertarians.

But okay, sorry for the rant, I'm on my way out.

Well what he has done, is to engage with a 'free-marketeer', an exponent of capital, and challenge his views. I think that is a worthwhile endeavour, especially since his friend now seems to have shifted his position.

There are many forms of activism. Self-education, seeking to educate others, propagandizing in the street via stalls, paper sales, attending demos and so on.

I don't see that it is self-indulgent to seek to engage and inform others. It's part of what activists have to do. And your post had a sneering quality. That's the element that was somewhat counter-productive above anything else.

[OHumanista]

Congrats, frankly I think there is nothing better than raising conciousness about socialism. I don't care if that is called "conversion" "preaching" or whatever. Most of us are just comfortable to watch things go, but I think a more "agressive" approach is healthy and necessary. While one person isn't a revolution or even close to it, it is still a small victory.

So yes, congrats, don't let it go over your head but it is good to hear about it :)

[The Jay]

Thanks everyone, I do feel good about it! Menocchio, I didn't mean conversion in the way that you seem to be thinking. What I meant was to say that I convinced someone that socialist ideas aren't bad and that they are even desirable. It was just more catchy to say conversion than a full sentence for a title. Just to be clear, I don't preach to people or try to make them join the Church of Communistic Servitude. I have conversations where I use rational argument.

On the other hand, I agree that some take loyalty to a party much too seriously, because we are all working towards revolution and there's a lot of hatred over specifics, though some are very divisive.

[thriller]

Oh yeah, great, now you can go and feel goo about yourself. You did a great thing for the Cause.

Seriously people, stop treating this whole shit as if were a religion (conversion, seriously???).

Yeah, totally. Fuck teachers too.
Religion requires you to 'have faith' and basically just accept it as truth without any evidence. Political views (at least firm belief) requires evidence and critical thinking to understand the full concept.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm trying to "convert" someone as we speak. It's over facebook but I'm totally killing this guy for the second time getting him to concede more and more ground every post. Anarcho-cappies are so funny aren't they?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Every time I engage a libertarian in debate they bury their heads so far up their asses it violets Uganda's anti-sodomy laws. Which was interesting because I totally kicked their asses in the actual debate.

I figure that I should argue more on my Occupy's Facebook wall with the liberal and libertarians but I just see little point in doing so to be honest; a day or so of painful corrections in which I end up repeating myself a hundred times against people that don't actually have a interest in learning isn't really my idea of fun.

Congrats though! Every person exposed to leftist ideology is a small victory. Though I would work on him more if I were you: I am pretty sure telling him that he is a "socialist" would freak him out right now.

[thriller]

Every time I engage a libertarian in debate they bury their heads so far up their asses it violets Uganda's anti-sodomy laws. Which was interesting because I totally kicked their asses in the actual debate.

I figure that I should argue more on my Occupy's Facebook wall with the liberal and libertarians but I just see little point in doing so to be honest; a day or so of painful corrections in which I end up repeating myself a hundred times against people that don't actually have a interest in learning isn't really my idea of fun.

Yeah, I don't bother trying to have debates online anymore really (other than sites specifically for political debate) because people are usually just trolling or completely skip my response because their too lazy/busy to read the whole thing (and of course their responses are usually a long the lines of: Merica, fuck yeah). No one likes anarcho-cappies though. Even tea-party people get pissed at them.

[The Jay]

Every time I engage a libertarian in debate they bury their heads so far up their asses it violets Uganda's anti-sodomy laws. Which was interesting because I totally kicked their asses in the actual debate.

I figure that I should argue more on my Occupy's Facebook wall with the liberal and libertarians but I just see little point in doing so to be honest; a day or so of painful corrections in which I end up repeating myself a hundred times against people that don't actually have a interest in learning isn't really my idea of fun.

Congrats though! Every person exposed to leftist ideology is a small victory. Though I would work on him more if I were you: I am pretty sure telling him that he is a "socialist" would freak him out right now.

I only talk to people about socialist concepts if I think that they're open minded enough, so I usually avoid all those that pull the ostrich move. I don't plan on telling him the views are socialist until he's comfortable with them. I've been discussing this off and on for months with him, I can wait a week or two.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Has anybody else ever realized that anarcho-cappies/libertarians base their whole entire argument solely on morals and how capitalism is supposedly so moral? It makes it so easy, especially against anarcho-cappies.

[ColonelCossack]

It's taken me nearly 5 years to nearly get 1 guy to bet sort of quasi-socialist,a nd even then he often comes out with pseudo-fascist and borderline racist/sexist "jokes". i'm shit.

[ColonelCossack]

Has anybody else ever realized that anarcho-cappies/libertarians base their whole entire argument solely on morals and how capitalism is supposedly so moral? It makes it so easy, especially against anarcho-cappies.

Anarcho cappies don't even have the mental capacity to even understand what they're saying. Their ideology is so fucking messed up, if you understand it you automatically see how moronic it is and stop being one!

[The Jay]

Update: He figured out that it was socialism that we were discussing. I thought that he would then reject the principles that he had previously agreed with, but surprisingly he did not. He said that he was now open to the idea but not fully convinced yet. I'll continue talking to him every couple of days to see what his thoughts are.

[honest john's firing squad]

you need socialists in order to create socialism
I was going to thank this post, thinking you were being sarcastic, then it occurred to me: you actually believe this for some reason.

[Dr Doom]

I was going to thank this post, thinking you were being sarcastic, then it occurred to me: you actually believe this for some reason.

yeh the spgb believe most of the worlds workers will have to become socialists before we can achieve socialism. which they think will happen through peaceful parliamentary methods. they arent called 'the impossiblists' for nothing.

[Manic Impressive]

I was going to thank this post, thinking you were being sarcastic, then it occurred to me: you actually believe this for some reason.
eh better than the Bordigist method, what was that again? do nothing wait for shit to happen then jump in as the vanguard of the revolution and lead the ignorant but angry workers to socialism. Fuck what the workers want or think because they're too fucking dumb to ever know what socialism is unless the superior Bordigist cult lead them to glory. Then what, you're going to sling an AK over your shoulder and head to the hills or call a general strike and watch people starve to death? yep really probable, good luck with that, let me know how you get on ;)

[Dr Doom]

do nothing wait for shit to happen

hahaa dude that was weak considering ur group of museum marxists believe the working class must have the 'message' drilled into their 'thick' heads before we can even begin to do anything.

[Manic Impressive]

hahaa dude that was weak considering ur group of museum marxists believe the working class must have the 'message' drilled into their thick heads before we can even begin to do anything.
That says a lot about you bro, if that's what you think of workers then it's probably best that you don't talk to them.

[Dr Doom]

its called sarcasm brah

[Positivist]

yeh the spgb believe most of the worlds workers will have to become socialists before we can achieve socialism. which they think will happen through peaceful parliamentary methods. they arent called 'the impossiblists' for nothing.

Yea fuck that why the hell would the working class have to be aware of the cause of their conditions and what changes in said conditions would lead to their improved state of being in order to establish socialism?! Clearly the revolution must be fought by a mass of angry workers who beat up the capitalists and then we'll just make all the changes in the organization and distribution of surplus value without telling them! It's not like they'd get it any way!
But in all seriousness how do you forecast a revolutionary movement will emerge absent the development of class conscioussness by the workers?

[Left Leanings]

its called sarcasm brah

Oscar Wilde wrote an excellent essay The Soul Of Man Under Socialism. He was also imprisoned by the ever-so-just, criminal justice system of capital, for his homosexuality.

One of Wilde's many adages was: sarcasm is the highest form of intelligence, but the lowest form of wit...

[bricolage]

That says a lot about you bro, if that's what you think of workers then it's probably best that you don't talk to them.

its called sarcasm brah
hmmm yeah, considering manic impressive's entire argument against 'the Bordigist method' (if that's even a thing) was snide sarcasm it seems a bit ridiculous to not see that in anyone else.