'Rich / poor rato' among leftists

[The Cheshire Cat]

I saw a thread some time ago that made me wonder if it is true that leftists are primarily poor. Maybe it's a little bit too personal, but if we would set a bar at a annual income from you or your family if your still young, like me, of about 100 000 dollars, how many of you would be poor and how many would be 'rich'?

Just curious how much we could expect from the the wealthier classes in case of a revolution.

[Offbeat]

Poor, assuming you're talking US dollars and not some very low-valued currency.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

100,000 seems a generous and high threshold, I'm scarcely past 10,000 equivalent.

(Chances of Prolier-than-thou battle are high in this thread.)

[ed miliband]

If one identifies proletarian with factory worker (or even worse: with manual labourer), or with the poor, then one cannot see what is subversive in the proletarian condition. The proletariat is the negation of this society. It is not the collection of the poor, but of those who are desperate, those who have no reserves (les sans-réserves in French, or senza riserve in Italian),who have nothing to lose but their chains; those who are nothing, have nothing, and cannot liberate themselves without destroying the whole social order. The proletariat is the dissolution of present society, because this society deprives it of nearly all its positive aspects. Thus the proletariat is also its own destruction. All theories (either bourgeois, fascist, stalinist, left-wing or "gauchistes") which in any way glorify and praise the proletariat as it is and claim for it the positive role of defending values and regenerating society, are counter-revolutionary. Worship of the proletariat has become one of the most efficient and dangerous weapons of capital. Most proles are low paid, and a lot work in production, yet their emergence as the proletariat derives not from being low paid producers, but from being "cut off", alienated, with no control either over their lives or the meaning of what they have to do to earn a living.


-- gilles dauve

[RedAnarchist]

US$100,000 is almost £63,000 so I would say we were nowhere near that mark. However, it would depend on whether a household had more than one person in full-time employment who contributed to the household finances - the average wage here is just over £30k for men and just over £24k for women (according to http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/salary-benefits/pay-salary-advice/uk-average-salary-graphs/article.aspx), which still doesn't reach the 100k/63k mark, but is much closer than one person's salary alone.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Growing up I lived in a apartment with one room. My sisters and I all slept in the bedroom and my mother and father slept in the living room. Then we stepped up to two bedrooms so nobody had to sleep in the living room! Then in my teen years we started to rent a house with three bedrooms in it so I got my own room! I have no idea what our income was/is, but I know my family has never made $100,000 in a year and we can barely keep what we have right now.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

if we would set a bar at a annual income from you or your family if your still young, like me, of about 100 000 dollars, how many of you would be poor and how many would be 'rich'?
The best job I ever had only paid a third of that. Right now, I'm living on $200 a month.

[MotherCossack]

i am skint.
i get income support ... but will soon have to go back to jobseekers allowance because my youngest is about to turn 7.
unless of course i pass or fail a medical, depending on your point of view.
life is hard.
what can i do...
it is 20 years since i worked properly.... and that was a failure....
who would employ me?

[Ostrinski]

I'm a middle class student. Hang me

[kashkin]

Yep, my parents are quite rich and my extended family is completely bourgeois. Time for the purges.

[Blanquist]

My income is in the low 6-figures.

I'm not ashamed of it, I studied and worked hard for it.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

My income is in the low 6-figures.

I'm not ashamed of it, I studied and worked hard for it.

Hell, I fucking hate that attitude, go fuck yourself.

[bcbm]

100000? ha i fucking wish

[Ele'ill]

My income is in the low 6-figures.

I'm not ashamed of it, I studied and worked hard for it.

I work pretty hard for the poverty line, what's up?

[bcbm]

studying isn't real work either students should be abolished

[Ocean Seal]

Me personally, not a lot, from work-study/part time job. but my parents provide me with housing and food, together they make slightly over six figures.

[Don't Swallow The Cap]

I come from a relatively poor family, from who I get no financial support. I make roughly 20K, most of which goes to paying for school/ loans.

[black magick hustla]

My income is in the low 6-figures.

I'm not ashamed of it, I studied and worked hard for it.

"work" and "deserving" have fuck to do with your fate, unless you are xtian and believe bedtime fairytales.


everybody deserves everything or nobody deserves shit can't quantify that bullshit

[black magick hustla]

studying isn't real work either students should be abolished

students are the lowest grade of human being. just a above being a french intellectual

[hatzel]

students are the lowest grade of human being. just a above being a french intellectual

Would a French intellectual student fit into either of these two categories or do they constitute a grade unto themselves?

[bricolage]

Would a French intellectual student fit into either of these two categories or do they constitute a grade unto themselves?
scum, sub human scum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Heybq1s79Y)

[a rebel]

Well my parents used to make 6 figures but being that my siblings and i were spoiled little brats and incredibly wasteful we didn't know or care. Then my dad died and shit went down hill. 2 and a half years later and many reality hits in the face here we are barely getting by. So yes i would say im poor

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

I qualify as rich, by these standards. Don't feel rich. I pay my mortgage, feed my family, pay for health insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, and try to save for retirement and college for my kids. Doesn't leave much at the end of the month. That being said, I am very fortunate. Came from a nice petite bourgeois family. Got a good education, and after a ten year "career" as a musician, I went to Grad school. I well understand that most of my "luck" was the luck of the circumstances of my birth.

But the world we live in is not acceptable. One of the main points of Marxism, by the way, is to optimize production. The point is not to be equal, the point is for everybody to have plenty -- to do away with generalized want.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I worked for a good bit after college, 35hrs a week, barely scraping in £9k annually. Quit that and went to Uni, now I have a little bit of money that I can make stretch pretty far since I'm used to living on small amounts. I grew up in a poor family (by western standards), my mother is disabled and my stepdad is a semi-self employed mechanic with an erratic income. Guess I was privilaged in other ways, I had an alright childhood, did well at school, and having a mechanic in the family is great for cheap cars and repairs, especially when you can pay with alcohol.

[kashkin]

I don't think it really matters where you came from (though it obviously does to some extent), what matters more is where you are going. Some Russian anarchists were born princes (Kropotkin and someone else, I can't remember).

[NorwegianCommunist]

I am not 18 yet and I live home. But I never got the same amount of stuff/things that my other Norwegian friends have during my childhood.
If I wanted a bike or a ps2 game I worked for it, unlike the other kids in my town.

Thats alright, but no classes would be better so that kids in the future might have it easier and don't have to use their spare time to get stuff others get for free.

;)

[OHumanista]

Middle class student. Prole class background.
So?

[Revolution starts with U]

i am skint.
i get income support ... but will soon have to go back to jobseekers allowance because my youngest is about to turn 7.
unless of course i pass or fail a medical, depending on your point of view.
life is hard.
what can i do...
it is 20 years since i worked properly.... and that was a failure....
who would employ me?

I would hire you (and Dodger if he wanted) to write my press releases. I feel like I'm reading a really abstract novel when I read your posts :D

Started off straight up prole; mom was stay-at-home, dad worked 12hr/6day at a factory. Then my mom went to college. Dad's still prole, but Mom is middle management. I was petite bourgiousie for about 5 years (running my own self-employment) but I was making >10k/yr doing some soul crushing work, so now I'm part of the unemployed labor reserve.

[NorwegianCommunist]

Middle class student. Prole class background.
So?

Me?

[Lolumad273]

What is the hatred for students? Is education bad?

Live with my dad who was unemployed for a year, now is employed. We live comfortably. American "middle class"

[hatzel]

What is the hatred for students?

Step 1: become a student.
Step 2: hang around with other students.
Step 3: answer your own question.

[Ostrinski]

What is the hatred for students? Is education bad?Most students are arrogant scum, in my exp.

Let this post be a demonstration:

Middle class student. Prole class background.
So?

[Lolumad273]

Hahaha, isn't that a generalization though? Surely not every student is arrogant

[Ostrinski]

Idk, I think most student leftists will admit to being arrogant. Hell I'm a student and I'm arrogant as fuck

[Art Vandelay]

Idk, I think most student leftists will admit to being arrogant. Hell I'm a student and I'm arrogant as fuck

I am a student and am not arrogant, quite the opposite actually.

[kashkin]

In my experience, not only are students arrogant (including yours truly), but they are some of the most apathetic or right-wing people around. I've barely met any students who are social democrats, most people just don't care or they're libertarians.

[hatzel]

I am a student and am not arrogant, quite the opposite actually.

How very arrogant of you to so vehemently deny your own arrogance. Trying to make out like you're better than the rest of us or something?

[Art Vandelay]

How very arrogant of you to so vehemently deny your own arrogance. Trying to make out like you're better than the rest of us or something?

You saw right through me..

[Nox]

Are you fucking kidding? $100,000 is rich, as in very rich. It should be $50,000.

[Nox]

My father's house earns roughly the equivalent of $120,000 and we live very comfortably even though at his house there's 7 people living there

My mother is on the dole (DOLEYS FTW)

(my parents are separated)

I earn fuck all because since discovering Marxism I can't be fucked to get a job or do anything tbh

[Franz Fanonipants]

bmh being a self-hating everything itt

anyways i made 8 grand last year working two jobs it owns

[Misanthrope]

I work pretty hard for the poverty line, what's up?

The laborer will always "work" harder than the professional. Criticizing someone for their income on a basis of "rich" or "poor" is complete liberal nonsense. The more communist doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers and so forth; the better.


Hell, I fucking hate that attitude, go fuck yourself.

Albeit he did sound a bit snobby and insensitive but people should not be treated with such contempt man.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Albeit he did sound a bit snobby and insensitive but people should not be treated with such contempt man.

No, anyone going on those hogwash liberal tirades about how fucking grand they are because of their hard studying and time spent drunk in university fraternities deserve all the fucking contempt they can get. Those smug bastards. Had one just like it in class back in school. One day he started arguing about how the people doing rubbish pick-ups were useless and shouldn't get paid much at all because they had not spent enough time getting education (how he knew their educational level of course, remains a mystery) and said that, unlike a policeman, who spends many years in training for his oh-so-benevolent mission, the people doing rubbish pick-ups are expendable and non-important. Even the teacher there present argued against this - but then again, I suspect that teacher was a commie. Still, fuck that attitude.

[black magick hustla]

bmh being a self-hating everything itt


says the self hating white boy

[black magick hustla]

The laborer will always "work" harder than the professional.

i think its pretty stupid to try to quantify "who works harder" and it smacks of workerism. a lot of professionals and petit bourgeois work generally much more than the 40h week. have you seen the shifts some doctors have? how do you quantify that? maybe the laborer gets to burn more calories, i guess. "working hard" doesn't make you entitled to shit.

[00001]

says the self hating white boy

But he is a mexican whiteboy TM so it doesn't count, oh wait

[Misanthrope]

No, anyone going on those hogwash liberal tirades about how fucking grand they are because of their hard studying and time spent drunk in university fraternities deserve all the fucking contempt they can get. Those smug bastards. Had one just like it in class back in school. One day he started arguing about how the people doing rubbish pick-ups were useless and shouldn't get paid much at all because they had not spent enough time getting education (how he knew their educational level of course, remains a mystery) and said that, unlike a policeman, who spends many years in training for his oh-so-benevolent mission, the people doing rubbish pick-ups are expendable and non-important. Even the teacher there present argued against this - but then again, I suspect that teacher was a commie. Still, fuck that attitude.

you catch more flies with honey than vinegar although I agree with the general attitude that hard work and determination will make you 'successful'
in capitalism is bullshit and egotistic.

sorry for your trauma from social interactions with your peers; we all have to put up with that shit.


i think its pretty stupid to try to quantify "who works harder" and it smacks of workerism. a lot of professionals and petit bourgeois work generally much more than the 40h week. have you seen the shifts some doctors have? how do you quantify that? maybe the laborer gets to burn more calories, i guess. "working hard" doesn't make you entitled to shit.

As was the point of the quotation marks. There is no clear, fair or anyway to judge one's contribution to society therefore all ought to be entitled. You cannot quantify work in a socio-economic sense. "Working and studying hard" are such vague statements they have no room for debate or discussion. Social mobility is extremely low within capitalism but should not be viewed as ideological treason.

[Raúl Duke]

I come from a "middle class" background. Combined, my parents would make something, pre-taxes, almost reaching or surpassing 100,000 a year, depending on a few factors (bonuses, my father's bonus is dependent on sales; in the past he would almost always get a good bonus due to being the #2 top-selling region-but the economic crisis ended this).

By my 3rd-and especially in my 4th year of college I live a lifestyle closer to "urban working class," I'm broke most of the time, I live in a cheap apartment on the border to the slums (and will be living in a house in a slummy "suburban-like" area soon). However, this is mostly due to me being unemployed...if I had more sources of income (like a job) I would probably be doing pretty well but these days I feel closer to the impoverished class (right not I'm having difficulties paying the dental bills) rather than the middle class with their bourgie values and prejudices. But I've been having an unreasonably hard time finding a job.

But I'm a college student and I guess at some level we're arrogant as fuck. :D

[Dogs On Acid]

Students have been at the front of many progressive movements.

Quit hating. You are essentially putting aside a large portion of future workers with that crap.

[Luc]

Students have been at the front of many progressive movements.

Quit hating. You are essentially putting aside a large portion of future workers with that crap.

not to mention alot of students do work too

[Dogs On Acid]

Also Bourgeois class analysis is a load of shite.

What exactly defines "Middle Class"? It's vague.

[black magick hustla]

death to student apologists

[arilando]

studying isn't real work either students should be abolished
You arent being serious right?

[ColonelCossack]

i am skint.
i get income support ... but will soon have to go back to jobseekers allowance because my youngest is about to turn 7.
unless of course i pass or fail a medical, depending on your point of view.
life is hard.
what can i do...
it is 20 years since i worked properly.... and that was a failure....
who would employ me?

And I'm her son so I'm even poorer than her!!!!

I feel like a snob... for being poor... how weird...

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

My parents make about 90,000 a year.
I don't have a job, so whenever im in need of money I ask them.

[ColonelCossack]

I come from a "middle class" background. Combined, my parents would make something, pre-taxes, almost reaching or surpassing 100,000 a year, depending on a few factors (bonuses, my father's bonus is dependent on sales; in the past he would almost always get a good bonus due to being the #2 top-selling region-but the economic crisis ended this).

By my 3rd-and especially in my 4th year of college I live a lifestyle closer to "urban working class," I'm broke most of the time, I live in a cheap apartment on the border to the slums (and will be living in a house in a slummy "suburban-like" area soon). However, this is mostly due to me being unemployed...if I had more sources of income (like a job) I would probably be doing pretty well but these days I feel closer to the impoverished class (right not I'm having difficulties paying the dental bills) rather than the middle class with their bourgie values and prejudices. But I've been having an unreasonably hard time finding a job.

But I'm a college student and I guess at some level we're arrogant as fuck. :D

The "middle class" doesn't exist. Sure there's a "middle strata" of incomes, or whatever you want to call it, but making that a class ion itself totally abandons Marxist class analysis. There is only bourgeois and proletarians.


Here is a relevant extract from the Communist Manifesto;


In the earlier epochs of history, we find almost everywhere a complicated arrangement of society into various orders, a manifold gradation of social rank. In ancient Rome we have patricians, knights, plebeians, slaves; in the Middle Ages, feudal lords, vassals, guild-masters, journeymen, apprentices, serfs; in almost all of these classes, again, subordinate gradations.

The modern bourgeois society that has sprouted from the ruins of feudal society has not done away with class antagonisms. It has but established new classes, new conditions of oppression, new forms of struggle in place of the old ones.

Our epoch, the epoch of the bourgeoisie, possesses, however, this distinct feature: it has simplified class antagonisms. Society as a whole is more and more splitting up into two great hostile camps, into two great classes directly facing each other — Bourgeoisie and Proletariat. (my italics)

[Left Leanings]

My dad was a window cleaner, and earned less than £9,000 a year, but it varied depending on how good/bad the weather was. Mum stayed at home to look after me and my bro. When I turned 15, she got a job as a shop assistant, first on a stall in an indoor market, then later in a chemists. Don't know how much she earned, but the hourly rate would have been pretty shit (Thatcherism - and all that).

I am the first person in my family to go to university. I was lucky enough to get a full grant cos of low parental income/savings.

Regarding students being arrogant. Some were, and some weren't. Some of them looked down on me cos of my manual background, or at least it felt that way. But a lot of them, even though they were privileged and well-to-do, were good people.

I hung out with a lot of left-wing students. I was close to the SWSS, and most actually came from a similar background to me, and seemed quite cool and friendly. I was still in the Labour Party at that time, and so used to attend the Labour Club as well. I didn't do so for long, cos they seemed toffee-nosed and full of themselves to me.

Before going to uni, I did a stint as a clerical worker in a factory, and got £2.50 per hour. After uni, I worked as a care assistant for 3 months, and got paid, I think, about £3.16 an hour. The work was temporary and came to and end.

After this, my health deteriorated, and I have not worked for fucking years. I get sickness and disability benefits, and with all the tops-ups etc, I get just over £13,000 a year. Which is pretty good, cos it's a lot better than many people in work to be honest.

Also, the council have given me a flat, and I don't have to pay any rent or council tax.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I make 6 figures, and my job is day trading.

I've never worked a day in my life. Lucky me.



What exactly defines "Middle Class"? It's vague.
Petit Bourgeoisie.

[Blanquist]

My dad was a window cleaner, and earned less than £9,000 a year, but it varied depending on how good/bad the weather was. Mum stayed at home to look after me and my bro. When I turned 15, she got a job as a shop assistant, first on a stall in an indoor market, then later in a chemists. Don't know how much she earned, but the hourly rate would have been pretty shit (Thatcherism - and all that).

I am the first person in my family to go to university. I was lucky enough to get a full grant cos of low parental income/savings.

Regarding students being arrogant. Some were, and some weren't. Some of them looked down on me cos of my manual background, or at least it felt that way. But a lot of them, even though they were privileged and well-to-do, were good people.

I hung out with a lot of left-wing students. I was close to the SWSS, and most actually came from a similar background to me, and seemed quite cool and friendly. I was still in the Labour Party at that time, and so used to attend the Labour Club as well. I didn't do so for long, cos they seemed toffee-nosed and full of themselves to me.

Before going to uni, I did a stint as a clerical worker in a factory, and got £2.50 per hour. After uni, I worked as a care assistant for 3 months, and got paid, I think, about £3.16 an hour. The work was temporary and came to and end.

After this, my health deteriorated, and I have not worked for fucking years. I get sickness and disability benefits, and with all the tops-ups etc, I get just over £13,000 a year. Which is pretty good, cos it's a lot better than many people in work to be honest.

Also, the council have given me a flat, and I don't have to pay any rent or council tax.

I had no idea the UK had such a generous welfare system.

[ed miliband]

Students have been at the front of many progressive movements.

Quit hating. You are essentially putting aside a large portion of future workers with that crap.

i'm a student: students are scum

[Left Leanings]

I had no idea the UK had such a generous welfare system.

Well I am not on a 6 figure salary like you lol.

If you have a serious and substantial disablilty, then the various top-ups can bring you to about minimum wage. But most social security claimants, those on Job Seekers Allowance, milder forms of disability, do not receive anything approaching generous benefits.

[RedAnarchist]

In 2014, my father will have been a postal worker for forty years. My mother had quite a few jobs in her short life (she had a kidney disease that has killed off a lot of people on her side of the family and still affects a lot of my relatives even now, including my sister and one of my brothers) such as a cleaner, worker in a tongue factory, worker in a cotton mill, helping out at the primary school my siblings and myself went to and so on.

[Dogs On Acid]

Petit Bourgeoisie.

Middle Class is not Petit Bourgeoisie.

Bourgeois class distinctions aren't based on the relationship to the MoP.

[black magick hustla]

how many students do u need to change the bulb

answer:

none iu just make em write a thesis aobut how bulbs are gendered and represent vaginaes of minorities

[Stadtsmasher]

I am not rich by the definition the OP sets, but I don't consider myself particularly poor, either. I have everything I need. :) And as a resident of the first world, however lowly my status it cannot compare to the sufferings and privations of our brothers and sisters in the third world.

I like to think that "rich" and "poor" are not categories that apply to true leftists because we are working for a society that ultimately moves beyond this type of distinction, so to call yourself rich or poor is already to be buying into capitalist modes of reality construction. I understand this is a bit churlish and doctrinaire, and not reflective of the OP's intention, but I still think it needs to be said. :D

[Le Libérer]

how many students do u need to change the bulb

answer:

none iu just make em write a thesis aobut how bulbs are gendered and represent vaginaes of minorities

Infraction for trolling.

[Raúl Duke]

The "middle class" doesn't exist. Sure there's a "middle strata" of incomes, or whatever you want to call it, but making that a class ion itself totally abandons Marxist class analysis. There is only bourgeois and proletarians.


Here is a relevant extract from the Communist Manifesto;


I already know (thus the "" around the words "middle class" shows how I think the term is questionable) and I've read the Manifesto, just for the purposes of indulging the initial question (which is income based, putting a cap of what is 'poor' at $100,000) I use the term.

In strict theoretical sense, I've always been more or less a part of the working class in relation to the means of production.

This thread has been lacking on reading comprehension; I would like to say that I believe all the "death to students" talk is sarcasm and some who are saying it are probably also college students, don't take it very seriously it's just self-denigrating humor and/or criticisms of other segments within college student population (we've all met pretentious asshat college students, they're scum).


i'm a student: students are scum