Did the West defeat Fascism ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Americans seem to think that that the United States of America and the Western World defeated Fascism and the Fascist Nations of Germany Italy and Japan is this true or did the Soviet Union defeat them ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UdLh_zsIrY

[l'Enfermé]

The Western Allies and the Soviet Union military defeated Germany and Italy, sure, but how was the defeat of Nazi Germany the defeat of fascism? For example, in Portugal, the fascist Salazar ruled until his death in 1970, in Spain, his Excellency Generalissimo Don Franco ruled until his death also, in 1975.

[Althusser]

Richard Nixon put a fascist dictator, Augusto Pinochet, in charge of Chile after he backed a fucking coup that murdered Salvador Allende, the first democratically elected marxist.

What I think you mean though is whether or not the west is responsible for crushing the axis powers in World War II. No actually. The Soviet Union played a huge role in defeating Germany. The soviet forces marched into Berlin, where Hitler subsequently shot himself. Soviet forces also liberated a number of concentration camps. The west tries to downplay the USSR's role because of the Cold War and all.

[Ostrinski]

They destroyed themselves.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Nope, the West adopted Fascism.

The USSR destroyed German, Lithuanian, Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish, Romanian, and Slovakian Fascism. Italian Resistance fighters, who were Communist, destroyed Italian Fascism. Fransisco Franco, of Spain, was first hated internationally, then became Best Friends Forever with the West in the '70s.

[l'Enfermé]

Nope, the West adopted Fascism.

The USSR destroyed German, Lithuanian, Latvian, Hungarian, Estonian, Finnish, Romanian, and Slovakian Fascism. Italian Resistance fighters, who were Communist, destroyed Italian Fascism. Fransisco Franco, of Spain, was first hated internationally, then became Best Friends Forever with the West in the '70s.
Why do you mean by Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian fascism? Are you saying the Baltic countries were fascist before they were occupied and annexed by the Stalinist regime in Russia? Karlis Ulmanis in Latvia for example, wasn't so fascist if you want to be honest, he actually persecuted and imprisoned fascists and banned the fascist party. Pats' regime in Estonia wasn't particularly fascist either, and neither was the Lithuanian Nationalist Union which was the ruling party from the late 20s until the Soviet occupation of the Baltic.

Perhaps it would do you well not to parrot Stalinist propoganda, invented to indirectly demonize genuine non-fascists that fought to free the Baltic from Stalinist occupation after the second World War ended.

[Misanthrope]

Fascism, like any political system based on imperialism, cannot be effectively maintained. The Russian winter and fighting on multiple fronts also played a major factor. As was pointed out, the West ironically instilled fascism in an effort against communism.

[OCMO]

Borz: Salazar due to illness was out of office since '68 being replaced by Marcelo Caetano, who arrived promising a more liberal regime. Nothing really changed and fascism only was terminated with the military coup of 25th April, 1974, thus beginning the Carnation Revolution.

[Bostana]

America did "help" defeat Fascist Germany.

However there is an old saying:
"Careful how you fight Monsters, lest you become one."

The West is Fascism

[Kitty_Paine]

I think the west has helped create more fascist states than anything.

[l'Enfermé]

Borz: Salazar due to illness was out of office since '68 being replaced by Marcelo Caetano, who arrived promising a more liberal regime. Nothing really changed and fascism only was terminated with the military coup of 25th April, 1974, thus beginning the Carnation Revolution.
Oh yeah, you're right. He had a stroke or something, right?

Kitty Paine: Well Germany was a central component of the "West", wasn't it? Italy was and is a part of the "West" also.

[Kitty_Paine]

Kitty Paine: Well Germany was a central component of the "West", wasn't it? Italy was and is a part of the "West" also.

I realize these countries were and are part of the "west". I was more or less making a general statement claiming that throughout the west's history these countries have helped establish more facist states than they have "defeated" through their imperialistic goals and actions. Some countries in Europe obviously being more guilty of this than others (and don't forget the U.S. of course).

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

There can be no doubt that the Soviet Union bore the brunt of the Nazi war machine, but to discredit the roles played by the western powers is ridiculous.

In regards to the OP, we definitely celebrate America's victory in WWII quite a bit (too much, some may say), but I for one have yet to see an attempt to airbrush the Soviet Unions role out of the history.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Why do you mean by Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian fascism? Are you saying the Baltic countries were fascist before they were occupied and annexed by the Stalinist regime in Russia? Karlis Ulmanis in Latvia for example, wasn't so fascist if you want to be honest, he actually persecuted and imprisoned fascists and banned the fascist party. Pats' regime in Estonia wasn't particularly fascist either, and neither was the Lithuanian Nationalist Union which was the ruling party from the late 20s until the Soviet occupation of the Baltic.
Estonia and Lithuania were still labeled as far-right Nationalist, during the period being referred to.
In Estonia, the Fatherland Union ruled. Enough said.
In Lithuania, the Lithuanian Nationalist Union ruled. Enough said.
In Latvia, all political parties were banned except Ulmanis'. I guess Latvia should be excluded from this group.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

To be far, I imagine the Fatherland and Nationalist parties got a lot of support from the "We're not Russians (dammit) and don't want to be ruled by Moscow" sentiment.

I think that sentiment would not be unjustified.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

To be far, I imagine the Fatherland and Nationalist parties got a lot of support from the "We're not Russians (dammit) and don't want to be ruled by Moscow" sentiment.

I think that sentiment would not be unjustified.

And in Germany a lot of support came because the nationalist parties said we will fight the evil bolshevik monster that threatens to infringe upon our superior nation.

Obviously justified.

:rolleyes:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

And in Germany a lot of support came because the nationalist parties said we will fight the evil bolshevik monster that threatens to infringe upon our superior nation.

Obviously justified.

That's an absolutely ridiculous comparison, based on what has been stated.

Really, the nationalism of these countries is probably similar to the nationalism that is very prevalent in Mexican culture and politics, for instance. A nationalism born and raised in opposition to a dominant nation that has used it like a vassal state (after picking of the parts it wants, in Mexico's case) for centuries. Notice I speak in the present tense, because all the Baltic states as well as Mexico seem to have a healthy amount of fear, and anger, for their powerful neighbors that exists to this day.

[Per Levy]

The West is Fascism

no its not and it would be nice if you could stop saying something so wrong.

[AntifaArnhem]

Russia was the biggest player in defeating Germany, they could have done that a lot quicker if Stalin wasn't such a paranoïde fuck and didn't kill his militairy top a few years before WWII.

As for the fascist uprising in Spain, the west is guilty there because of doing nothing to stop General Franco. On the other hand if the Communists and Anarchist would have worked together they would be more than able to stop the Fascists, however Stalin forbid the Commies to work with Anarchists and Anarchists where not that willing to work with the Commies after Kronstadt and the betrayel of Machno during the Russian civil war.

[MotherCossack]

i think that there was an alliance against germany.... yep...
believe it or not we all got in pairs and kind of did it togetherish..... although it was overwhelmingly the ussr that finished them off.
it was great.... a common enemy.... comrades in arms....
except that afterwards.... what a predictably shoddy thing to do...
the west rewrote the story..... hey those nasty, red commies....
we never fought on the same side as them..... did we?
oh dear... better keep that one quiet.... it'll never do!oh no no no no!

[Doflamingo]

The west never defeated fascism. They did help implement fascism all over the world though, in an effort to "contain communism within its borders."

Ironically, they were implementing the same fascism that the state capitalist "communist" countries were trying to implement. Imperialism from the U.S at its finest really.

[l'Enfermé]

Estonia and Lithuania were still labeled as far-right Nationalist, during the period being referred to.
In Estonia, the Fatherland Union ruled. Enough said.
In Lithuania, the Lithuanian Nationalist Union ruled. Enough said.
In Latvia, all political parties were banned except Ulmanis'. I guess Latvia should be excluded from this group.
Because fascism can be said to be a type far-right Nationalism, it doesn't neccesarily mean that all far-right nationalists are fascists. I honestly wouldn't call any of the Baltic States, during the inter-war period, "fascist". In the 1930s fascists were generally persecuted and imprisoned and weren't treated any better than communists in the Baltic, but I will admit it's mostly because the Baltic states were afraid to become German satellites and fascists weren't exactly anti-German and anti-Italian.

Anyways, do you actually support the occupation of the Baltic states by the Stalinist regime?

[l'Enfermé]

Russia was the biggest player in defeating Germany, they could have done that a lot quicker if Stalin wasn't such a paranoïde fuck and didn't kill his militairy top a few years before WWII.

As for the fascist uprising in Spain, the west is guilty there because of doing nothing to stop General Franco. On the other hand if the Communists and Anarchist would have worked together they would be more than able to stop the Fascists, however Stalin forbid the Commies to work with Anarchists and Anarchists where not that willing to work with the Commies after Kronstadt and the betrayel of Machno during the Russian civil war.
Seriously? Anarchists began their assassination and terrorist campaigns against the Bolsheviks in 1918, and if I'm good with numbers, 1918 comes before 1921. Kronstadt has nothing to do with the fact that a large fraction of the Anarchists practically fought on the side of the counter-revolution during the Russian Revolution and the Civil War.

[La Comédie Noire]

The Soviets did a lot of the fighting, but that's not to diminish the role of the allies.

But then the allies started putting ex-fascists in power and killing communists. Americans really have no idea how much their government shaped post war Europe.

[Valdemar]

Americans seem to think that that the United States of America and the Western World defeated Fascism and the Fascist Nations of Germany Italy and Japan is this true or did the Soviet Union defeat them ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UdLh_zsIrY

The west was pretty late with Day D. Day D happened in 1944, soviets during that time were already winning/advancing toward Germany. Soviets already fought intensely for 3 years!

If you compare that to France, France (+Belgium+Netherland+UK) only fought for 10 of May to 25 of June! After 25 of June France surrenders.

So its fair enough to say that Capitalist West made invasion when everything was already "over". They made invasion only not to give over Europe to Soviet Union. (scientists, industry, technology, resources, sphere of influence etc.)

So in conclusion, no West did not defeat Germany Soviets killed them, and western capitalist joined at end to rip the rewards.

[rednordman]

There can be no doubt that the Soviet Union bore the brunt of the Nazi war machine, but to discredit the roles played by the western powers is ridiculous.

In regards to the OP, we definitely celebrate America's victory in WWII quite a bit (too much, some may say), but I for one have yet to see an attempt to airbrush the Soviet Unions role out of the history.I think the main reason people discredit (or more like water-down) the west role in winning ww2 is that so many people in the west completely erase the soviet unions role as if they where some kind of bystander.

In fact some places you could get called a 'communist' simply by stating the the SU did some good things in defeating Nazism. Other places, you wonder if they thought we actually lost the war, and would rather have had Hitler won.

One thing i will say on this is that of the liberation of Auschwitz. The rumor is that the USA where actually first there, but saw pure hell, left straight away, lock it and threw away the key. Then the Russians liberated it without any knowledge that the Americans where ever there.

I only found this out last week from my brother who visited the site on a business trip to Poland - a country that definitely is not warm to Russia and its history.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The Soviets did a lot of the fighting, but that's not to diminish the role of the allies.

But then the allies started putting ex-fascists in power and killing communists. Americans really have no idea how much their government shaped post war Europe.

Or Asia.


I think the main reason people discredit (or more like water-down) the west role in winning ww2 is that so many people in the west completely erase the soviet unions role as if they where some kind of bystander.

In fact some places you could get called a 'communist' simply by stating the the SU did some good things in defeating Nazism. Other places, you wonder if they thought we actually lost the war, and would rather have had Hitler won.

I hear a lot of people stating that the winter is what did the Germans in, as though the entire German advance froze to death. Needless to say, this reasoning really annoys me when it's brought up as an explanation.

[AntifaArnhem]

Seriously? Anarchists began their assassination and terrorist campaigns against the Bolsheviks in 1918, and if I'm good with numbers, 1918 comes before 1921. Kronstadt has nothing to do with the fact that a large fraction of the Anarchists practically fought on the side of the counter-revolution during the Russian Revolution and the Civil War.

I really don't want to get dragged into this discussion again but for christ sake, if you read my post properly you should have seen i mentioned Machno first, before Kronstadt. And yes it is true Machno fought against the Red Army in the Russian civil war (he fought the White Army aswell though) but only after Trotsky betrayed Machno's partisan armies by calling them contra revolutionaries. Fact is that Trotsky used Machno's partisans untill his own Red army was strong enought to take them out.

Your statement that the Anarchists fought alongside the counter revolutionaries is simply untrue. Did they have a different agenda? Ofcourse they did, they're anarchists and not communists. But implying that they fought alongside the White Army is simply rewriting history!

Fact remains that Stalin ordered the communists in Spain to not work together with anarchists, should they have done otherwise they had a slight chance to win the Spanish civil war. And for the record, I do not think the communists are to blaim for Franco's victory but they had part in it to say the least... As seen in my previous post the ones to blame are the western countries who didn't do anything about the fascist uprising and their genocides against the political left fractions/parties/unions etc. etc.

[gorillafuck]

the fascists states that arose during the time between WWI and WWII were defeated by the allies, which includes both America and the USSR.

[Geiseric]

Why didn't Makhno set up an SSR in Ukraine? From what I understand he was pretty much the head of the de facto state of the Ukraine Free Territory, even though he was in theory anti workers state?

[OCMO]

Oh yeah, you're right. He had a stroke or something, right?

Kitty Paine: Well Germany was a central component of the "West", wasn't it? Italy was and is a part of the "West" also.
Actually, his downfall began quite literally, falling from a chair.:lol:

[DinodudeEpic]

America and the USSR contributed the most to the war.

Although, I would rather be with the Western Allies then a Stalinist Soviet Union.

So, the Western Allies did do half the work in beating Fascism. (And did 90% of the work in defeating Reactionary Japan.)

[Geiseric]

America and the USSR contributed the most to the war.

Although, I would rather be with the Western Allies then a Stalinist Soviet Union.

So, the Western Allies did do half the work in beating Fascism. (And did 90% of the work in defeating Reactionary Japan.)

They contributed to its rise so communism would be defeated and then they lost control of their own beast so to speak.

[Orlov]

The defeat of the German fascist war machine and it's cronies in Italy, Romania and throughout Europe was the collective action of partisans from their native lands resisting fascist occupation, the USSR who's millions who had died fighting the fascist menace, the United States who was apart of a united front with the USSR against German fascism, Britain and various others who laid down their lives in order to resist fascism.