Anders Breivik declared sane

[ColonelCossack]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17663958



A second psychiatric evaluation of Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring Breivik has found him sane enough to face trial and a jail term.
The findings contradict a previous evaluation, published in November, that found him legally insane.
Breivik is due to stand trial on Monday over a bomb attack and shooting spree last July that killed 77 people.
Both reports will be considered by the court when it decides whether he should be sent to a psychiatric ward or jail.
The second evaluation was approved by a court in January following widespread criticism of last year's assessment that concluded he was psychotic at the time of the attacks and diagnosed him as a paranoid schizophrenic - meaning he would most likely be detained in psychiatric care.
Many of his surviving victims believed he was sane, and that the only proper punishment would be a prison sentence.
'Crusade' "Our conclusion is that he is not psychotic at the time of the actions of terrorism and he is not psychotic now," psychiatrist Terje Toerrissen, who carried out the second assessment with fellow psychiatrist Agnar Aspaas, told the Associated Press.
[/URL] Breivik's victims





Eight people killed and 209 injured by bomb in Oslo
69 people killed on Utoeya, of them 34 aged between 14 and 17 including Eva Kathinka Lutken (above)
33 injured on Utoeya
Nearly 900 people affected by attacks



[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14260297"]How the attacks unfolded (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17663958#story_continues_2)


The full report is confidential, and the two psychiatrists will give their reasons for arriving at a different conclusion to the first team of experts when they testify during Breivik's trial, AP reports.
The 33-year-old was charged with terror offences last month.
Prosecutors said at the time they were prepared to accept that he was criminally insane and would therefore seek compulsory psychiatric care, but they reserved the right to alter that view if new elements emerged about his mental health.
The latest assessment is likely to be welcomed by Breivik and his lawyers.
Breivik has always insisted he is mentally stable, admitting he carried out the attacks and saying they were an atrocious but necessary part of a "crusade" against multi-culturalism and Islam - but denying charges of terrorism.
In a recent letter to Norwegian tabloid Verdans Gang, he said being sent to a psychiatric ward would be a "fate worse than death".
"To send a political activist to an asylum is more sadistic and more evil than killing him!" he wrote.
News of the latest evaluation comes just six days before Breivik's 10-week trial is due to start.
If the court concludes that he was sane at the time of the killings then Breivik could face 21 years in prison with the potential for indefinite extensions to his term as long as he is considered a danger to the public.
Mostly teenagers The attacks on 22 July last year were the worst act of violence Norway has seen since World War II, and have had a profound impact on the country.
Breivik disguised himself as a police officer to plant a car bomb that exploded close to government offices in Oslo, killing eight people and wounding 209.
Still in uniform, he then drove to the island of Utoeya, where a summer youth camp of Norway's governing Labour Party was being held.
In a shooting spree that lasted more than an hour, he killed 67 people - mostly teenagers - and wounded 33, while a further two people died falling or drowning.
According to prosecutors, nearly 900 people were affected by the two attacks - 325 in Oslo and 564 on Utoeya.


Hopefully this will mean he'll have a worse time.

[Thirsty Crow]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17663958
Hopefully this will mean he'll have a worse time.
Actually, this potentially means that the most common way of depoliticization - insisting on the psychological illness - is shattered.

[Revolutionair]

Actually, this potentially means that the most common way of depoliticization - insisting on the psychological illness - is shattered.

Yes. Which could potentially be helpful to us. If only society asks the 'why'-question so we can start pushing nationalist propaganda back.

[Althusser]

ehh... in Norway they'll probably just give him a slice of cake and send him on his merry way.:glare:

[seventeethdecember2016]

Let's replace Breivik with a Workers' Revolutionary. Said Revolutionary has killed 70+ people for being what he described as Bourgeois. Is that factitious gentlemen insane?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

ehh... in Norway they'll probably just give him a slice of cake and send him on his merry way.:glare:

Blargh blargh hurrhurr why aren't norwegian prisons so inhumane as our proud american ones hurrr, bread and water and rat-stuffed bunk beds for everyone:rolleyes:

One of the main reasons they sought to declare him insane is that they could that way keep him locked up permanently, whereas a prison sentence is limited (and now they are looking to allow longer sentencing just to accommodate this).

[MotherCossack]

it is beyond me!
why would anyone do that?
i remember at the time a feeling of overwhelming respect for the lawyer assigned to defend him......
he came across as a man of intense principal whose strongly held beliefs in the principal of justice were central to his ability to defend the indefensible.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

ehh... in Norway they'll probably just give him a slice of cake and send him on his merry way.:glare:

Yeah, that is sort of what I was thinking. He should be sent to an American jail, or even better; an Iranian jail.

I do not think compassion is an option in this case (I really never think it is, anyways).

[Ostrinski]

ITT: conservative weirdos

[MotherCossack]

american prisons are, if nothing else, proof that the american response to crime has been unhelpful... and the policies employed to deal with it, a monumental failure.

lock em up and treat em mean..scare any other bums from doing the same.....
well, clearly doesnt work does it.

[MotherCossack]

not that i am advocating anything remotely pleasant for this particular murdering bastard.....
it is tricky.... but i suspect that there is yet to be a punishment severe enough to fit this crime.
maybe he should be tried at the hague... for crimes against humanity.

[Althusser]

I wasn't being serious. That's the problem with text on the internet... it's cold and you get no tone of voice. Those prisons are very successful. That being said, the longest Norwegian sentence is 21 years and hotel ro - I mean, prison cells look like thishttp://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/140/140433/14043337/jpg/active/960x.jpg

[Revolutionair]

Let's replace Breivik with a Workers' Revolutionary. Said Revolutionary has killed 70+ people for being what he described as Bourgeois. Is that factitious gentlemen insane?

Well if this workers' revolutionary decided to gun down bourgeois kids on an island with no chance of them escaping, definitely yes.

[Rafiq]

He isn't insane, and this should be a disturbing yet curious fact that the Left must come into terms with. This is the reality of racism in Europe.

[Thirsty Crow]

Let's replace Breivik with a Workers' Revolutionary. Said Revolutionary has killed 70+ people for being what he described as Bourgeois. Is that factitious gentlemen insane?
That's a completely meaningless exercise.
Clinical insanity cannot be determined by lofty speculation solely based on one act (as is the case with Breivik; one can commit horrid acts without being insane, and in fact, to believe that one must be insane to do such things is an ideological way of justifying certain kinds of behaviour).

[Left Leanings]

Irrespective of whether Brevik is sane or not, there is no doubt that he will be taken out of circulation for a hell of a long time. And rightly so. The most worrying issue here, is the ongoing growth and development of the neo-nazi elements of the far-right, and the nature and character of some of its supporters.

As it continues to grow, will there be more like him. In Britain a few years back, we had the bad bomber who blew up a bar frequented by LGBT people.

[Yefim Zverev]

SO ANDREAS BREIVIK CAN WRITE ON REVLEFT ? GOOD I GOT COUPLE OF STUFF TO SAY THAT Vous avez le corps d'un chien et le QI d'une durée de cinq ans Vous êtes une pomme de terre avec le visage d'un cochon d'inde

[Game Girl]

I wasn't being serious. That's the problem with text on the internet... it's cold and you get no tone of voice. Those prisons are very successful. That being said, the longest Norwegian sentence is 21 years and hotel ro - I mean, prison cells look like thishttp://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/140/140433/14043337/jpg/active/960x.jpg

Thats a prison cell?! It looks like a bloody apartment bedroom! I'd wanna sleep in that!

[Rafiq]

A norwiegan cell won't be successful for a self rightious worm like Brevik.

[Yefim Zverev]

A norwiegan cell won't be successful for a self rightious worm like Brevik.

He must taste russian cells or mexican drug mafia cells or some middle eastern... to wake him up and convert him to a proper socialist hehe

[rednordman]

Thing that pisses me off about this, being half norwiegan, Is being told by people who don't have a fucking clue about the country, that it has a huge Nazi problem, and everyone is racist...All because of one maniac fanatic.

Like it or not, the level of repulsion not only to his actions but also to his ideas was on a very bold scale. Right-wingers where equally as shocked and appalled as left-wingers. It was such a bad crime for the country to deal with that it almost changed the law so he could go to prison for life. This was actually one of the reasons behind declaring him insane. It meant that they could keep him under surveillance, and kept away from society, for the rest of his life.

[Krano]

Hes trial is still going on? firing squad on day one after admitting guilt would have been the proper punishment.

[dodger]

Thank you Rednordman, insight, can't even bring myself to use his name. There are 2 diagnosis, conflicting, no doubt the powers that be wish to keep all options open. What I have observed there seems to be a progressive force in the prison system that seeks to reform the prisoner. That principle must be protected. Mad, bad or a psychopath, a true assessment must be made and the country must seek to find closure and full chance for bereavement and healing. Doing the right thing can aid in that process. In truth I don't think whilst Norwegian War-planes are involved with bombing countries like Libya people can allow themselves to be distracted by this fiend. A forlorn hope . I just hope he is locked away and forgotten about .

[bricolage]

Thats a prison cell?! It looks like a bloody apartment bedroom! I'd wanna sleep in that!
no you don't, because you'd be sleeping in a prison ffs.

[GPDP]

My gut instinct wants to see him lying in a ditch, covered in petrol, on fire (kudos for those who get the quote). My sensible side, however, says we should avoid implementing policies that he himself would advocate for those he opposes.

So his prison cell isn't the maggot-infested hellhole he deserves. That alone is a small victory over this slimebag and the vile venom that passes for his politics.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I fucking hate this guys smug attitude about the whole thing. He obviously just doesn't give a shit. I'm surprised none of the victims family has tried to avenge their loved ones by killing this guy. I mean I was expecting hm to be lynched by a mob by now, which I wouldn't mind at all.

[Zukunftsmusik]

he isn't declared sane, he's declared responsible for what he has done, meaning that the two new psychiatrists don't think we can blame what he has done on his personality disturbances (or whatever it's called). Because obviously he is insane, at least in the popular definition of the word. The argument here isn't whether he's insane or not, but whether he's so insane that he can be seen as not responsible for what he's done.

[Rafiq]

He must taste russian cells or mexican drug mafia cells or some middle eastern... to wake him up and convert him to a proper socialist hehe

No, I don't think "Harsh Prison" will do anything but ideologically strengthen him. He isn't to be catagorized amongst the likes of the common criminal, i.e. He's a fairly intelligent and sane individual who did not butcher those young for emotional reasons.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

he isn't declared sane, he's declared responsible for what he has done, meaning that the two new psychiatrists don't think we can blame what he has done on his personality disturbances (or whatever it's called). Because obviously he is insane, at least in the popular definition of the word. The argument here isn't whether he's insane or not, but whether he's so insane that he can be seen as not responsible for what he's done.

This sort of legalistic nonsense is always stupid, however. People who believe in these culture-war things and want to defend the European Homeland against the "muslim hordes" or whatever are obviously detached one way or another from reality and have issues of perception and understanding. I don't think that a disturbed person who is aware of his actions is any different from one who is utterly demented and chants rituals to unseen associates. And even a person condemned to treatment or internment is held responsible for what has been done.

Part of this re-trial comes both on his own insistence and the insistence of those deluded souls who are unaware of the fact that people sentenced to forced mental care for crime generally serve twice as long as a common criminal in a regular jail.

What they really should do, to get at him bad, is to refuse him any attention whatsoever. That, I think, would be the worst thing that could happen to him, because he is so hungry for attention, it's frankly the only thing he seems to care about. Dresses gaudy during trial hearings so he can get another note in the newspapers, gets discussed. Media silence on him would hurt him more than anything, and would likewise make it less likely that we'd see worshippers who end up seeing the scum as a martyr and feel inspired.

[Thirsty Crow]

he isn't declared sane, he's declared responsible for what he has done, meaning that the two new psychiatrists don't think we can blame what he has done on his personality disturbances (or whatever it's called). Because obviously he is insane, at least in the popular definition of the word. The argument here isn't whether he's insane or not, but whether he's so insane that he can be seen as not responsible for what he's done.
People who have been diagnosed as clinically insane are not legally responsible for their actions and therefore can't face criminal sentences.
This is exactly what has happened, the other psychiatrist is of the opinion that Breivik is not insane. There is no degree here to be discussed.
And it's not at all obvious that he is insane (by whatever this vague notion of popular definition of insanity - when this "pupular" definition is by itself ideological).

[MotherCossack]

. Mad, bad or a psychopath, a true assessment must be made and the country must seek to find closure and full chance for bereavement and healing. Doing the right thing can aid in that process. In truth I don't think whilst Norwegian War-planes are involved with bombing countries like Libya people can allow themselves to be distracted by this fiend. A forlorn hope . I just hope he is locked away and forgotten about .

here here.
especially where libya is concerned.
how come it is easier for people to hate individuals who do mass brutal killings.... than the far more powerful and far more potent force for bad; which is the many governments that commit the same heinous crimes but always on a much larger scale.
i think i know why....

[MustCrushCapitalism]

I wasn't being serious. That's the problem with text on the internet... it's cold and you get no tone of voice. Those prisons are very successful. That being said, the longest Norwegian sentence is 21 years and hotel ro - I mean, prison cells look like this

brb robbing a bank in Norway

[bcbm]

my bedroom is nicer than that norwegian prison cell but being locked in it for 20 years wouldn't be much fun. critical thinking - try it!

[La Comédie Noire]

I think he should be charged as a political terrorist with the heaviest charge possible for that distinction.

Now while it's a horrible crime and a huge tragedy, we don't need to roll up our selves and start foaming at the mouth.

[Luís Henrique]

Let's replace Breivik with a Workers' Revolutionary. Said Revolutionary has killed 70+ people for being what he described as Bourgeois. Is that factitious gentlemen insane?

Completely insane.

And not "revolutionary" at all.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Thats a prison cell?! It looks like a bloody apartment bedroom! I'd wanna sleep in that!

But the question is, would you want to be confined to that for 20 years?

The punishment is deprivation of liberty, not deprivation of dignity. Or so it should be.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Hes trial is still going on? firing squad on day one after admitting guilt would have been the proper punishment.

And then we don't understand why the left isn't popular...

Luís Henrique

[Sly]

Him being declared sane means he'll just get a longer jail sentance... I guess thats good in a way.:confused:

[Left Leanings]

Hes trial is still going on? firing squad on day one after admitting guilt would have been the proper punishment.


And then we don't understand why the left isn't popular...

Luís Henrique


But the question is, would you want to be confined to that for 20 years?

The punishment is deprivation of liberty, not deprivation of dignity. Or so it should be.

Luís Henrique

Brevik's political views and motivations are repugnant, and his crime horrendous. Nevertheless, now he is safely contained, following his prosecution and conviction, he should continue to be detained in a secure and humane setting.

[Nox]

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/140/140433/14043337/jpg/active/960x.jpg

My dream is to commit a crime in Norway and go to one of their prisons.

[Zukunftsmusik]

People who have been diagnosed as clinically insane are not legally responsible for their actions and therefore can't face criminal sentences.
This is exactly what has happened, the other psychiatrist is of the opinion that Breivik is not insane. There is no degree here to be discussed.
And it's not at all obvious that he is insane (by whatever this vague notion of popular definition of insanity - when this "pupular" definition is by itself ideological).

As far as I know, there isn't any set definition of "sane" or "insane", clinically. The new psychiatrists (they're two) say that he has personality disturbances, isn't that considered "insane"?

Regarding your last remark, could you elaborate what you mean? By "popular definition" I was referring to what's considered normal and acceptable by society. I can see how this is ideological, but how is it "not at all obvious that he is insane"?

EDIT: Just found out that the norwegian word I translated with "responsible" also could be translated with "sane". Are we talking over each others' heads here?

[bricolage]

My dream is to commit a crime in Norway and go to one of their prisons.
no it isn't.

[Zukunftsmusik]

What they really should do, to get at him bad, is to refuse him any attention whatsoever. That, I think, would be the worst thing that could happen to him, because he is so hungry for attention, it's frankly the only thing he seems to care about. Dresses gaudy during trial hearings so he can get another note in the newspapers, gets discussed. Media silence on him would hurt him more than anything, and would likewise make it less likely that we'd see worshippers who end up seeing the scum as a martyr and feel inspired.

Here I think you're absolutely correct. The media circus is exactly what he wants.

[dodger]

INSANITY DEFENCE OR TEMPORARY INSANITY LAW IS NOT IN USE IN NORWAY. The defendant if deemed mentally ill is sent for treatment. That seems reasonable. He has shown he is fit to plead and defend himself with the aid of lawyers. Personality disorders covers such wide ground, without further info it is pointless for me to comment further.

[Krano]

And then we don't understand why the left isn't popular...

Luís Henrique
Fair trial for a person who killed 70 kids? no thank you.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

No mercy! Execution! Execution!

I'm not joking. If he is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to be guilty, kill him. It is a little thing called called justice. He killed 77 people and destroyed the lives of many others. Should he not at least lose his one life for that many people killed?

[Zukunftsmusik]

No mercy! Execution! Execution!

I'm not joking. If he is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to be guilty, kill him. It is a little thing called called justice. He killed 77 people and destroyed the lives of many others. Should he not at least lose his one life for that many people killed?

how on earth will killing him bring about "justice"? how will the loss of his life bring back the lives of the 77 people he killed?

[Bronco]

Bit dumb to see leftists desperate for tough justice and moaning about how soft prisons are, shouldn't we be more interested in the conditions that inspire a person to carry out an attack like this and not just blindly calling for the State to be given the power to execute a man, that's just a knee jerk emotional response that won't solve anything. Some of the views in this thread would be more at home on a Conservative forum

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

how on earth will killing him bring about "justice"? how will the loss of his life bring back the lives of the 77 people he killed?

Perhaps it will prevent some other people from doing the same thing and spare the lives of possible future victims. Christian terrorists aren't as audacious as Islamic terrorists. Most Christian terrorists are actually scared of dying. You never see a Christian terrorist blowing up an abortion clinic with a suicide bomb (not that one kind of terrorist is better than the other).

Kill him. No prison.

[Bronco]

Perhaps it will prevent some other people from doing the same thing and spare the lives of possible future victims. Christian terrorists aren't as audacious as Islamic terrorists. Most Christian terrorists are actually scared of dying. You never see a Christian terrorist blowing up an abortion clinic with a suicide bomb (not that one kind of terrorist is better than the other).

Kill him. No prison.

Oh yeah, because capital punishment has been shown to be such a good deterrent

[Krano]

Perhaps it will prevent some other people from doing the same thing and spare the lives of possible future victims. Christian terrorists aren't as audacious as Islamic terrorists. Most Christian terrorists are actually scared of dying. You never see a Christian terrorist blowing up an abortion clinic with a suicide bomb (not that one kind of terrorist is better than the other).

Kill him. No prison.
Isn't that the point of Christianity? to die so you can go to paradise.

[dodger]

This individual craves publicity, this we know. His desire to wear a crown of thorns and self portrayal as a martyr must be denied to him, also. Lets not even speak his name.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Isn't that the point of Christianity? to die so you can go to paradise.

Yeah, but they have shown to be not as excited about death as other terrorists.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Yeah, but they have shown to be not as excited about death as other terrorists.

Suicide is taboo, but as most religions are death-cults, someone else murdering them is something that many fundamentalists will embrace. This nutter would just view it as him sacrificing his life for European culture or some such nonsense.

[Thirsty Crow]

As far as I know, there isn't any set definition of "sane" or "insane", clinically. The new psychiatrists (they're two) say that he has personality disturbances, isn't that considered "insane"?
I'm not sure that we're agreeing on facts here.
The psychiatrists diagnosing him earlier declared him insane and thus unfit to be taken legally responsible for his actions.
The other one overturned this assessment and assessed him as fit for trial and sentencing - this, for all our purposes, declaring that he is not insane.

I'm no psychiatrists, but when speaking about "personality disturbances" we might notice that this doesn't necessarily represent a diagnosis that would declare him insane and thus unfit for trial.


Regarding your last remark, could you elaborate what you mean? By "popular definition" I was referring to what's considered normal and acceptable by society. I can see how this is ideological, but how is it "not at all obvious that he is insane"?It's precisely not obvious since what you call "popular definition" is in fact a moral judgement - and not a psychiatric judgement. Thus, for insatnce, homosexuality might as well be considered as evidence of insanity in certain societies. It's not obvious since there is a conflict over the way we conceive of insanity.


EDIT: Just found out that the norwegian word I translated with "responsible" also could be translated with "sane". Are we talking over each others' heads here?
Possibly.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Suicide is taboo, but as most religions are death-cults, someone else murdering them is something that many fundamentalists will embrace. This nutter would just view it as him sacrificing his life for European culture or some such nonsense.

Exactly. Killing him would just fulfill his dreams of becoming a martyr.


I'm not sure that we're agreeing on facts here.
The psychiatrists diagnosing him earlier declared him insane and thus unfit to be taken legally responsible for his actions.
The other one overturned this assessment and assessed him as fit for trial and sentencing - this, for all our purposes, declaring that he is not insane.

I'm quite confident now that I've misunderstood both the norwegian word for "sane" (because it resembles words such as "responsible") and the meaning of the words "insane/sane". I think you're correct.



It's precisely not obvious since what you call "popular definition" is in fact a moral judgement - and not a psychiatric judgement. Thus, for insatnce, homosexuality might as well be considered as evidence of insanity in certain societies. It's not obvious since there is a conflict over the way we conceive of insanity.

I see now, and agree. Thanks for the correction.

[bcbm]

I'm not joking. If he is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to be guilty, kill him. It is a little thing called called justice. He killed 77 people and destroyed the lives of many others. Should he not at least lose his one life for that many people killed?

death is an easy out and gives him his martyrdom while denying any chance for redemption, which even the worst among us has a chance at. your concept of 'justice' is simply vengeance.

[NorwegianCommunist]

The prison cells in Norway are pretty good.
Many say it's because Norway has so much money. Partly that and the fact that they want prisoners to rehabilitate, and become better when they come out again (Life sentence is 21 year) I don't think Breivik is ever going to loose his Anti-left views, so he will never get out of prison.

This man shows no regret and has nearly not been in a bad mood ever since he was taken by the police, so he will probably never get out. The best lawyer in Norway was at my school recently and talked about this =)

[dodger]

The prison cells in Norway are pretty good.
Many say it's because Norway has so much money. Partly that and the fact that they want prisoners to rehabilitate, and become better when they come out again (Life sentence is 21 year) I don't think Breivik is ever going to loose his Anti-left views, so he will never get out of prison.

This man shows no regret and has nearly not been in a bad mood ever since he was taken by the police, so he will probably never get out. The best lawyer in Norway was at my school recently and talked about this =)

I have every confidence that Norwegian people will make their voice heard. They will not allow this murderer to set an agenda for them. We must all respect their wishes at this most terrible of times. Terrible enough to have harboured this person amongst you, best that you never mention his name again. He has nothing to say. If we all ignore him then he is silenced for good.
If he needs medical treatment these can be administered. The public must be protected. His Crusader army has vanished it seems, somehow people will have to move on from this terrible tragedy.

[Yazman]

Of course it is far easier for people to label men or women who do things like Anders Behring Breivik when they are labelled as mentally ill, when in reality this plays into two things; the stigma that many mentally ill people face, that they are somehow more prone to violence than those who aren't mentally ill - which just isn't true at all.

As well as the notion that an "ordinary well person" couldn't possibly commit atrocities! The reality is it's just easier to feel better about ourselves when we separate out people who commit atrocities, putting them into a different plane, "othering" them so to speak. But in reality, ordinary, rational human beings are completely capable of horrible things. Some of these people are mentally ill but plenty of them are not.

It's just easier for many people to deal with such things when the person happens to be different in some way.

As far as prison goes, anybody calling for him to be put into some sort of disgusting inhumane hellhole like in the US, really needs to rethink their position. The way prisoners there are treated is absolutely an atrocity in and of itself, and it doesn't improve society, and it doesn't truly help anybody.

All the violence, hatred, and oppression in the world isn't going to change what happened. Somebody doing something horrible isn't cause to do the same. An eye for an eye is very, very wrong imo. Incarceration, fine. But a person's crimes, no matter the severity, don't justify treating them like they are subhuman.

[Left Leanings]

Of course it is far easier for people to label men or women who do things like Anders Behring Breivik when they are labelled as mentally ill, when in reality this plays into two things; the stigma that many mentally ill people face, that they are somehow more prone to violence than those who aren't mentally ill - which just isn't true at all.

As well as the notion that an "ordinary well person" couldn't possibly commit atrocities! The reality is it's just easier to feel better about ourselves when we separate out people who commit atrocities, putting them into a different plane, "othering" them so to speak. But in reality, ordinary, rational human beings are completely capable of horrible things. Some of these people are mentally ill but plenty of them are not.

It's just easier for many people to deal with such things when the person happens to be different in some way.

As far as prison goes, anybody calling for him to be put into some sort of disgusting inhumane hellhole like in the US, really needs to rethink their position. The way prisoners there are treated is absolutely an atrocity in and of itself, and it doesn't improve society, and it doesn't truly help anybody.

All the violence, hatred, and oppression in the world isn't going to change what happened. Somebody doing something horrible isn't cause to do the same. An eye for an eye is very, very wrong imo. Incarceration, fine. But a person's crimes, no matter the severity, don't justify treating them like they are subhuman.

The idea that the mentally ill, even those who fall into the more 'severe' diagnostic categories, are inclined to violence, is firmly entrenched in the public consciousness.

Scare stories in the media, reporting on isolated cases of violent or dangerous acts carried out by a small minority of patients, do not help the matter.

All the research indicates, that peeps with mental health problems are in fact, many more times likely to be subjected to violence, than carry it out themselves. This is because when they are unwell, they can be confused and vulnerable, and can appear 'odd'. They can therefore attract the atention of predatory and bullying individuals.

The vast majority of peeps with mental health issues, are actually usually timid, shy and frightened people, even those who fall in the 'severe' diagnostic categories.

Most mental patients are treated by their General Practioner/Family Doctor. Very few are actually referred to the specialist doctor, the psychiatrist. Even then, they are treated on an out-patient basis at the clinic in their local general hospital. Hospital admissions are rare, and are mainly short-term and voluntary.

Detained patients (those 'sectioned' under the Mental Health Act) in the UK, are likewise treated on a psychiatric wing of their local general hospital, and usually for a short-time. Very, very few patients are detained in specialist secure hospitals.

Before becoming unwell myself, I actually worked with this client group. Prior to my interview, I was a bit apprehensive, cos I too was influenced by the myths surrounding mental distress. On starting work, I soon discovered how meek and mild most clients are, and that they are just like everybody else.

And concerning Brevik and his punishment, detention in humane conditions, definitely.

[Left Leanings]

Look at this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9203025/Anders-Behring-Breivik-to-claim-he-killed-77-people-in-self-defence.html

Believe it or not, Brevik intends to claim he killed people, because he was acting in "self-defence".

[MotherCossack]

This individual craves publicity, this we know. His desire to wear a crown of thorns and self portrayal as a martyr must be denied to him, also. Lets not even speak his name.

this is all there is to say....
he wants a reaction....infamy....attention.....our wrath.... he wants to wind us up... and cause arguments...
all these things we are delivering.... continue and the bastard... will be smiling all the way through the trial

[dodger]

My brother works with mentally ill people, he manages 2 residential homes. The staff are the major source of headaches he tells me. Almost never the patients. Over the years I have seen that to be the case.

[Fennec]

Look at this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9203025/Anders-Behring-Breivik-to-claim-he-killed-77-people-in-self-defence.html

Believe it or not, Brevik intends to claim he killed people, because he was acting in "self-defence".

A few days ago Breivik stated that he only regrets not killing more people.

[dodger]

A few days ago Breivik stated that he only regrets not killing more people.

Fennec...this fellow will be making one outrageous statement after the other.He will watch the ripples as he casts the stone. I for one am not goggle eyed. He has had his 5mins....next.

[honest john's firing squad]

Perhaps it will prevent some other people from doing the same thing and spare the lives of possible future victims.
the only deterrent to such future massacres is the complete abolition of the presently existing material conditions which fuel racism and nationalism. this is marxism 101.


Kill him. No prison.
there is literally no way to advocate anyone's execution (or imprisonment) at the hands of the state under the present bourgeois order without jumping on the moralistic and populist political bandwagon whose "tough-on-crime" rhetoric obviously occupies a special place in your heart. enjoy your rapid descent into the conservative movement you weirdo.

[Luís Henrique]

Fair trial for a person who killed 70 kids? no thank you.

So if he killed just 69, would he deserve a fair trial?

I mean, where do you draw the line?

And who decides who should get a fair trial and who shouldn't? What kind of "trial" would determine that?

Or do you mean that no murderer deserves a fair trial? If so, what is going to stop the State from indiscriminately killing people for just being perceived as murderers, with no actual discussion of the evidence (which is what a trial is for, first place?)

Seriously, you do not seem to want a better society; instead, you seem to wish we go back to the dark ages.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Bit dumb to see leftists desperate for tough justice and moaning about how soft prisons are

Well, the point where you are mistaken is that such people are no leftists at all. They are idolisers of State and police, and, as such, they are enemies of the left.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

No mercy! Execution! Execution!

I'm not joking. If he is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to be guilty, kill him. It is a little thing called called justice. He killed 77 people and destroyed the lives of many others. Should he not at least lose his one life for that many people killed?

It is not an option under Norwegian law.

Luís Henrique

[moulinrouge]

My brother works with mentally ill people, he manages 2 residential homes. The staff are the major source of headaches he tells me. Almost never the patients. Over the years I have seen that to be the case.

And what does that mean?
That the mentally ill can't be dangerous?

Anders breivik is mentally insane and if it's possible he needs to be rehabilitated.

The desire to punish people only makes things worse.

[Left Leanings]

Check this out:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/counter-jihad/

According to reports from the Hope Not Hate, anti-fascist organization, Brevik was heavily influenced by a movement of extremists, called 'Counter Jihad'.

[dodger]

And what does that mean?
That the mentally ill can't be dangerous?

Anders breivik is mentally insane and if it's possible he needs to be rehabilitated.

The desire to punish people only makes things worse.

It means dear moulinrouge exactly what I said that in my brothers residential home the staff were more problematic than the patients. I was setting out another comrades point and endorsing his view that demonising of the mentally ill is wretched. It is a very well run home. Only those deemed safe to themselves and to others are permitted to live there. It is not a jail. those deemed dangerous would be confined, elsewhere. He also manages a residential place for psychopaths and sociopaths. these people are potentially dangerous and are let out on Home Office license their condition is not mental illness hence not treatable. A carrot and stick approach, crudely put. Behave or go back inside, jail or secure institution.

on the matter of the killer it is quite possible he is a psychopath, narcissistic and no cure is possible since he is not mentally ill. Though what level of rehab might be achieved, heavens, I don't know..

The desire to punish only makes things worse...well put ,moulinrouge, agreed.

[dodger]

Check this out:

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/counter-jihad/

According to reports from the Hope Not Hate, anti-fascist organization, Brevik was heavily influenced by a movement of extremists, called 'Counter Jihad'.

Forgive me, but for the life of me, I can't see the importance of the reading material of a narcissistic psychopath might be. Does it have any true bearing on matters? Left Leanings.

[Left Leanings]

Forgive me, but for the life of me, I can't see the importance of the reading material of a narcissistic psychopath might be. Does it have any true bearing on matters? Left Leanings.

I see what you mean, Dodger.

All I was trying to do, was highlight another extremist group out there, cos I had never heard of 'counter jihad' before, and so wanted to bring it to peeps attention.

[Krano]

So if he killed just 69, would he deserve a fair trial?

I mean, where do you draw the line?

And who decides who should get a fair trial and who shouldn't? What kind of "trial" would determine that?

Or do you mean that no murderer deserves a fair trial? If so, what is going to stop the State from indiscriminately killing people for just being perceived as murderers, with no actual discussion of the evidence (which is what a trial is for, first place?)

Seriously, you do not seem to want a better society; instead, you seem to wish we go back to the dark ages.

Luís Henrique
I may have gone little too far with no fair trial, but 21 years in a hotel room? he should atleast spend the rest of hes life behind bars. Nazis were not rehabilitated they were sentenced, Breivik is well aware of what he did and should not get off with medical excuses either.

[Geiseric]

He doesn't regret what he did so killing him will only make us seem like Rick Perry. It's beating a dead horse. If anything we should force him to work at an Islamic community center, just embarass him and the rest of his Nazi cronies will bugger off into unimportance.

[Yazman]

Forgive me, but for the life of me, I can't see the importance of the reading material of a narcissistic psychopath might be. Does it have any true bearing on matters? Left Leanings.

Yes, it does have bearing on matters. Obviously we disagree with it but reading stuff like this is still important in regards to understanding his ideology. If you only have a passing interest in it then don't bother obviously but if this sort of thing, or even anti-fascism in general is more your interest then you should definitely take a look. "Know your enemy" and all.

[honest john's firing squad]

He doesn't regret what he did so killing him will only make us seem like Rick Perry. It's beating a dead horse. If anything we should force him to work at an Islamic community center, just embarass him and the rest of his Nazi cronies will bugger off into unimportance.
:rolleyes:

that's probably the best way to incite racial tension short of letting an angry mob of black and brown people have their way with him

[dodger]

Yes, it does have bearing on matters. Obviously we disagree with it but reading stuff like this is still important in regards to understanding his ideology. If you only have a passing interest in it then don't bother obviously but if this sort of thing, or even anti-fascism in general is more your interest then you should definitely take a look. "Know your enemy" and all.

Since I find myself in large part agreeing with your points,Yazman, yes know your enemy. With or without that killer such organizations need scrutiny or countering. Of course his 'friends' scurried away in hours "he was not an active member". Oh big liars. EDL for one. More mainstream party in Norway. another. Minus the pathology I think it would be of great use and speedy efforts, too. However we cannot be productive if we chase hares. It is not too far a leap that animal rights or eco org could 'attract' somebody of his ilk with tragic results. Once his pathology is established and we are all satisfied it is not political expediency. Then forget about him. Other fish to fry.

My brother deals on a daily basis with such people. Nice house in urban setting confinement or controlled release the only option. I will go out on a limb and say his 'ideology' was incidental. Perhaps I should just shut the **** up! What does any of us know.....

[Zav]

The BBC just did an article comparing the bastard's clenched fist gesture to the Radical Left, mentioning the Black Panthers and, of course, the CNT-FAI. The one time the BBC talks about it, it is in comparison to a Nazi fuck. Durrutti is screaming obscenities in his grave, and I'm shouting them here. I saw it this morning, but I can't find it again. I question the heavy sourcing to BBC articles on RevLeft. It is apparently rather conservative.

[Sam_b]

there is absolutley no reason why this specimen should not be sent to his death.

Because we're against the state condemning murder, and then going on to murder in the name of the law?

Seriously, this is pretty basic stuff.

[andyx1205]

He isn't insane, and this should be a disturbing yet curious fact that the Left must come into terms with. This is the reality of racism in Europe.

The views he holds, particularly that multiculturalism is a failure, are also shared by David Cameron, Sarkozy, and Angela Merkel. His views are very mainstream. The right-wingers hide those views with euphemistic terms, the far right express those views openly, Breivik simply went the extra step and acted out on those views.

The Nazis took the extra step of having a final solution for the Jews, yet, anti-semitism had existed in the West for a very long time, the Nazis simply took those views to an extreme.

The media tries to make Breivik seem like some isolated insane individual instead of trying to analyze his actual political views and hence challenging those bigoted views which are, like I said, found in mainstream dialogue.

[Yazman]

I'm not saying we should be devoting great time or effort into critical analysis of his ideas or ideology, just that it is still worth having a look at what he wrote if this general area is something you're interested in.

Certainly don't feel like you should shut up though! Quite the opposite - your contributions are good :)

[Luís Henrique]

I may have gone little too far with no fair trial, but 21 years in a hotel room?

Hotel rooms are places where you can come in and go out at will. He will be locked for 21 years, and then scrutinised for whether he still represents a danger - and if so, kept locked until another psychological review is scheduled, and so on, and so on. So he is likely to pass the rest of his life behind bars, or to be released only after his health conditions make him no longer a threat.

Luís Henrique

[Yazman]

Hotel rooms are places where you can come in and go out at will. He will be locked for 21 years, and then scrutinised for whether he still represents a danger - and if so, kept locked until another psychological review is scheduled, and so on, and so on. So he is likely to pass the rest of his life behind bars, or to be released only after his health conditions make him no longer a threat.

Luís Henrique

I agree.

Treating prisoners like the human beings they are doesn't mean the cell is like a "hotel room" either. We must also consider that while they might have a decent standard of living, prisoners like Breivik are usually without any cellmates, and are stuck in a cell much of the time, not to mention they are completely deprived of liberty. So it isn't some sort of fucking holiday, they get to spend at least decades in a prison, every single day. Having a reasonable standard of living doesn't change that.

Besides, committing a crime, regardless of the nature of said crime, in my view doesn't give us license to strip a person of their humanity.

As far as people bringing up the brutal and inhumane prison system in countries like the US, if you want to isolate and incarcerate them, fine. But just because some countries have gulags (like the USA!) it doesn't make them acceptable. If any country desperately needs drastic prison reform, it's DEFINITELY not Norway, it is the US.

[Luís Henrique]

If any country desperately needs drastic prison reform, it's DEFINITELY not Norway, it is the US.

Or Brazil:

http://jaybauman.typepad.com/.a/6a010535dc3e1e970c011572269f26970b-800wi

How is this more conducive to rehabilitation of criminals?

I can only hope people advocating such treatment of criminals never do anything against the law.

Luís Henrique