Shit Men Say to Men Who Say Shit to Women on the Street [Archive]

Jimmie Higgins

10th April 2012, 09:26

They should change the title to Contrived Insincere Bullshit Feminist Men Can Say In Order To Try And Score A Date With Activist WomenYou know because solidarity is like so um "gay" and shit.

As someone who is white as can be in appearance but comes from a mixed-race family and grew up in a right-wing area with racial tensions, I've been calling people out on shit long before I was actually political. Frankly I kind of enjoy it sometimes - nothing like someone talking shit about mexicans and then telling them, "Oh, my grandpa doesn't ever do that" and seeing them frantically backpedal.

But people also said things like "that's gay" and "jew you down". Even though by the time I was 15 or so I was pretty anti-homophobia, I hardly ever called people out on "that's gay" because I was afraid and thought I'd get ostracized. I did call people out on "jew you down" - why? Because I was confident that I could ostracize them if I called them on it because there was less general acceptance of antisemitism in the larger society.

So yeah, things like this are a little silly, but in a small individual way they can help change notions of what you can call people out on as unacceptable rather than feeling silently uncomfortable about it when your friends or coworkers do it. It's no replacement for an actual movement for women's liberation which could change these notions on a large-scale, but it's not some mactivist scam either.

Lilith

10th April 2012, 09:29

Um, where did I call anything "gay"?

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 09:33

Honestly, it depends on what is being said and where you are coming from.

Of course. The video's based on the premise that they're responding to dudes who are catcalling.

I dunno about y'all but I've never met a woman who likes catcalls or even that annoying LOL HOLLA shit.

I mean, I think manic expression is a complete tool,

oh good we are building bridges here this is good that is progress.

but nonetheless, a lot of this shit genuinely does come across as a bunch of jerkoffs whiteknighting.

I think some of the dialogue in the video is a little jilted and unnatural and maybe preachy but I also think it's really valuable for the more conversational bits of it, you know? And I think things like that are really important because most dudes I'll talk to one-on-one will say they think it's fucked up they way women are treated in general but then w/ their friends will be catcalling and shit just because everyone else is doing it you know?

Jimmie Higgins

10th April 2012, 09:33

Um, where did I call anything "gay"?Lol, I'm not accusing you of saying that, I'm accusing you of saying that solidarity is suspect.

Lilith

10th April 2012, 09:35

Apparently what you consider to be solidarity, I consider to be whiteknighting. Therein lies the problem.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 09:41

I think you're just too quick to call things white-knighting.

Lilith

10th April 2012, 09:41

I call it like I see it.

Jimmie Higgins

10th April 2012, 09:46

Apparently what you consider to be solidarity, I consider to be whiteknighting. Therein lies the problem.To know the induvidual motivations for people doing this is not the point. The point is that this behavior is considered socially acceptable to many people and so just like calling someone out for making a comment about immigrants or making a joke about arab terrorists or whatnot, most of the time it's good to call someone out on this. I pick my battles - if someone's a NAZI telling them to have some respect won't go very far.

White-knighting implies that women can't defend themselves, which is not how I interpreted the video - it wasn't about individually coming to the aid of some woman, but about confronting your friends when they do this. If that's "white-knighting" then I guess saying nothing when your friend does this is like black-knight squiring.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 09:46

I call it like I see it.

*Dude A and Dude B are standing on a sidewalk. Dude A sees a woman walking down the street on the other side of the sidewalk and decides to say dumb obnoxious thing*

Dude A: LOL HOLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAHOLLAHOLLAHOLLA

*Woman notices this dumb obnoxious bullshit, looks annoyed and walks a little faster to get away from the dumb motherfucker. Dude B looks at Dude A*

Dude B: yo cut that shit out

(is this whiteknighting)

Lilith

10th April 2012, 09:52

Honestly, I think a sideways glance would more or less do the trick. But I think there is also this idea that women are such fragile innocent helpless little creatures that some jackass yelling LOL HOLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAHOLLAHOLLAHOLLA from across the street constitutes some sort of ABUSE or something. Honestly, I think most women wouldn't really give a shit, and that a lot of this UBER CONCERN is basically just posturing, and is, in itself, actually pretty patronizing.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 10:00

I don't understand what your point is here.
It's pretty spelled out.

Damn son.

You really are a dipshit I am impressed.Yeah, maybe if I got an e-harmony account I could be one of the cool kids. :rolleyes:

Of course. The video's based on the premise that they're responding to dudes who are catcalling.See, that's the problem right there. Nowhere is it made clear that it's about catcalling. It could be some Johnny Dogood giving you grief about trying to actually talk to a woman because he thinks he's superior to you. In fact, if you took the time to look at the site (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male-allies/), it says that anything "unwelcome" is harassment, and one article (the first there) even goes so far as to say that you shouldn't talk to any women you don't know at all, so it's more than likely this isn't just about catcalling.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 10:15

Honestly, I think a sideways glance would more or less do the trick.

yeah guess it could however you do it it's w/e.

But I think there is also this idea that women are such fragile innocent helpless little creatures that some jackass yelling LOL HOLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAAHOLLAHOLLAHOLLA from across the street constitutes some sort of ABUSE or something.

No it doesn't. It constitutes harassment, and shit like that can get pretty intense and frightening sometimes. Other times it's just annoying bullshit and I don't see what's wrong in calling someone out on making the world that little bit less welcoming for someone.

Honestly, I think most women wouldn't really give a shit, and that a lot of this UBER CONCERN is basically just posturing, and is, in itself, actually pretty patronizing.

in my experience this is extremely untrue. and it's not like i hang out w/ activists or even people who call themselves feminists. I mean, people hate the patronizing bullshit definitely, but I don't think calling out some dipshit on his cat-calling counts as that.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 10:48

It's pretty spelled out.

enlighten me dogg.

Yeah, maybe if I got an e-harmony account I could be one of the cool kids. :rolleyes:
uh it's okcupid now dummy.

See, that's the problem right there. Nowhere is it made clear that it's about catcalling.yo I think it is pretty clear and uh, so is the website you linked to:
Catcalls, sexually explicit comments, sexist remarks, groping, leering, stalking, public masturbation, and assault. Most women (more than 80% worldwide) and LGBQT folks will face gender-based street harassment at some point in their life. Street harassment limits people's mobility and access to public spaces. It is a form of gender violence and it's a human rights violation. It needs to stop.

And this brings up a p. good point -- that's it's more than just some dudes goin HOLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAA like obnoxious idiots. It is not a joke or an exaggeration when they talk about sexually explicit comments and shit like that. I was walking down the street with a friend of mine just the other day, standing RIGHT NEXT TO HER and some creeper walks by and whispers some disgusting nonsense in her ear right there in broad day light with me right there.

And the thing is that shit like that is most of what we're talking about. Real talk I think flat out disgusting unwelcome overtly sexual comments like that are more common than compliments that just got taken the wrong way or whatever.

fake edit: and now i just remembered all the shit i used to hear from my friends who'd go out partying and how they'd have dudes creeping on them from their car while they walked down the streets or dudes catcalling CONSTANTLY. I don't know exactly how much it bothered them but girls I know would plan outfits and ask dudes just to walk to or from wherever they were going because of it and shit. Like I doubt anyone was traumatized over some obnoxious dummies but it disrupted their normal plans and shit, definitely.

Point is: shit that goes beyond the pale and is not acceptable happens all. the. fuckin. time and is way more common, I think, than the bullshit hypothetical innocent mix-ups people keep throwing out there.

Fuck.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 13:21

enlighten me dogg.
If you're not sure what henpecked means, then look it up.

uh it's okcupid now dummy.New name, same lame.

yo I think it is pretty clear and uh, so is the website you linked to:
Catcalls, sexually explicit comments, sexist remarks, groping, leering, stalking, public masturbation, and assault. Most women (more than 80% worldwide) and LGBQT folks will face gender-based street harassment at some point in their life. Street harassment limits people's mobility and access to public spaces. It is a form of gender violence and it's a human rights violation. It needs to stop.

And this brings up a p. good point -- that's it's more than just some dudes goin HOLLLLLLLAAAAAAAAAA like obnoxious idiots. It is not a joke or an exaggeration when they talk about sexually explicit comments and shit like that. I was walking down the street with a friend of mine just the other day, standing RIGHT NEXT TO HER and some creeper walks by and whispers some disgusting nonsense in her ear right there in broad day light with me right there.

And the thing is that shit like that is most of what we're talking about. Real talk I think flat out disgusting unwelcome overtly sexual comments like that are more common than compliments that just got taken the wrong way or whatever.You missed this part:

Street harassment is any action or comment between strangers in public places that is disrespectful, unwelcome, threatening and/or harassing and is motivated by gender.

So what's "unwelcome"? Well, that's the thing, there's no way to know. What the organization is saying is that if you try to have a conversation with a woman as courteously as you like and it's not welcome, then you're guilty of harassment. There it is, that's what this video is "speaking out" against.

So "shit like that" isn't "most of what" you're talking about because it's so generalized as to be borderline-empty. You're denouncing hollaholla and whispers, and presumably everything in between, which is just about enough to make any man who attempts to meet a woman he doesn't know a "creeper". How is that at all reasonable?

fake edit: and now i just remembered all the shit i used to hear from my friends who'd go out partying and how they'd have dudes creeping on them from their car while they walked down the streets or dudes catcalling CONSTANTLY. I don't know exactly how much it bothered them but girls I know would plan outfits and ask dudes just to walk to or from wherever they were going because of it and shit. Like I doubt anyone was traumatized over some obnoxious dummies but it disrupted their normal plans and shit, definitely.

Point is: shit that goes beyond the pale and is not acceptable happens all. the. fuckin. time and is way more common, I think, than the bullshit hypothetical innocent mix-ups people keep throwing out there.

Fuck.Ah, so you don't know how much it bothered them, or whether or not they were receptive to other approaches that didn't consist of "hello"...but you're here defending their honor or something.

ParaRevolutionary

10th April 2012, 13:59

Can we make one for men now?

Left Leanings

10th April 2012, 14:18

yo I think it is pretty clear and uh, so is the website you linked to:
Catcalls, sexually explicit comments, sexist remarks, groping, leering, stalking, public masturbation, and assault. Most women (more than 80% worldwide) and LGBQT folks will face gender-based street harassment at some point in their life. Street harassment limits people's mobility and access to public spaces. It is a form of gender violence and it's a human rights violation. It needs to stop.

I absolutely agree. I am bisexual, and have been subjected to abuse as a consequence. I have had remarks made to me at my local bus stop. I have had large groups of young men shout "queer" and "gay bastard" at me when I am walking down the road. I got off a bus once, and an odious piece of shit looked out of the back window, and made a limp-wristed gesture with his hand, meaning 'gay'. It's bang out of fucking order, and makes me feel really bad.

On another note, one time I was on a bus with a straight (male) mate. A very attractive young woman was sat on the bus, texting on her phone. As we got off, I noticed he learned right in towards her, and said something. He put his head very close to her. After we got off, I asked "What did you say to her? Do you know her?"

He said he didn't know her, and had remarked 'you're a proper little darlin'. She totally blanked him, and I don't blame her.

Fact is this right: no one on here gets to tell me as a bisexual man how I should and should not feel, about sexual remarks pointed in my direction, whether complimentary or derogatory.

And no one gets to tell women how they should feel regarding the same.

Listen to the people who have the experience.

Quail

10th April 2012, 14:33

So what's "unwelcome"? Well, that's the thing, there's no way to know. What the organization is saying is that if you try to have a conversation with a woman as courteously as you like and it's not welcome, then you're guilty of harassment. There it is, that's what this video is "speaking out" against.

So "shit like that" isn't "most of what" you're talking about because it's so generalized as to be borderline-empty. You're denouncing hollaholla and whispers, and presumably everything in between, which is just about enough to make any man who attempts to meet a woman he doesn't know a "creeper". How is that at all reasonable?

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this because I may as well be talking to a brick wall that shouts, "What about men?" and, "But women aren't oppressed under patriarchy!" every so often and I know I'm just going to get pissed off, but hey ho.

Are you being willfully dense here? There is a world of difference between trying to politely start a conversation and making inappropriate sexual remarks about someone. If someone tries to make conversation, but the woman isn't interested, that person stops talking to the woman and it's not harassment. I don't see why you seem to find that so difficult to understand.

Of course, one of the problems with being accustomed to street harassment is that I walk around feeling quite suspicious, and if a strange man talks to me I tend to expect to be harassed, so yes, innocent misunderstandings can happen, but in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. When you're making your innocent, polite conversation with women you don't know, you should take into account the fact that there are a lot of creepy men around and think about how you might come across to someone who has experienced street harassment.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 19:23

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 20:25

If you're not sure what henpecked means, then look it up.

I did and I don't see the relevence here.

You missed this part:

Street harassment is any action or comment between strangers in public places that is disrespectful, unwelcome, threatening and/or harassing and is motivated by gender.

So what's "unwelcome"? Well, that's the thing, there's no way to know. What the organization is saying is that if you try to have a conversation with a woman as courteously as you like and it's not welcome, then you're guilty of harassment. There it is, that's what this video is "speaking out" against.

If you try and have a conversation with someone and don't stop, then yeah it is harassment. That's nothing radical or new, dogg.

You're denouncing hollaholla and whispers, and presumably everything in between, which is just about enough to make any man who attempts to meet a woman he doesn't know a "creeper".

Yo I'm not responsible for your inability to comprehend text, man.

Ah, so you don't know how much it bothered them, or whether or not they were receptive to other approaches that didn't consist of "hello"...but you're here defending their honor or something.[/QUOTE]

Ah, so you don't know how much it bothered them

Um, yeah I know that it bothered them quite a lot. Generally sexual abuse bugs people.

or whether or not they were receptive to other approaches that didn't consist of "hello"...

And you're here and you don't even know any of the things they told me and jumping to all sorts of conclusions and saying shit like this which, if you knew the context, actually looks absolutely fuckin' disgusting.

but you're here defending their honor or something.

Nah dude I just think it's awful that so many people I know have endured overt sexual abuse in their lifetimes.

Oh and fuck you by the way.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 20:30

bricolage

10th April 2012, 20:40

1. what's PUA?
2. seriously, 99.999999...% of people don't want strangers approaching them in the street. maybe some do, but as a general rule why not just knock it off and leave people alone.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 20:41

1. what's PUA?

Yo.

"Pick up artists".

2. seriously, 99.999999...% of people don't want strangers approaching them in the street. maybe some do, but as a general rule why not just knock it off and leave people alone.

This basically.

I mean shit waiting in line or hanging out somewhere is one thing but yeah.

bricolage

10th April 2012, 20:43

Yo.

"Pick up artists".
oh what, like the game and that stuff?
that shit is weird, I dunno how you could be into it and not be a prick.

gorillafuck

10th April 2012, 20:46

I was hoping it would be funny:(

nice message nonetheless

black magick hustla

10th April 2012, 20:53

manic expression, militant fighter for the rights of men under women, long live the phallic revolution brother

manic expression

10th April 2012, 20:57

I did and I don't see the relevence here.
Then you didn't see the relevance.

Street harassment is any action or comment between strangers in public places that is disrespectful, unwelcome, threatening and/or harassing and is motivated by gender.Pretty ridiculous definition, that.

If you try and have a conversation with someone and don't stop, then yeah it is harassment. That's nothing radical or new, dogg.Are you trying to change your definition of the problem with every new post? If someone keeps persisting after the woman says "stop" then yeah, it's harassment. Too bad I've already said as much a few times...guess you didn't notice.

Yo I'm not responsible for your inability to comprehend text, man.Your words got you into that, not mine. Try backing up what you say instead of switching around your meaning every post.

Um, yeah I know that it bothered them quite a lot. Generally sexual abuse bugs people.Only the times they chose to tell you about...and I do wonder that you're now calling it "abuse" all of a sudden, as if the label you use means nothing to you.

And you're here and you don't even know any of the things they told me and jumping to all sorts of conclusions and saying shit like this which, if you knew the context, actually looks absolutely fuckin' disgusting.If you're going to use that as your cardinal justification, then expect it to be questioned.

Nah dude I just think it's awful that so many people I know have endured overt sexual abuse in their lifetimes.

Oh and fuck you by the way.So catcalls are sexual abuse now? Is that the definition you just came up with or the one you'll be using next post?

manic expression

10th April 2012, 21:06

Making specific comments about a stranger's body isn't polite though. 'Complimenting' a stranger isn't always polite either.
Oh, well, OK, great point, it's "not always polite"...what is this, the resurrection of Victorian morals?

I don't know about this but I totally understand teaching people this in a place like New York. I know when I'm walking down the street in New York I don't want anyone I don't know trying to talk to me. Maybe that's a cultural thing, because I know people there feel the same way, generally.
Why not, because you think mean people live there? Some women in NYC don't like getting approached, but others definitely do.

Haha let's be real. No you wouldn't.
Yeah I would, actually.

Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Wait.

Holy shit.

Manic are you seriously one of those PUA dipshits?

Damn dogg that is news to me.
Quite the dramatic reaction, that. Do you deny what I stated or are you going to engage in histrionics to make yourself feel better?

bcbm

10th April 2012, 21:07

well this is a new low

New name, same lame.

1 in 5 relationships begins on the net this will only increase i am sure

So what's "unwelcome"? Well, that's the thing, there's no way to know.

humans have these barely perceptible things called 'body language' given time and a little effort anyone can understand this language and its subtle cues about whether or not someone wants a stranger to hassle them

What the organization is saying is that if you try to have a conversation with a woman as courteously as you like and it's not welcome, then you're guilty of harassment. There it is, that's what this video is "speaking out" against.

if it isn't immediately apparent that the conversation is unwelcome before you open your mouth it usually is immediately after, at which point if you do not discontinue your 'courteous' conversation it is harassment, yes.

You're denouncing hollaholla and whispers, and presumably everything in between, which is just about enough to make any man who attempts to meet a woman he doesn't know a "creeper". How is that at all reasonable?

actually there are all kinds of ways to meet women you don't know, but usually the street where people are busy doing shit isn't the place this happens.

So now, feminism wants the best of both worlds, and says that men are supposed to be polite, but that being polite is bad (http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/seriously_theres_nothing_nice_about_nice_guysreg)

that post isn't about being polite being bad, though that you think it is (did you read it?) says a whole lot about your perspective.

i gotta goto work or this would be more thorough. later

Quail

10th April 2012, 21:07

It does strike me as odd that the same feminists who promote(d) the destruction of traditional male gender roles are now looking wistfully back at them from the other side of the sexual revolution. Politeness? Talk about a throw-back. Chivalry is dead, and feminism wielded the knife. So now, feminism wants the best of both worlds, and says that men are supposed to be polite, but that being polite is bad (http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/seriously_theres_nothing_nice_about_nice_guysreg) (or that it's still bad, but it can be OK if you read LOTS of feminist theory! (http://community.feministing.com/2011/11/13/regarding-nice-guys-and-why-women-only-date-jerks-a-critique-of-a-masculine-victim-cult/)). So the appeal to politeness would carry more weight if not for that.

You're creating a false dilemma here. "Old-fashioned chivalry" and "Catcalling creepiness" aren't the only two ways in which men can behave. As for the stuff about "nice guys," well I think you've missed the point of it but I don't think it's relevant to derail the discussion into one about "nice guys."

That aside, I think you might be being dense when you ignore that the opponents of street harassment basically tell men not to speak to women they don't know at all (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/2011/03/men-can-stop-rape-men-can-stop-street-harassment/). Others, the more daring of the movement I guess, say that it's OK only as long as (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male-allies/how-to-talk-to-women/) the first and only word out of the man's mouth is "hello" before waiting for the woman to respond. Yeah, that's a sure conversation-starter if I've ever seen one. So apparently I'm dense because I've done more research into the words and suggestions of the "movement" than you have.
I don't really see anything wrong with the advice posted on there to be quite honest. You do have to take into account the fact that since women experience street harassment quite a lot, situations that shouldn't seem intimidating may do. If I'm alone at night and a strange man approaches me, I expect that they're going to do something unpleasant because that's been my experience in the past. The man could have perfectly good intentions (and in fact it would be a relief to me if he did just ask me where the bus stop was or whatever) but that wouldn't stop me from feeling intimidated.

If this was an anti-catcall thing, or an anti-groping thing, I would have a far different response. The trouble is it's both of those things and neither because it generalizes the issue to an impossible extent, becoming in effect another way to demonize male sexuality instead of working with it to direct it in healthy ways. Like I said in my first post in the other thread, something like PUA actively encourages men not to catcall and yet it's still condemned by much of the same ideology, so what gives?

I don't see how this is demonising male sexuality. Men may be turned on by visual stimuli but that doesn't mean that they have to harass women. There's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive or thinking they have nice legs/eyes/whatever. The problem is when someone finds another person attractive and then makes a sexually explicit comment or does something else that might make that person feel uncomfortable or intimidated.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 21:15

Then you didn't see the relevance.

yes that is why i asked you to explain it to me.

Pretty ridiculous definition, that.

I think it's a p. good one actually.

Are you trying to change your definition of the problem with every new post? If someone keeps persisting after the woman says "stop" then yeah, it's harassment. Too bad I've already said as much a few times...guess you didn't notice.

I dunno dogg it seems like you are having a hell of a time wrestling with this pretty simple definition.

Only the times they chose to tell you about...and I do wonder that you're now calling it "abuse" all of a sudden, as if the label you use means nothing to you.

...So catcalls are sexual abuse now? Is that the definition you just came up with or the one you'll be using next post?

Dude I thought it was pretty clearly implied that I was talking about awful shit that my friends have experienced that they have told me about. I was not talking about catcalls but overtly sexual comments, unwelcome touching, and literally everything else that falls under the term 'sexual abuse' that my friends have experienced, perpetrated by strangers sometimes but not always.

I was trying to be vague and general because it's tacky as fuck I think to use specific stories i was told in confidence in an internet argument but maybe I could've been clearer (even though I think everyone else understood what I was saying).

My point in bringing it up is that it happens a lot and repeatedly to people, and that we're not just talking about someone just being a little creepy sometimes (even though that's a problem to, I think) but talking about shit that goes way beyond the pale. Shit that really does happen all the time to women everywhere, no matter what they are wearing, where they are, who they are with, or how old they are.

And so in the face of this reality, I just think it's dumb to go on like you are over how sometimes a compliment is just a compliment when I think the actual problem that people are trying to tackle here is much bigger than that.

black magick hustla

10th April 2012, 21:21

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 21:25

Oh, well, OK, great point, it's "not always polite"...what is this, the resurrection of Victorian morals?

Yo you were the one

Why not, because you think mean people live there?

uhhh guy i am not at all unfamiliar with new york city

Some women in NYC don't like getting approached, but others definitely do.

But where they are being approached is important. If someone's just hanging out then yeah that's one thing but people walking down the street to a destination don't usually want to be bothered by strangers

Quite the dramatic reaction, that. Do you deny what I stated or are you going to engage in histrionics to make yourself feel better?

Pick up artists don't use catcalls because they don't work though, not because they respect women (they do not silly).

But yeah dogg are you seriously one of those PUA mooks? Please tell me you are not.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 21:26

lol, anyone who scoffs at "online dating" for being "lame" is a caveman or a huge tool. personally i've met/befriended/got laid with a few girls from the internet, i imagine gets better results than commenting on a stranger's breasts in the train
lol, you didnt really get the point did you. whats lame are the people who think it should be the only way for men to meet people theyre interested in. it shouldnt be either-or it should be ok to make approaches in public and to meet people on internet dating sites. anyone who doesnt think that is trying to moralize social interaction. lol

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 21:31

lol, you didnt really get the point did you. whats lame are the people who think it should be the only way for men to meet people theyre interested in.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg that

Quail

10th April 2012, 21:32

lol, you didnt really get the point did you. whats lame are the people who think it should be the only way for men to meet people theyre interested in. it shouldnt be either-or it should be ok to make approaches in public and to meet people on internet dating sites. anyone who doesnt think that is trying to moralize social interaction. lolWho is arguing that online dating sites should be the only way men meet women?

If street harassment was less of an issue, women might be more receptive to men making conversation with them in the street because they wouldn't be expecting to be harassed.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 21:33

Yo you were the one
I'm not waving the banner of politeness and courtesy like it was 1865.

uhhh guy i am not at all unfamiliar with new york city
Then I suggest being less scared of the people inside of it.

But where they are being approached is important. If someone's just hanging out then yeah that's one thing but people walking down the street to a destination don't usually want to be bothered by strangers
Usually usually usually. Sense a pattern in your rhetoric? Vague assertions abound, real analysis is nowhere to be found. I wonder how someone's supposed to know if someone else is going to "a destination" without talking to them...but then if they try to find out, then you call them harassers/abusers/whatever else you've thought up. Funny conundrum you've established, and not at all reasonable.

Pick up artists don't use catcalls because they don't work though, not because they respect women (they do not silly).
I'd be interested to know just how you came to that conclusion. Did you discover that yourself or is that something else you heard through the grapevine?

But yeah dogg are you seriously one of those PUA mooks? Please tell me you are not.
I merely brought it up.

manic expression

10th April 2012, 21:35

Who is arguing that online dating sites should be the only way men meet women?
Why was that a line in the video then?

If street harassment was less of an issue, women might be more receptive to men making conversation with them in the street because they wouldn't be expecting to be harassed.
They're already receptive to men making conversation with them.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissss ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg that
Watch the video. Pay attention. Thanks.

#FF0000

10th April 2012, 21:55

Then I suggest being less scared of the people inside of it.

No one is scared of anyone i'm just saying people don't like dealing with strangers trying to make conversation or talk to them when they are trying to get anywhere.

Usually usually usually. Sense a pattern in your rhetoric?

Yeah I notice I am consistently pointing out that you can't really say things for certain when it comes to human interaction.

I wonder how someone's supposed to know if someone else is going to "a destination" without talking to them...

It is easy to tell the difference someone who is walking and someone who is hanging out I think.

but then if they try to find out, then you call them harassers/abusers/whatever else you've thought up.

Simply trying to start a conversation isn't harassment and no one has said otherwise.

I'd be interested to know just how you came to that conclusion. Did you discover that yourself or is that something else you heard through the grapevine?

The conclusion that pua don't respect women? Oh, I just pieced it together from how they talk about women as targets and use tactics like using backhanded compliments towards a woman to make oneself look more attractive.

Lilith

10th April 2012, 23:19

At a certain point, wouldn't these discussions be more constructive if people just stopped responding to manic expression?

seventeethdecember2016

10th April 2012, 23:33

Hey, you there!!! STOOOOOOOPPP!!!!!!! *in 17th century British accent*

Ostrinski

10th April 2012, 23:47

Yeah walking down the street isn't exactly the best way to get to know new people either so I don't think there's any argument against this

manic expression

11th April 2012, 12:02

Yeah I notice I am consistently pointing out that you can't really say things for certain when it comes to human interaction.
Then we shouldn't try to impose certain rules when it comes to that, wouldn't you say?

It is easy to tell the difference someone who is walking and someone who is hanging out I think.a.) Not really, people who are walking aren't always on their way to something, they could be aimlessly shopping/browsing, strolling/promenading/flossing or any number of things.
b.) Let's say someone's on their way to something after all...who cares? Life happens when you're busy making other plans, you meet people when you least expect it, stop and smell the roses. Not everyone's an automaton, enjoying life is about enjoying the randomness of things every once in awhile.

Simply trying to start a conversation isn't harassment and no one has said otherwise.Let's remember that declaration.

The conclusion that pua don't respect women? Oh, I just pieced it together from how they talk about women as targets and use tactics like using backhanded compliments towards a woman to make oneself look more attractive.Women talk of men as targets in the same way...big deal, you don't hear anyone complaining about it because it's what lots of people do when it comes to courtship. Backhanded compliments have been part of reparte since before people knew what reparte was. So...none of that has any bearing on the level of respect PUA has for women.

bcbm

11th April 2012, 20:58

why is men's desire to hit on women more important than women feeling safe in public places?

Left Leanings

11th April 2012, 22:01

At a certain point, wouldn't these discussions be more constructive if people just stopped responding to manic expression?

Absolutely :D

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 02:15

Then we shouldn't try to impose certain rules when it comes to that, wouldn't you say?

Goddamn dude literally everyone is aware that there are some vague rules that govern social interaction and shit.

Like on one hand dumb posts like these make me think 'welp at least the dude probably does not get out enough to make people uncomfortable' but what makes me a little sad is that it's more likely you plunge into social situations doing dumb shit like shouting EXCELLENT TITS and blatantly sizing people up in public while completely oblivious to how uncomfortable everyone around you is because of it.

And I am telling myself 'Nah manic expression isn't really that stupid' or 'he isn't that bad' but then I remember that i have to tell myself that every time i see you post and it never gets better.

anyway sorry this post was just me thinkin aloud and not much on substance but honestly i find it very hard to explain basic norms that govern social interaction in 21st century america.

do some people like v. specific physical comments? sure do.

does it also make a lot of other people extremely uncomfortable? sure does.

so that means that it is generally a good idea to avoid that shit since you are very likely to make someone uncomfortable. Sure not everyone feels that way, but a lot do!

bcbm

12th April 2012, 03:49

how come every thread lately is like 'so something about women' 'omg whatgt about the meeennnnnn'

Lilith

12th April 2012, 04:19

Generally speaking, I don't think anybody besides manic expression really makes that argument, but for some reason people keep responding to him, even though he has nothing new to say and ruins every thread he participates in.

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 04:38

bcbm

12th April 2012, 04:45

not me, i am just henpecked

manic expression

12th April 2012, 14:54

Goddamn dude literally everyone is aware that there are some vague rules that govern social interaction and shit.
Approaching a stranger is not against any "rule", vague or otherwise.

Like on one hand dumb posts like these make me think 'welp at least the dude probably does not get out enough to make people uncomfortable' but what makes me a little sad is that it's more likely you plunge into social situations doing dumb shit like shouting EXCELLENT TITS and blatantly sizing people up in public while completely oblivious to how uncomfortable everyone around you is because of it.There are few things more laughable than someone desperately trying to formulate an opinion on something while knowing nothing about it.

anyway sorry this post was just me thinkin aloud and not much on substance but honestly i find it very hard to explain basic norms that govern social interaction in 21st century america.Thank the graces that you're here to defend the "basic norms [of] 21st Century America"...yup, that's precisely what leftists should be going for. :rolleyes:

do some people like v. specific physical comments? sure do.

does it also make a lot of other people extremely uncomfortable? sure does.

so that means that it is generally a good idea to avoid that shit since you are very likely to make someone uncomfortable. Sure not everyone feels that way, but a lot do!And...? If someone's uncomfortable they can say something and then that's that. Don't expect me to cosign your idea of women being frail cherubs whose vocal cords cease to function when they dislike something.

how come every thread lately is like 'so something about women' 'omg whatgt about the meeennnnnn'
I wonder, when was the behavior of men brought up first? Was this thread exclusively about the actions of women before my post? Let's not hide from the fact that "What about men" was part of this topic from the very beginning.

why is men's desire to hit on women more important than women feeling safe in public places?The two aren't mutually exclusive.

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 17:44

Approaching a stranger is not against any "rule", vague or otherwise.

No one said this

Thank the graces that you're here to defend the "basic norms [of] 21st Century America"...yup, that's precisely what leftists should be going for. :rolleyes:

yeah youre right since i guess harassing women on the street is sort of 'normal' these days as it is. but hey way to grasp at straws either way lol

And...? If someone's uncomfortable they can say something and then that's that. Don't expect me to cosign your idea of women being frail cherubs whose vocal cords cease to function when they dislike something.
hey dummy i know i have said this a million times but let me say it again. this is stuff that goes for everyone, but applies to women a little more because it happens to women a lot more often. And secondly, a lot of people don't feel comfortable telling their harassers to stop. Especially if they are bigger than they are. Especially if there are a number of them in a group. Especially when people don't know how their harasser will react.

Quail

12th April 2012, 18:18

I don't know why this hasn't sunk in yet, manic expression:

And secondly, a lot of people don't feel comfortable telling their harassers to stop. Especially if they are bigger than they are. Especially if there are a number of them in a group. Especially when people don't know how their harasser will react.
Some people freeze and don't do anything when they're being sexually assaulted, but I hope you don't go around telling people that they should have the strength/confidence/etc. to tell the perpetrator to get off and leave them alone.

Some women can tell creepy men to get lost and feel safe doing so, some don't. But even if every woman felt safe telling men not to sexually harass them, they shouldn't have to do it in the first place because men shouldn't harass random women.

bcbm

12th April 2012, 20:47

I wonder, when was the behavior of men brought up first? Was this thread exclusively about the actions of women before my post? Let's not hide from the fact that "What about men" was part of this topic from the very beginning.

you might notice the topic was 'men stopping harassment of women among men, not 'how t'o deny men their god given right to talk to anyone they want whenever they damn well please'

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

in a societal context where many women face near daily harassment to say nothing of the threat of violence (or actual violence), even 'friendly' interactions take on a suspect character given the swamp of shit that surrounds them and so to this extent they become mutually exclusive. you might be the nicest guy in the world but your actions are going to have a strong chance of appearing as 'unwanted harassment' as long as so much unwanted harassment continues to occur against women in public places. maybe you should focus your energy on combating that instead of your desire to approach strangers in the street? seems like a win/win scenario.

manic expression

12th April 2012, 21:03

No one said this
No one is scared of anyone i'm just saying people don't like dealing with strangers trying to make conversation or talk to them when they are trying to get anywhere.

We could have avoided this sort of confusion if a single workable definition had been proposed in the first three pages. But hey, who knows, maybe the fourth will get us somewhere.

yeah youre right since i guess harassing women on the street is sort of 'normal' these days as it is. but hey way to grasp at straws either way lolOf course, wanting to have things both ways. So which is it, are you the defender of the "basic norms" or are you the brave insurgent fighting against the patriarchal oppression of men deciding to speak to women? Let's at least figure out which self-serving illusion you're going with.

hey dummy i know i have said this a million times but let me say it again. this is stuff that goes for everyone, but applies to women a little more because it happens to women a lot more often. And secondly, a lot of people don't feel comfortable telling their harassers to stop. Especially if they are bigger than they are. Especially if there are a number of them in a group. Especially when people don't know how their harasser will react.Doesn't follow, not even on its own terms. That it happens to women more often that has no bearing on their ability or inability to say "leave me alone". If someone is in a position of truly being intimidated (ie shouting abusive language, etc.) then that's way past that point anyway. Again, if we had a workable definition of what harassment entails other than "well she might not like it" then we could get down to brass tacks.

Some people freeze and don't do anything when they're being sexually assaulted, but I hope you don't go around telling people that they should have the strength/confidence/etc. to tell the perpetrator to get off and leave them alone.

Some women can tell creepy men to get lost and feel safe doing so, some don't. But even if every woman felt safe telling men not to sexually harass them, they shouldn't have to do it in the first place because men shouldn't harass random women.
It's a very different thing communicating with someone verbally and overpowering them to violate them.

I don't think I've so much as insinuated that if someone's sexually harassed that it's their personal responsibility to solve the problem or anything...my issue is that behavior that's not harassment is being shoe-horned into the label for the purposes of convenience.

you might notice the topic was 'men stopping harassment of women among men, not 'how t'o deny men their god given right to talk to anyone they want whenever they damn well please'
I also happened to notice that for the promoters of the video, "harassment" is erroneously defined as any unwanted communication, which is nonsense, and impractical nonsense to boot.

in a societal context where many women face near daily harassment to say nothing of the threat of violence (or actual violence), even 'friendly' interactions take on a suspect character given the swamp of shit that surrounds them and so to this extent they become mutually exclusive. you might be the nicest guy in the world but your actions are going to have a strong chance of appearing as 'unwanted harassment' as long as so much unwanted harassment continues to occur against women in public places. maybe you should focus your energy on combating that instead of your desire to approach strangers in the street? seems like a win/win scenario.Or, we can stop demonizing male behavior to the point at which a man who tries to meet a stranger is gleefully shoved into the "potential violent threat" category.

But who knows, maybe you have a point, since some might feel uncomfortable otherwise, we should mandate that men look at the ground whenever they're outside, lest they appear ruffians. Win/win, right?

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 21:49

We could have avoided this sort of confusion if a single workable definition had been proposed in the first three pages. But hey, who knows, maybe the fourth will get us somewhere.

I don't know guy, what we've been talking about has been clear enough for p. much everyone else. But just for you I will bring out the legal definition: "Intentional behavior that is found threatening or disturbing". Simple enough now?

Doesn't follow, not even on its own terms.

yo it is literally stunning how dense you are.

That it happens to women more often that has no bearing on their ability or inability to say "leave me alone".

Nobody has even begun to suggest that. In fact I stressed the exact opposite, that it is common for people of any gender to not say anything to their harasser.

It's a very different thing communicating with someone verbally and overpowering them to violate them.

Yes no shit. Everyone understands this and we have said repeatedly that attempts to start a conversation don't constitute harassment unless the attempt is repeatedly made when the person has made it known that it is not welcome.

I also happened to notice that for the promoters of the video, "harassment" is erroneously defined as any unwanted communication, which is nonsense, and impractical nonsense to boot.

No, that is pretty much what it is.

Or, we can stop demonizing male behavior to the point at which a man who tries to meet a stranger is gleefully shoved into the "potential violent threat" category.

Yo this isn't even specifically male behavior. I mean, uh, I've even made sure to use language that would reinforce the point that this shit is universal and would constitute harassment no matter who did it to who.

Quail

12th April 2012, 21:51

Doesn't follow, not even on its own terms. That it happens to women more often that has no bearing on their ability or inability to say "leave me alone". If someone is in a position of truly being intimidated (ie shouting abusive language, etc.) then that's way past that point anyway. Again, if we had a workable definition of what harassment entails other than "well she might not like it" then we could get down to brass tacks.

This isn't true though. Because it happens so often, many women feel intimidated when walking around alone anticipating that someone might call out an inappropriate comment about their body or otherwise harass them. Personally, I try to ignore people's comments and get out of the situation as quickly as possible. I'm average height and underweight, so if someone tried anything, I wouldn't be able to defend myself. I feel potentially in danger, regardless of the actual intentions of those men.

It's a very different thing communicating with someone verbally and overpowering them to violate them. Sexual assault is more serious than sexual harassment but I think they're in a similar ballpark.

I don't think I've so much as insinuated that if someone's sexually harassed that it's their personal responsibility to solve the problem or anything...my issue is that behavior that's not harassment is being shoe-horned into the label for the purposes of convenience.
But when you argue that:

And...? If someone's uncomfortable they can say something and then that's that.

it kind of suggests that it's okay to harass women because they can say they're uncomfortable if they are. So if a woman is being harassed, she has to deal with the person harassing her suitably by telling him to go away or push him away from her. It seems to imply that women have control over the situation because they can just tell creepy men to go away, but people have given you reasons why this isn't true.

The kind of behaviour that you're talking about might not be harassment, but you're not trying to understand the circumstances in which it's happening and how that affects how it's perceived. It's been explained over and over again:

in a societal context where many women face near daily harassment to say nothing of the threat of violence (or actual violence), even 'friendly' interactions take on a suspect character given the swamp of shit that surrounds them and so to this extent they become mutually exclusive. you might be the nicest guy in the world but your actions are going to have a strong chance of appearing as 'unwanted harassment' as long as so much unwanted harassment continues to occur against women in public places. maybe you should focus your energy on combating that instead of your desire to approach strangers in the street? seems like a win/win scenario

manic expression

12th April 2012, 22:04

I don't know guy, what we've been talking about has been clear enough for p. much everyone else. But just for you I will bring out the legal definition: "Intentional behavior that is found threatening or disturbing". Simple enough now?
And I note, without much surprise, that this differs with the definition I took issue with way back when.

Nobody has even begun to suggest that. In fact I stressed the exact opposite, that it is common for people of any gender to not say anything to their harasser.
"this is stuff that goes for everyone, but applies to women a little more because it happens to women a lot more often."

That seemed to imply that women might be less inclined to say something because it happens to them more often. That doesn't follow.

Yes no shit. Everyone understands this and we have said repeatedly that attempts to start a conversation don't constitute harassment unless the attempt is repeatedly made when the person has made it known that it is not welcome.
Good.

No, that is pretty much what it is.
Well, then that last statement you made doesn't hold much water.

Yo this isn't even specifically male behavior. I mean, uh, I've even made sure to use language that would reinforce the point that this shit is universal and would constitute harassment no matter who did it to who.
Shit Men Say to Men Who Say Shit to Women on the Street

Don't tell me this isn't focused on men and male behavior.

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 22:14

And I note, without much surprise, that this differs with the definition I took issue with way back when.

No, it really does not. It is, i think, essentially the same.

That seemed to imply that women might be less inclined to say something because it happens to them more often. That doesn't follow.Oh. Yeah, no that isn't what I meant at all. Pretty sure I meant that it made sense to make a video like this directed at harassment towards women because women are more often harassed on the street than men. Who knows, though, I'm having trouble parsing that sentence out of context

But, shit, that might be true though. I imagine if I had an even chance of having some people whistling and making comments at me whenever I went out, I'd be a little uneasy about saying something back too.

Well, then that last statement you made doesn't hold much water.I don't see any conflict whatsoever, honestly.

Shit Men Say to Men Who Say Shit to Women on the Street

Don't tell me this isn't focused on men and male behavior.When men getting harassed on the street becomes as common and widespread as harassment against women on the street is, then I guess it'd make sense to make a video about that.

manic expression

12th April 2012, 22:25

No, it really does not. It is, i think, essentially the same.
Unwelcome is not the same as threatening or disturbing.

Oh. Yeah, no that isn't what I meant at all.
OK I believe you...a clarification could help though.

I don't see any conflict whatsoever, honestly.
If "unwelcome" (aka not liked) is the mark of harassment than any communication could feasibly be harassment.

When men getting harassed on the street becomes as common and widespread as harassment against women on the street is, then I guess it'd make sense to make a video about that.
Demonizing male behavior has little to do with sense.

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 22:28

Unwelcome is not the same as threatening or disturbing.

I think it covers both of those things pretty well without covering 'too much'.

If "unwelcome" (aka not liked) is the mark of harassment than any communication could feasibly be harassment.

Well yeah any communication that a person does not want could be harassment that is true.

Demonizing male behavior has little to do with sense.

Yo but nobody is demonizing "male behavior".

manic expression

12th April 2012, 22:56

I think it covers both of those things pretty well without covering 'too much'.
What it means is that anything a woman doesn't happen to like is harassment, which is crazy.

Well yeah any communication that a person does not want could be harassment that is true.
Like I've been saying, that's absurd. There's no way to know if something is welcome or unwelcome until it's said. Your definition is tantamount to branding any and all communication harassment.

Yo but nobody is demonizing "male behavior".
You're in denial.

#FF0000

12th April 2012, 23:04

What it means is that anything a woman doesn't happen to like is harassment, which is crazy.

Like I've been saying, that's absurd. There's no way to know if something is welcome or unwelcome until it's said. Your definition is tantamount to branding any and all communication harassment.

yo it's very simple. if you say something and that person doesn't want you to keep talking to them, you stop or else it's harassment.

i mean it's extremely simple. basic human interaction.

You're in denial.

Nope.

manic expression

12th April 2012, 23:15

yo it's very simple. if you say something and that person doesn't want you to keep talking to them, you stop or else it's harassment.
If the initial communication is unwelcome then voila, it's harassment according to your definition.

Nope.Yeah, sure, you've just spent dozens of posts doing your best to do that.

The Machine

12th April 2012, 23:26

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 00:12

so apparently the options are either be a creep and yell at women on the street or never say anything to someone you dont know that could be taken as too forward. idk how male feminists or pua weirdos ever get laid.

yo except nobody is saying never say anything to someone you don't know. people are insisting that others are saying that, but no one is saying that.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 00:17

If the initial communication is unwelcome then voila, it's harassment according to your definition.

Nah I don't think so. If it's something totally innocent like saying 'sup' then of course that's not harassment unless you're trying to force conversation or something and they just don't want to talk.

again though this is something has been repeated in this thread. Trying to start a conversation isn't harassment. Trying to start a conversation with some weird specific comment about someone's body, on the other hand, is.

Yeah, sure, you've just spent dozens of posts doing your best to do that.

no i haven't.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 00:19

Nah I don't think so. If it's something totally innocent like saying 'sup' then of course that's not harassment unless you're trying to force conversation or something and they just don't want to talk.

again though this is something has been repeated in this thread. Trying to start a conversation isn't harassment. Trying to start a conversation with some weird specific comment about someone's body, on the other hand, is.
And what if "sup" is unwelcome? Harassment?

no i haven't.
"Trying to start a conversation isn't harassment. Trying to start a conversation with some weird specific comment about someone's body, on the other hand, is."

Ostrinski

13th April 2012, 00:26

Jesus fucking christ. If you're walking down the street, then you've got somewhere to go. There shouldn't be any need to stop and talk to anyone anyway. Who is that bored/insecure that they can't go anywhere without harassing people

manic expression

13th April 2012, 00:38

This isn't true though. Because it happens so often, many women feel intimidated when walking around alone anticipating that someone might call out an inappropriate comment about their body or otherwise harass them. Personally, I try to ignore people's comments and get out of the situation as quickly as possible. I'm average height and underweight, so if someone tried anything, I wouldn't be able to defend myself. I feel potentially in danger, regardless of the actual intentions of those men.
I think you should do what you feel you should to stay safe. I never said you had to listen to every tom dick and harry who comes up to you but we shouldn't call all of it harassment because of anticipated feelings of danger.

it kind of suggests that it's okay to harass women because they can say they're uncomfortable if they are. So if a woman is being harassed, she has to deal with the person harassing her suitably by telling him to go away or push him away from her. It seems to imply that women have control over the situation because they can just tell creepy men to go away, but people have given you reasons why this isn't true.

The kind of behaviour that you're talking about might not be harassment, but you're not trying to understand the circumstances in which it's happening and how that affects how it's perceived. It's been explained over and over again:
The first thing is that I've only gotten excuses as to why women aren't capable of making their feelings known even though if we're all being honest with each other it's pretty clear woman are quite capable of that and then some. I've already said that if a woman is legitimately being harassed that's one thing, but if some dude is kicking game to her and she doesn't say she's not interested then, well, that's how it goes. The other thing is a man can't be expected to understand her circumstances because he doesn't know her. That there isn't a single female circumstance is my point.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 00:47

And what if "sup" is unwelcome? Harassment?

i am p. sure i explained this in that very post!

"Trying to start a conversation isn't harassment. Trying to start a conversation with some weird specific comment about someone's body, on the other hand, is."

i don't understand how this is 'demonizing male behavior".

manic expression

13th April 2012, 00:53

i am p. sure i explained this in that very post!
I don't think you're appreciating the full weight of the definition...no matter how innocent something is, if it's seen as "unwelcome" then it's already qualified as harassment. It could be "sup", it could be "hi", it could be a movement of the head. That's why I've had a problem with that characterization from the start.

i don't understand how this is 'demonizing male behavior".
Starting a conversation by complimenting someone's physical appearance is part of male behavior, men are expected to initiate social interaction, and such compliments aren't cruel or evil or bigoted or whatever else they've been viewed as. That's why I say that.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 00:58

The first thing is that I've only gotten excuses as to why women aren't capable of making their feelings known even though if we're all being honest with each other it's pretty clear woman are quite capable of that and then some.

Uh, well I do want to point out, again, that it's not about women being unable to make their feelings known. People in general, no matter their sex, are very often too uncomfortable to tell someone who is bothering them to stop it.

I've already said that if a woman is legitimately being harassed that's one thing, but if some dude is kicking game to her and she doesn't say she's not interested then, well, that's how it goes..

oh hey i think we're on the verge of a breakthrough here.

Have you ever considered...

stay with me here...

that a lot of women don't like it when a stranger is trying to kick game while she's just walking down the street?

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 01:02

I don't think you're appreciating the full weight of the definition...no matter how innocent something is, if it's seen as "unwelcome" then it's already qualified as harassment. It could be "sup", it could be "hi", it could be a movement of the head. That's why I've had a problem with that characterization from the start.

Yo but that alone just doesn't constitute harassment. If you're just saying "Hi" then you're just saying "Hi". What we are talking about here is not people just saying "Hi".

Starting a conversation by complimenting someone's physical appearance is part of male behaviorI was never informed of this hahaha. Also, again, I think you missing that "specific" is sort of important. Saying 'oh hey you look good today' is a lot different from making specific comments about parts of someone's body, for the umpteenth time.

Regardless, though, coming out of nowhere with any sort of comment like that is kind of uh strange, I think, depending on the context.

men are expected to initiate social interactionOh.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 01:07

Uh, well I do want to point out, again, that it's not about women being unable to make their feelings known. People in general, no matter their sex, are very often too uncomfortable to tell someone who is bothering them to stop it.
I cannot agree, if you bother people they'll make their discomfort known in one form or another, but it's usually more than palpable.

oh hey i think we're on the verge of a breakthrough here.

Have you ever considered...

stay with me here...

that a lot of women don't like it when a stranger is trying to kick game while she's just walking down the street?
Have you ever considered that a lot of women do? Or do you think they're too virtuous, too pure to be open to meeting men on the street?

But no matter what you consider and no matter what you think, it'll still be projection, most likely based on a stereotype of what women want and like.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 01:10

I cannot agree, if you bother people they'll make their discomfort known in one form or another, but it's usually more than palpable.

I actually agree here. Usually it's p. easy to tell just through body language. I'm saying a lot of times people are too uncomfortable to be more direct and confront the person that's bugging them.

Have you ever considered that a lot of women do? Or do you think they're too virtuous, too pure to be open to meeting men on the streetYo I am sure that there are women who do but that does not change the fact a lot of women are bothered by it, as evidenced by the existence of these campaigns that, like I said before, aren't coming out of the women's studies departments of a university but from regular ol' working class neighborhoods, or at leading gaining a lot of traction within them.

But no matter what you consider and no matter what you think, it'll still be projection, most likely based on a stereotype of what women want and likeNo. It's based on what women in my life have told me.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 01:15

Yo but that alone just doesn't constitute harassment.
If it's unwelcome then it fulfills that understanding of harassment. That's what I'm saying, there is no hair to split here because it's an arbitrary judgment. If it's unwelcome it's unwelcome.

I was never informed of this hahaha. Also, again, I think you missing that "specific" is sort of important. Saying 'oh hey you look good today' is a lot different from making specific comments about parts of someone's body, for the umpteenth time.

Regardless, though, coming out of nowhere with any sort of comment like that is kind of uh strange, I think, depending on the context.
I don't see how it's strange either way. I'm not saying it's the best way to go but I'm not going to say it's wrong or anything because it's not, it's a way of initiating.

Oh.
Amazing but true.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 01:23

I actually agree here. Usually it's p. easy to tell just through body language. I'm saying a lot of times people are too uncomfortable to be more direct and confront the person that's bugging them.
Yeah, but people usually get non-verbal responses.

Yo I am sure that there are women who do but that does not change the fact a lot of women are bothered by it, as evidenced by the existence of these campaigns that, like I said before, aren't coming out of the women's studies departments of a university but from regular ol' working class neighborhoods, or at leading gaining a lot of traction within them.That's not at all evidence, the mere existence of a campaign doesn't justify its arguments. Just because a few people made some websites and carried some signs around doesn't mean women aren't open to meeting men on the street, because they are.

No. It's based on what women in my life have told me.So in other words, hearsay. Still projection.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 02:06

Yeah, but people usually get non-verbal responses.

Yup and then there are those who ignore them, and those dudes are harassing people.

That's not at all evidence, the mere existence of a campaign doesn't justify its arguments. Just because a few people made some websites and carried some signs around doesn't mean women aren't open to meeting men on the street, because they are.

No one's really denying that some women might be fine w/ dudes trying to holla like big dumb idiots but uh doesn't change the fact that plenty don't.

So in other words, hearsay. Still projection.

lol okay lemme just go based on what this dude on the internet is telling me instead of women who have actual experience with this then

The Machine

13th April 2012, 02:15

yo except nobody is saying never say anything to someone you don\'t know. people are insisting that others are saying that, but no one is saying that.

The way you make it sound if you hit on a woman except for in very specific circumstances youre assaulting her. Like its not like I have the balls to go randomly try to get with a woman who catches my eye outside of like a bar/club/party scene but it seems like every time I meet a couple who met uner out of the ordinary circumstances, its always the girl who really likes telling the story. Now granted it\'s almost always a story where the dude comes up all sweet and polite so it\'s not exactly yelling \"DAMN GURL\" from across the street but you make it sound like if the girl wasnt into it and said no the guy would be harassing her.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 02:27

The way you make it sound if you hit on a woman except for in very specific circumstances youre assaulting her.

Yo then I just don't know what to tell you except to read that shit again until you actually get it? I'm not saying that and I'm not responsible for your inability to parse basic sentences.

Now granted it\'s almost always a story where the dude comes up all sweet and polite so it\'s not exactly yelling \"DAMN GURL\" from across the street but you make it sound like if the girl wasnt into it and said no the guy would be harassing her."well what about when it is not harassment is it harassment then?"

manic expression

13th April 2012, 02:35

Yup and then there are those who ignore them, and those dudes are harassing people.
Only if it's made clear they're not interested. If not, you can hardly accuse the other party of harassment.

No one's really denying that some women might be fine w/ dudes trying to holla like big dumb idiots but uh doesn't change the fact that plenty don't.Just wondering, how did you arrive to the certain conclusion that "plenty don't"?

Remember what I said about projection based on stereotypes? Yeah, your above statement is exactly what I meant.

lol okay lemme just go based on what this dude on the internet is telling me instead of women who have actual experience with this thenYour friends' gossip isn't evidence for anything, it's just what a certain few people chose to tell you after the fact. By the way, not to comment on your friends but do you really think women go around telling their male friends every time they give out their number?

But anyway, the hearsay of your personal circle of friends is entirely useless as a basis for argument.

Luc

13th April 2012, 02:41

Holy fuck why hasen't anyone caught on to this

Manic just what the fuck is "male behavior or male sexuality"??????

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 02:45

Only if it's made clear they're not interested. If not, you can hardly accuse the other party of harassment.

Yeah but you said yourself, it's usually pretty fuckin' obvious.

Just wondering, how did you arrive to the certain conclusion that "plenty don't"?Because I have rarely ever heard about women who enjoy dudes trying to kick game at them when they are just trying to walk down the street?

Again tho I feel like this sort of misses the point because the vast majority of this street harassment stuff isn't some awkward dummy trying in earnest to get a phone number.

Remember what I said about projection based on stereotypes? Yeah, your above statement is exactly what I meant.Nope, I'm not basing this on any sort of stereotype at all. I'm basing it on the simple idea that people generally don't want to be bothered by strangers trying to get their number while they're walking somewhere -- but haha okay.

Your friends' gossip isn't evidence for anything, it's just what a certain few people chose to tell you after the fact.Yes clearly they must be lying and secretly love dudes catcalling and leering and shit at them.

By the way, not to comment on your friends but do you really think women go around telling their male friends every time they give out their number?Nope. Don't see the point in this comment, tho.

But anyway, the hearsay of your personal circle of friends is entirely useless as a basis for argument."y dont u MALE FEMINISTS try listnin to what WOMEN ACTUALLY THINGK HUH?" he says

"O THATS HEARSAY" he says

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 02:46

Holy fuck why hasen't anyone caught on to this

Manic just what the fuck is "male behavior or male sexuality"??????

he actually went over that.

He said:

"Starting a conversation by complimenting someone's physical appearance is part of male behavior, men are expected to initiate social interaction, and such compliments aren't cruel or evil or bigoted or whatever else they've been viewed as. That's why I say that"

Luc

13th April 2012, 02:48

he actually went over that.

He said:

"Starting a conversation by complimenting someone's physical appearance is part of male behavior, men are expected to initiate social interaction, and such compliments aren't cruel or evil or bigoted or whatever else they've been viewed as. That's why I say that"

I hate myself I awlays do this :blushing: I am sorry everyone

manic expression

13th April 2012, 02:50

but it seems like every time I meet a couple who met uner out of the ordinary circumstances, its always the girl who really likes telling the story.
So true...feminists want to convince us that men who take the initiative to meet new people are "creeps" or "harassers" or whatever other BS insult they've thought up this month, but in reality women like meeting guys unexpectedly. Anyone who tries to deny this is just out-of-touch, honestly.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 02:51

So true...feminists want to convince us that men who take the initiative to meet new people are "creeps" or "harassers" or whatever other BS insult they've thought up this month

No, nobody is saying this. If we were then I must be king of all harassers because i make small talk like a motherfucker.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

13th April 2012, 03:01

I hate myself I awlays do this :blushing: I am sorry everyone

It's all right and well, it is good that Manic's confused ideas are illuminated in this manner. Perhaps one day, he will refrain from being so stupid. That, at least, we can hope.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 03:11

Yeah but you said yourself, it's usually pretty fuckin' obvious.
Yeah, usually, I'd agree with that but it's important to note anyway.

Because I have rarely ever heard about women who enjoy dudes trying to kick game at them when they are just trying to walk down the street?As a male, you're not in a position to hear about that. The girls themselves aren't going to go on bragging about it to many people because that sort of behavior is frowned upon (in other words, they'd be seen as trashy/slutty for bragging about that sort of thing). If anything they'll tell their closest confidantes (inevitably their best girlfriends) if they met a guy they liked but that's about it, people outside that circle aren't going to hear about much of anything unless a relationship develops...at which point the woman is all smiles when she tells the story (just like The Machine pointed out).

So yeah, don't expect to hear about it through the grapevine because that sort of news doesn't travel...particularly since women have a vested interest in making sure it doesn't travel.

Again tho I feel like this sort of misses the point because the vast majority of this street harassment stuff isn't some awkward dummy trying in earnest to get a phone number.My concern is that anyone trying to break the ice isn't tossed into the pit of "street harassment", and to be perfectly honest I hear things that make me think that's the case ("you've never heard of e-harmony?" would be said to precisely that sort of situation, that's not a response to a catcall and we both know that).

Nope, I'm not basing this on any sort of stereotype at all. I'm basing it on the simple idea that people generally don't want to be bothered by strangers trying to get their number while they're walking somewhere -- but haha okay.Oh please, we can all agree that women have sex drives that are comparable to that of men. They like to date, they like relationships, they like to f*ck...and so they like to meet new people, especially if they're confident and spontaneous (both of which you have to be to some extent to approach a woman randomly), funny, fun, interesting, etc.

So yes, I will say that your "simple idea" is a complete stereotype and a misconception at that. Just because you're walking somewhere doesn't mean you'll refuse to meet someone should the opportunity present itself, and just about anyone who isn't a workaholic will understand that.

Yes clearly they must be lying and secretly love dudes catcalling and leering and shit at them.They're not an impartial source.

"y dont u MALE FEMINISTS try listnin to what WOMEN ACTUALLY THINGK HUH?" he says

"O THATS HEARSAY" he saysThe first part depends entirely on listening to women outside of your immediate circle of friends, since you can't very well get a good view of things if you're getting your info second-hand from a self-selecting group of people. But then again, according to the feminists, if you want to meet women you don't already know, you run the risk of being party to street harassment. Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

manic expression

13th April 2012, 03:14

No, nobody is saying this. If we were then I must be king of all harassers because i make small talk like a motherfucker.
How many more times are you going to ignore your own definition? Any "unwelcome" communication/attention from a male to a female is harassment according to the feminists. That means that if your small talk isn't all that welcome after all you're a harasser.

Thirsty Crow

13th April 2012, 03:14

It's all right and well, it is good that Manic's confused ideas are illuminated in this manner. Perhaps one day, he will refrain from being so stupid. That, at least, we can hope.
We got a saying here where I live, "hope dies last".
But it does die, eventually.

blake 3:17

13th April 2012, 03:27

It's all right and well, it is good that Manic's confused ideas are illuminated in this manner. Perhaps one day, he will refrain from being so stupid. That, at least, we can hope.

It's pretty obsessive, but I get fixated on fixations so. It seems he can't help himself turning any gendered issue into something to do with himself and his masculinity.

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 03:37

How many more times are you going to ignore your own definition? Any "unwelcome" communication/attention from a male to a female is harassment according to the feminists. That means that if your small talk isn't all that welcome after all you're a harasser.

this is literally worse than talking to a wall.

HEAD ICE

13th April 2012, 04:25

does manic have anything going for him

The Machine

13th April 2012, 04:29

So true...feminists want to convince us that men who take the initiative to meet new people are \"creeps\" or \"harassers\" or whatever other BS insult they\'ve thought up this month, but in reality women like meeting guys unexpectedly. Anyone who tries to deny this is just out-of-touch, honestly.

yeah but I mean on the other hand there is a fine line. in my opinion the original video was about dudes being belligerent assholes to girls and guys who do that a lot are creeps, idk about harassers that\'s a bit much tho. when women talk about meeting a dude unexpectedly 9 times out of 10 its a really cute/sweet story its not some dude being obnoxious.

#F from what ive seen your argument is that any unwelcome advances are harassment. i supposes this is true if she lets you know shes not interested and you keep at it, but a lot of times you get mixed signals or the woman changes her mind from her first impression if you got game like that. i just think youre being too broad.

all that aside though, whom among us hasnt yelled obnoxious shit from a car at someone while drunk.

Quail

13th April 2012, 13:37

all that aside though, whom among us hasnt yelled obnoxious shit from a car at someone while drunk.
Well, I haven't. I'm not trying to make out I'm perfect or anything, but since I don't like it when people shout obnoxious shit at me, I don't do it to anyone else.

I think you should do what you feel you should to stay safe. I never said you had to listen to every tom dick and harry who comes up to you but we shouldn't call all of it harassment because of anticipated feelings of danger.
I'm trying to explain why women might not appreciate being approached by strange men, but everything I say seems to get lost on you. The problem is, I can only do so much to feel safer, but as long as there are so many people out there who feel it's okay to harass me in the street, I can only feel as safe as those people make me feel.

The first thing is that I've only gotten excuses as to why women aren't capable of making their feelings known even though if we're all being honest with each other it's pretty clear woman are quite capable of that and then some. I've already said that if a woman is legitimately being harassed that's one thing, but if some dude is kicking game to her and she doesn't say she's not interested then, well, that's how it goes.
Even if she doesn't say she isn't interested, her body language will probably reflect that she's uncomfortable. Some socially awkward guy genuinely trying to get a date would probably notice and leave her alone. Those people aren't the problem. The problem is the people who don't really care how the women they're interacting with react. I don't think anyone who asks to see a stranger's breasts is looking to strike up a meaningful conversation. I don't even know why people have had to explain this to you. I'm almost tempted to think that you're trolling.

The other thing is a man can't be expected to understand her circumstances because he doesn't know her. That there isn't a single female circumstance is my point
There isn't a single female circumstance, but here in this thread we have a campaign against street harassment, two women explaining how they are affected by street harassment and someone else giving second hand accounts of how his friends have been affected by street harassment, and yet you just don't listen. You're dismissing the idea that street harassment negatively affects women based on your idea of some imaginary women who enjoy being harassed.

roy

13th April 2012, 16:00

Goddamn. How did "don't be a dick" turn into a 6 page thread?

bcbm

13th April 2012, 17:30

I also happened to notice that for the promoters of the video, "harassment" is erroneously defined as any unwanted communication, which is nonsense, and impractical nonsense to boot.

the dictionary defines harass as 'to disturb persistently.' if you approach someone and they aren't into it and you continue anyway, that is unwanted communication and that is harassment. it doesn't mean don't ever talk to anyone it just means being respectful of things like body language etc and realizing when an interaction with you is not what the person has in mind. its really pretty simple stuff.

Or, we can stop demonizing male behavior to the point at which a man who tries to meet a stranger is gleefully shoved into the "potential violent threat" category.remember when you tried to shrug off me saying threads always go 'something about women' 'omg what about the meeeeen?' well here is a prime example for you. the issue is not the demonization of male sexuality (unless you consider harassment part of male sexuality which wouldn't surprise me), the issue is women being harassed in the streets which all of the anecdotal evidence in this thread (and plenty of scientific studies (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/)) show is a real problem that occurs with distressing frequency- note that in several of those studies 100 percent of women report having been harassed on the street. let that sink in. 100 percent. so unless you're a total troglodyte it is pretty obvious that the issue if not men being demonized it is men harassing women. if harmless interactions get shoved into the 'potential violent threat' category it is because women face potential violent threats on a near constant basis because 100 percent of women in multiple surveys report being harassed in a troublesome manner on the street. for fucks sake.
(http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/)

But who knows, maybe you have a point, since some might feel uncomfortable otherwise, we should mandate that men look at the ground whenever they're outside, lest they appear ruffians. Win/win, right?you poor oppressed thing :crying:

Martin Blank

13th April 2012, 18:54

Goddamn. How did "don't be a dick" turn into a 6 page thread?

Manic started posting.

At this point, I think the only reason manic is in the PSL (and on here) is to run his game on leftist women.

black magick hustla

13th April 2012, 21:27

idk whats a woman im 9 yo

#FF0000

13th April 2012, 22:56

At this point, I think the only reason manic is in the PSL (and on here) is to run his game on leftist women.

I think the PSL's politics are p. much trash but I always got the impression that they were very serious about 'womens struggles'.

Danielle Ni Dhighe

13th April 2012, 23:09

I think the PSL's politics are p. much trash but I always got the impression that they were very serious about 'womens struggles'.
I got the same impression from interactions with other PSL members. Manic's views on women, though, wouldn't be out of place in the GOP.

Vyacheslav Brolotov

14th April 2012, 01:20

What the fuck happened to Manic Expression? He's banned!

R_P_A_S

14th April 2012, 01:34

personally I hate people like that.. that have to shout things out to women from across the street. when it goes beyond chivalry.

Vyacheslav Brolotov

14th April 2012, 01:39

I can see Mari3L is on here. Maybe she can answer my question. Pretty please?

Ostrinski

14th April 2012, 01:48

FUCK YES! Manic is gone... good riddance scumbag. Maybe now we can have a proper thread on women's struggles now that he's out of our hair.

Martin Blank

14th April 2012, 01:51

I think the PSL's politics are p. much trash but I always got the impression that they were very serious about 'womens struggles'.

The same thought went through my mind in the "Do working class men benefit from patriarchy" thread in Discrimination. Knowing their origins in the WWP, and both organizations' histories in women's struggles, manic's views seemed really out of step with the PSL. I know there are other PSLers on here, and I would hope that they would encourage their organization to take a serious look at what manic is saying.

Ostrinski

14th April 2012, 01:54

Maybe this will give Manic a chance to rethink his chauvinistic views.

NewLeft

14th April 2012, 01:55

I may be alone on this, but I don't think manic actually meant half of what he said. I think he really hates losing an argument.

Ele'ill

14th April 2012, 02:20

What the fuck happened to Manic Expression? He's banned!

I can see Mari3L is on here. Maybe she can answer my question. Pretty please?

You answered your own question.

Luc

14th April 2012, 03:04

What the fuck happened to Manic Expression? He's banned!

check the admins action thread bud

Thirsty Crow

15th April 2012, 14:16

ACAB

15th April 2012, 14:22

They should change the title to Contrived Insincere Bullshit Feminist Men Can Say In Order To Try And Score A Date With Activist Women

truth be truthful :thumbup1:

Vyacheslav Brolotov

15th April 2012, 17:36

It's probably obvious that I don't regret not having to suffer that idiot ever again, but did his activity in this thread really constitute "blatant sexism and mysoginy"?
From what I've managed to gather, he's an idiot who actually failed to understand the gist of the deal here.

There is too much worthless sensitivity on this website and, dare I say, some bourgeois feminism among the mods and admins. It would have been fine to simply restrict or infract him, by banning him just because he was being clueless is disgusting.

Thirsty Crow

15th April 2012, 18:04

There is too much worthless sensitivity on this website and, dare I say, some bourgeois feminism among the mods and admins. It would have been fine to simply restrict or infract him, by banning him just because he was being clueless is disgusting.
Well, he wasn't clueless, he was a slobbering idiot who seemed to harbour some pretty questionable views (now that I went over the whole of this shit of a thread), for instance, degrading personal experience of women which he justified with reference to him actually not upholding gender stereotypes (while on the other hand claiming that male behavour is to take up initiative and do so by commenting on the physical features of a woman; nothing wrong with hitting on a woman, but when you're being a hollering vulgar idiot, then...).