Sam Harris on meditation

[Elysian]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate/

Is meditation a bourgeois conspiracy to keep the working class stuck in transcendental experience and such illusions?

[Revolution starts with U]

No. But some advocates of it ARE supporters of the reactionary law of attraction and/or support capitalism against the unwashed masses.

Meditation can actually be very empowering and helpful practice.

[hatzel]

There's no such thing as a bourgeois conspiracy.

[Positivist]

I wouldn't say so. Perhaps some of the ideologies that advocate meditation are supportive to the capitalist relations of production though. I am referring to those mostly eastern traditions that promote inactivity and personal responsibility for suffering. These are dangerous to the development of workers conscioussness as they discourage taking action to improve material conditions, and as they decieve workers into blàming themselves for their dismal quality of life. Like any other spiritual ideology, the eastern faiths that endorse meditation provide illusory happiness for the proletariat in the stead of their real happiness. If your interested in meditation from a socialist perspective research Erich Fromm.

[Revolution starts with U]

There's no such thing as a bourgeois conspiracy.

Uh..yeah... its called "capitalism" dummy.

[Railyon]

Is meditation a bourgeois conspiracy to keep the working class stuck in transcendental experience and such illusions?

Well... I heard people say Marxism is a conspiracy to lull the working class into passivity with stupid theory... no joke.

Some people see conspiracies hiding around every corner.

And I disagree that capitalism is a bourgeois conspiracy. They conspire, yes, but that's just not how the system works...

[roy]

Conspiracies, conspiracies everywhere.

[hatzel]

Uh..yeah... its called "capitalism" dummy.

Maintaining:


There's no such thing as a bourgeois conspiracy.

[Astarte]

No. But some advocates of it ARE supporters of the reactionary law of attraction and/or support capitalism against the unwashed masses.

Meditation can actually be very empowering and helpful practice.

I am not sure "The Law of Attraction" is reactionary in and of itself, but only particularly when used by the modern snake-oil charlatans that peddle their books which are simply ripping off the Yoga concept of "I AM" as a personal catechism - all this does is build up one's own will power...

I recently picked up this used book "Spiritual Consciousness" by A.P. Mukerji from 1911, one section that seems to apply to this conversation reads:


"Our thoughts set up a magnetic center within us. Like attracts like. Good thoughts draw to themselves corresponding thoughts. This fact is very emphatic. Each tree brings forth fruits of its kind. If we think well, we cannot act ill. The greatest of a man must find its measure in the greatness of his thoughts, and not in the amount of money in his pocket or the bluster on his tongue.

"Our ideal is the hinge upon which our future turns. We create our own fate.

"The first essential is to pitch our aims high. Let us look upward and upward alone. ...

"If we weave our thoughts around a grand purpose in life the ideal so formed may take material form any day. Its impulsion may stir up concretions gross physical matter into activity and may clap spurs to the feet of even a lazy hack. So much the ideal.

"If the ideal is to be cherished, it must also be nourished. If you simply sit down and desire to get a thing, you will never get it and it is good for you that you should not. For the practical side of things must never be neglected. "Practice makes perfect." Having set currents of holy desire in motion, we must set to deepen them in intensity and volume."


Also he goes on in another chapter


"Diffusion of thoughts leads to confusion of results. Now suppose the brain to be a road filled with mud. A carriage rolls down the road. The wheels have left a deep, straight track right along the road. Another carriage passes on and deepens the track. It is exactly so with the brain. One thought passes through it and a track is made through the grey matter. The insensity of the thought will determine the depth of the track.

"As we think, nerve-tracks are created and the repetition of the same thought deepens that nerve-track. New sets of atoms start into activity. Brain-cells are multiplied, and fresh layers of matter cover up these tracks. A similar thought gives them a blow and they are shaken up, as it were, into new life."

So ... I can not see anything at all that could be considered "reactionary" about meditation, or attempting to control and guide one's own thought process - rather it is only reactionary when you allow people with interests contrary to your own to control your thoughts, and the absence of this kind of introspection would, indeed, make that more likely to happen - imagine if Lenin, or Marx, throughout all the adversity over the courses of their lives did not hold true to their ideals? Marx, in the face of poverty and exile kept struggling on, Lenin in the face of exile, arrest, and world war, likewise never lost heart - of course, as the above quotes mention, desiring without actually acting in the material world accomplishes nothing - but to have a positive frame of mind in which you convince yourself nothing but success is an option must be superior to its opposite...

[Yefim Zverev]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate/

Is meditation a bourgeois conspiracy to keep the working class stuck in transcendental experience and such illusions?

I would thank for this post a thousand times if only I could. Reputation well deserved.

I have witnessed how meditation killed a young person and totally made her senseless to everything around her.

[Revolution starts with U]

I am not sure "The Law of Attraction" is reactionary in and of itself, but only particularly when used by the modern snake-oil charlatans that peddle their books which are simply ripping off the Yoga concept of "I AM" as a personal catechism - all this does is build up one's own will power...

I recently picked up this used book "Spiritual Consciousness" by A.P. Mukerji from 1911, one section that seems to apply to this conversation reads:



Also he goes on in another chapter u



So ... I can not see anything at all that could be considered "reactionary" about meditation, or attempting to control and guide one's own thought process - rather it is only reactionary when you allow people with interests contrary to your own to control your thoughts, and the absence of this kind of introspection would, indeed, make that more likely to happen - imagine if Lenin, or Marx, throughout all the adversity over the courses of their lives did not hold true to their ideals? Marx, in the face of poverty and exile kept struggling on, Lenin in the face of exile, arrest, and world war, likewise never lost heart - of course, as the above quotes mention, desiring without actually acting in the material world accomplishes nothing - but to have a positive frame of mind in which you convince yourself nothing but success is an option must be superior to its opposite...
Meditation is not reactionary. Its the idea that if you wish it you will get it thereby assuming that if you don't have it you didn't believe enough and only have yourself to blame. The "Secret" literally advocates discrimination against undesireables.

To the poster below... go on?

I would thank for this post a thousand times if only I could. Reputation well deserved.

I have witnessed how meditation killed a young person and totally made her senseless to everything around her.

[Red Rabbit]

Meditation can be good whether you're religious or not.

[x359594]

Meditation can be good whether you're religious or not.

Definitely. It can be removed from its religious context and put to use, much as yoga is now simply body work without being tied to the Hindu religious system of caste, diet, worship, etc.

The kind of meditation mentioned by Harris is used as part of a chronic pain reduction program worked out at the MIT Hospital. The program was modified to cover stress-related illness such as high blood pressure.

[Zostrianos]

Meditation is a wonderful practice with countless benefits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Scientific_studies



Is meditation a bourgeois conspiracy to keep the working class stuck in transcendental experience and such illusions?

That's called 'advertising' not 'meditation'.

[Elysian]

Meditation is a wonderful practice with countless benefits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Scientific_studies



That's called 'advertising' not 'meditation'.

I am talking about new age stuff where gullible people are paying a lot of money to learn yoga, meditation.

[eyeheartlenin]

No. But some advocates of it ARE supporters of the reactionary law of attraction and/or support capitalism against the unwashed masses.

Meditation can actually be very empowering and helpful practice.

I would have thought that atheists were averse to religious practices; if Harris wrote positive things about meditation, then it's interesting that an atheist has embraced one element of spirituality.

Speaking as one of the masses, let me assure the comrade that we wash. :)

[pluckedflowers]

Given Harris' past joyful advocacy of the barbarism of the "war on terror," I'd be happy if he stuck with telling people to meditate.

[NGNM85]

Given Harris' past joyful advocacy of the barbarism of the "war on terror," I'd be happy if he stuck with telling people to meditate.

What 'joyful advocacy' are you referring to? I don't recall ever seeing anything of the sort. As far as I know; he's always been opposed to the war in Iraq, he condemned the abuses at Abu Ghraib, etc., etc.

[x359594]

What 'joyful advocacy' are you referring to? I don't recall ever seeing anything of the sort. As far as I know; he's always been opposed to the war in Iraq, he condemned the abuses at Abu Ghraib, etc., etc.

On the contrary, in many debates and public appearance Harris has cited the "ticking time bomb" thesis as an excuse for torture. Harris is a dyed-in-the wool neoconservative and Zionist.

"I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror. " Sam Harris. Note well: "...our war on terror." For the whole article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

[Elysian]

On the contrary, in many debates and public appearance Harris has cited the "ticking time bomb" thesis as an excuse for torture. Harris is a dyed-in-the wool neoconservative and Zionist.

"I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror. " Sam Harris. Note well: "...our war on terror." For the whole article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html

You're right. He is just a racist using anti-theism as a cover/alibi.

[Zealot]

No I don't think so but under certain conditions it can make the working class "stuck in transcendental experience and such illusions" and become as bad as the religious opium.

Meditation is not a bourgeois conspiracy and is, I don't doubt, very helpful to some people - even atheists. However, some forms of meditation have a lot of religious baggage as do many forms of Buddhism. Once you've weeded out the pseudo-science and dogma from meditation it can be successfully harnessed without regret or apathy by atheists as Sam Harris claims to have done.

[NGNM85]

On the contrary, in many debates and public appearance Harris has cited the "ticking time bomb" thesis as an excuse for torture.


…"I am one of the few people I know of who has argued in print that torture may be an ethical necessity …


At best, this is highly misleading. First of all; even opponents of torture, generally, agree with this. If you knew, with absolute metaphysical certitude, that an aspiring mass-murderer had planted an armed nuclear device in a major metropolitan area you would be ethically bound to use any means at your disposal to obtain the location of the device, etc. from the perpetrator. It’s the only sensible conclusion. This is one of the few things that the Right and the Left can pretty much agree on. The difference is that the far Right proceeds from the conclusion that torture is, at least, theoretically, morally permissible in some circumstances, to employing this as a blank check that permits the use of torture under a whole range of scenarios that are increasingly removed from the aforementioned hypothetical. Virtually none of the instances of torture utilized by the United States remotely resemble this hypothetical.

The article you cited is almost entirely theoretical. It’s concerned merely with the paradox between the public discourse concerning torture, and what’s termed ‘collateral damage.' Specifically; that the use of torture, even against individuals who are known to be mass murderers, elicits substantial outrage among the public, whereas ‘collateral damage’ in what are generally considered to be ‘just wars’, such as the bombing of Dresden, or the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima, and Nagasaki, register significantly lower on the emotional Richter scale. That’s a good point. Nowhere in that article does he actually give any concrete policy recommendations, as I said; it’s almost entirely theoretical. So what does Sam Harris actually think about torture, in practice? It’s made very clear in his Response to Controversy;

…I think that torture should remain illegal…’ and that; It seems probable, however, that any legal use of torture would have unacceptable consequences.’

(My emphasis.)

Later on, he suggests the following principle;

‘We will not torture anyone under any circumstances unless we are certain, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the person in our custody has operational knowledge of an imminent act of nuclear terrorism.’

(Again; my emphasis.)

Like I said; not only is this an entirely sensible recommendation, but there’s simply no other way to see it. In summation; Harris’ position on torture is pretty much in line with the majority of those who would consider themselves opponents of torture, including myself, as well as you, and most of the members of the forum.


Harris is a dyed-in-the wool neoconservative and Zionist.

I’ve always thought the term ; ‘neoconservative’ was highly dubious. I prefer to call the proponents of this ideology out for what they are; Reactionaries. Be that as it may; Sam Harris is not a ‘neoconservative’, in any sense of the word.

‘Perhaps I should establish my liberal bona fides at the outset. I’d like to see taxes raised on the wealthy, drugs decriminalized and homosexuals free to marry. I also think that the Bush administration deserves most of the criticism it has received in the last six years — especially with respect to its waging of the war in Iraq, its scuttling of science and its fiscal irresponsibility.’
http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-end-of-liberalism/

‘There is no doubt that the United States has much to atone for, both domestically, and abroad. …To produce this horrible confection at home, start with our genocidal treatment of the Native Americans, add a couple of hundred years of slavery, along with our denial of entry to Jewish refugees fleeing the death camps of the Third Reich, stir in our collusion with a long list of modern despots, and our subsequent disregard for their appalling human rights records, add our bombing of Cambodia and the Pentagon Papers to taste, and then top with our recent refusals to sign the Kyoto protocol for greenhouse emissions, to support any ban on land mines, and to submit ourselves to the rulings of the International Criminal Court. The result should smell of death, hypocrisy, and fresh brimstone. Nothing I have written in this book…should be construed as a denial of these facts, or as defense of state practices that are manifestly abhorrent.’
-End of Faith, Page 140

Etc., etc. I won’t belabor the point.

As far as being a Zionist, that would necessitate a long, and tedious discussion as to the nature of Zionism. I would suggest that the belief in the necessity of creating, and preserving Israel as a Jewish state, which Harris, clearly, does not support, is one of the sufficient conditions of Zionism. However; again, I don't want to derail the thread with a long, and tedious debate about this.


“…in our war on terror. " Sam Harris. Note well: "...our war on terror." For the whole article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html /QUOTE (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html /QUOTE)

You are correct in he used the phrase; ‘War on Terror.’ A broad, banner term which, in addition to being generally bogus, is incredibly imprecise. However; as I’ve demonstrated, Sam Harris is clearly opposed to the US governments’ use of torture, the war in Iraq, etc., which is implicit in the, again, broad characterization of the ‘War on Terror’, so to refer to him as an 'enthusiastic cheerleader' is, at best, highly misleading. I will give both Pluckedflowers, and yourself, the benefit of the doubt in that I suspect the problem is not deliberate duplicity on either part, but, rather, unfamiliarity with the subject matter.

[SpiritiualMarxist]

Meditation can actually be very empowering. I would say it could even be a tool for revolutionaries to clear their mind and prepare to kick some capitalist ass. Plenty of martial artist utilize meditation to help them prepare for intense training and I highly doubt they're being lulled.

Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise because they're idiots.

[Misanthrope]

No because meditation's goal is enlightenment, the loss of desire. The journey and completion of enlightenment is completely antithetical to capitalism. Materialism and consumerism are necessary for capitalism; meditation seeks to eliminate these vices.

Meditation has helped me with alcoholism and depression. It really is cleansing and enlightening.

[Kronsteen]

Is meditation a bourgeois conspiracy?

Only if workers are incapable of inventing their own bullshit.