I.n.l.a

[IrishWorker]

Irish National Liberation Army.


The Irish National Liberation Army were founded in December 1974 during a meeting in the Spa Hotel, County Dublin.

They were formed to fight for the goals of a thirty two county Irish Workers' Republic. The founding leader of the INLA was Seamus Costello. He had been active in various IRA campaigns before leaving to set up both the IRSP and INLA. He saw that the Official IRA ceasefire of the time was leading to reformism within the movement. After arguing his point of view within that organisation for some time he failed to convince the leadership of the folly of their direction. He was then expelled. The INLA, the army of Ireland's working class, was then formed to fight for National Liberation and Socialism. The INLA have been on ceasefire since September 1998 but have stayed active in defence of working class communities, particularly in Belfast interface areas where loyalist gangsters are repeatedly launching various pogroms against innocent communities.

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https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS87jF_YSQl8zJOE_xW2bfZYjAiCdHzx suBvGVxImwyPZ8gHSd90yORPou2

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlilYmkHwLq77dP1gAX5vOy9rVcrnyO RRl95JCKOG4r1sIcsWhvg

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSlilYmkHwLq77dP1gAX5vOy9rVcrnyO RRl95JCKOG4r1sIcsWhvg

[NoPasaran1936]

Now these fellas I do like, PIRA aimed for national liberation, but then what? more capitalism? I'm not a great fan of nationalism, however the IRSP/INLA had a clear goal, which would have benefited the world by bring about socialism. I think it would have helped us in the UK as well, perhaps act as a catalyst for change. I do enjoy reading about these guys, anyone know any books?
I also see the website in which you copypasta'd. Here's a brief history of action or any significant events since its formation.


Brief Chronology of INLA history

1974 Dec: INLA formed in Dublin

1975 Various attacks launched on INLA and IRSP members by OIRA. PLA formed to defend IRSP members from attack

1976 Special Category status revoked; Peace People founded; POW Ciarán Nugent (IRA) and Connolly Brady (INLA) begin "Blanket Protest"

1977 Seamus Costello assassinated by OIRA
1979 National H-Block/Armagh Committee founded. Airey Neave assassinated by INLA in car bomb attack in British Parliament.

1980 Hunger strike in the H-Blocks and Armagh Prison

1981 Hunger strike resumed after Britain failed to institute the agreed-upon five demands resulting in the death of three INLA and seven IRA prisoners of war

1982 Northern Ireland Assembly elections. INLA bomb Ballykelly disco killing 11 British occupation forces.

1983 Nicky Kelly hunger strike protesting against wrongful conviction for Sallins train robbery

1984 Dominic McGlinchey (INLA leader) becomes first person extradited from the 26 counties to the six counties; IRSP declares itself Marxist.

1986 Sinn Fein drops abstensionism, Republican Sinn Fein founded; Congress '86 founded by ex-IRA prisoners

1987 IPLO founded, attacks IRSP & INLA members. Ta Power and John O'Reilly amongst volunteers killed by counter revolutionary IPLO.

1992 IPLO disbands after internal feud and attacks by IRA for drug dealing

1994 PIRA ceasefire declared.

1995 INLA weapons shipment uncovered on main Dublin to Belfast road. Three arrested. One, Hugh Torney, declares INLA ceasefire from dock against army rules.

1996 Gino Gallagher, INLA leader, killed by drug dealers acting for Hugh Torney. INLA retaliate killing Torney and his gang members.

1997 INLA inmates kill leading loyalist, Billy Wright, in Long Kesh prison during daring daylight attack.

1998 INLA declares ceasefire in September

Present: INLA are currently active in defence of vulnerable nationalist communities in so called interface areas of Belfast and has taken action against drug dealers.

[daft punk]

"All Marxists in Russia began in the historic fight against terrorism".

Trotsky

[Jolly Red Giant]

The INLA, the army of Ireland's working class

Excuse me while I :laugh:

[IrishWorker]

Excuse me while I :laugh:


Slide on ya Trot coward.

[Revolutionair]

Aren't you afraid that the increase in nationalism might be used by the bourgeoisie as a weapon against socialism?

Also please don't reply to trolls. Trolls make their tedency look bad, they behave like intellectual dwarves, replying to them shrinks you as well.

[IrishWorker]

Aren't you afraid that the increase in nationalism might be used by the bourgeoisie as a weapon against socialism?

Also please don't reply to trolls. Trolls make their tedency look bad, they behave like intellectual dwarves, replying to them shrinks you as well.
Of course I am but Republicanism is a far cry from jingoistic nationalism.

[Tim Cornelis]

Serious question, what's the point of national liberation?

Also, if Great Britain and Ireland wanted to become socialist jointly, would you object to it? (they becoming one socialist nation of sorts).

[Grenzer]

Serious question, what's the point of national liberation?

Also, if Great Britain and Ireland wanted to become socialist jointly, would you object to it? (they becoming one socialist nation of sorts).

The idea is that by supporting the petty bourgeois leaders and nationalism, communists can hope to radicalize the movement and bring about socialism. Of course, it never works and in practice is just supporting capitalism. Kind of dumb, but whatevs..

Even if it does work, the disease of nationalism will remain a problem, like in the hypothetical situation you pointed out. Nationalism of any sort is completely antithetical to our goals.

[Prometeo liberado]

I think maybe some here do not fully understand the cause of Republicanism, or confuse it with nationalism, as it pertains to the cause for an Irish workers state. Does it not make sense that the fact that Guantanamo, being an imperialist outpost, has directly impacted the cause for Cuban self-dertermination and Socialism? Is that Nationalism or just reality? So to as long as Northern Ireland acts as a bulwark against the progressive forces of Ireland there can be no movement forward in terms of national reconciliation and socialism.

[Dr Doom]

Slide on ya Trot coward.

while being a republican automatically makes you a hard bastard.

on topic : basically the inla/irsp were formed after a split from the offical ira in 1974. they were infamous for some really bloody internal feuding, leaving a trail of dead bodies along the way. i used to be quite sympathetic to them a few years ago and tbh some of folk in the irsp do seem genuine enough but the organisation itself reeks of apologism for sectarian murder and gangsterism.

the inla along with all the other republican groups and their loyalist counterparts are a constant curse on the working class here =(

[Revolutionair]

Of course I am but Republicanism is a far cry from jingoistic nationalism.

What are the differences? How is Irish Republicanism not inherently nationalist?

[Avocado]

I am in favour of soft nationalism/cultural nationalism - that is, cultural expression and identity, but fuck the borders.

You wonder what Connolly fought for?

Anti-imperialism? Sovereignty? The Irish State? The working class? A socialist society?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

on topic : basically the inla/irsp were formed after a split from the offical ira in 1974. they were infamous for some really bloody internal feuding
Was it "internal feuding" when the IRSM was attacked by the OIRA, or by people who had been expelled (and oddly enough, after having done their damage, some of them were welcomed with open arms by the PIRA), or by people who had made a deal with the state?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Let's be perfectly clear about this -

The claim made that the INLA is -


the army of Ireland's working class,

Is utter claptrap and totally delusional. It has nothing to do with the Irish working class - it is in no way representative of the Irish working class - it never had any support among the Irish working class - and the antics of the INLA are an anathema to the Irish working class.

The INLA was/is a republican paramilitary organisation that is known for some of the worst sectarian killings in the North over the period of the Troubles, is known for internal feuds and has done nothing but harm to the potential for a socialist revolution in Ireland.

The following summary will demonstrate that the INLA are/were a bunch of nutjobs who killed each other as well Protestant and Catholic civilians along with their actions against state forces.

The INLA were responsible for 113 killings during the Troubles - this is a breakdown -

British Security Forces - 46
Irish Security Forces - 2
Civilians - 39
Civilian Political Activists - 3
Republican Paramilitaries - 16
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 7
(Source - CAIN website)

The INLA was formed in 1974 - it began killing people on 25 Feb 1975 when the INLA shot an OIRA member Sean Fox in retaliation for the OIRA killing of Hugh Ferguson. The first three people the INLA killed were members of the OIRA. Over the rest of the year the INLA killed 2 RUC men and a British soldier before in December INLA gunmen went into a restaurant on the Strand Road in Derry, singled out two Protestant civilians before shooting them. To justify the killings the INLA claimed they were members of the UDA - they weren't.

The INLA started off 1976 in glorious fashion. on 7 Feb they killed a 14 year old Catholic boy Thomas Raftery in Portadown who accidentally set off a booby-trap bomb. In September 1976 the INLA shot up a house in Finaghy killing two Protestant civilians - 19 year old Rosaleen Kyle and her 61 year old grandfather. James Kyle was a 'chief inspector' of banking facilities in the area - the INLA mistook him for a 'chief inspector' in the RUC. In December the INLA attempted to bomb the Tavern Bar in Portadown - they shot a bouncer on the door when he tried to stop them. James Liggett was a 67 year old member of the Orange Order.

The INLA was relatively quite in 1977 aside from killing a British soldier in January, they got a 16 year old boy to shoot dead a magistrate in Portadown. The boy's mother and brother had previously been killed in Loyalist attacks. It was one of the most cynical manipulations of a young boy by any paramilitary group during the Troubles.

By 1979 the INLA were back with avengence - killing Airey Neave - killing a female prison officer in a gun and grenade attack outside Armagh Prison. They then blew up a former RUC man in Portadown and finished it off by killing David Teeney, a 25 year old Protestant worker employed by the Prison Service.

August 1980 saw another 'accidental' shooting - this time a 19 year old Catholic, James McCarron, who was killed during a sniper attack on a British Army patrol. Three weeks later another 'accident' - 52 year old Catholic, Frank McGrory is killed by an INLA booby-trap bomb. After the killing of Ronnie Bunting and Noel Little by the UDA, the INLA kill another man in a case of mistaken identity - Protestant bank worker, Thomas Orr, was killed two weeks after he bought a second-hand car from an RUC reservist. Knowing the dangers, Orr had changed the car's registration - the INLA killed him based on the make, model and colour of the car alone.

The INLA were very active in 1981 - starting by killing three RUC men and a UDR man before INLA volunteer, James Power blew himself up while planting a bomb in the Markets area of Belfast. Three INLA men die on hunger strike - and after killing a UDA and a UDR member - they finish the year by killing 28 year old Catholic Edward Brogan and dumping his body in a rubbish tip in Derry. The INLA claimed Brogan was an informer.

June 1982 saw the INLA kill another Catholic 'accidentally' when 16 year old Patrick Smith set off an INLA booby-trap bomb in Belfast. Two days later the INLA killed OIRA man James Flynn in Dublin after a new feud between the INLA and OIRA erupted. On the 16 September one of the INLA's spectaculars - a remote control bomb kills a British soldier on patrol. The problem was the bomb also killed two Catholic boys playing nearby - 14 year old Stephen Bennett and 12 year old Kevin Valliday. A week later the INLA shot and kill a 68 year old Protestant civilian, William Nixon in Belfast. In between killing members of the state forces, the INLA killed 20 year old Protestant civilian Karen McKeown outside a church hall in Belfast.

On 6th of December 1982 the INLA blow up the Dropping Well pub in Ballykelly - killing 11 British soldiers and 6 civilians - 4 local Protestants, 1 local Catholic and one visitor from England - 5 were women who the INLA claimed were 'consorts' of the british soldiers. In a statement the INLA said: "We believe that it is only attacks of such a nature that brings it home to the people in Britain and the British establishment. The shooting of an individual soldier, for the people of Britain, has very little effect in terms of the media or in terms of the British administration." It later emerged that the INLA planted the bomb after deciding that there were enough british soldiers there to warrant the killing of civilians.

1983 saw the INLA kill a few soldiers and police officers and the BA and RUC kill some INLA volunteers. The INLA also shot one of the own members, Eric Dale, in May claiming he was an informer. In October they shot another one of their own members, Gerard Barkley, for the same reason. In between that the INLA killed two Catholics, Eamon McMahon and Patrick Mackin, who were shot in their car for unknown reasons. McMahon was a brother-in-law of Eric Dale. The two were shot by Dominic and Mary McGlinchey and it is suggested that it was done by the McGlinchey's in an attempt by his faction to assert control over the INLA.

The INLA wwere relatively quiet in 1984 - killing a UDR man and an RUC man (an INLA volunteer was killed in this attack) and also killing John George, a 26 year old Catholic in Belfast that the INLA claimed was a local criminal.

1985 was a busy year for the INLA - not because of acts in the 'struggle for national liberation' - but for other stuff. On 20 April they firebombed a supermarket in Dublin as a protest against apartheid during a strike by Dunnes Stores workers. The striking workers condemn the firebombing. A couple of weeks later then INLA 'disappear' former member Seamus Ruddy in Paris - his body is never found. At the end of June the INLA kill a cop during a post office robbery in Ardee, Co Louth. In September the INLA kill another one of their own members from Dublin, James Burnett, claiming he is an informer.

December 1986 sees the outbreak of the IPLO/INLA feud. The INLA describe the IPLO in vasrious way from 'counter-revolutionaries' to 'traitors'. Dec. 1986 IPLO kill INLA's Thomas McCartan in Belfast. A further 12 people die in 1987 as a result of the feud. In between killing one another the INLA found time to kill 72 year old Protestant Iris Farley during an attempt to kill her son who was a member of the RUC and killed one of their own members Patrick Cunningham in a different internal dispute. They also shoot Catholic man, James McDaid, in Crossmaglen who they claimed was a local criminal.

After the bloody INLA/IPLO feud 1988, 1989 and 1990 were relatively quiet for the INLA with only a couple of fatal actions - the British army shoot two INLA men during this period while the INLA kill a UDR man.

Back to business in 1991 when the INLA kill one of their own members, Gerard Burns for being an informer. In December the INLA kill 19 year old Protestant Robin Farmer during an assassination attempt on his father - an ex-RUC man.

In January 1993 the INLA kill 30 year old Protestant, Seamus Rock, in Belfast in another case of mistaken identity - the INLA claimed Rock was a member of the UDA - he wasn't - two weeks before his death, Rock had bought a car from a leading UDA man on the Shankill Road. In June the INLA kill Catholic, John Murphy in Belfast. Murphy was a former member of the RUC.

In February 1994 former INLA leader, Dominic McGlinchey is gunned down and killed in Drogheda. No one has admitted responsibility for the killing. Two weeks later the INLA kill a Protestant bouncer, Jack Smith, outside a pub in Belfast. In April the INLA kill another Protestant, Gerard Evans , at his shop in Glengormley. No reason is known for the killing. A week later the INLA killed another Protestant worker, Thomas Douglas, outside his workplace at the Electricity Board.

1996 saw a further internal INLA dispute - INLA leader Gino Gallagher is shot dead in Belfast by the INLA. This is followed by the deaths of John Fennell, who was beaten to death in a caravan in Donegal, Barbara McAlorum who was killed by INLA in an attempt on the life of a relative of hers, Dessie McCleary, shot in Belfast, Francis Shannon, also shot in Belfast, Dermot McShane, shot in Derry, Hugh Torney, shot in Lurgan. Seven deaths in 1996 - all INLA - all by INLA.

The INLA declared a ceasefire in 1998 - but that didn't stop them killing Derek Lenehan in another internal dispute (reported to be over the distribution of money from a robbery) in 2001. In 2009 the INLA shot dead an alleged drug dealer in Derry.

Now I haven't mentioned the antics of the likes of Dessie O'Hare and his penchant for cutting peoples fingers off with anything handy like bolt-cutters or a hammer and chisel.

[IrishWorker]

Let's be perfectly clear about this -

The claim made that the INLA is -



Is utter claptrap and totally delusional. It has nothing to do with the Irish working class - it is in no way representative of the Irish working class - it never had any support among the Irish working class - and the antics of the INLA are an anathema to the Irish working class.

The INLA was/is a republican paramilitary organisation that is known for some of the worst sectarian killings in the North over the period of the Troubles, is known for internal feuds and has done nothing but harm to the potential for a socialist revolution in Ireland.

The following summary will demonstrate that the INLA are/were a bunch of nutjobs who killed each other as well Protestant and Catholic civilians along with their actions against state forces.

The INLA were responsible for 113 killings during the Troubles - this is a breakdown -

British Security Forces - 46
Irish Security Forces - 2
Civilians - 39
Civilian Political Activists - 3
Republican Paramilitaries - 16
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 7
(Source - CAIN website)

The INLA was formed in 1974 - it began killing people on 25 Feb 1975 when the INLA shot an OIRA member Sean Fox in retaliation for the OIRA killing of Hugh Ferguson. The first three people the INLA killed were members of the OIRA. Over the rest of the year the INLA killed 2 RUC men and a British soldier before in December INLA gunmen went into a restaurant on the Strand Road in Derry, singled out two Protestant civilians before shooting them. To justify the killings the INLA claimed they were members of the UDA - they weren't.

The INLA started off 1976 in glorious fashion. on 7 Feb they killed a 14 year old Catholic boy Thomas Raftery in Portadown who accidentally set off a booby-trap bomb. In September 1976 the INLA shot up a house in Finaghy killing two Protestant civilians - 19 year old Rosaleen Kyle and her 61 year old grandfather. James Kyle was a 'chief inspector' of banking facilities in the area - the INLA mistook him for a 'chief inspector' in the RUC. In December the INLA attempted to bomb the Tavern Bar in Portadown - they shot a bouncer on the door when he tried to stop them. James Liggett was a 67 year old member of the Orange Order.

The INLA was relatively quite in 1977 aside from killing a British soldier in January, they got a 16 year old boy to shoot dead a magistrate in Portadown. The boy's mother and brother had previously been killed in Loyalist attacks. It was one of the most cynical manipulations of a young boy by any paramilitary group during the Troubles.

By 1979 the INLA were back with avengence - killing Airey Neave - killing a female prison officer in a gun and grenade attack outside Armagh Prison. They then blew up a former RUC man in Portadown and finished it off by killing David Teeney, a 25 year old Protestant worker employed by the Prison Service.

August 1980 saw another 'accidental' shooting - this time a 19 year old Catholic, James McCarron, who was killed during a sniper attack on a British Army patrol. Three weeks later another 'accident' - 52 year old Catholic, Frank McGrory is killed by an INLA booby-trap bomb. After the killing of Ronnie Bunting and Noel Little by the UDA, the INLA kill another man in a case of mistaken identity - Protestant bank worker, Thomas Orr, was killed two weeks after he bought a second-hand car from an RUC reservist. Knowing the dangers, Orr had changed the car's registration - the INLA killed him based on the make, model and colour of the car alone.

The INLA were very active in 1981 - starting by killing three RUC men and a UDR man before INLA volunteer, James Power blew himself up while planting a bomb in the Markets area of Belfast. Three INLA men die on hunger strike - and after killing a UDA and a UDR member - they finish the year by killing 28 year old Catholic Edward Brogan and dumping his body in a rubbish tip in Derry. The INLA claimed Brogan was an informer.

June 1982 saw the INLA kill another Catholic 'accidentally' when 16 year old Patrick Smith set off an INLA booby-trap bomb in Belfast. Two days later the INLA killed OIRA man James Flynn in Dublin after a new feud between the INLA and OIRA erupted. On the 16 September one of the INLA's spectaculars - a remote control bomb kills a British soldier on patrol. The problem was the bomb also killed two Catholic boys playing nearby - 14 year old Stephen Bennett and 12 year old Kevin Valliday. A week later the INLA shot and kill a 68 year old Protestant civilian, William Nixon in Belfast. In between killing members of the state forces, the INLA killed 20 year old Protestant civilian Karen McKeown outside a church hall in Belfast.

On 6th of December 1982 the INLA blow up the Dropping Well pub in Ballykelly - killing 11 British soldiers and 6 civilians - 4 local Protestants, 1 local Catholic and one visitor from England - 5 were women who the INLA claimed were 'consorts' of the british soldiers. In a statement the INLA said: "We believe that it is only attacks of such a nature that brings it home to the people in Britain and the British establishment. The shooting of an individual soldier, for the people of Britain, has very little effect in terms of the media or in terms of the British administration." It later emerged that the INLA planted the bomb after deciding that there were enough british soldiers there to warrant the killing of civilians.

1983 saw the INLA kill a few soldiers and police officers and the BA and RUC kill some INLA volunteers. The INLA also shot one of the own members, Eric Dale, in May claiming he was an informer. In October they shot another one of their own members, Gerard Barkley, for the same reason. In between that the INLA killed two Catholics, Eamon McMahon and Patrick Mackin, who were shot in their car for unknown reasons. McMahon was a brother-in-law of Eric Dale. The two were shot by Dominic and Mary McGlinchey and it is suggested that it was done by the McGlinchey's in an attempt by his faction to assert control over the INLA.

The INLA wwere relatively quiet in 1984 - killing a UDR man and an RUC man (an INLA volunteer was killed in this attack) and also killing John George, a 26 year old Catholic in Belfast that the INLA claimed was a local criminal.

1985 was a busy year for the INLA - not because of acts in the 'struggle for national liberation' - but for other stuff. On 20 April they firebombed a supermarket in Dublin as a protest against apartheid during a strike by Dunnes Stores workers. The striking workers condemn the firebombing. A couple of weeks later then INLA 'disappear' former member Seamus Ruddy in Paris - his body is never found. At the end of June the INLA kill a cop during a post office robbery in Ardee, Co Louth. In September the INLA kill another one of their own members from Dublin, James Burnett, claiming he is an informer.

December 1986 sees the outbreak of the IPLO/INLA feud. The INLA describe the IPLO in vasrious way from 'counter-revolutionaries' to 'traitors'. Dec. 1986 IPLO kill INLA's Thomas McCartan in Belfast. A further 12 people die in 1987 as a result of the feud. In between killing one another the INLA found time to kill 72 year old Protestant Iris Farley during an attempt to kill her son who was a member of the RUC and killed one of their own members Patrick Cunningham in a different internal dispute. They also shoot Catholic man, James McDaid, in Crossmaglen who they claimed was a local criminal.

After the bloody INLA/IPLO feud 1988, 1989 and 1990 were relatively quiet for the INLA with only a couple of fatal actions - the British army shoot two INLA men during this period while the INLA kill a UDR man.

Back to business in 1991 when the INLA kill one of their own members, Gerard Burns for being an informer. In December the INLA kill 19 year old Protestant Robin Farmer during an assassination attempt on his father - an ex-RUC man.

In January 1993 the INLA kill 30 year old Protestant, Seamus Rock, in Belfast in another case of mistaken identity - the INLA claimed Rock was a member of the UDA - he wasn't - two weeks before his death, Rock had bought a car from a leading UDA man on the Shankill Road. In June the INLA kill Catholic, John Murphy in Belfast. Murphy was a former member of the RUC.

In February 1994 former INLA leader, Dominic McGlinchey is gunned down and killed in Drogheda. No one has admitted responsibility for the killing. Two weeks later the INLA kill a Protestant bouncer, Jack Smith, outside a pub in Belfast. In April the INLA kill another Protestant, Gerard Evans , at his shop in Glengormley. No reason is known for the killing. A week later the INLA killed another Protestant worker, Thomas Douglas, outside his workplace at the Electricity Board.

1996 saw a further internal INLA dispute - INLA leader Gino Gallagher is shot dead in Belfast by the INLA. This is followed by the deaths of John Fennell, who was beaten to death in a caravan in Donegal, Barbara McAlorum who was killed by INLA in an attempt on the life of a relative of hers, Dessie McCleary, shot in Belfast, Francis Shannon, also shot in Belfast, Dermot McShane, shot in Derry, Hugh Torney, shot in Lurgan. Seven deaths in 1996 - all INLA - all by INLA.

The INLA declared a ceasefire in 1998 - but that didn't stop them killing Derek Lenehan in another internal dispute (reported to be over the distribution of money from a robbery) in 2001. In 2009 the INLA shot dead an alleged drug dealer in Derry.

Now I haven't mentioned the antics of the likes of Dessie O'Hare and his penchant for cutting peoples fingers off with anything handy like bolt-cutters or a hammer and chisel.

So, whats your point?

[Jolly Red Giant]

So, whats your point?
Do you require some reading lessons? :rolleyes:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It has nothing to do with the Irish working class
Except for the part that it was made of mostly of working class men and women, probably more so than your Socialist Party.


INLA are/were a bunch of nutjobs who killed each other
The so-called "internal feuds" were acts of self-defense against other organizations or people who had been expelled. But, hey, don't let the truth get in your way.

[Dr Doom]

Except for the part that it was made of mostly of working class men and women

yeah and so was the UVF. didn't make either group less prone to sectarian gangsterism.



The so-called "internal feuds" were acts of self-defense against other organizations or people who had been expelled. But, hey, don't let the truth get in your way.


its hilarious how all the internal feuding can be simply put down to some 'rogue elements' or ex members etc. like the irsm were perfect except for a few bad apples. maybe it was the nature of the organisation itself? cant be a coincidence that the inla attracted all these scum.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

its hilarious how all the internal feuding can be simply put down to some 'rogue elements' or ex members etc.
The OIRA was a separate organization.

The IPLO was a separate organization, even if most of its members were ex-INLA, and some of its leaders were offered positions in the PIRA after damaging the IRSM. Interesting how during the same time span, the Provos forced out their republican critics to the right and their republican critics to the left were nearly destroyed.

The Torney Gang might have been closest to an internal feud, but Torney was expelled after making a deal with the state and his right hand man had an intelligence handler.

I'm quite sure the British state was running a COINTELPRO-like program in the North of Ireland.


maybe it was the nature of the organisation itself? cant be a coincidence that the inla attracted all these scum.
In the 1980s, political vetting of new members wasn't seen as important as trying to quickly increase numbers. That was clearly a mistake.

[Lilith]

How does someone from the northwest United States go about becoming a member of the IRSP? It seems quite silly.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How does someone from the northwest United States go about becoming a member of the IRSP? It seems quite silly.
I joined the IRSCNA at a time when full members were also granted dual membership in the IRSP.

[IrishWorker]

Do you require some reading lessons? :rolleyes:

It was sarcasm you prick.

[IrishWorker]

How does someone from the northwest United States go about becoming a member of the IRSP? It seems quite silly.

The clue is in the title, Irish Republican Socialist Committee for North America.

[Lilith]

Silly as hell.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What's silly about a political party deciding to not limit membership based on geography?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Socialist_Committees_of_North_Ame rica) is a generally accurate account of the IRSCNA's history.

[Lilith]

I just think it is pretty silly to consider yourself to be "in" an Irish Republican organization when you are A) not Irish, and B) live on another continent. But hey, that's just me...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I just think it is pretty silly to consider yourself to be "in" an Irish Republican organization when you are A) not Irish, and B) live on another continent. But hey, that's just me...
Since I am in fact a member of the IRSP, and have the same rights and responsibilities as any other member, how is it silly to consider myself "in" the IRSP?

[Prometeo liberado]

I just think it is pretty silly to consider yourself to be "in" an Irish Republican organization when you are A) not Irish, and B) live on another continent. But hey, that's just me...

Sorry but that is the most ass backward way of looking at this or any anti-imperialist struggle. Association based on the purity of ones ethnic blood? C'mon!

[Tim Finnegan]

Except for the part that it was made of mostly of working class men and women, probably more so than your Socialist Party.
The distinction between the working class-in-itself and the working class-for-itself is pretty crucial here. Unless an organisation contributes to the struggle of labour against capital, it is not in the Marxian sense a working class organisation- it is not an organisation of the working class as the working class- regardless of the socio-economic background of its membership.

[Jolly Red Giant]

It was sarcasm you prick.
Yes - that is the IRSP I know and have known for more than 30 years - when someone confronts you with the reality of the 'armed struggle for national liberation' you resort to type - tossing insults around like confetti.

During the course of it's existance the INLA killed double the number of republican paramilitaries as loyalist paramilitaries - not for the want of trying though - the problem was that when the INLA went to shoot a loyalist paramilitary they ineviatbly ended up shooting an innocent bystander. Furthermore - on numerous occasions when the INLA targetted the Brits they ended up killing innocent Catholics including children. The INLA justified killing innocent working class women on the grounds that they shouldn't have been drinking in a pub with British soldiers and the INLA also decided how many civilians it was appropriate to kill in order to strike a 'blow' at the British state - some blow - the Brits are still there. Lastly and in my opinion, most despicably the INLA used the grief and anger of a young boy and sent him out to murder a Protestant magistrate. That killing had nothing to do with the 'struggle for national liberation' and everything to do with feed the revenge that this youth wanted because of the deaths of family members.

The INLA were notorious for engaging in bloody feuds with other republican paramilitaries - both inside and outside their own organisation - and the deaths are only a small part of the feuding, there was numerous attempted assassinations (including one I witnessed myself) - numerous beatings (again one I witnessed myself) etc during these feuds. They also targetted petty criminals and on occasion exacted some personal revenge on individuals they didn't like (again something I was witness to).

The IRSP/INLA throughout its entire existance (certainly after the killing of Seamus Costello) played an anti-working class role, fermented sectarianism in the North and played a completely counter-productive role in the workers movement in the South (fortunately they had little influence) - the IRSP/INLA has no base in the workers movement in the North.

Fortunately things have changed for the better - the INLA have dumped their arms - but the IRSM still has not learned the lessons of the past- still do not understand the counter-productive nature of their activities and occassionally still engage in the same dismissive insults that they toss at those who dare question their politics.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Unless an organisation contributes to the struggle of labour against capital
The IRSP has and does, despite what some sectarian Trots may say.

[Tim Finnegan]

Well, the occasional incident isn't really what I was talking about- by that reckoning, Clement Atlee could be considered a communist- but for purposes of argument, do you have any examples? I'll admit ignorance as to the less, ahem, public activities of the IRSP. and its associated organisations

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Well, the occasional incident isn't really what I was talking about- by that reckoning, Clement Atlee could be considered a communist- but for purposes of argument, do you have any examples? I'll admit ignorance as to the less, ahem, public activities of the IRSP. and its associated organisations
Members have been active in union organizing and activism; organizing around class issues like housing, jobs, and local community issues; taken part in anti-war actions; at different points have been active around women's liberation, abortion rights, divorce rights, and LGBT issues; as internationalists, have worked with other Left groups as far away as Turkey and Palestine; and more recently, some members were involved with Occupy Belfast. There's also an ongoing and successful weekly stall in Belfast to meet fellow workers and try to educate them about socialism (and I believe they've also had some in Strabane).

And, yes, there was a long period when the party was barely active, from the mid-80s to the mid-90s, when these criticisms would have been more valid.

[Revolutionair]

What is your view on socialism?

Your tendency says "Libertarian Marxism", do you consider socialism to be synonymous with communism, IE a classless and stateless society?



Also nobody answered my last question yet:

What are the differences (between Irish Republicanism and nationalism)? How is Irish Republicanism not inherently nationalist?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

do you consider socialism to be synonymous with communism, IE a classless and stateless society?
Yes, I do.


Also nobody answered my last question yet: What are the differences (between Irish Republicanism and nationalism)? How is Irish Republicanism not inherently nationalist?
I would make a distinction between reactionary nationalism and anti-imperialist nationalism.

[Revolutionair]

I would make a distinction between reactionary nationalism and anti-imperialist nationalism.

How is anti-imperialist nationalism not reactionary? The idea that nations are a part of our identity presupposes a nationless society. Strengthening the propaganda for nationalism will cause problems in the long run? Also it might create a situation where different national identities are facing eachother, instead of these same people working together to abolish class society.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How is anti-imperialist nationalism not reactionary?
So you side with imperialism then. I see.


Also it might create a situation where different national identities are facing eachother, instead of these same people working together to abolish class society.
It could, especially if it's not carried out as part of the broader class struggle. If workers have common interest in opposing the bourgeoisie, shouldn't that include all bourgeoisie? Do you doubt that if there was a strong uprising in Ireland against capitalism, that the Irish bourgeoisie and the British bourgeoisie wouldn't unite to try to crush it? Under the historical conditions of Ireland, class struggle presupposes anti-imperialist struggle, and only the success of both as part of the global class struggle can ultimately put an end to nations.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'll also say that the Irish anti-imperialist struggle has too often fallen into the trap of armed struggle being a guiding principle. Armed struggle is not a substitute for mass struggle, even if it may have been necessary when there were troops and death squads on the streets.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Also it might create a situation where different national identities are facing eachother, instead of these same people working together to abolish class society.
Just to clarify, it was the bourgeoisie who engendered a situation where different national identities were facing each other instead of working together, to keep first the peasants and then the workers divided.

After the partition of Ireland, the northern ruling class was happy to see that continue to keep northern workers divided, while the southern ruling class was also happy to see it continue to scare southern workers away from the anti-imperialist struggle which was not in the interests of either the northern or the southern ruling classes.

As James Connolly had predicted, the partition of Ireland lead to a carnival of reaction on both sides of the border.

Blaming these divisions on anti-imperialists is ridiculous, although it must be said that Irish anti-imperialists are divided into those who are social democrats at best and those who are revolutionary anti-capitalists.

[Revolutionair]

So you side with imperialism then. I see.

Either that or you should shut the fuck up instead of calling me an imperialist.

[Revolutionair]

It could, especially if it's not carried out as part of the broader class struggle.

The only place where this problem is not dominant is Palestine, where Israeli workers (not sure on the number) and Palestinian workers realize that a united labor movement against the Israeli state is beneficial. But even that is become less of a reality day by day, because that struggle is becoming more focused on national identities.


If workers have common interest in opposing the bourgeoisie, shouldn't that include all bourgeoisie?

Exactly! The state IS class society, as a libertarian Marxist you must agree with this. The fight for Irish nationalism is a fight for a more rigid Irish state.


Do you doubt that if there was a strong uprising in Ireland against capitalism, that the Irish bourgeoisie and the British bourgeoisie wouldn't unite to try to crush it?

What does this have to do with the cause of strengthening Irish nationalism?


Under the historical conditions of Ireland, class struggle presupposes anti-imperialist struggle, and only the success of both as part of the global class struggle can ultimately put an end to nations.

Why do we need both?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The fight for Irish nationalism is a fight for a more rigid Irish state.
Perhaps "nationalism" doesn't really describe the merging of the class struggle and the anti-imperialist struggle with the goal of smashing both states on the island of Ireland, because that perspective sets it apart from nationalism that wants a unified bourgeois state.


Why do we need both?
Because imperialism in Ireland is a weapon of the ruling classes. It isn't anti-imperialism that has divided the working class on the island of Ireland, it's imperialism. The fight against capital must also be the fight against imperialism, and vice versa.

[-NW2-]

Some ridiculous posts in this thread. People having a go at someone for being a member of the IRSP when they are not even Irish (how they know who is Irish and who isnt I dont know, plenty of Irish people in America), and the usual stuff about the INLA doing nothing but being involved in feuding and criminality.

Firstly, How is it relevant if someone is Irish or not? Should we not care about Palestine because we are not palestinian? Ridiculous post.

Secondly, Im sure most supporters of the IRSP would readily admit that there were at times serious problems in the INLA. What is rarely admitted though is that the INLA was warped from nearly its birth by attacks from the Officials and losing Costello to an Official assination. People talk as if they formed themselves up with the intention of being a sectarian, criminal gang. Thats pure s***e. Why would 3 members hunger strike to death for a criminal gang? Why would people suffer years in appaling conditions 'on the blanket' if they were just sectarian criminals? Why would they put up with their families being targetted by British death squads etc etc.

Ta Power readily admitted the faults of the movement. Namely that the IRSP didnt not control the movement but the army council did. The movement suffered from splits and at times attracted unsavoury elements (who later went on to form the IPLO) because politics were not in command.

I think most supporters of the IRSP would readily admit that there were faults. What annoys most however is when people on the Irish left ignore the elephant in the room that Britain occupies a part of Ireland. The IRSP (correctly in my view) think that there is no place for armed struggle at the moment. But the INLA and the IRSP of the 70's and 80's were living through very different times. There was a war going on the 6 counties, whether people want to believe it or not. British death squads were active, British soldiers were killing people on the streets and people were living in pretty much a fascist state.

As Lenin said, people who wait for a pure revolution will never live to see it. Of course some things went wrong, but the INLA/IRSP were a working class party that thought armed struggle at that time could drive out British Imperialism in Ireland and bring about a 32 county Socialist Republic. They were wrong (with hindsight), but were they wrong to try?

I'd recommend people have a look at the IRSP website and discussion forum to learn more about todays IRSM. The party is active on social issues affecting the working class of Ireland. They have rebuilt the party from a nearly moribund state in the mid 90's.

Im not a member but someone who supports the ideal of a Socialist Republic. The ideas of Connolly, whether its the IRSP, Eirigi the CPI or whoever.

[Tim Finnegan]

Why would 3 members hunger strike to death for a criminal gang?
Lots of people are willing to die for the state.

[Zederbaum]

As Lenin said, people who wait for a pure revolution will never live to see it. Of course some things went wrong, but the INLA/IRSP were a working class party that thought armed struggle at that time could drive out British Imperialism in Ireland and bring about a 32 county Socialist Republic. They were wrong (with hindsight), but were they wrong to try?

Probably. Unpalatable as it may have been, perhaps they should have stuck with the Officials and attempted to operate as a left flank within them. It might even have prevented the Officials' rather weird trajectory on the national question. In any case, pursing an armed campaign with minority support wasn't a recipe for success.

It's true that the British state was up to its eyes in fostering divisions, creating splits and feuds (what else are all those security agencies for?). But this just shows how thoroughly the British defeated the INLA, much more defeated than the Provos it has to be said. A small guerrilla army - and descriptions the INLA as the army of the working class are laughably exaggerated - which is unable to hold any territory is liable to be throughly penetrated by the stronger state force.

Once civil rights had been achieved, the struggle should have focused on social and political strategies rather than military ones. Perhaps it always should have, but in the context of state violence in the late 1960s, a violent reaction is understandable.

All hindsight of course, but there's not much in looking at history is we aren't to learn from it.


Im not a member but someone who supports the ideal of a Socialist Republic. The ideas of Connolly, whether its the IRSP, Eirigi the CPI or whoever.I find Eirigi's nationalism to be very off putting. What's that silly sticker they have around Dublin: "Gan teanga, gan anam" (No language, no soul). Nationalist gibberish. Irish Republicans are remarkably unrepublican. They are nationalists who use republican rhetoric. Mostly they come across as Catholic Defenders, which given the social evolution of Ireland is going to be less and less attractive.

[-NW2-]

Lots of people are willing to die for the state.


Whats that supposed to mean?

What a s**tty little comment regarding 3 men who hunger striked to death for political status and not to be criminalised.

Unless im misreading your post?

[-NW2-]

Probably. Unpalatable as it may have been, perhaps they should have stuck with the Officials and attempted to operate as a left flank within them. It might even have prevented the Officials' rather weird trajectory on the national question. In any case, pursing an armed campaign with minority support wasn't a recipe for success.

It's true that the British state was up to its eyes in fostering divisions, creating splits and feuds (what else are all those security agencies for?). But this just shows how thoroughly the British defeated the INLA, much more defeated than the Provos it has to be said. A small guerrilla army - and descriptions the INLA as the army of the working class are laughably exaggerated - which is unable to hold any territory is liable to be throughly penetrated by the stronger state force.

Once civil rights had been achieved, the struggle should have focused on social and political strategies rather than military ones. Perhaps it always should have, but in the context of state violence in the late 1960s, a violent reaction is understandable.

All hindsight of course, but there's not much in looking at history is we aren't to learn from it.

I find Eirigi's nationalism to be very off putting. What's that silly sticker they have around Dublin: "Gan teanga, gan anam" (No language, no soul). Nationalist gibberish. Irish Republicans are remarkably unrepublican. They are nationalists who use republican rhetoric. Mostly they come across as Catholic Defenders, which given the social evolution of Ireland is going to be less and less attractive.


I dont think they could have stuck with the Officials. As I understand it, Costello was being forced out of the movement, probably because he was - as you put it- trying to prevent their weird trajectory on the national question.

I'd agree with you that the INLA and the PIRA were both defeated by the British state. Hence the need to forget about armed struggle for now and concentrate on politics. Which is the IRSP's position. That is learning from history. Learning from history isnt criticising every movement or party around the world that dont conform to very specific ideas laid down by people who are nowhere to be seen on the ground when these events are happening (not directing that at you, some of the other posts on this thread).

I'd disagree with you regarding Republicans as being unrepublican and essentially nationalist. The linguistic struggles in many countries from the 19th century onwards were led by socialists who -in Beresford Ellis's words- saw the destruction of the peoples language and culture as one of the most evil and most direct consequences of imperialism.

Connolly himself recognised the Irish language was a revolutionary force. I dont think it is a nationalist position to seek to promote the Irish language given as its near destruction was brought about by British Imperialist policy in Ireland (including the famine).

I accept your original point that persuing an armed campaign with minority support wasnt a recipe for success. I would say however that to the youth of Belfast, Derry, South Armagh and elsewhere, the levels of support for the PIRA or the INLA might not have constituted a minority. Even in the 26 counties in the 70's among a large proportion of the working class and rural population there was a tacit support of the cause of the PIRA. The IRSP also won council seats in Ennis and polled well during the elections when they stood Kevin Lynch as a candidate in Waterford. I accept that that does not constitute 'mass' support, just pointing out that the picture wasnt and isnt always black and white.

[Revolutionair]

I'd disagree with you regarding Republicans as being unrepublican and essentially nationalist. The linguistic struggles in many countries from the 19th century onwards were led by socialists who -in Beresford Ellis's words- saw the destruction of the peoples language and culture as one of the most evil and most direct consequences of imperialism.

Connolly himself recognised the Irish language was a revolutionary force. I dont think it is a nationalist position to seek to promote the Irish language given as its near destruction was brought about by British Imperialist policy in Ireland (including the famine).

How is supporting and promoting the Irish nation in the form of a republic not nationalist? In essense you are trying to create a political organisation based on the national identity. How can nationalism be a revolutionary force for socialism?

The fact that the British nation-state collided with the Irish nation seems more of an argument for the idea that Irish Republicanism is nationalist than the opposite. The idea that somehow nation-states which are not currently running at maximum imperialist capacity, are useful to socialism seems off.

[-NW2-]

We've gone slightly off topic, but never mind! Are you saying then that socialists should not sympathise with oppressed nationalities? Or just all oppressed nationalities except the Irish?

Irish Republican Socialism is about the working class of Ireland controlling the means of production, distribution and exchange in a 32 county democratic Socialist Republic. It is not nationalism.

In some time in the dim future, there may exist borderless communist communities but at the moment that is so long a way off as to be nearly irrelevant.

In what way should we support the Irish nation if not in the form of a Republic?

I dont think it is a nationalist postition alone to want to preserve and promote the Irish language.

[Nox]

Please tell me this thread a joke...

[-NW2-]

No. Its a discussion on the INLA/IRSP in the history section of the forum. Is that not ok with you?

No one is forcing you to read or contribute to it.

[Revolutionair]

We've gone slightly off topic, but never mind! Are you saying then that socialists should not sympathise with oppressed nationalities? Or just all oppressed nationalities except the Irish?

Indeed this is my position, I just really hate the Irish and their delicious Guinness!



Irish Republican..Irish language.

1 What is your definition of/opinion on nationalism? Why is the defense of the Irish cultural identity not nationalist and the defense of the 'White' cultural identity nationalist. (assuming that that is your position)

2 Why should leftists concentrate on expanding the contemporary Irish republic instead of bringing 'borderless communist communities' closer to the present?

3 What is your definition of socialism. A socialist Irish state means that the state and socialism are compatible according to you. What is the relation between the struggle for a socialist Irish-national state and the Marxist socialist (internationalist?) struggle for 'borderless communist communities'?

[-NW2-]

Revolutionair, just running out the door. I'll reply to you later on tonight or tomorrow.

[Revolutionair]

That's cool.

[IrishWorker]

Yesterday in Derry.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7674/19756555.png

Masked gunmen fire a dozen shots

Published on Wednesday 18 April 2012 11:29

Police in Londonderry have confirmed they are investigating an incident involving three masked gunmen in the city on Monday morning (April 16).

The gunmen, believed to be members of the INLA, fired up to a dozen shots as the funeral of former member, Seamus Coyle, was taking place having left his home in the Rosemount Gardens area before his burial at the City Cemetery.

A statement from the PSNI said: “Police have received reports of shots being fired in the Rosemount area and are investigating.”

The INLA announced they had decommissioned their weapons arsenal in February, 2010.

http://www.londonder...shots-1-3743668

[pastradamus]

Yesterday in Derry.


The INLA announced they had decommissioned their weapons arsenal in February, 2010.

http://www.londonder...shots-1-3743668


Cant say im shocked by that. The IRA ended up hanging onto a lot of their weapons for simular purposes.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I would say however that to the youth of Belfast, Derry, South Armagh and elsewhere, the levels of support for the PIRA or the INLA might not have constituted a minority.
Evidence


Even in the 26 counties in the 70's among a large proportion of the working class and rural population there was a tacit support of the cause of the PIRA.
Delusional


The IRSP also won council seats in Ennis
Actually it was in Shannon when the IRSP (Brigid Makowski and her daughter Stella Fean) got about 150 votes in a town where a third of the population (about 2,500 people) were refugees from the North. Makowski later stood for the IRSP in the general election in Clare and got 252 votes


and polled well during the elections when they stood Kevin Lynch as a candidate in Waterford.
Clutching at straws here - Lynch stood as an anti-H Blocks candidate (not IRSP) at the height of the hunger strikes six weeks before his death and got 7% of the vote without coming close to being elected.


I accept that that does not constitute 'mass' support, just pointing out that the picture wasnt and isnt always black and white.
Electorally the IRSP were never more than a damp squip on the electoral map in the South and the IRSP/INLA never had anything more than minimal support among a tiny handful of the Southern population.

I have had long experience of the IRSP including Makowski and Fean who were a major hinderence to the anti-water charges campaign in the early 1980's wanting to run the show and refusing to accept democratically agreed decisions by the campaign and having to deal with a couple of IRSP members within the trade union movement who actually gave sectarians an undeservedly bad name. I also witnessed several 'incidents' between the INLA and ex-members (we won't call them feuds). The IRSP did nothing politically in my area except be an absolute nuisence and Makowski only got elected in later years as a result of clinic work for local people - not because of her political views (which actually bounced around all over the shop)

[IrishWorker]

Evidence


Delusional


Actually it was in Shannon when the IRSP (Brigid Makowski and her daughter Stella Fean) got about 150 votes in a town where a third of the population (about 2,500 people) were refugees from the North. Makowski later stood for the IRSP in the general election in Clare and got 252 votes


Clutching at straws here - Lynch stood as an anti-H Blocks candidate (not IRSP) at the height of the hunger strikes six weeks before his death and got 7% of the vote without coming close to being elected.


Electorally the IRSP were never more than a damp squip on the electoral map in the South and the IRSP/INLA never had anything more than minimal support among a tiny handful of the Southern population.

I have had long experience of the IRSP including Makowski and Fean who were a major hinderence to the anti-water charges campaign in the early 1980's wanting to run the show and refusing to accept democratically agreed decisions by the campaign and having to deal with a couple of IRSP members within the trade union movement who actually gave sectarians an undeservedly bad name. I also witnessed several 'incidents' between the INLA and ex-members (we won't call them feuds). The IRSP did nothing politically in my area except be an absolute nuisence and Makowski only got elected in later years as a result of clinic work for local people - not because of her political views (which actually bounced around all over the shop)

Here Jolly Im sorry you had a bad personal experiences with the IRSM and fair enough we are not perfect but you need to get that serious chip of your shoulder a chara.

They were extraordinary times when the IRSP/INLA where fighting not just the British army the Free state army, UDA, UFF,UVF, RHC, attacks from our former comrades in the OIRA, attacks from the PIRA,the RUC, the UDR but the entire ruling class establishment.

For such a small group they punched well above their weight, thats something you should at least give them credit for.

Just out of curiosity a chara, where were the Trotskyites when the shit was hitting the fan? Hidng behind some individual bull shit terrorism crap watching Coronation Street or Eastenders when the class war and the war for National Liberation was being physically fought in front of their own eyes.

[-NW2-]

Evidence


Delusional


Actually it was in Shannon when the IRSP (Brigid Makowski and her daughter Stella Fean) got about 150 votes in a town where a third of the population (about 2,500 people) were refugees from the North. Makowski later stood for the IRSP in the general election in Clare and got 252 votes


Clutching at straws here - Lynch stood as an anti-H Blocks candidate (not IRSP) at the height of the hunger strikes six weeks before his death and got 7% of the vote without coming close to being elected.


Electorally the IRSP were never more than a damp squip on the electoral map in the South and the IRSP/INLA never had anything more than minimal support among a tiny handful of the Southern population.

I have had long experience of the IRSP including Makowski and Fean who were a major hinderence to the anti-water charges campaign in the early 1980's wanting to run the show and refusing to accept democratically agreed decisions by the campaign and having to deal with a couple of IRSP members within the trade union movement who actually gave sectarians an undeservedly bad name. I also witnessed several 'incidents' between the INLA and ex-members (we won't call them feuds). The IRSP did nothing politically in my area except be an absolute nuisence and Makowski only got elected in later years as a result of clinic work for local people - not because of her political views (which actually bounced around all over the shop)

You're right of course, It was Shannon. I dont know where I got Ennis from.

You ask for evidence when I merely stated my opinion. I didnt use any statistics or claim to know for certain or quote anyone else. Having said that, are you telling me that a young lad from Ballymurphy or Crossmaglen in the 80's would have felt he was in a minority if he became involved in the Republican movement?

You state its delusional to say that in the 70's there was a tacit support for Republicanism amongst working class Irish people. That may be your experience but its certainly not mine. Irish working class and rural culture is steeped in stories of the Fenians, 1798, The Easter Rising etc. Even FF until very recently (they still might do, I havent been home in a while) used to call themselves 'The Republican Party.' I know they werent, but the point is they were trying to tap into to the latent support for Republicanism. Sinn Fein is doing this very succesfully now. I believe they are the third largest party in the 26 counties. I know that the majority of people did not support the armed campaign in the north, I did not try and claim that.

I used the example of Kevin Lynch in Waterford not to show that the IRSP were succesfull at elections in the 26 counties, but merely to show that some posters reffering to them as simply a sectarian gang of criminals is wrong. I did say in my post that I realised the examples of Shannon and Waterford did not constitute electoral success.

As Irish Worker has said, you have clearly had bad experiences with the IRSP so that has informed your judgement, which is fair enough. But the IRSP surely cant be the first and definitely wont be the last socialist party to be accused of trying to dominate or run campaigns that are meant to be multi party.

[-NW2-]

Indeed this is my position, I just really hate the Irish and their delicious Guinness!




1 What is your definition of/opinion on nationalism? Why is the defense of the Irish cultural identity not nationalist and the defense of the 'White' cultural identity nationalist. (assuming that that is your position)

2 Why should leftists concentrate on expanding the contemporary Irish republic instead of bringing 'borderless communist communities' closer to the present?

3 What is your definition of socialism. A socialist Irish state means that the state and socialism are compatible according to you. What is the relation between the struggle for a socialist Irish-national state and the Marxist socialist (internationalist?) struggle for 'borderless communist communities'?

1. I dont really think there is such thing as a 'White' cutural identity is there? The cutures and identities of say Ireland are completely different to say Finland.

The promotion of indegienous cultures and languages can be useful in combating imperialism, in my opinion. Cultural, economic or military. Connolly and Lenin were both believers in the preservation and promotion of such languages and cultures, so I dont think I am in bad company there. I dont have the book to hand but do remember reading Lenin wanted minority languages and cultures safegaurded and accused those who wanted to abolish all national differences of being ultra-revolutionary.

2) Surely the first step on the road to socialism is taking power in individual states. There isnt going to be a spontaneous worldwide revolution. Socialists will have to be in power in several economically advanced nations before anything like that will happen. Just my opinion.

3) My definition of socialism is the working class being in democratic control of the means of production, distribution and exchange. This would be acheived by the mass revolutionary actions of the working class in the political, economic and social spheres. Whether I think it is compatible with the state, I probably covered that in point 2. Initially, yes.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Here Jolly Im sorry you had a bad personal experiences with the IRSM and fair enough we are not perfect but you need to get that serious chip of your shoulder a chara.
I don't have any chip on my shoulder - my experience of IRSP/INLA activists is one where they demonstrated rampant sectarianism against anyone on the left that didn't bow to their position. Example - in 1987 Limerick Trades Council met to discuss motions that it would submit to ICTU Annual Congress. Every year for the previous number of years the IRSP member who was a delegate to the Trades Council proposed a motion calling for the release of the Birmingham Six. In 1987 the government announced the closure of Barringtons Hospital in Limerick - 30,000-40,000 people demonstrated on the streets of Limerick in opposition - local union members wanted to engage in strike action against the closure - trade union members were demanding that ICTU act in opposition to health cutbacks. At the Trades Council I proposed that the Trades Council submit a motion to ICTU for a 24-hour general strike in opposition to health cuts. The IRSP delegate propsed the usual motion on the Birmingham Six. The IRSP member demanded that I withdraw my motion - I explained that several other motions would be on the agenda on the topic of the Birmingham Six but my motion could well be the only one calling for a 24 hour general strike against health cuts. The vote took place - all the right-wing trade union officials backed the Birmingham Six motion - all the rank-and-file delegates backed my motion which was defeated by one vote - the vote of the IRSP member. This was typical of the antics of every IRSP member that I was ever involved in a campaign with.


They were extraordinary times when the IRSP/INLA where fighting not just the British army the Free state army, UDA, UFF,UVF, RHC, attacks from our former comrades in the OIRA, attacks from the PIRA,the RUC, the UDR but the entire ruling class establishment.
Yes indeed - the INLA against the world.


For such a small group they punched well above their weight, thats something you should at least give them credit for.
For such a small group they did serious damage to the cause of the working class - killing innocent Catholics in booby-traps, killing innocent Protestants in cases of mistaken identity and engaging regularly in tit-for-tat killings with other republican paramilitaries.


Just out of curiosity a chara, where were the Trotskyites when the shit was hitting the fan? Hidng behind some individual bull shit terrorism crap watching Coronation Street or Eastenders when the class war and the war for National Liberation was being physically fought in front of their own eyes.
In 1969 and 1970 the Trotskyists were on the Bogside assisting in the defence of the community, working and succeeding in other communities in building cross-community defence committees to protect communities from sectarian violence only to have republican and loyalist paramilitaries come in and use intimidation to take them over and use them for sectarian purposes. The Trotskyists then assisted trade union activists in defending workplaces and workers from sectarian intimidation - on more than one occasion the Militant organised strike action against threats by the INLA against Protestant workers working in workplaces in Catholic areas and against loyalist paramilitary threats to Catholics woking in Protestant areas - and worked within the trade union movement to build working class unity across the sectarian divide.

Those who support and have supported republican paramilitarism constantly attack the Socialist Party / CWI for refusing to support the 'armed struggle'. The Socialist Party didn't and doesn't support it because it was doomed to failure, was counter-productive and played straight into the hands of British Imperialism and the sectarians. But those who engaged in the 'armed struggle' cry "at least we resisted Imperialism" - sure you can resist using the bullet and the bomb - the problem is that the objective is not to resist imperialism, but to defeat it - and there was no way that individual terror was ever going to defeat imperialism. So you can crow about physically fighting the Brits all you want - but the reality is that individual terror was a failure and the Brits are just as entrenched in the North as they were 40 years ago. On the ground little has changed other than the name tag of those sitting in Stormont.



You ask for evidence when I merely stated my opinion. I didnt use any statistics or claim to know for certain or quote anyone else. Having said that, are you telling me that a young lad from Ballymurphy or Crossmaglen in the 80's would have felt he was in a minority if he became involved in the Republican movement?
I am sure that every young lad who supported the provos or the INLA felt that they were the majority - the reality is that they weren't.


You state its delusional to say that in the 70's there was a tacit support for Republicanism amongst working class Irish people. That may be your experience but its certainly not mine. Irish working class and rural culture is steeped in stories of the Fenians, 1798, The Easter Rising etc. Even FF until very recently (they still might do, I havent been home in a while) used to call themselves 'The Republican Party.' I know they werent, but the point is they were trying to tap into to the latent support for Republicanism. Sinn Fein is doing this very succesfully now. I believe they are the third largest party in the 26 counties. I know that the majority of people did not support the armed campaign in the north, I did not try and claim that.
There was never anything more than minimal support among the working class in the South for paramilitarism - and SF only started to get votes AFTER they put their guns through the grinder.


I used the example of Kevin Lynch in Waterford not to show that the IRSP were succesfull at elections in the 26 counties, but merely to show that some posters reffering to them as simply a sectarian gang of criminals is wrong. I did say in my post that I realised the examples of Shannon and Waterford did not constitute electoral success.
And I was demonstrating the point that even in a town where 2,500 people were refugees from the North the IRSP could muster little more than 150 votes.


But the IRSP surely cant be the first and definitely wont be the last socialist party to be accused of trying to dominate or run campaigns that are meant to be multi party.
Nothing to do with attempting to 'run' campaigns - but actually scuppering active working class campaigns that wouldn't paly ball. Makowski and her daughter destroyed an active and vibrant campaign against the water charges in Shannon that had the support of hundreds of people.

[Niall]

Yes, I do.


I would make a distinction between reactionary nationalism and anti-imperialist nationalism.
sdlp would consider themselves nationalist, SF/RSF/IRSP would say theyre republican. Personally, Id consider myself nationalist AND republican

[Niall]

btw, anyone read INLA : Deadly Divisions?

[-NW2-]

btw, anyone read INLA : Deadly Divisions?

I've read it. Its mainly tabloid s***e and quite badly written but probably worth reading in you interested in the RSM. Have you read it yourself cara?

[MotherCossack]

---here goes----[nervously]
Hi ... can i join in? yep, its me... [she with awful grammer and such inconsistant use of punctuation as to render it practically redundent.]

first let me disagree with the various sneers and jeers rubbishing this thread....
it is a well good, interesting, genuine, heartfelt, informed, intelligent, well-balanced and more or less free of the usual meaningless show-boating [i'm guilty too, probably]. it has to be one of the better ones, in my view.

now i am by no means very knowledgable about the inla and the irish struggle/class struggle/struggle for self-determination.
but i do have some savvy and i trust my own judgement....
what is wrong with having pride in your culture, your heritage, your sense of identity, your language... your fucking country?

whoever it was claims that we have to ditch every thing national... all the quirks, idiosyncrasies, the language, the traditions, humour, folklore, cuisine, history, culture, is a sad fucker and not being realistic.
i did not realize that we were all working towards a european union of the whole world...

i know eventually.... in a very long time.... when socialism is well and truly up and running... it would be the desirable next step........ but dont get too excited... it wont look much like brussels matey [i hope] and there's certainly no point in waiting up for it... cos there is a heap of thesis's, anti-thesis's and synthesis's to work through first!

and nationality exists. period. it is hugely important to so many of us... defines who we are ... what we are...where we belong... the people we know and recognise... it is an anchor and a glue. you cant just dismiss all that ... definitely not until there is an alternative.. and vitally until socialism/communism is firmly established. or you might find things follow an altogether undesired path.... Us all being sheep... it may well happen!
there are a lot of potential positives, anyway.... pitfalls too... loads of them... but its not all bad.
listen... i am more or less English... apart from 1/4 irish-italian... and so i know about shit nationalism, jingoism, imperialism, shameful empire fronted piracy..... we did it all i am properly ashamed to say...
england .. a country that only its mother could love....and i still have trouble ... thank god for the foreign quarter.

but i so get it... people will do a lot for their country ... certainly die of hunger.
especially if some fuckers stole it from you and for 100's of years raped and pillaged metaphorically, mostly, speaking.
and when you dare to protest... fuck you some more with a bunch of vile lowlifes, murderers, mercenary, no that is far too complementary... prostituted killers... an army of scumbags set free from the deepest dungeons in great britain, and over to ireland to dampen their fire.
i dont blame them.... for being difficult.... i dont know if i would trust, and give away my guns to the likes of the british government.
where in any history that is recorded, is there an example of Britain or the US being anything like as forgiving/ trusting/ magnanimus...

now i think i am off topicish.... sorry.. but i had to respond ...
denying the Irish what is absolutely theirs is the same as getting a gun and stealing everthing from a modest hard-working family at gunpoint, killing half their children, destroying their livelehood, trashing it all , then establishing a heartless system of production for their own gain, enslaving all the family, with no rights, little pay and no hope for change. taking all the produce quelling, aggressively any dissent and claiming the high moral ground.

[IrishWorker]

Finally a bit of sense, great post from the heart MotherCossack and bang on the money.

Although your post might not sit well with those who want to turn this into a INLA bashing thread.

[Dr Doom]

I dont think it is a nationalist postition alone to want to preserve and promote the Irish language.

of course it is! the issue of the irish language where i live is bound up with nationalism and to pretend otherwise is moronic. now if someone wants to learn it then whatever, i don't give a shit, but making it into something political is pretty stupid.

[Jolly Red Giant]

what is wrong with having pride in your culture, your heritage, your sense of identity, your language...
Absolutely nothing - in fact a socialist society would not be worth fighting for if it didn't actively promote diversity and the preservation and extension of culture, heritage, language etc.


your fucking country?

You need to be a little careful on this one - waving the flag when the boys in green are having the cr*p beaten out of them by Spain this summer is one thing - dropping to the level of jingoistic nationalism is another thing altogether.

[IrishWorker]

Todays news.


http://img.u.tv/galleries/777/620x349/EastwoodColum_Funeral_20042012.JPG

http://www.derryjournal.com/webimage/1.3758328.1334923378!image/284465554.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/284465554.jpg

Mr Eastwood, who is former Mayor of Derry, said he was acting in a personal capacity when he carried the coffin of Republican Séamus Coyle at his funeral in the City Cemetery on Tuesday.
Mr Coyle, who died last weekend, had been a member of both the Official IRA and the INLA.
The coffin was flanked by an IRSP colour party dressed in paramilitary uniform.
Mr Eastwood, who was elected to Stormont last year, carried the coffin shortly before a masked member of the Real IRA fired up to a dozen shots.
The MLA said the shots were fired before he arrived.
"I went to a friend's funeral to mark his death - to be with his family and friends.
"I think that's something that people in this city and country understand very well."
Mr Eastwood said he and Mr Coyle were "very close," but had differing political points of view which they used to discuss.
He said that while his friend had a past, he was engaged in the peace process.
"I carried his coffin like I would for any other friend.
"How other people behave is up to them, I learnt at a very early age not to allow other people to dictate how I behave.
"I would do it again," he said, before adding that he didn't attend the funeral to make a political point.
Mr Eastwood said he didn't want to see any guns on the streets of Derry.
The SDLP have so far declined to comment.
Ian Paisley Jnr, North Antrim MP, described the politician's actions as "crassly stupid."
He said he would have a lot of questions to answer.
"I think a lot of people will be asking themselves and asking this particular MLA 'What on earth did you think you were doing at such a display and participating...associating yourself with that display?'"
Next week, Mr Eastwood will become a member of the Standards and Privileges Committee after serving as a member on the Justice Committee,
The move is part of a reshuffle of the party's assembly team, which was announced on Thursday.
© UTV News
http://www.u.tv/News/Eastwood-defends-funeral-decision/97dd98df-1707-474d-b3b7-bf6eea5d667e

[MotherCossack]

Absolutely nothing - in fact a socialist society would not be worth fighting for if it didn't actively promote diversity and the preservation and extension of culture, heritage, language etc.


You need to be a little careful on this one - waving the flag when the boys in green are having the cr*p beaten out of them by Spain this summer is one thing - dropping to the level of jingoistic nationalism is another thing altogether.

i concede that my language was a tad inflammatory... but feelings run high on this matter around our way..... my children have a paddy dad [he does not mind me refering to him thus....]who has been bought up in the company of several chiefs of staff of the provisionals ... he hung out with them all.... in fact right now he is throwing names at me ten to the dozen.
the names being unspellable like... seamus Twomey.... dathai O'Connel, ruairi O'bradaigh, dominic Mc Glinchy.
so i suppose i am coming at it from an involved angle..... he is unremittingly republican as is he a unrelenting marxist-leninist..... lot of anger there i can tell you.
but i take your point.

[IrishWorker]

Todays News

http://www.irsp.ie/news/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/irspnews01.jpg


http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/385657_155266547935137_100003553786563_192474_1230 173379_n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/541277_155266661268459_100003553786563_192475_4362 5832_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/526676_155266767935115_100003553786563_192476_7324 99669_n.jpg

The IRSP in Strabane held a Republican Socialist information stall to distribute free IRSP literature and the party’s magazine. The main focus of today’s event in Strabane was to highlight the injustice of the continued incarceration of Republican political prisoner, Marian Price.

Strabane IRSP handed out hundreds of leaflets detailing the draconian situation comrade Price finds herself in and also engaged in face to face discussion with the public on the importance of every single persons’ contribution to the cause of her release

http://www.irsp.ie/news/?p=821

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Electorally the IRSP were never more than a damp squip on the electoral map
Just about every explicitly revolutionary party should pack it in using that logic. :rolleyes:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

btw, anyone read INLA : Deadly Divisions?
Yeah. Written by a couple of ex-Stickies. Blurs the line between fact and fiction. I haven't read the recently updated edition, though.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Probably. Unpalatable as it may have been, perhaps they should have stuck with the Officials and attempted to operate as a left flank within them.
Costello only stayed with the Officials as long as he did because he hated splits. Anyway, the Officials dismissed him from both their armed and political wings because he was critical of their direction, and his supporters were blocked from attending OSF's party conference to support him. After that, his only options were to join the Provisionals or create a new movement.

And when the IRSM should have been focused on building itself up, it instead had to defend itself from attacks by the OIRA, which began within days of the IRSM's founding.

In fact, it seemed every time the IRSM was going to turn the corner, its leadership was taken out. Costello, Bunting, Power, Gallagher, etc.


Once civil rights had been achieved, the struggle should have focused on social and political strategies rather than military ones.
I've always felt that the armed struggle went on for too long, and opportunities to build a mass struggle were missed because of the focus on it. Ta Power touched on that in his document about the past and future of the IRSM. He wrote of armed struggle, "it eventually becomes an end in itself due simply to the fact that they don't know of any other strategy."

[Babeufist]

Full support for the INLA! Down with British imperialism! Solidarity, comrades!

[MotherCossack]

Full support for the INLA! Down with British imperialism! Solidarity, comrades!

here hear
its clear
that, united, we're
what they most fear.

unite
all
our might
for our
one fight
and 'The Right'
will fear
our light.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Full support for the INLA! Down with British imperialism! Solidarity, comrades!
Though at this point that would mean full support for the IRSP, as the INLA decommissioned its weaponry.

[Niall]

I've read it. Its mainly tabloid s***e and quite badly written but probably worth reading in you interested in the RSM. Have you read it yourself cara?

I have and found it interesting. Are there any other books on them?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I have and found it interesting. Are there any other books on them?
Unfortunately not. It seems to me there is a need for someone to write an accurate history of the IRSM.

[IrishWorker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=glJZ3TDr8K4

[Tim Finnegan]

Oh, great, now my YouTube history has stupid in it.

[IrishWorker]

Oh, great, now my YouTube history has stupid in it.

Oh dear, now MI5 will have you on the radar, maybe you should move house.:rolleyes: