I've been thinking

[Registered User]

I'm a Muslim,but I'm not really that religious.So I decided to read the Koran to look into what it has to offer.But the more and more I looked,the more and more I resented it.I've been reading some atheist material,but I'm not sure.Should I drop religion,or should I not?Thank you for anything

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Dropping religion is always the best answer, in every case. When you do drop religion, you will see that a materialist outlook will liberate you from the previous fears you had about the unknown. Also, if you are a Marxist, materialism is at the very center of our ideology.

[Red Rabbit]

Do what feels right to you. If you wish, you may also want to look into various other religions if you don't believe Islam fits your views.

In the end, if you cannot find any religion that makes sense to you, then you may want to look at Atheism, Agnosticism, etc.

Just remember, when you are reading on the various religions, ignore what everyone else says about them or how others interpret it. Form your own ideas about it, don't follow others.

And good luck. :)

[Bostana]

You should do what you think is right.

If you find the Koran's material to be resentable and you feel like that religion isn't the best thing for then go ahead drop no one will judge you.

[hatzel]

RevLeft is rarely the best place to seek serious life advice, I ain't gonna lie...

And yeah that was some serious life advice, and what?

[Railyon]

Should I drop religion,or should I not?

Why should you do either?

That is, why is this a purely binary question? There's so much in between both poles.

[The Young Pioneer]

I was raised in an atheist household, but they didn't mind me exploring religious routes. I did feel like there is some higher power to explain it all (just my opinion, comrades), and I went through various religions before I found the one where I felt I "fit." I converted at age 17.

It's a fun sort of self-exploration to do, I encourage you to check out any belief system that even mildly interests you. Even those that you discover aren't your cup of tea allow you to take away some cultural knowledge and better appreciation for the people involved. I can understand the atheist sentiment completely, especially among the left. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be able to understand and empathise with the faithful among us. :thumbup1:

Now before I wax lyrical any further, good luck on your discovery. :)

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Decide for yourself and don't listen to anyone else about this. I am an atheist, and can give you reasons why I believe religion is so screwy, but overall it's up to you to decide if you have faith in a god or not.

[Threetune]

Communist antipathy (dislike) towards religion, particularly the dominant organized religions, continues because ruling classes have always used religion as a means of suppressing the interests of the oppressed while at the same time pretending that religion was on the side of the poor.


If organized religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and other ‘atheistic religions’ Buddhism or Confucianism had the ‘keys’ ‘maps’ or ‘paths’ to human personal and social development, then all I can say is that they have all been allowed long enough to demonstrate nothing but a constant unending confusion. A ‘Tower of Babble’.


‘Religious Poetry’ on the other hand, poetry about life, love, death, nature, urban conflict, the universe, science etc, is embodied in most religious texts, and it is the poetic language and romantic notions that are attractive and often illuminating.


Religion is poetry. Discuss.

[The Jay]

Do what you think sounds true, even use logic, nudge nudge. Haha in all seriousness, reading won't hurt you. Read all the arguments.

[hatzel]

Read all the arguments.

On the contrary, don't read any flipping arguments. This isn't the kind of thing that has anything whatsoever to do with people partaking in some kind of logical debate to 'make their case,' so to speak...

[∞]

Like all the religions, Islam is homophobic, sexist, and reactionary by nature.

[#FF0000]

there's no god dummy cut that out

[∞]

there's no god dummy cut that out

Ya dingus!

[Positivist]

If you find yourself rejecting divinity but are unwilling to abandon all morality or meaning then you may want to look into existentialism and secular humanism. Both offer materialist world outlooks but also make room for subjective and inter-subjective assignments of meaning. Good luck. The transition to atheism is a difficult one, and maybe you aren't even making it. Though in the case that you are I wish you the best and advise you to stay strong!

[Threetune]

On the contrary, don't read any flipping arguments. This isn't the kind of thing that has anything whatsoever to do with people partaking in some kind of logical debate to 'make their case,' so to speak...

OK, we won’t take notice of your argument about this, even if you attempt to have one. But we will take notice of you, because you exist with an argument, even though you attempt to deny it.

[Deicide]

Religious arguments rarely (if ever) go beyond.. ''Because Sky-daddy and Prophet XYZ said so''.

Although William Lane Craig, with his ''Kalām cosmological argument'', is quite entertaining to watch.. His sophistry knows no bounds, lol.

[Red Rabbit]

Like all the religions, Islam is homophobic, sexist, and reactionary by nature.


there's no god dummy cut that out

You guys don't need to be such assholes about it, sheesh.

[Threetune]

Like all the religions, Islam is homophobic, sexist, and reactionary by nature.

Tell us what culture isn’t.

Edir: And why, in your opinion.

[#FF0000]

i don't mean to be an asshole about it

i was sorta kidding

but yeah straight up there is no god.

but if you want to be religious and believe in one then w/e it's fine just don't be a dummy

[hatzel]

OK, we won’t take notice of your argument about this, even if you attempt to have one. But we will take notice of you, because you exist with an argument, even though you attempt to deny it.

A quick glance at my posting history will confirm that I have never actually had an argument about anything ever. I merely...present such an illusion...

[Zealot]

Yes, Comrade, you must immediately drop your religion and give up the opium. God has failed to provide the liberation of mankind and the Communists realize that man can only liberate themselves. Or, as Marx once put it:

"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of men, is a demand for their real happiness. The call to abandon their illusions about their condition is a call to abandon a condition which requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, the embryonic criticism of this vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

Now you must learn dialectical-materialism to arm yourself with a revolutionary analysis and learn the scientific socialism of Marxism-Leninism. I would recommend these as a start:

The Foundations of Leninism - J Stalin (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/foundations-leninism/index.htm)
Dialectical and Historical Materialism - J Stalin (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1938/09.htm)
The State and Revolution - V Lenin (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)
The Communist Manifesto - Marx/Engels (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/)

[The Jay]

On the contrary, don't read any flipping arguments. This isn't the kind of thing that has anything whatsoever to do with people partaking in some kind of logical debate to 'make their case,' so to speak...

It think that this is a subject of logical debate as one side is making a claim about the Universe.

[Zealot]

RevLeft is rarely the best place to seek serious life advice, I ain't gonna lie...

And yeah that was some serious life advice, and what?

We don't really see the recommendation of dropping religion as "serious life advice". It's the natural step of any kid who abandons his invisible friend.

And to the OP, if you have any questions just PM me. Islam has been utilized in some half-hearted attempts at leading revolutions but it always turns bad. Why? Because Islam is not a revolutionary theory. The Qur'an merely talks about paradise, stories about the Jewish tribal cult, the ego of god and how the unbelievers are going to hell. There is no revolutionary analysis in there, only promises of paradise to "those who are patient."

[hatzel]

It think that this is a subject of logical debate as one side is making a claim about the Universe.

If you think that people are swayed between theism and atheism by chumps writing out a load of boring ass shit full of "logically speaking..." or "reason would suggest..." in favour of either position then you're a numpty of the highest order.


We don't really see the recommendation of dropping religion as "serious life advice". It's the natural step of any kid who abandons his invisible friend.

Guy made a post asking about his own beliefs. Next guy who doesn't know him from Adam posted a load of ideological whatever seemingly praising Marxism as some kind of life-affirming journey to Hurrayville. Thread's proper shit, bro. Deal with it.

[The Jay]

If you think that people are swayed between theism and atheism by chumps writing out a load of boring ass shit full of "logically speaking..." or "reason would suggest..." in favour of either position then you're a numpty of the highest order.

That's how I de-converted so it does work and I know plenty that de-converted the same way.

[roy]

You either believe or you don't

[Railyon]

[...]

That post in a nutshell:

>>dogma
>>dogma
>>more dogma
>>texts by Stalin

Yes yes, let us convert all the (un)believers with loads of imperatives! "Must" all over the place!

Am I the only one seeing the irony here?

[Manic Impressive]

You guys don't need to be such assholes about it, sheesh.
Do you think that your beliefs should be respected? If so why?

[Pretty Flaco]

You don't have to drop belief in god or a higher power just because you don't believe in the religious texts. this is coming from an atheist.

[Kyu Six]

I still haven't discarded my Qur'an, although I no longer believe it. It's good poetry, and an interesting read sometimes. But the Qur'an lays out a plan for mankind that was appropriate for 7th century Arabia. Islam was a civilizing force for a good chunk of that part of the world, but is it divine, and more importantly, is it relevant to us today? There are a lot of hard leaps of faith Islam requires. Are jinn real? Is Prophet `Isa really coming back? Are Islam's claims of being man's primordial religion true? Is the Qur'an correct where it contradicts the Bible? Is the Islamic conception of Allah even the same as the YHVH of the Bible? It's quite frankly hard to answer these questions truthfully in favor of Islam. But also, are the hudud punishments appropriate, especially corporal punishment or death for things like adultery and fornication?

Islam will tell you to pay zakat and give sadaqah to help the poor, but when it comes to the question of why people are rich or poor in the first place, it becomes "it is Allah's will" and "Allah makes rich or poor whom he pleases". The more I pondered the human condition through the lens of 20th/21st century living, the more relevant I found Marx, and the less relevant I found Islam. Eventually, I had no need for belief in Allah anymore because those voids were now filled with science, whether natural physical science or social science such as anthropology and Marxism. The Qur'an is no longer relevant as a guide or a rulebook for me.

It's hard, but remember, Islam cannot change. Innovation in religion is a great sin and there shall be no prophets following after Muhammad. What was good for civilizing the nomadic tribes of the Hijaz in the year 600-something is not going to be appropriate for people who have direct knowledge of the heavens and the earth in detail unknown 1400 years ago. Think about what is greater sadaqah, to give to the poor, or to change the world so there are no longer any poor people! In Islam, the greatest act of charity is to free a slave. How much more charitable is it to free ourselves of superstition and adherence to 1400-year old ideas and use our knowledge and understanding of science to liberate the rest of the world?

Don't work for jannah or to avoid hell. There is no such thing. Work for a better life in this life in this world.

[Red Rabbit]

Do you think that your beliefs should be respected? If so why?

Yes, because not respecting the beliefs of a fellow comrade is kind of an assholish thing to do. If their beliefs aren't harming anyone, that is.

Why do so many atheists feel the need to insult other people's religious beliefs all the time?

[Manic Impressive]

Yes, because not respecting the beliefs of a fellow comrade is kind of an assholish thing to do. If their beliefs aren't harming anyone, that is.
So if a comrade here said they believed in the David Icke lizard people conspiracy theories, should we respect them?

What about if someone here was a scientologist should we respect them?

What about if I claimed that I was the offspring of a drunken office party fling between the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny both of which are real and that I sincerely hold this belief and you must respect that and under no circumstances should you mock my belief, would you respect me?


Why do so many atheists feel the need to insult other people's religious beliefs all the time?
Because we think they're ridiculous, harmful and offensive.

[Althusser]

You guys don't need to be such assholes about it, sheesh.

They're just being frank.

[Zealot]

Yes, because not respecting the beliefs of a fellow comrade is kind of an assholish thing to do. If their beliefs aren't harming anyone, that is.

Why do so many atheists feel the need to insult other people's religious beliefs all the time?

Saying there's no god or that Islam is homophobic by nature (which it is, not saying that all muslims are homophobic) is not offensive. Only religious people feel offended. Every time a religious person gets into a debate about these things it usually winds up with them saying we should "just respect" their beliefs instead of offending them. Which isn't an argument at all. And they should be offended to know that their religion teaches such filth.

[∞]

Tell us what culture isn’t.

Edir: And why, in your opinion.


I said like all religions. Culture too I guess.
Having spent long periods of time in muslims countries I found that culturally they repress sexuality and are very xenophobic as with many third-world countries under reactionary leaders, but that has less to do with religion.

I come from a muslims family and have read numerous sexist verses in the Quran about women. Google it because I can't transcribe them very well from Arabic.

[∞]

Anyway you're really missing out on bacon and booze. Its like the sacred fruit of life.

[Railyon]

Saying there's no god [...] is not offensive. Only religious people feel offended.

Not touching Islam with a twenty foot pole but I am equally offended by statements that "there is no god".

Why? Because it is equally dogmatic. To me the only acceptable answer for non-theists is "I don't fucking know" - there is no way in hell one can either prove nor disprove the existence of "God", however one may define that, so claiming there is none is quite bollocks.

After all, "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". One may say it is a reasonable assumption, from a positivist point of view, that a "God" is unlikely to exist, but to outright claim "no such thing"... again, a subtle irony to it that escapes most atheists (in the sense of anti-theists)

[hatzel]

That's how I de-converted so it does work and I know plenty that de-converted the same way.

Nope. The effectiveness of the argument does not cause the loss of belief; the loss of belief causes the effectiveness of the argument.

[Red Rabbit]

So if a comrade here said they believed in the David Icke lizard people conspiracy theories, should we respect them?

What about if someone here was a scientologist should we respect them?

What about if I claimed that I was the offspring of a drunken office party fling between the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny both of which are real and that I sincerely hold this belief and you must respect that and under no circumstances should you mock my belief, would you respect me?

I'm not saying to not convince them otherwise, just don't be an asshole about it, that's all. If you want to convince someone to become an atheist, that's fine, I just don't see why some people have to be rude about it.



Because we think they're ridiculous, harmful and offensive.

Your face is offensive!


They're just being frank.

Can I be Bob?

[The Jay]

Nope. The effectiveness of the argument does not cause the loss of belief; the loss of belief causes the effectiveness of the argument.

You're turning this into a 'yeah-huh, na-uh' thing. It worked for me and that's the truth. It's impossible for you to dispute that so let's just agree to disagree.

[Althusser]

I'm not saying to not convince them otherwise, just don't be an asshole about it, that's all. If you want to convince someone to become an atheist, that's fine, I just don't see why some people have to be rude about it.


Because not being rude and not being completely honest can possibly make the idiot's position have some weight. You must just flat out say, "That is completely fucking retarded", and explain why. By having a discussion on something as stupid as scientology or the the space man that judges us, the opponent's position automatically has an ounce of credibility. Why do you think fascists aren't permitted in the OI forum?

[Ostrinski]

Asking revleft if you should drop religion is like asking a teacher if you should do your homework. In each case you'll get a reaction along the lines of

[∞]

Can we call an apple an apple and say Muhammed was a pedophile reactionary?

[Red Rabbit]

Can we call an apple an apple and say Muhammed was a pedophile reactionary?

Only if we can say the same about Stalin.

[Rafiq]

Learn Materialism, Become a Marxist, and stay the fuck away from Noam Chomsky. These are the three tenets to becoming a successful Socialist.

[∞]

Only if we can say the same about Stalin.

He was a pedo?

[Avocado]

I'm a Muslim,but I'm not really that religious.So I decided to read the Koran to look into what it has to offer.But the more and more I looked,the more and more I resented it.I've been reading some atheist material,but I'm not sure.Should I drop religion,or should I not?Thank you for anything

Start at the start. What can I know about myself?: all of your answers should be flavoured by materialism.

Once you have worked out the physical and material, then ask yourself... Are there fairies at the bottom of the garden?

If you say no, then you cannot plausibly believe in any other supernatural nonsense.

If you say yes, then ask yourself why you think that might be the case? Because someone taught you it? Because someone wrote a book about it? Because someone passed on a story/myth/legend about it?

If you still doubt it, then ask yourself...Are there invisible microwave ovens rotating at the bottom of the garden?

If you think yes... go see a medical practitioner :)

If you think no... What is the difference between your earlier answers?

[Red Rabbit]

He was a pedo?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454291/Stalin-lover-aged-13.html