Planned Parenthood Bombed in Wisconsin

[Rusty Shackleford]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/02/planned-parenthood-bomb-wisconsin_n_1396665.html


small bomb exploded outside a Planned Parenthood clinic in Grand Chute, Wis., on Sunday night, and police are investigating to learn who planted the device. According to WGBA-TV, police fire crews found the homemade explosive outside a window sill (http://www.nbc26.com/news/local/145745235.html) that they believe had set off a small fire, which burned out before fire crews arrived (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20120402/APC0101/120402014/Police-Explosive-device-goes-off-Planned-Parenthood-clinic). The building sustained a small amount of damage.
The incident happened around 7:30 p.m. on Sunday.
Calls to the police department were not answered.
Planned Parenthood has 27 health centers in Wisconsin, and three of them, including the clinic that was bombed, offer abortion services. The fire from the bomb caused minimal damage to one of the exam rooms in the clinic, which is scheduled to reopen on Tuesday, said Teri Huyck, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin.
"Our primary concern today -- as always -- is our patients, staff and volunteers," Huyck said in a statement on Monday. "Women deserve safe and compassionate care, and we are proud to provide it. Rest assured, our doors will remain open for the thousands of women who rely on Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin each year for high quality health care.
"We extend our heartfelt gratitude to the law enforcement agencies working with us to ensure Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin continues to be a safe and trusted health care provider," she said.
According to the most recent statistics from the National Abortion Federation, there were 114 violent attacks against abortion providers in 2011, including three physical assaults, one bombing, one incident of arson, 27 counts of vandalism and eight burglaries.


maybe i was slightly wrong about the whole militia situation. maybe in the context i was posting on it caused me to respond in an abnormal way, but if christian identity (not plain ol christians, but extreme christian fundamentalists and generally white supremacists) are back in action then fuck me.

[Krano]

What are you talking about? Religion is peaceful :rolleyes:

[Rusty Shackleford]

its not religion itself that caused this. and actually its unsure who did it, but conservative christian identity people tend to do this. and christian identity ideology is very different from regular christianity.

[Leftsolidarity]

Well, looks like us Wisconsinites got some shit to deal with. We got some crazies on our hands who obviously are taking shit to the next level.

[Bostana]

It makes no sense.
Christians are hypocrites

[piet11111]

Christian fundamentalists are such reasonable peaceful people.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Not really shocking news as much worse tends to happen in more conservative parts of the country. Still, looks like Wisconsin progressives have a lot to deal with at the moment.

[Geiseric]

Jeez, the midwest. There's nothing that really deserves about it to be called "the heartland," I think. If anything it would be more comparable to a black hole, or the darkest depths of hopelessness and isolation that would be the only thing that could allow for something like juggalos to rise.

[The Douche]

Not likely to be Christian Identity, thats a pretty small sect, dude.

Probably just some regular christian who is a little nutty, probably not any militia involvement, as many of them tend to be libertarian and pro-choice. But it could be somebody involved with the militia movement since it has grown in size.

[Leftsolidarity]

Not likely to be Christian Identity, thats a pretty small sect, dude.

Probably just some regular christian who is a little nutty, probably not any militia involvement, as many of them tend to be libertarian and pro-choice. But it could be somebody involved with the militia movement since it has grown in size.

Yeah, it is most likely just 1 lone person. There are a number of little tiny groups around here though that would be into that kind of thing.

[Aurora]

Pro-life, plant bomb... Seems legit

Thankfully no one was hurt.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Calls to the police department were not answered.

Did anyone else even notice this? What, do they have Planned Parenthood on their "don't pick the fuck up list" or do they just stop providing services at a certain time?

[Bostana]

It just shows the idiocy in conservative Christians,
prove "murder" is wrong by murdering people

[Red Rabbit]

Is there even any proof that it was right-wing Christians that did it?

[The Douche]

Is there even any proof that it was right-wing Christians that did it?

I don't think there has been an instance of abortion bombings or Dr. assassinations that weren't carried out by nutjob christians.

[Bostana]

Is there even any proof that it was right-wing Christians that did it?

Who else do you think it would be?

[thriller]

Jeez, the midwest. There's nothing that really deserves about it to be called "the heartland," I think. If anything it would be more comparable to a black hole, or the darkest depths of hopelessness and isolation that would be the only thing that could allow for something like juggalos to rise.

Yeah, fuck machinists, auto-makers, farmers, and all those who rose up to support workers rights last year. Stupid fucking juggalos.

[NoPasaran1936]

BUT GUYS! THERE IS AN OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAMIC TERRORISM, AND CHRISTIAN TERRORISM.


These guys obviously did this to save our freedoms.

[NoPasaran1936]

Yeah, fuck machinists, auto-makers, farmers, and all those who rose up to support workers rights last year. Stupid fucking juggalos.

And FUCK the birth of the U.S labour movement...

[Lilith]

its not religion itself that caused this. and actually its unsure who did it, but conservative christian identity people tend to do this. and christian identity ideology is very different from regular christianity.

Yes, of course. Christianity in the US is a totally neutral force! After all, it is only a super tiny fringe minority of American Christians who oppose abortion rights. No sir, this sort of thing is definitely not in any way demonstrative of any larger and more widespread sentiments among Christians in American society. After all, here on revleft, we love Christianity, and religion in general. We pander to it any chance we get!

[Red Rabbit]

Who else do you think it would be?

Zombies? No, wait. Zombie Terrorists!

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Yes, of course. Christianity in the US is a totally neutral force! After all, it is only a super tiny fringe minority of American Christians who oppose abortion rights. No sir, this sort of thing is definitely not in any way demonstrative of any larger and more widespread sentiments among Christians in American society. After all, here on revleft, we love Christianity, and religion in general. We pander to it any chance we get!

Many Christians are anti-abortion but many would never kill people or blow up abortion centers due to their spiritual beliefs. The proof is in the pudding: If such trends were true you can bet there wouldn't be any abortion centers anyone (not under a theocracy).

[Ostrinski]

Does this mean we can bomb churches

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

Religion, as well as Christianity, is an violent section of humanity. Christian preachers continue to call for violence against Abortion Clinics all across the United States. Until the Religious Zealots have been dealt with, violence such as this will continue to occur.

[Lilith]

Many Christians are anti-abortion but many would never kill people or blow up abortion centers due to their spiritual beliefs. The proof is in the pudding: If such trends were true you can bet there wouldn't be any abortion centers anyone (not under a theocracy).

There are very, very few abortion centers in America nowadays, incidentally.

[Neoprime]

It makes no sense.
Christians are hypocrites

Not really in the bible it says "Eye for an Eye" or "Tooth for an Tooth".

Meaning if a woman wants to have an abortion and kill her baby(in the bible life is conceive at conception, and isn't sciencetific at all)and the doctor is about to abort the baby it is to ok to kill the doctor because the doctor is taking a life that cannot defend it self, so it life for a life.

[The Jay]

Not really in the bible it says "Eye for an Eye" or "Tooth for an Tooth".

Meaning if a woman wants to have an abortion and kill her baby(in the bible life is conceive at conception, and isn't sciencetific at all)and the doctor is about to abort the baby it is to ok to kill the doctor because the doctor is taking a life that cannot defend it self, so it life for a life.

Do you follow that belief or are you merely stating their logic?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Meh, sounds like one of those lame incendiary bombs that anarchists leave burn marks on banks with. I felt certain that crazy Christian fundie wingnuts would know more about explosives than that...

[Bostana]

Zombies? No, wait. Zombie Terrorists!

http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/you-cant-be-both-pro-life-and-anti-zombie.jpg

[Bostana]

Not really in the bible it says "Eye for an Eye" or "Tooth for an Tooth".

Meaning if a woman wants to have an abortion and kill her baby(in the bible life is conceive at conception, and isn't sciencetific at all)and the doctor is about to abort the baby it is to ok to kill the doctor because the doctor is taking a life that cannot defend it self, so it life for a life.

What about the famous turn the other cheek?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

There are very, very few abortion centers in America nowadays, incidentally.

The result of conservative activism and religious pressure, not Christian terrorism.

[dodger]

What a shame these dirty christians can't leave people to carry out what is often one of the simplest of simple medical procedures. Bombs or a gauntlet of baying christian bigots.Clearly designed tactics, off the shelf, what's next for them picket Jewish shops?

[blake 3:17]

The result of conservative activism and religious pressure, not Christian terrorism.

I wouldn't exclude the terrorist element. It's a fringe element that has a lot of influence.

I hadn't seen this site before: http://abortiondocs.org/ The effect of this when there is terrorist element in the anti-choice movement basically puts everyone on a hit list.

[Lilith]

The result of conservative activism and religious pressure

Yes, exactly. This notion, which seems for some inexplicable reason to be commonly held amongst people on this website, that Christianity is a neutral force in America, and that somehow religion isn't part of the problem, is absolutely false. If you think that the entire discourse around reproductive rights in this country is not framed in Christian terms, then you are either deaf and blind or willfully ignorant.

No, obviously most socially conservative Christians in this country aren't out bombing abortion clinics, but it is the entire mentality of mainstream American Christianity that breeds this sort of environment and implicitly justifies this sort of action. There are more than a few Christian Republicans in the House of Representatives harping on about the Genocide of American babies at the hands of abortionists. It is not such a great leap from that kind of belief to this kind of behavior.

[bcbm]

maybe i was slightly wrong about the whole militia situation. maybe in the context i was posting on it caused me to respond in an abnormal way, but if christian identity (not plain ol christians, but extreme christian fundamentalists and generally white supremacists) are back in action then fuck me.

small attacks like this from the christian right happen from time to time i don't think this is anything to get worked up about.


Yes, exactly. This notion, which seems for some inexplicable reason to be commonly held amongst people on this website, that Christianity is a neutral force in America, and that somehow religion isn't part of the problem, is absolutely false. If you think that the entire discourse around reproductive rights in this country is not framed in Christian terms, then you are either deaf and blind or willfully ignorant.


i don't think it makes sense to lump all christians in the us with an extremely vocal and politically active minority from certain christian groups. 77% of the us identifies as christian, 22% want to outlaw abortion completely. obviously christianity as a whole isn't the problem here.


No, obviously most socially conservative Christians in this country aren't out bombing abortion clinics, but it is the entire mentality of mainstream American Christianity that breeds this sort of environment and implicitly justifies this sort of action. There are more than a few Christian Republicans in the House of Representatives harping on about the Genocide of American babies at the hands of abortionists. It is not such a great leap from that kind of belief to this kind of behavior.

is greenpeace responsible for the earth liberation front?

[bcbm]

also the focus on 'omg christianity' neglects to draw a correlation between the decline in american manufacturing sector and economic destitution across many small towns and the rise of anti-abortion, anti-feminist etc groups in the 80s and 90s. materialism blah blah blah

[gorillafuck]

groups like army of god and other christian terrorists, while being pretty fucking scary, are not the ones responsible for the pushing back of womens rights. they are a fringe element in society that is tiny compared to the mainstream right wing anti-abortion movement that is actually causing serious setbacks.

[Lilith]

i don't think it makes sense to lump all christians in the us with an extremely vocal and politically active minority from certain christian groups. 77% of the us identifies as christian, 22% want to outlaw abortion completely. obviously christianity as a whole isn't the problem here.

And what of the Christians who want much heavier restrictions on abortion without necessarily wanting it completely outlawed, or are only okay with abortion in the case of women who were raped or impregnated via incest? I think you would find that they account for a much greater percentage than the latter one you have given.



is greenpeace responsible for the earth liberation front?I hate when people substitute inane analogies for actual arguments. When environmentalism becomes a powerfully reactionary force in mainstream American politics, and has a huge influence in reinforcing the fucked up position of women in society, let me know.

[Lilith]

also the focus on 'omg christianity' neglects to draw a correlation between the decline in american manufacturing sector and economic destitution across many small towns and the rise of anti-abortion, anti-feminist etc groups in the 80s and 90s. materialism blah blah blah

And the idea, which is super popular on this website, that 'omg its all solely economics and there is nothing superstructural, guyz', equally neglects the reinforcing role that ideology, in this case Christianity, plays in society.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

And the idea, which is super popular on this website, that 'omg its all solely economics and there is nothing superstructural, guyz', equally neglects the reinforcing role that ideology, in this case Christianity, plays in society.

Religion is a reaction towards the material conditions, so, in effect, it is, to an extent, economics (though I would phrase it political economy).

This isn't negating what you are referring to but just phrasing it as it actually exists among the masses.

[Geiseric]

Yeah, fuck machinists, auto-makers, farmers, and all those who rose up to support workers rights last year. Stupid fucking juggalos.

I was joking, sorry. I'm sure the midwest is an awesome place to live.

[Lilith]

TheGodlessUtopian

Again, to say that religion is exclusively a reaction to material conditions and nothing more, and, by extension, that it is somehow, in and of itself, a neutral force, is completely mechanical. Ideology is not simply the product of material conditions and nothing beyond that. The relationship goes both ways. Christianity in America serves to reinforce the very material conditions that spawn and necessitate it. Therefore, to oppose said material conditions is also to oppose Christianity, not to make excuses for it.

[The Jay]

TheGodlessUtopian

Again, to say that religion is exclusively a reaction to material conditions and nothing more, and, by extension, that it is somehow, in and of itself, a neutral force, is completely mechanical. Ideology is not simply the product of material conditions and nothing beyond that. The relationship goes both ways. Christianity in America serves to reinforce the very material conditions that spawn and necessitate it. Therefore, to oppose said material conditions is also to oppose Christianity, not to make excuses for it.

Whilst I agree with your premises, I disagree with your conclusion. To oppose the material conditions that Christianity uses to maintain it's existence is not the same as opposing Christianity. Take the analogy of a flower next to a stream, if one opposes the stream's current position, which the plant drinks from, and moves it via a canal the plant is removed from it's water source. This does not mean that the canal builder opposes the plant, as the builder will not stop the plant from getting water some other way: rain, mist, ect.

[Lilith]

Oh Jesus, no more inane analogies, please. If you want to make an argument, then make the argument.

[The Jay]

Oh Jesus, no more inane analogies, please. If you want to make an argument, then make the argument.

Oh Jesus, no more complaining. If you want to address my argument, in which I will use whatever tool I choose, including analogy, then do so. If you can't feel free to complain some more.

[thriller]

I was joking, sorry. I'm sure the midwest is an awesome place to live.

Ahh, well I get that sort of reaction from people who don't know the history of the Midwest and its working class roots. However, I totally agree: fuck juggalos. Magnets, how do they work?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Personally I think that the midwest is probably the most interesting region of the USA.

I wouldn't want to live there, though, with the possible exception of some parts of rural Montana and Wyoming.

[dodger]

Christian morons up to their old tricks. They are an affront to civilized people. See quite clearly here they have their apologists. Their fanatical hatred of people who just want to get on with their own lives without pope or god is breathtaking. Join the ranks of animal rights , extreme environmentalists, primitivists , Bologna bombers. Dawkins you were correct POPE IS ANTI-HUMAN, SO IS THEIR DOCTRINE. Oppose them on every level, kick'em back. Silence may be golden, often is. Cowardice and known by another name liberalism wont make our lives any better or the political scene easier. Their strategy of closing down all debate must not be allowed to succeed, give them a taste of their own medecine. These despicable christians are worthless.

[Ocean Seal]

Personally I think that the midwest is probably the most interesting region of the USA.

I wouldn't want to live there, though, with the possible exception of some parts of rural Montana and Wyoming.
Wait what?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I like the scenery. Montana and Wyoming are beautiful states.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I will spend many days tending my garden in my tiny cabin somewhere in rural Montana. When I'm not harvesting kale I'll be sending thoughtful letters and packages to various figures in government and the business community. ;)

[Welshy]

I like the scenery. Montana and Wyoming are beautiful states.

Montana and Wyoming aren't a part of the midwest, though Montana does have some beautiful geography.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Montana definitely is part of the upper midwest! According to MY definition*

The west coast: states bordering the Pacific
The east coast: states bordering the Atlantic
The South: Former Confederacy, usually I'm willing to accept that the border between Maryland and Virginia is the dividing line
The Southwest: Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada etc
The Midwest: everything else!

[Welshy]

Montana definitely is part of the upper midwest! According to MY definition.

The Upper Midwest is, as defined by the National Weather Service, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wisconsin. Even for me this is too inclusive as I would just get rid of Iowa and the Dakotas as they are too plains state-ish for me. Montana is a plains state (or at least partially because of the mountains in the west). Plus it lacks the same historical/cultural connections a lot of the Midwest has with each other. :p

On topic: While this is horrible, I do think that people are too quick to blame Christianity as a whole in typical new atheist fashion and that bcbm does raise a good point about the loss of industry in a lot of midwest (and because of this jobs) being a cause for the rise in more extreme forms of christianity.

[Lilith]

Oh Jesus, no more complaining. If you want to address my argument

There is nothing to address. You didn't actually make an argument.

[The Jay]

There is nothing to address. You didn't actually make an argument.

Then I'll re-phrase so that you can understand it. The issue of whether or not Christianity's interests or sustenance is threatened by an attack on those interests and sustenance is irrelevant to the question of what party is being attacked. This is due to the fact that attacking Christianity's current source of patrons is not in fact cutting off every possible source of patronage, as those other possible sources are spared from assault. Is that clear enough for you?

[Lilith]

Then I'll re-phrase so that you can understand it. The issue of whether or not Christianity's interests or sustenance is threatened by an attack on those interests and sustenance is irrelevant to the question of what party is being attacked. This is due to the fact that attacking Christianity's current source of patrons is not in fact cutting off every possible source of patronage, as those other possible sources are spared from assault. Is that clear enough for you?

Haha, no. Its actually complete gibberish. I will just assume that you have some sort of problem that prevents you from talking like a normal human being.


Also, just as a general statement... I am not a "new atheist", nor am I a "militant atheist". I have no sympathy for Dawkins or Hitchens or company. But such people have no sway in the American political landscape anyway, and they are given an atrociously disproportionate amount of attention on this website in relation to the actual influence they have, by people who would rather attack an irrelevant boogeyman, i.e. "New Atheism", than confront the dominant ruling class ideology in their society. What a spineless lot. Its pretty pathetic.

[dodger]

The Upper Midwest is, as defined by the National Weather Service, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wisconsin. Even for me this is too inclusive as I would just get rid of Iowa and the Dakotas as they are too plains state-ish for me. Montana is a plains state (or at least partially because of the mountains in the west). Plus it lacks the same historical/cultural connections a lot of the Midwest has with each other. :p

On topic: While this is horrible, I do think that people are too quick to blame Christianity as a whole in typical new atheist fashion and that bcbm does raise a good point about the loss of industry in a lot of midwest (and because of this jobs) being a cause for the rise in more extreme forms of christianity.

So who were those crows at my door trying to get me to sign their petition? Creepy dressed like something from a carry on film or Ealing comedy...just nobody was laughing. The abortion issue, contraceptives to combat aids, indoctrination of our children, money grabbing from state education my own brother had to kick out these parasites from the residential home for mentally ill. Their money grabbing ways and interference in clinical matters were horrendous. Potentially life threatening. If their ideas are laughable , then guffaw if it pleases you ...if their ideas endanger you or yours , why not kick them and keep kicking them until they stop what they are doing. Why don't catholics tell the pope to fuck off out? He is largely ignored...judging by the Irish accents I heard in the Family Planning Clinic. The private and very expensive abortion clinic I accompanied a friend of a friend to was full of people from Latin countries. Rich people. Utter hypocrisy no small part of why christianity is despised. New atheists as you call them are but one voice. So what other voices are to be raised? There are legions of the silent, who just wish those buggers would all perish and leave the rest of us to live in peace.

Stop making excuses for cretins....they can do that for themselves.

[The Jay]

Haha, no. Its actually complete gibberish. I will just assume that you have some sort of problem that prevents you from talking like a normal human being.


Also, just as a general statement... I am not a "new atheist", nor am I a "militant atheist". I have no sympathy for Dawkins or Hitchens or company. But such people have no sway in the American political landscape anyway, and they are given an atrociously disproportionate amount of attention on this website in relation to the actual influence they have, by people who would rather attack an irrelevant boogeyman, i.e. "New Atheism", than confront the dominant ruling class ideology in their society. What a spineless lot. Its pretty pathetic.

First of all, you're starting personal attacks. Second of all, nowhere did I mention "new atheism". Thirdly, if you can't understand what I wrote, in two different ways, then you are the one with the problem. Fourthly, I think that you're just trolling.

[Lilith]

First of all, you're starting personal attacks. It was merely out of frustration, but in any case, I apologize.

Second of all, nowhere did I mention "new atheism". You are correct, you did not. That part of my post was not addressed to you.

Thirdly, if you can't understand what I wrote, in two different ways, then you are the one with the problem I don't think so, actually. Your last post literally made no sense at all.
Fourthly, I think that you're just trolling.Incidentally, I am not.

[Robocommie]

77% of the us identifies as christian, 22% want to outlaw abortion completely. obviously christianity as a whole isn't the problem here.

Excellent point. It's funny because if you'd listen to some people around here, the vast majority of the US and the American working class are ultra-conservative zealots who are literally baying for blood on a daily basis.

There's a lot of dehumanization going on, here. That, and some really sketchy chauvinism against the Midwest and rural working people. When exactly did this place get filled up by the anti-theist equivalent of Maoist Third Worldists?

[Lilith]

There's a lot of dehumanization going on, here. That, and some really sketchy chauvinism against the Midwest and rural working people.

Yes, obviously. An abortion clinic is bombed, the position of women in society is under unrelenting attack by religious bigots, but its Christians who are the victims of dehumanization here. That sure sounds familiar.

[Robocommie]

Yes, obviously. An abortion clinic is bombed, the position of women in society is under unrelenting attack by religious bigots, but its Christians who are the victims of dehumanization here. That sure sounds familiar.

Oh, cry some more, for fuck's sakes. I was clearly speaking in the context of THIS forum. I find it particularly grating that you cut out every single part of my post, both before and after the part you quoted, that made that context clear. Seriously, were you intentionally trying to twist my post, or did you just lock in on the first sentence that made your mouse finger flinch?

[Rusty Shackleford]

so, people are christian, jewish, muslim, and atheist. should they go around killing each other based on that? no. should we take the position of one and exclude the rest from our class' struggle because of it? no.

[dodger]

Yes, obviously. An abortion clinic is bombed, the position of women in society is under unrelenting attack by religious bigots, but its Christians who are the victims of dehumanization.

Crawferrers abortion clinics attacked, has had consequences. The campaign to demonize those seeking termination along with health workers has pretty much bit the biter. We see with absolute clarity who the demons are.

Oh dear...Christian Martyrs at the stake. What a bleeding nerve. Meanwhile a thought for all those at risk now because of those painted sepulchres it will be that little bit harder to sort out a simple medical procedure and there will be many more unwanted children born. So a minor triumph for Christians...not all bad news for them.

[Robocommie]

so, people are christian, jewish, muslim, and atheist. should they go around killing each other based on that? no. should we take the position of one and exclude the rest from our class' struggle because of it? no.

Didn't you hear dude? "Workers of the world unite" doesn't apply to rednecks, apparently.

[Lilith]

Yeah, haven't you noticed? Everybody in this thread is totally saying that!

But of course, if some workers are inundated with reactionary ideology, it is obviously the job of revolutionaries to pander to that.

[Robocommie]

Yeah, haven't you noticed? Everybody in this thread is totally saying that!

But of course, if some workers are inundated with reactionary ideology, it is obviously the job of revolutionaries to pander to that.

Oh no shit, since when did holding leftists to higher standards about vast and inaccurate generalizations become pandering? I'm sorry dude, I thought the revolutionary left had the time to discern between a generally moderate to progressive population and an ultra-conservative minority of extremist terrorists. MY BAD.

I guess we shouldn't get all upset about the war in Afghanistan anymore, since you know, those people are Taliban! Or at least some of them are!

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yeah, haven't you noticed? Everybody in this thread is totally saying that!

But of course, if some workers are inundated with reactionary ideology, it is obviously the job of revolutionaries to pander to that.


oh shut up. not everyone that cracks open a quar'an or a bible are going to go and kill in the name of their god. you're just being a baby.



honestly, i dont give a fuck about anyone's religion if they are going to fight for the working class.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Crawffers, pandering to the religious is not very palatable, but neither is brow-beating all of the religious without any regard to individual or group nuances. In other words, building a movement is hard when you insist on giving all of the religious a stern lecture about how terrible their belief system is. That's why (most) people on this site generally take a more tolerant view on a person's personal religious beliefs, because attacking said beliefs often creates an extreme aversion and doesn't really produce any benefit, while dialogue can.

Religious beliefs that are projected into political institutions are another story, though.

[Lilith]

oh shut up. not everyone that cracks open a quar'an or a bible are going to go and kill in the name of their god.
No, and nor did I say that they were.



honestly, i dont give a fuck about anyone's religion if they are going to fight for the working class.Obviously religious workers can struggle in their class interests in spite of their religion. Just like sexist workers and racist workers can struggle in their class interests in spite of their racism and their sexism. Should communists take no position about such ruling class beliefs and attitudes, simply because they happen to be held by some workers?


Crawffers, pandering to the religious is not very palatable, but neither is brow-beating all of the religious without any regard to individual or group nuances. In other words, building a movement is hard when you insist on giving all of the religious a stern lecture about how terrible their belief system is.

I am not talking about lecturing anyone. It is simply a matter of principle. Because, lets face it, we live in the United States. 'Building a movement' is hard in the US right now when you insist on any sort of communist principles. But then again, maybe it isn't the role of communists to 'build a movement' anyway. If I abandoned all of my convictions in favor of 'building a movement', then in all probability, I would be voting Democrat this November.

[Os Cangaceiros]

OK, what specifically do you intend to do in order to further your beliefs regarding religion, then? Revleft is "soft on religion", so what in your opinion is the best course of action related to how pro-revolutionaries should interact with religious groups?

As far as a concept of "the movement" goes...I think it's fair to say that it obviously doesn't necessarily have to do with parties or even militant conscious working class people. But the problem one runs into when they say that the "militant minority" has absolutely NO influence or role in the historic movement is: what's the point, and what are you doing here?

[Robocommie]

No, and nor did I say that they were.

Not in so many words, but yes, you have been.



Obviously religious workers can struggle in their class interests in spite of their religion. Just like sexist workers and racist workers can struggle in their class interests in spite of their racism and their sexism. Should communists take no position about such ruling class beliefs and attitudes, simply because they happen to be held by some workers?

You're certainly far from being the first jackass to equivocate religion with racism and sexism on this forum, or use this exact same argument about religious workers. It's still a jackass position though.

Being Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu is not a god-damn character defect. Nor is religion a ruling class belief or attitude. For as long as the proletariat has existed, there has existed proletarian forms of religious expression and practice. Religion and spirituality predate class society and there is no reason to think it will ever fade from humanity even with the abolition of class society.

And quite frankly, that's fine. The exploitation of man by man is rooted in class society, not in cultural expression or ideas.

[Lilith]

OK, what specifically do you intend to do in order to further your beliefs regarding religion, then?
Not a damn thing. There is nothing I, as an individual, can do. Just as there is nothing I, as an individual, can do about capitalism, but that doesn't prevent me from having an opinion about it, nor does it compel me to water down my opinion like a preteen trying to fit in at middle school.

Revleft is "soft on religion", so what in your opinion is the best course of action related to how pro-revolutionaries should interact with religious groups?At this point in time, we are irrelevant no matter what we do, so it doesn't make much difference, does it.

[Lilith]

Not in so many words, but yes, you have been.


No, I actually haven't.

You're certainly far from being the first jackass to equivocate religion with racism and sexism on this forum, or use this exact same argument about religious workers. It's still a jackass position though.Cool story, bruh.


Being Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Hindu is not a god-damn character defect. Nor have I argued that it is. But then, neither is being racist or sexist a character defect.


Nor is religion a ruling class belief or attitude. For as long as the proletariat has existed, there has existed proletarian forms of religious expression and practice. Religion and spirituality predate class society and there is no reason to think it will ever fade from humanity even with the abolition of class society.Obviously I beg to differ.


And quite frankly, that's fine. The exploitation of man by man is rooted in class society, not in cultural expression or ideas.Yes, and obviously cultural expression and ideas within class society exist in a vaccuum, and have no relationship with class society............... Marxism, ladies and gentlemen.

[Robocommie]

What a convenient ideology - it requires you to do absolutely nothing except have principles!

[Os Cangaceiros]

So your position is essentially "we're irrelevant, and there's no use trying to intervene in any sort of day-to-day struggle regarding the position of ordinary people's lives"? Because any sort of political activity necessarily makes one come into contact with the belief systems of others.

[Lilith]

So your position is essentially "we're irrelevant, and there's no use trying to intervene in any sort of day-to-day struggle regarding the position of ordinary people's lives"? Not unless they are struggles that I am a part of as a worker, no. And in that case, I am certainly upfront with my views. But to be quite frank, most "ordinary people" are happy to tell me to fuck off as soon as I confess that I am a communist, long before I say anything at all about religion.

I am curious, though. Do you go around "intervening" in "day to day struggles of ordinary people"? Would you care to share some of your experiences with us?

[dodger]

Crawffers, pandering to the religious is not very palatable, but neither is brow-beating all of the religious without any regard to individual or group nuances. In other words, building a movement is hard when you insist on giving all of the religious a stern lecture about how terrible their belief system is.

Thank you now we get to the heart of the matter, Os Cangaceiros. Quite worthy of a thread in itself. Ehem! Why not put the cat amongst the pigeons, will it cause harm if ideas see the light of day? If we as brothers and sisters can't or won't speak their minds, how do we all move forward? Living in an Irish area of London one did not need a degree in Nuancology or sociology to see that faith reason and church loyalty was not one and indivisible. There were more pubs than churches. Deemed inappropriate to attend Sunday service with a black eye, never the less union or communist meetings never turned them away. Christian ideas and failings were always a fit subject for debate. Being whipped by Christian Brothers, the priest brow beating people for money all came out of their own mouths. A healthy atmosphere of debate needs cultivating. Let's not be mealy-mouthed. Silence is not golden. A terrible putrid stench-----and nobody farted. Not the vicar at least!

[Os Cangaceiros]

Not unless they are struggles that I am a part of as a worker, no. And in that case, I am certainly upfront with my views. I am curious, though. Do you go around "intervening" in struggles? Would you care to share some of your experiences with us?

No, I don't. I've only come into personal contact with two struggles that were "class related", neither of which I was able to directly participate in, as I was too young (although they helped shape some of my beliefs).

I'm open to the idea that the "militant minority" does have a role in intervening in struggles, though. When that happens they confront all sorts of unpleasantries related to the belief systems of individuals and groups, and when that happens I definitely think that some ways of interacting are more productive than others.

[Lilith]

and when that happens I definitely think that some ways of interacting are more productive than others.

I agree with you for sure, and I am certainly not arguing here in favor of shouting in the faces of religious workers about how religion is reactionary or whatever. Nor would I recommend shouting in the faces of male workers with the dominant ruling class prejudices that "YOUR SEXISTS!!!" The ruling ideas are the ideaa of the ruling class. As a communist, though, I like to think that my politics are diametrically opposed to all of those ideas, and I have no interest in watering down my politics for the sake of popularity. If my goal was to be popular, I would have ditched the whole communist thing long ago.

I don't think what I'm saying here is really so unreasonable.

[Rusty Shackleford]

and who here is watering down their politics? Who here is pandering?

[Geiseric]

I didn't mean FUCK THE MIDWEST I meant that people in the midwest are so poor and fucked by a multitude of forces that calling it "the heartland," would be like calling Compton "Happy town,"

[bcbm]

And what of the Christians who want much heavier restrictions on abortion without necessarily wanting it completely outlawed, or are only okay with abortion in the case of women who were raped or impregnated via incest? I think you would find that they account for a much greater percentage than the latter one you have given.

i think you'll find it still isn't a one to one correlation with the number of christians. on most of the social issues the far right christians stance is losing ground in american public opinion, not gaining. this is why they are being so aggressive in their attacks.


I hate when people substitute inane analogies for actual arguments. When environmentalism becomes a powerfully reactionary force in mainstream American politics, and has a huge influence in reinforcing the fucked up position of women in society, let me know.

ok you missed the point completely, thats cool.


And the idea, which is super popular on this website, that 'omg its all solely economics and there is nothing superstructural, guyz', equally neglects the reinforcing role that ideology, in this case Christianity, plays in society.

christianity has been in the united states for about 400 years but this particular movement is something new, which would suggest to me there is something more than just ideology at play.

[The Jay]

No, I actually haven't. Cool story, bruh.
Nor have I argued that it is. But then, neither is being racist or sexist a character defect.
Obviously I beg to differ.
Yes, and obviously cultural expression and ideas within class society exist in a vaccuum, and have no relationship with class society............... Marxism, ladies and gentlemen.

Sexism and racism clearly reflect on one's character. They show a lack of empathy, self-reflection, intelligence, and several other qualities that are associated with character.

If you're wondering why everyone's being so hostile to you when you claim to have similar views here's why: you sound like a complete dick with the way you write and like a petulant child when you use phrases like "cool story bruh" in response to legitimate criticism. I don't know if you meant to come across this way but you are doing so. Switch up your writing style if you wish, or not. I'm just trying to help.

[Robocommie]

I post frequently on a Facebook page which represents liberal and progressive Christians. On a daily basis they post articles about their dissatisfaction with the religious right and its attitudes about things. The group is actually really large, and probably has more active members than Revleft.

My own religious identity is complicated, but suffice to say I have a deep and abiding respect for the enormous variety in religious and spiritual practices of human beings. Religion has had a powerfully beneficial impact on me personally in conquering anger issues, teaching me to be more forgiving and empathetic, and discouraging me from holding grudges. I find a lot of religious scripture and writing, from many different religions, to be both incredibly moving and true on a deep emotional level in a way that almost nothing else is.

This is what is true for me. This works and improves my life immeasurably. I'll never give it up. I also don't expect others to see things the way I do, nor do I think they necessarily need to. That's the wonderful thing about life and about humans; we all have so many different ways of seeing things.

What irritates me about a lot of this opposition to religion is that it really just seems to be based on the exact same attitude evinced by the dark side of religion; that the world would be better off if everyone thought the same way as oneself. That's arrogant as hell. I have no time for more conservative religious types when they seek to save me; I don't have any time for non-believers who want to do the same. Christian evangelists and evangelical atheists share one very important feature; when they talk to me about religion, they're not talking to ME. They're talking to a caricature they've constructed in their mind to which they've already attributed all kinds of negative traits and characteristics. They don't know how I see things or why, or what my beliefs mean to me and why. They don't care to. They have their personal truth and they think that it should be everyone's truth. I think that's disgusting.

And you know, it's really frustrating, on an academic level as well. I study history, and for a long time I thought I wanted my post-academic focus to be on the European Middle Ages. Sometimes I still do. But what my studies have provided me with is a relatively deep knowledge of medieval history, society and culture, and it really irks me to hear a lot of hardcore atheists ranting about the history of religion and just being... wrong. Most of the stuff I hear about it is just based on a collection of gross oversimplifications, popular misconceptions, and just plain untruths. It's really aggravating, to say the least. And the same goes for the history and society of the Islamic Middle East, which is my other major area of interest. The amount of shit that people, even otherwise intelligent people, think to be true about the Middle East and Islamic history and societies is so founded on bullshit as to be offensive sometimes.

[Rafiq]

And the idea, which is super popular on this website, that 'omg its all solely economics and there is nothing superstructural, guyz', equally neglects the reinforcing role that ideology, in this case Christianity, plays in society.

Except Ideology acts in direct response to "Solely economics".

You're just an insecure atheist, is all. You'll out grow it.

[Rafiq]

Better a Religious who has a decent grasp of some aspects of materialism than an atheist who neglects it fully

[Neoprime]

Except Ideology acts in direct response to "Solely economics".

You're just an insecure atheist, is all. You'll out grow it.

Shut up and quit hating, and follow your religion underman, why don't you turn the other cheek.

[Neoprime]

Except Ideology acts in direct response to "Solely economics".

You're just an insecure atheist, is all. You'll out grow it.

And your a theist with Cosmic Sercurity Blanket, evolve why don't yah.

[Kyu Six]

Truth is objective. Either something is true or untrue. There is no such thing as "my truth" or anyone else's "truth". If you have no rational basis for asserting the truth of something, you simply cannot hold it up as truth.

[Lilith]

Except Ideology acts in direct response to "Solely economics".

Again, this is completely mechanical. It is not strictly a one way relationship. You are ignoring the reinforcing effect of ideology.


You're just an insecure atheist, is all. You'll out grow it.Ha ha, why thank you, tantrum prone high school student. I imagine I have been an atheist for longer than you have been alive.

[Lilith]

i think you'll find it still isn't a one to one correlation with the number of christians. on most of the social issues the far right christians stance is losing ground in american public opinion, not gaining. this is why they are being so aggressive in their attacks.

I am not sure it is the far right Christians who are the real problem. Incidentally, I read a poll recently that said support for the right to abortion in the US was at its lowest point since before Roe v. Wade.

[Sasha]

Back on topic:

Suspect arrested: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/04/03/planned-parenthood-bombing-wisconsin_n_1400449.html

Luckily the guy (white male, suprise!) managed not only to get his very distinct suv seen by witnesses and filmed by cctv, the idiot actually managed to crash it a few blocks away and got it towed..

[Robocommie]

Truth is objective. Either something is true or untrue. There is no such thing as "my truth" or anyone else's "truth". If you have no rational basis for asserting the truth of something, you simply cannot hold it up as truth.

The definition of "truth" is one of the oldest philosophical questions there is. Not everyone is going to prescribe to your same perspective, in fact a lot of people, even atheists, take a subjective approach to life and the world. Again, you cannot expect everyone to see things the same way you do on everything. The only viable social philosophy is one which allows for a plurality of viewpoints.

Your very understanding of truth is, in it's own way, a social construct. It comes about from the Enlightenment. Your conception of epistemology is handed down to you. If you had lived in a different era, you would have seen it differently. This is why a lot of philosophers and academics have been rejecting modernist epistemology. Frankly, most academic disciplines of the social sciences have rejected the "one single truth which is equally true for all" approach because of the way it's been abused in the past. It should come as no surprise that modernist social science tended to almost always support the Eurocentric paradigm, because Europeans were the dominant global force, and therefore facilitated imperialism, racism and colonialism.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Back on topic:

Suspect arrested: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/04/03/planned-parenthood-bombing-wisconsin_n_1400449.html

Luckily the guy (white male, suprise!) managed not only to get his very distinct suv seen by witnesses and filmed by cctv, the idiot actually managed to crash it a few blocks away and got it towed..

Obviously he was really smart.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I post frequently on a Facebook page which represents liberal and progressive Christians. On a daily basis they post articles about their dissatisfaction with the religious right and its attitudes about things. The group is actually really large, and probably has more active members than Revleft.

My own religious identity is complicated, but suffice to say I have a deep and abiding respect for the enormous variety in religious and spiritual practices of human beings. Religion has had a powerfully beneficial impact on me personally in conquering anger issues, teaching me to be more forgiving and empathetic, and discouraging me from holding grudges. I find a lot of religious scripture and writing, from many different religions, to be both incredibly moving and true on a deep emotional level in a way that almost nothing else is.

This is what is true for me. This works and improves my life immeasurably. I'll never give it up. I also don't expect others to see things the way I do, nor do I think they necessarily need to. That's the wonderful thing about life and about humans; we all have so many different ways of seeing things.

What irritates me about a lot of this opposition to religion is that it really just seems to be based on the exact same attitude evinced by the dark side of religion; that the world would be better off if everyone thought the same way as oneself. That's arrogant as hell. I have no time for more conservative religious types when they seek to save me; I don't have any time for non-believers who want to do the same. Christian evangelists and evangelical atheists share one very important feature; when they talk to me about religion, they're not talking to ME. They're talking to a caricature they've constructed in their mind to which they've already attributed all kinds of negative traits and characteristics. They don't know how I see things or why, or what my beliefs mean to me and why. They don't care to. They have their personal truth and they think that it should be everyone's truth. I think that's disgusting.

And you know, it's really frustrating, on an academic level as well. I study history, and for a long time I thought I wanted my post-academic focus to be on the European Middle Ages. Sometimes I still do. But what my studies have provided me with is a relatively deep knowledge of medieval history, society and culture, and it really irks me to hear a lot of hardcore atheists ranting about the history of religion and just being... wrong. Most of the stuff I hear about it is just based on a collection of gross oversimplifications, popular misconceptions, and just plain untruths. It's really aggravating, to say the least. And the same goes for the history and society of the Islamic Middle East, which is my other major area of interest. The amount of shit that people, even otherwise intelligent people, think to be true about the Middle East and Islamic history and societies is so founded on bullshit as to be offensive sometimes.

What is the name of the facebook page?

[Robocommie]

What is the name of the facebook page?

"Christians Tired of Being Misrepresented"

[Kyu Six]

The definition of "truth" is one of the oldest philosophical questions there is. Not everyone is going to prescribe to your same perspective, in fact a lot of people, even atheists, take a subjective approach to life and the world. Again, you cannot expect everyone to see things the same way you do on everything. The only viable social philosophy is one which allows for a plurality of viewpoints.

Your very understanding of truth is, in it's own way, a social construct. It comes about from the Enlightenment. Your conception of epistemology is handed down to you. If you had lived in a different era, you would have seen it differently. This is why a lot of philosophers and academics have been rejecting modernist epistemology. Frankly, most academic disciplines of the social sciences have rejected the "one single truth which is equally true for all" approach because of the way it's been abused in the past. It should come as no surprise that modernist social science tended to almost always support the Eurocentric paradigm, because Europeans were the dominant global force, and therefore facilitated imperialism, racism and colonialism.

Truth is not an epistemological construct. It is another word for a fact. You have fact and fiction. What is truth is factual. What is false is not.

Religiosity is really just undiagnosed mental illness. If you have conversations with someone who is not there or receive messages from him, you are schizophrenic, unless his name is "God" or "Jesus", in which case you're "religious". Delusion is delusion, whether it goes by the name God, Krsna, Jesus, Jove, Odin, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. That is fact.

[blake 3:17]

What irritates me about a lot of this opposition to religion is that it really just seems to be based on the exact same attitude evinced by the dark side of religion; that the world would be better off if everyone thought the same way as oneself. That's arrogant as hell. I have no time for more conservative religious types when they seek to save me; I don't have any time for non-believers who want to do the same. Christian evangelists and evangelical atheists share one very important feature; when they talk to me about religion, they're not talking to ME. They're talking to a caricature they've constructed in their mind to which they've already attributed all kinds of negative traits and characteristics. They don't know how I see things or why, or what my beliefs mean to me and why. They don't care to. They have their personal truth and they think that it should be everyone's truth. I think that's disgusting.

Have you read Chris Hedges' I Don't Believe in Atheists?

[Rafiq]

Shut up and quit hating, and follow your religion underman, why don't you turn the other cheek.

I'm a fucking atheist, actually, moron.

[Rafiq]

Again, this is completely mechanical. It is not strictly a one way relationship. You are ignoring the reinforcing effect of ideology.
Ha ha, why thank you, tantrum prone high school student. I imagine I have been an atheist for longer than you have been alive.

I hate how people think they're so enlightened for being an atheist. It doesn't take shit to be an atheist, actually.

[Rafiq]

Again, this is completely mechanical. It is not strictly a one way relationship. You are ignoring the reinforcing effect of ideology.
Ha ha, why thank you, tantrum prone high school student. I imagine I have been an atheist for longer than you have been alive.

I find it hard to believe you've been an atheist (communist)for that long and still find it necessary to re assure it to yourself constantly by blaming things on religion. May as well blame the financial crisis on greed and corruption.

[thriller]

I find it hard to believe you've been an atheist (communist)for that long and still find it necessary to re assure it to yourself constantly by blaming things on religion. May as well blame the financial crisis on greed and corruption.

I like the ageism better.

[DrStrangelove]

This sort of activity is actually looked down upon by most Christians, in the same way that car-bombings are looked down upon by most Muslims.

This activity was committed by a very fringe, very reactionary sect of Christians that have been becoming more and more irrelevant among the religious in this country each day. They're doing this out of desperation.

[thriller]

This sort of activity is actually looked down upon by most Christians, in the same way that car-bombings are looked down upon by most Muslims.

This activity was committed by a very fringe, very reactionary sect of Christians that have been becoming more and more irrelevant among the religious in this country each day. They're doing this out of desperation.

Which makes it VERY desperate considering all the anti-abortion gains that have been made in the past 5-6 years.

[Robocommie]

Truth is not an epistemological construct. It is another word for a fact. You have fact and fiction. What is truth is factual. What is false is not.

Religiosity is really just undiagnosed mental illness. If you have conversations with someone who is not there or receive messages from him, you are schizophrenic, unless his name is "God" or "Jesus", in which case you're "religious". Delusion is delusion, whether it goes by the name God, Krsna, Jesus, Jove, Odin, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. That is fact.

Fucking A. Alright, I'm done talking to you.

[Lilith]

I find it hard to believe you've been an atheist (communist)for that long and still find it necessary to re assure it to yourself constantly by blaming things on religion. May as well blame the financial crisis on greed and corruption.

Yes, I am constantly blaming things on religion because I have posted about it in one thread, and have been on this website for only a couple weeks. Cool strawman.

[Rafiq]

Yes, I am constantly blaming things on religion because I have posted about it in one thread, and have been on this website for only a couple weeks. Cool strawman.

You've stated the potential for reinforcement of Ideology. Of course, this is correct, something all materialists acknowledge. But should the mode of production necessitate otherwise (As it did at death of Feudalism), (the) Ideology itself can shatter to pieces, or, reinvent itself to adjust to these conditions.


Tell me why in the most religious fundamentalist of places, in the middle east, why political Islam was largely irrelevant and "Not taken seriously" only forty years ago. Where was the "Ideological Reinforcement" in this case? Why is it Islamism only became so popular after the fall of the Communist states and the increasing support for Islamist groups by Imperialist powers? What do you think necessitated support for Islamists? These are all questions you should be asking yourself.

[Neoprime]

I'm a fucking atheist, actually, moron.

Well use some critical thinking skill then.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well use some critical thinking skill then.
critical thinking? as in being a prick to everyone that happens to be religious?

[Lilith]

You've stated the potential for reinforcement of Ideology. Of course, this is correct, something all materialists acknowledge. But should the mode of production necessitate otherwise (As it did at death of Feudalism), (the) Ideology itself can shatter to pieces, or, reinvent itself to adjust to these conditions.


Tell me why in the most religious fundamentalist of places, in the middle east, why political Islam was largely irrelevant and "Not taken seriously" only forty years ago. Where was the "Ideological Reinforcement" in this case? Why is it Islamism only became so popular after the fall of the Communist states and the increasing support for Islamist groups by Imperialist powers? What do you think necessitated support for Islamists? These are all questions you should be asking yourself.

I don't see how any of this post has anything to do with my comments in this thread, to be honest. I have never denied that religion is, in large part, an expression of material conditions. But as I have said several times by now, the same can be said of sexism and racism, and that does not and should not prevent communists from taking a stance against such ruling class ideologies. I am genuinely surprised to find that my opinion is so controversial here. I understand it is something of a meme on revleft, but it wouldn't hurt you to read some Lenin.

[Rafiq]

I don't see how any of this post has anything to do with my comments in this thread, to be honest. I have never denied that religion is, in large part, an expression of material conditions. But as I have said several times by now, the same can be said of sexism and racism, and that does not and should not prevent communists from taking a stance against such ruling class ideologies. I am genuinely surprised to find that my opinion is so controversial here. I understand it is something of a meme on revleft, but it wouldn't hurt you to read some Lenin.

Sexism and Racism, though, are concepts that have always been concepts of reactionaries, while religions, as we have seen, tend to almost always adjust to the material conditions of the time. All religions, whom only hundreds of years ago would have been seen barbaric, have been liberalized and fit to adjust to the global capitalist order. Sexism and Racism, on the other hand, have remained yes, not so much re invented but re deployed, i.e. The main characteristics of Sexism and Racism have always been the same, they have just been used in different ways by different ruling classes, (I.e. Class divide).

I do, completely, oppose religion. That doesn't mean being religious is antithetical to being a communist. Call it unhealthy, but such is the nature of all forms of Idealism, whether they be atheist or theist. The proletariat conscious opposes racism and sexism precisely because the working class is made up of Men, Women, and peoples of all races. As it is made up of individuals of several different religions (that isn't to say being opposed to religion is just as bad as sexism, racism, however, point is:) and these religions are easily adjusted to serve the interests of a class, as a whole.

[Le Libérer]

Not really in the bible it says "Eye for an Eye" or "Tooth for an Tooth".

Meaning if a woman wants to have an abortion and kill her baby(in the bible life is conceive at conception, and isn't sciencetific at all)and the doctor is about to abort the baby it is to ok to kill the doctor because the doctor is taking a life that cannot defend it self, so it life for a life.
What are you saying here, that women who have abortions should be killed? Please explain.

[Le Libérer]

There are very, very few abortion centers in America nowadays, incidentally.
Exactly, there is only one left in Mississippi, and its barely holding on.

[bcbm]

wouldnt take you for a grave robber cotr

[Le Libérer]

wouldnt take you for a grave robber cotr
Thats good to know.