How are the real Guerillas doing now?

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I was just wondering... Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america? And hows Marcos doing?

[Edward Norton]

Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america?

Have/do you fought/fight in the jungles of Latin America?

As for the guerrillas they are as follows:

FARC=Around 17,000 strong and have been the most active Marxist guerrilla group on the planet. Have the best chance of gaining power in Latin America.

ELN=Another Colombian group thats 5000 strong and is active but not as effective as the FARC. However the ELN is more Marxist in their ideology than FARC, which is left-nationalist populist more in the stlye of Hugo Chavez than Karl Marx.

EZLN=The famed Mexican group led by the unkown 'sub-commandante' Marcos who is at the moment in talks with the government. Their outlook is Marxist with a strong blend of anarchism.

EPR=A Marxist/Castroite group in Mexico that is now contiuing the armed struggle since the EZLN ceasefire.

Shining/Luminous Path=A Maoist group in Peru which got of to a very good start in the 1980s, nearly coming to power in 1990, but has since become rather violent towards innocent peasants and has lost most of it's support and ideological convictions.

MRTA=A Castroite/Marxist group in Peru that led the famous takeover of the Japanese embassy in 1996. Has more of a chance of survival due to the near collapse of the Shining Path.

MIR-Army of the Poor=Chile's only guerrilla group which does urban warfare as opposed to the other rebel groups which are rural based. Operates very secretly and is more similar to Europes urban guerrillas (RAF, Red Brigades and N17) than the other rebel groups.

[bluerev002]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 3 2003, 04:03 PM

Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america?

EZLN=The famed Mexican group led by the unkown 'sub-commandante' Marcos who is at the moment in talks with the government.
At talks about what exactly? Sorry ive been away a while and Im behind on a few things

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Thanks that was interesting, where can I find about more about these groups? I did a search but most of the sites for these are pretty lame.

[Yazman]

Do you think they would be open to help? (might sound like a dumb question or something, but hey, we need to know these facts if we are to help the revolution!)

If so, how would one go about joining up with one of these guerilla groups?

[Edward Norton]

Unless your a poverty striken Latin American peasant, DON'T bother even trying to join any of the groups in the Americas. They would most likely consider you a spy of the CIA.

If you live in the First World, then join one of the urban guerilla networks in those countries:

Japan=Japanese Red Army (JRA)

Italy=Red Brigades (BR-PCC)
=July 20th Movement

Greece=November 17 (N17)
=Revolutionary Cells

Spain=Spanish Communist Party-Reconstitution (GRAPO)

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

I am an american and I am moving to Oaxaca this January, which is bordering Chiapas, the main center of action for the EZLN.

[DeadMan]

Hello,

I'm a new comer to this board, as you can obviously see. But I have been a fan of Che for a while. I read 2 books on him and as much as I can of the internet. Althought I would not concider myself a Communist, I do understand the idiology, and it would certainly work if human flaws (greed, hate, vengance) didn't effect it. But I would certainly love to learn about revolutionary groups within Canada, especially Ontario. Although I doubt they would be any, it would be very interesting to read up on them. I always thought Canada needed a revolution to give it it's own identity. I don't like being called America Jr. As a proud Canadian it's very insulting.

If anyone would assist me in my search for any revolutionary groups within Canada, the help would be very appreciated.

DeadMan.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

There should be some type of group like this in America.

[Urban Rubble]

Why ? So they can be slaughtered immediately ?

Guerilla warfare at this point in America is an impossibility.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 8 2003, 08:13 PM
Guerilla warfare at this point in America is an impossibility.
Sadly, very true. :(
The government would probably end any major movement within hours after its start.

[Nobody]

Japan=Japanese Red Army (JRA)

They operate mostly out of Libya now adays. There only fifty or so left, but I hear they are recruiting throughout South Asia.


Italy=Red Brigades (BR-PCC)
=July 20th Movement

The branch non-Itailians join is the International Communist Combat Party. Operates throughout Europe to this day.


Greece=November 17 (N17)

These guys do not recurit, there was only twenty to thirty of them. All founding members, that is how come they wer never busted.

How I know this? Don't ask, long story. :ph34r:

[Urban Rubble]

I don't like how this thread is worded. Who are these "fake" guerillas ?

[Eastside Revolt]

I was wondering about the red army faction and other european based urban geurilla groups. Do these people belive in a full-on vangaurd approach? Are they planning on freeing small areas? or are they just insane? :P

[DeadMan]

Well. I do beleive guerilla warfare within Canada is still possible. With it's vast lands it would be almost impossible not to be able to make guerilla warfare in Canada. The government, in my opinion, is a weak one inside Canada. People litteraly can get away with murder in this place. It wouldn't take alot to take power of a section within Canada, keeping it tho, is another story. I mean, the US is only a stones throw away so they could easily crush a rebellion. Unless they hit, ultimatly within 24 hours of the first attack, Ottawa. Take the main gouvernment buildings with a few of the members inside. You could make something happen. If Quebecers could kill and flee to Cuba in the 70s, then it could still happen now adays right? Just a thought.

DeadMan.

[Eastside Revolt]

You see that's the problem, geurilla warfare would be possible only if you have mass public opinion on you're side. If not, then our winters and landscape would kill multiple people. The only way to survive the winters would be stockpilles of food, which would need to be grown somewhere that is industrialised, therefore needing huge public support to get them through your seige-points, urban or rural. We don't habe that kind of support in Canada.

[Edward Norton]

There should be some type of group like this in America.

There was back in the 1970s and 1980s. The US had the Wethermen Underground, the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) and Black Liberation Army (BLA).


Guerilla warfare at this point in America is an impossibility.

Nothing is impossible and if you think that so, then you might as well say socialism full stop is impossible. This has been a major problem of the Left, this defeatist attitude, which has had the effect of putting off people who have become dissillusioned with capitalist society, only to find a bunch of 'socialist/communist' groups saying the revolution will never happen.

I am not saying that the Weathermen and the SLA did not make mistakes or they used innapropriate tactics, what I am saying is that EXTREME patience and endurance are needed in guerrilla warfare (both rural and urban). Gurrillas are always weaker than the government forces, especially at the beggining if the stuggle, so you have to keep engaging with the enemy many times and on many fronts, sometimes these engagements will end in defeat and any true guerrilla will ACCEPT this.

It may take many decades to win the armed struggle, but if you are a REAL revolutionary, the lenght of time of the armed struggle should not concern you, as you are not fighting for personal power/status/self-interest, but the liberation of humanity. This is what seperated Che Guevara from Castro, the latter content after taking power in his country and Che who would never rest and aid all struggle of the oppresed, regardless of the outcome for himself.


Why ? So they can be slaughtered immediately ?

All capitalist states have the ability to slaughter their people if they rise up, whether it is the USA or Nepal.

If you go by the assupmtion that revolution should NOT happen due to the reaction of your oppresor, then you might as well not have a revolution and instead give up and hand over the entire planet on a silver plate to the global corporations, US imperialism and the two faced fascist politicians.

Revolution will be violent, not out of any bloodlust on our behalf, but because the insticts of the ruling class is to PRESERVE TOTAL POWER at all costs, even the use of FORCE.

Therefore, we must ready ourselves for the inevitable fight, or as I said earlier, give up and become another wage-slave content with the dullness of consumerism and suburban living.


Why ? So they can be slaughtered immediately ?

Again, what I said above applies to this quote as well. However I'll add the point that even peaceful legal opposition is still MONITORED and INFILTRATED by the FBI/MI5/CIA and the police.

So peacful protest is WORSE in two senses:

*Being open to anyone, makes it so easy for government agencies to control and keep watch on.

*Being peaceful, it achieves next to NOTHING and even those small things it achieves are only dismanteled all in good time. An example is abortion, demos and petitions, along with electoral lobbying got womens right to abortion in 1973, yet after the issue goes out of the media (itself capitalist and oppressive) abortion is now under threat form the current US regime.

Fuck elections/demos/petions as they sap all revolutionary potential into the dead end of reformism. Get rid of the politicians and the capitalist establishment and you will NEVER have to worry about your rights and hard earned freedoms being destroyed again!


Greece=November 17 (N17)

They are now defunct, after their unjust imprisonment by a pro-junta Greek judiciary.

Most of the N17 members who evaded arrest, have now joined a new group called the Revolutionary Cells.


or are they just insane?

That is a rather immature way of thinking. Yes by all means question ones actions, but please don't use silly name calling on people who were prepared to give their lives for the cause of freedom, more than I imagine you have ever done!


With it's vast lands it would be almost impossible not to be able to make guerilla warfare in Canada.

Please study Che's and Mao's writings, as a rural guerrilla campaign is meant for the developing world, where most people live in the countryside as poverty striken and downtrodden.

Canada is an urban industrialised state, where the oppressed people are to be found in the cities. The cities are the concrete jungle of the first world urban guerrilla. Che and Mao both said that you need to fight in the area in which the people you fight for live in, ie: with the peseants in China or Cuba.

However Canada can ONLY have a guerrilla war in the cities, as there are virtually NO people in the rockies! How would you recriut/build support and develope propoganda in the rockies???

[Eastside Revolt]

"Canada is an urban industrialised state, where the oppressed people are to be found in the cities. The cities are the concrete jungle of the first world urban guerrilla. Che and Mao both said that you need to fight in the area in which the people you fight for live in, ie: with the peseants in China or Cuba."

Not entirely true, the worst poverty in Canada is rural. I've seen it with my own eyes. In Vancouver's Downtown Eastside is suposedly the poorest neighbourhood in Canada. But, in places not very far away such as Bella Bella, there is poverty just as bad, and in other places I cant even spell the name to, there isn't even running water, meanwhile people are huffing away on glue and drinking 24/7. :(

[nezvanova]

Some of the worst povery in Canada can be found in rural areas. In remote places in the rockies, and northern areas where there may not be as many people, but there are many downtrodden people. Just look at cities in B.C. alone! Cities like Dawson Creek, Fort Nelson, Fort St John, Prince George, etc etc (small cities, with very rural outlying areas. To a small degree, urban guerilla warfare would have to come into play, but a large portion of people living in these cities, myself included, do live in the outlaying areas). These are places in the what is supposed to be the rich, clean cut, yuppy western Canada! These are all cities that depend almost entirely on either Oil, Agriculture, or foresty (and, seasonally, on tourism) Or, if you want to see real povery in Canada, just take a look at any Native reservation. Delapedated houses, malnourished children, people who barely have clothes on their backs! That would be the place to start! One should also consider all the tension right now in forrestry dependant cities. The workers are getting antsy because no money is coming back to B.C. from all the work they do everyday. The land is getting raped, resources are running out, and the USA is reaping all the benifets. The lumber dispute could be used for the guerillas beinifet, assuming that the people getting the short of the stick would be willing to fight against it. Anyway, I probably souldn't divulge any revolutionary plans over the internet :P The Americans might get worried :lol:

[Edward Norton]

Yes, redcanada, but the point I was making, was that Canada does NOT have a major peseant population like Cuba/China. That does not mean ignore poverty in the countryside, just wage the struggle where it matters, ie; in the citites.

[nezvanova]

but these people are pretty much peasants! They are born into poverty, it's self purpetuating, they can't afford educations, so they get stuck doing dead end jobs, making no money, and barely feeding their families. They may as well be serfs.

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 10 2003, 01:18 AM
Yes, redcanada, but the point I was making, was that Canada does NOT have a major peseant population like Cuba/China. That does not mean ignore poverty in the countryside, just wage the struggle where it matters, ie; in the citites.
The reason why Canada's 'peasant' (farmers, lumbers, hunters) is on the down is because of the general technology advancements. My grandpas farm employed over 50 all year and about 150 during the summer. Now a farm employs less then 30 during the summer. Why? Because a damn tractor with the right tool on it can replace 20 men in a field. The same is going for the lumbers and hunters. The reason why 'peasants' in other countries are still high is because they either don't have the technology or they can't afford it. No adays our peasants are the poor urbans; The people caught in dead-end jobs.

DeadMan.

[hugebologna]

Revolution anywhere is possible. Even in the U.S. When we were killed immediately the movement would gain support, and more groups would from, it would show that the capitolist system is all about itself and it doesnt recognize any other form of government, unless they speak money or terrorism. Revolution in the U.S. will happen one day, there are three things to come of the aftermath, Communism, Socialism(Whoo-hoo), and/or Anarchy.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 4 2003, 12:03 AM

Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america?

Have/do you fought/fight in the jungles of Latin America?

As for the guerrillas they are as follows:

FARC=Around 17,000 strong and have been the most active Marxist guerrilla group on the planet. Have the best chance of gaining power in Latin America.

ELN=Another Colombian group thats 5000 strong and is active but not as effective as the FARC. However the ELN is more Marxist in their ideology than FARC, which is left-nationalist populist more in the stlye of Hugo Chavez than Karl Marx.

EZLN=The famed Mexican group led by the unkown 'sub-commandante' Marcos who is at the moment in talks with the government. Their outlook is Marxist with a strong blend of anarchism.

EPR=A Marxist/Castroite group in Mexico that is now contiuing the armed struggle since the EZLN ceasefire.

Shining/Luminous Path=A Maoist group in Peru which got of to a very good start in the 1980s, nearly coming to power in 1990, but has since become rather violent towards innocent peasants and has lost most of it's support and ideological convictions.

MRTA=A Castroite/Marxist group in Peru that led the famous takeover of the Japanese embassy in 1996. Has more of a chance of survival due to the near collapse of the Shining Path.

MIR-Army of the Poor=Chile's only guerrilla group which does urban warfare as opposed to the other rebel groups which are rural based. Operates very secretly and is more similar to Europes urban guerrillas (RAF, Red Brigades and N17) than the other rebel groups.
My father was in the MIR group

[Edward Norton]

Hugo.

Was the MIR-Army of the Poor, responsible for the 1987 attempted assination of Chilean dictator General Pinochet?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 01:43 AM
I was just wondering... Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america? And hows Marcos doing?
They are doing fine, terrorizing countries and killing innocent people.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 07:04 PM
I am an american and I am moving to Oaxaca this January, which is bordering Chiapas, the main center of action for the EZLN.
and what do you plan to do in Chiapas? just dont cross the border into Guatemala.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 08:51 PM
Well. I do beleive guerilla warfare within Canada is still possible. With it's vast lands it would be almost impossible not to be able to make guerilla warfare in Canada. The government, in my opinion, is a weak one inside Canada. People litteraly can get away with murder in this place. It wouldn't take alot to take power of a section within Canada, keeping it tho, is another story. I mean, the US is only a stones throw away so they could easily crush a rebellion. Unless they hit, ultimatly within 24 hours of the first attack, Ottawa. Take the main gouvernment buildings with a few of the members inside. You could make something happen. If Quebecers could kill and flee to Cuba in the 70s, then it could still happen now adays right? Just a thought.

DeadMan.
CANADA BASICALLY HAS NO ARMY LEFT. SO A GUERILLA MOVEMENT IN CANADA WOULD have the chance of succeding.

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 4 2003, 12:03 AM

Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america?

Have/do you fought/fight in the jungles of Latin America?

As for the guerrillas they are as follows:

FARC=Around 17,000 strong and have been the most active Marxist guerrilla group on the planet. Have the best chance of gaining power in Latin America.

ELN=Another Colombian group thats 5000 strong and is active but not as effective as the FARC. However the ELN is more Marxist in their ideology than FARC, which is left-nationalist populist more in the stlye of Hugo Chavez than Karl Marx.

EZLN=The famed Mexican group led by the unkown 'sub-commandante' Marcos who is at the moment in talks with the government. Their outlook is Marxist with a strong blend of anarchism.

EPR=A Marxist/Castroite group in Mexico that is now contiuing the armed struggle since the EZLN ceasefire.

Shining/Luminous Path=A Maoist group in Peru which got of to a very good start in the 1980s, nearly coming to power in 1990, but has since become rather violent towards innocent peasants and has lost most of it's support and ideological convictions.

MRTA=A Castroite/Marxist group in Peru that led the famous takeover of the Japanese embassy in 1996. Has more of a chance of survival due to the near collapse of the Shining Path.

MIR-Army of the Poor=Chile's only guerrilla group which does urban warfare as opposed to the other rebel groups which are rural based. Operates very secretly and is more similar to Europes urban guerrillas (RAF, Red Brigades and N17) than the other rebel groups.
where did you get your information from?

[Inti]

Hey Zapatista. Found a little bit about Sendero Luminoso or The Shining path as they are called in english.

If you know your spanish:

http://www.cinterfor.org.uy/public/spanish...27/ii/index.htm (http://www.cinterfor.org.uy/public/spanish/region/ampro/cinterfor/temas/youth/doc/not/libro27/ii/index.htm)
http://www.rnw.nl/informarn/html/act030414...14_sendero.html (http://www.rnw.nl/informarn/html/act030414_sendero.html)
http://www.analitica.com/va/internacionale...ion/2484769.asp (http://www.analitica.com/va/internacionales/opinion/2484769.asp)

Something in english attacks from 1988 to the present, but it is kind of lame because they have let out the attacks against the military.

http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgattack.cfm?orgid=40

Here from the Cnn in spanish where they tell that they have captured one of the minds behind the Sendero

http://cnnenespanol.com/2003/americas/11/0...eru.captura.ap/ (http://cnnenespanol.com/2003/americas/11/09/Peru.captura.ap/)

And here is a homepage that supports Sendero Luminoso as well

http://www.csrp.org/

Here is a videoclip from Americatv, the capture of Dalton who is one of the leaders of Sendero

http://www.americatv.com.pe/noticias/view....p?id_video=1551 (http://www.americatv.com.pe/noticias/view.asp?id_video=1551)

There is lot more.. I can tell you that there is lots of Senderistas in the world, here in Sweden and Norway lot of them got political asylum before when the governments here didnt know what they were about. I dont like the Senderistas myself since they murdered lot of familymembers of my wife. They also captured a woman that were fighting for the womens right, stuffed her with explosives and ignited it. I dont remember the year, but if I find my wife online before she gets back here, I could give you the info..

[Edward Norton]

They are doing fine, terrorizing countries and killing innocent people.

Well that just shows the level of stupitidy that this far right dickshit has!!!

The Zapatistas DON'T get involved in any other countires and they have killed at most 50 government soilders.

Compare that to the THOUSANDS killed by the Mexican government and their army.

Compare that to the 5000 Mexican civilians killed since the 1970s and the fact that for 70 years Mexico was a corporatist fascist dictatorship and that the armed struggle is the ONLY way to freedom there!

Besides nazi shits like el profe complain about alleged/non-existant 'crimes' of the rebels, yet will lick the arse of such vile dictators like Augusto Pinochet and Fransico Franco without second thought!

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 15 2003, 10:34 PM

They are doing fine, terrorizing countries and killing innocent people.

Well that just shows the level of stupitidy that this far right dickshit has!!!

The Zapatistas DON'T get involved in any other countires and they have killed at most 50 government soilders.

Compare that to the THOUSANDS killed by the Mexican government and their army.

Compare that to the 5000 Mexican civilians killed since the 1970s and the fact that for 70 years Mexico was a corporatist fascist dictatorship and that the armed struggle is the ONLY way to freedom there!

Besides nazi shits like el profe complain about alleged/non-existant 'crimes' of the rebels, yet will lick the arse of such vile dictators like Augusto Pinochet and Fransico Franco without second thought!
when i say terrorizing countries, I mean their own countries and i was mostly talking about the Farc in colombia. And mexico was a dictatorship for 70 years, your right about that, and im not fukcing mexican so i dont care what the hell anyone does with that country.

[Edward Norton]

Add to that, Colombia's 'democracy' is meaningless as most of the Colombian elections and parties are either controlled or bribed by the drug cartels and various land owners/cattle ranchers.

FARC operate in southern Colombia, but I have yet to hear them attacking Peru, Ecuador or Venezuela, so how do they 'terrorise' other countries?

FARC are NOT international terrorists but Colombian rebels.

If you want a genuine and real peace in Colombia, then it will take more than launching a war agianst the rebels, but will invovlve the following:

*Abolition of fascist AUC terror/vigilante group.

*New coalition government representing ALL political opinions in Colombia and the overthrow of the fascist Urribe regime. Soon to be followed by FAIR and UNCORRUPT elections with international (and non-US) supervision.

*Abolition of US intervention and the 'Plan Colombia'.

*Real and effective land reform with compensation to the poor for their past exploitation and suffering.

*Halting of all further privisations and people to be given say in economic planning to turn Colombia into a participortary democracy.

*Heavy reform of the military, with a purge of rightist elements and military to apoligise and compensate for all human rights abuses.

Only when this happens should the ELN and FARC halt all further attacks and then both ELN and FARC can join up with a new reformed military force of Colombia.

If the Colombian government refuses to meet those basic demands, FARC/ELN should wage more war against the government, hopefully with FARC/ELN taking over Colombia in the future.

[nezvanova]

Canada has no army left? THats a pretty naive thing to say. I'm well aware that Canada's military has been the butt of many a joke, but Canada does have a rather respectable military force, not to mention the powerhouse sitting just to the south of Canada....I'm sure the U$A Gov't would be adamently against any attempt at a guerrilla insurgency in Canada. It's not an impossability, but there are many set backs.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 16 2003, 01:35 AM
Add to that, Colombia's 'democracy' is meaningless as most of the Colombian elections and parties are either controlled or bribed by the drug cartels and various land owners/cattle ranchers.

FARC operate in southern Colombia, but I have yet to hear them attacking Peru, Ecuador or Venezuela, so how do they 'terrorise' other countries?

FARC are NOT international terrorists but Colombian rebels.

If you want a genuine and real peace in Colombia, then it will take more than launching a war agianst the rebels, but will invovlve the following:

*Abolition of fascist AUC terror/vigilante group.

*New coalition government representing ALL political opinions in Colombia and the overthrow of the fascist Urribe regime. Soon to be followed by FAIR and UNCORRUPT elections with international (and non-US) supervision.

*Abolition of US intervention and the 'Plan Colombia'.

*Real and effective land reform with compensation to the poor for their past exploitation and suffering.

*Halting of all further privisations and people to be given say in economic planning to turn Colombia into a participortary democracy.

*Heavy reform of the military, with a purge of rightist elements and military to apoligise and compensate for all human rights abuses.

Only when this happens should the ELN and FARC halt all further attacks and then both ELN and FARC can join up with a new reformed military force of Colombia.

If the Colombian government refuses to meet those basic demands, FARC/ELN should wage more war against the government, hopefully with FARC/ELN taking over Colombia in the future.
First of all , i never said they terrorized other countries. But now they do, they kidnapped some tourist in Panama territory. They are being helped by the venezuelan president (dictator) chavez. Ecuador also took out some airfield being used by the farc in Ecuador. So they are getting into other countries.

As to parties being controlled by drug cartels, the cartels are in a joint operation with the Farc, that just shows how much you know (nothing) that is why the farc have been able to be succesfull, because they are involved with the cartel. But i bet their are some corrupt pepole in gov. just like all around latin america.

The AUC terror group is a counter group that uses the same methods as the guerillas do. Corrupst elections?, the only corrupt electoins are the onnes where the Farc terrorizes a town and they force the town people to vote for a Farc mayor. Did you know the Farc just forced out 50 mayors? are all those corrupt mayors? no.

USA is helping them mainly because they know the guerrilla work with the drug cartels. Exploitation of the poor by both the FARC and the gov.


HOW ABOUT THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES COMMITED by the farc which are the same and worse as the gov's abuses. The gov goes after guerilla and suspectd guerillas. AND you know, if the military would be ablo to really go after the guerillas this war would be over like it was in outher latin american countries.



You have no idea how guerillas work, they are vicious killers that need to be treated like that.

[Hate Is Art]

che was a viscous corrupt killer?

armed struggle is the olny way tobring about change that lasts!

[Edward Norton]

Well this Nazi fucker (el profe) has the fucking nerve to call me ignorant of Latin America.

Colombia has the largest amount of state/paramilitary killings of trade unionist in the ENTIRE WORLD (a statistic verified by human rights groups/other trade unionists/UN/charities). All carried out by the government or the AUC (which gets its money from the US/Colombian government and the cartels).

FARC do not kill ANY trade unionists or the general masses of people. Yes FARC kill Colombian politicans and businessmen, yet they have killed MANY innocent people so they deserve to die. When FARC kill, they bring justice!!!

Shows how stupid and fucking braindead you are if you think Chavez is a dictator. He was elected by a large landslide and the people came out to support him during the failed US backed coup in April 2002. If the anti-Chavez 'opposition' (this isn't even the Venezuelan people, but a few US diplomats, rich businessmen and a few fascists) claims that Chavez is bad for Venezuela, then why not have/or wait for an election? Elections DO EXIST in Venezuela, yet the 'opposition' do not want elections because they will fail and see another victory for Chavez.

Hence they resort to coups and military juntas, the classic way rich people in South America keep their illegal wealth and keep everyone else in poverty and deny them democracy.

As for FARC, they TAX cocaine yes, but they do NOT GROW or SELL it!!!

However 'president'/dictator Urribe has had plenty of donations from the cartels for over a decade. As well as the fact that the government gives the cartels a free ride and has allowed the cartels to rule Colombia the same way plantation/slave owners ruled the Confederate States of Amreica (the South) during the US civil war.

So before you make LIES about rebels killing innocent people (FARC kill the rich and the military and they are NOT innocent) get your fucking facts rights you little Nazi Shit!!!

[el_profe]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 19 2003, 12:57 AM
Well this Nazi fucker (el profe) has the fucking nerve to call me ignorant of Latin America.

Colombia has the largest amount of state/paramilitary killings of trade unionist in the ENTIRE WORLD (a statistic verified by human rights groups/other trade unionists/UN/charities). All carried out by the government or the AUC (which gets its money from the US/Colombian government and the cartels).

FARC do not kill ANY trade unionists or the general masses of people. Yes FARC kill Colombian politicans and businessmen, yet they have killed MANY innocent people so they deserve to die. When FARC kill, they bring justice!!!

Shows how stupid and fucking braindead you are if you think Chavez is a dictator. He was elected by a large landslide and the people came out to support him during the failed US backed coup in April 2002. If the anti-Chavez 'opposition' (this isn't even the Venezuelan people, but a few US diplomats, rich businessmen and a few fascists) claims that Chavez is bad for Venezuela, then why not have/or wait for an election? Elections DO EXIST in Venezuela, yet the 'opposition' do not want elections because they will fail and see another victory for Chavez.

Hence they resort to coups and military juntas, the classic way rich people in South America keep their illegal wealth and keep everyone else in poverty and deny them democracy.
before you make LIES about rebels killing innocent people
As for FARC, they TAX cocaine yes, but they do NOT GROW or SELL it!!!

However 'president'/dictator Urribe has had plenty of donations from the cartels for over a decade. As well as the fact that the government gives the cartels a free ride and has allowed the cartels to rule Colombia the same way plantation/slave owners ruled the Confederate States of Amreica (the South) during the US civil war.

So(FARC kill the rich and the military and they are NOT innocent) get your fucking facts rights you little Nazi Shit!!!
WELL i was born and lived 18 years of my life in Latin America and still visit so i know more and will always know more about latin america, youve probably only been to mexico, you piece of shit. Ive lived through all the same things that are going on in Colombia, so I understand both sides of the argument.
The fact that you say RICH PEOPLE DESERVE TO BE KILLED just shows what type of hate you have. Not all rich people have made mony illegally.

FIRST OF ALL THERE ARE two parts of the Guerilla strategy in Colombia. First the fighting one, in which the guerilla attacks their own people and gov. Second part, is they have the "smart" communist, infiltrate postitions in the gov. and most importantly infiltrate the UNIONS and the human rights goups in Colombia. THAT IS A FACT YOU MORON.

Farc do not kill trade unionist or masses of people?
LIES the unionist that opposed them have been killed and they have also killed masses of people like small villages that help the gov, and defend them selfs from these terrorist. AND NOT ALL BUSSINESMAN ARE RICH. Why do you think the rich deserve to die? and not al politicians are corrupt.

Chavez is becomong a dictator. That is why i put president (dictator).
CHAVEz won the elections in 1998, in 1999 he passed a lwa where president will be in power for 6 years. IN 2000 he won by a very thin margine and with 54% of the nation not voting. In 200 his assault against the economy began. He recently said he will govern till 2013.
He intimidates journalists with gangs of thugs. During the 3 month strike in Venzuela he had his thugs go and beat up the protestors.
HOW CAN YOU GET THE WHOLE NATION TO STOP ON A 3 month strike with only rich bussinesman leading it?????
They just got more than 2 million signatures to get Chavez out of power, and even then Chavez with his thugs called "Círculos Bolivarianos" which he has helped to arm have been clashing vilently against the people waiting in line to sign. IN a clash during the first strike in 199 17 people where killed by his "circulos bnolivarianos". He has passed many laws where most of the power is given to the president.

The FARC ARE WORKING AND grow cocaine, their allies the drug cartels sell them and the guerrillas protect the drug fields. YOURE an idiot in saying that the carteles bribe all politcians, some probaly.
THE FARC ARE IN JOINT OPERATIONS WITH THE GUERILLA AND THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ALLOW THE CARTEL TO RUN COLOMBIBA> BETWEEN THE CARTEL AND GUERILLA THEY make more than a billion a year , killing, kidnaping , stealing and selling drugs. these 1 billion dollars helps them fihgt an underpowered colombian army.

SO A POOR VILLAGEMAN THAT OPPOSES THEM and does not want to give them his mayor positions and is killed is rich?
youre a fucking idiot, and have no ideahow the guerillas work. Ive lived through so I know how things go, you fucking idiot. AND TO SAY BUSSINESMAN DESERVE TO DIE AND RICH PEOPLE DESERVE TO DIE, just shows the hate you have. in you, i feel sorry for you.

[FarfromNear]

TO: EDWARD NORTON, and whoever is interested in the subject.


I could not agree more with El Profe. Edward Norton, what is your experience with Latin American guerrilla? It seems like you do not know what you are talking about. You are making assumptions and throwing fallacies all over the place. I grew up in Latin America and my whole family lived through dictatorships and guerrilla warfare. Many security guards and laborers that I knew had been in the army who fought against the guerilla. They would often times tell me stories of what they saw when they were trying to fight the guerilla. They told me about people they killed, towns where they stole, raped, and killed innocent people, and the heinous acts against army soldiers. What El Profe say's are not lies of rebels killing innocent people, it's the truth.

The whole guerilla deal in many of these countries went from being a political issue, in to being a money thing. The guerrilla was trying to make money to cover their cost, but in the 80's till present, most of those guerillas are involved in kidnapping, drugs, smuggling, etc. My Dad would tell me about people that were kidnapped by guerrilla, and also homes that were bombed by guerillas. I have a friend whose Dad actually witnessed members of an activist group, enter their house and kill the security guard in cold blood, and kidnap his father. Why? His father was manager of a car dealership, so they went for the money.

In fact, a relative's cousin, was actually a guerilla who later fled to Mexico to escape retribution. Again, he first joined sometime in the 70's because of the political ideals. Now, no relative has heard from him. He abandoned his wife and kids for the cause.

I also know many many families from Colombia, Venezuela, and Peru that would tell you what life was like under dictatorships. I also know many families in Guatemala, poor families, "peasants," as some of you might call them, who will tell you of the atrocious acts that the guerilla committed against them, their own people, their own social class.


Norton, as far as politics and elections go, you really shouldn't be talking about it because you clearly have no understanding of how the politics and elections in Latin America work. The reason I say this is because I lived through it for a great part of my life. My family is currently living through it. Things are not how they seem to be on TV. It seems like you have done research, but you don't have grounds to argue, especially with someone who lived in Latin America, who is Latin American, and knows Latin American history. I have attended many University level Latin American History Courses in the US, and I can honestly say, I learned 10 times more in history classes in High School (Latin America), not to say, my life experiences.

I agree entirely with EL Profe. I'm glad he had the nerve to call you ignorant of Latin America, your response clearly proves that.

Straying a little from the topic, in years of research, I have learned that guerillas and socialism, are the hatred of the rich, derived from jealousy. If you can not see the obvious links between all that, than you are certainly blinded by jealousy. Id like to quote you.

Norton: "Hence they resort to coups and military juntas, the classic way rich people in South America keep their illegal wealth and keep everyone else in poverty and deny them democracy."

I'll tell you this much, there is illegal wealth in Latin America, a lot of it linked to corrupt government officials, and ex-guerillas who have money and are linked with kidnapping groups. In the other hand, there is a lot of legal wealth, and a lot of foreign investors who are rich because of land, or corporations. Its thanks to them that people like me could move forward in life. They gave us job opportunities, charity, food, living, and helped the economy as much as they could(being restricted by Gov't). It really is ignorant to say that they deny them democracy. There are elections like you said, people vote the way they vote for a reason. They are all against the wealthy class, basically because of jealousy. People are allowed to vote, but they have no education to actually vote smartly. Before people can have say on economic planning, the need to know basic economics, which they do not know because they never had the education. US intervention is in fact better for those countries. It is better to have the US, proof of the success of Free Market Economy, as opposed to the European Union with their socialistic mentality.

A land reform for compensation to the poor for past exploitations? What would those be? Back when the Spanish came to colonize. Back in the early 1900s when they were given jobs to work in farms, and in the city? The poor weren't enslaved like blacks in the South. I can't see were your coming from with those ideas. In a lot of those small towns, there is no rich man going to exploit them, it is in fact them killing an Asian man, for taking pictures of people. It is in fact, 3 American tourists being raped and beaten on their way to small town. There is no completely innocent side, both sides have done wrong, being in violence, or exploitation. But just remember, it is the rich that gave us jobs, and will continue to give us jobs as long as the government with people like Chavez leading the country.

The way I see it is, we need to educate our people to understand economics and politics. The they see it is that the rich are bad because they have, and we don't. That's the wrong way to see it. The hatred towards the rich is derived from jealousy. They need to be educated. It will be then when they will make the right choice in elections, and we will have leaders who will slowly start the reformation process. That is my suggestion to a better Latin America. When all that is satisfied, and we have a proper economy, will be when we have peace in Colombia, and other countries.

Let me ask you ask you something, how is it that the government and businessmen have killed a lot of people and deserve to die? Where are you facts. The governments maybe, but businessmen?? That is soo ignorant and so directed towards the rich businessmen. We can see your jealousy. I am betting that you probably don't have much money, you are jealouse. Don't sit back in anger against the rich and jealousy towards them, find a way so that you can one day be rich, legally, not like cartels and guerrillas. Be smart about it, lose the envy.

[FarfromNear]

Speaking of guerrilla, did you hear the news about the guerrilla in Colombia? Apparently some group of guerrillas went into a ranch and they butchered over 200 cattle. They cut them with machetes and chopped at them and left them alive to bleed to death. The reason they did that was so that the Rancher could not sell his cattle. IT was basically against the rancher. I am not an animal rights activist by any means, but that is kind of cruel, and stupid. But youre right, the guerrillas are fun loving men who would never hurt an innocent soul.

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 04:24 AM
Speaking of guerrilla, did you hear the news about the guerrilla in Colombia? Apparently some group of guerrillas went into a ranch and they butchered over 200 cattle. They cut them with machetes and chopped at them and left them alive to bleed to death. The reason they did that was so that the Rancher could not sell his cattle. IT was basically against the rancher. I am not an animal rights activist by any means, but that is kind of cruel, and stupid. But youre right, the guerrillas are fun loving men who would never hurt an innocent soul.
It's not just guerrillas who do this. Soldiers of ALL militaries do this kind of stuff. Vietnam is all I have to say...

DeadMan.

[FarfromNear]

True , Im not sayint that the army are all saints, but im just saying of what the other guys do to innoncent people for their own well being, for money. Vietnam is an example, were the soldiers wrong in doing SOME of that stuff? NO. I met a man who fought in Vietnam who told me that there were times when kids would go out to american soldiers and ask for candies, and they would stick their hands in the soldier's pockets. Well, a couple times kids actually put grenades in soldiers pocekts. During war, you can't trust many people. Its a simple as that. Look at Iraq, A woman with kids, as it seemed to be, but it turned out to be a suicide squad. Look at the guerrilla warfare, the army going through a town, and all of a sudden the whole village starts shooting at them. Who can you trust?

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 06:53 PM
True , Im not sayint that the army are all saints, but im just saying of what the other guys do to innoncent people for their own well being, for money. Vietnam is an example, were the soldiers wrong in doing SOME of that stuff? NO. I met a man who fought in Vietnam who told me that there were times when kids would go out to american soldiers and ask for candies, and they would stick their hands in the soldier's pockets. Well, a couple times kids actually put grenades in soldiers pocekts. During war, you can't trust many people. Its a simple as that. Look at Iraq, A woman with kids, as it seemed to be, but it turned out to be a suicide squad. Look at the guerrilla warfare, the army going through a town, and all of a sudden the whole village starts shooting at them. Who can you trust?
Guerrilla warfare is exactly what you said....and it's suppose to be like that...which is why it's called guerrilla warfare. If it was a normal military attack then it would be Urban warfare. But it's civilians with guns, guerrilla warfare.

Ok, sure that's great some Vet said they put grenades in the pockets of soldiers. But then those soldiers would take out a village for the simple fact that they help alot of rice and ammunition? Even if it was a storage point, they would just do the whole village and leave. No graves, nothing.

And it doesn't matter. You don't even have to be in the military to kill innocent people. Examples? Serial killers, mass murderers and to classic 'going postal'. Normal people who click and kill lots of other people. No reason except that they wanted too.

DeadMan.

[FarfromNear]

My point exactly, it is warfare. The reason I wrote that was because some people in this forum actually believe that Guerillas do not kill innocent people.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 14 2003, 11:10 PM
Hugo.

Was the MIR-Army of the Poor, responsible for the 1987 attempted assination of Chilean dictator General Pinochet?
dont know,anyway my father wasent at that time in chile,he was in sweden

When he was in the MIR group,Miguel Enriquez was the leader in the MIR.

[DeadMan]

Guerrillas DO kill innoncent people, but then yet again so those the opposing side. It is basically to install the fear of the group. They try and make you fear going against them. Most guerrillas try not to kill the innoncent, but sometimes things go bad. I'll grant you that but grant me this, you can't say that guerrillas are scum because they killed some cattle. You obviously weren't there so you wouldn't know why. Maybe the rancher was an avid supporter of the opposing military. Maybe he was a significant target of fear. Who knows, but you can't judge a book by it's cover and that is what you did here:


Speaking of guerrilla, did you hear the news about the guerrilla in Colombia? Apparently some group of guerrillas went into a ranch and they butchered over 200 cattle. They cut them with machetes and chopped at them and left them alive to bleed to death. The reason they did that was so that the Rancher could not sell his cattle. IT was basically against the rancher. I am not an animal rights activist by any means, but that is kind of cruel, and stupid. But youre right, the guerrillas are fun loving men who would never hurt an innocent soul.

I am not a animal rights activist either, and yah, sure, killing cattle isn't the best idea but guerrillas don't kill for fun, so they must of had a reason.

DeadMan.

[nezvanova]

Innocent people are always getting killed. Police kill innocent people, bank robbers kill innocent people, docters mess up and kill innocent people too! What's your point? There will always be casualties regardless of whats going on. If there's a war, innocent people will be killed. Do you think that innocent people aren't getting killed right now in Iraq and Afghanistan? Think about all the innocent people killed by the USA in order to maintain their "freedom". All their doing is ensuring that their capitalist government stays rich.

[el_profe]

Good at least some of you do admit guerrillas do sometimes kill innocent peole just like the military.

Edward norton on the other hand, said eveyrone the guerilla kills is not innocent? :o :o

[FarfromNear]

Yeah, there will always be casualities. But do the american soldiers in iraq go into villages and kill innoncent people, women and children. Guerillas use tactics of fear, where they kidnap innoncent people(tourists, businessmen), kill innoncent people, bomb infrastructures, attack villages, etc.

I am not judging a book by its cover, I am saying that guerillas do all that crap. A house 2 blocks from where I used to live was actually bombed by Guerrillas, the owner was kidnapped, and the security guard killed. Why did they kidnap this guy, because he was a reported for a newspaper, he probably wrote something on the guerillas. They tried to get to the newspaper and get money from the newpaper by getting him.

[pandora]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 07:04 PM
I am an american and I am moving to Oaxaca this January, which is bordering Chiapas, the main center of action for the EZLN.
Oaxaca itself is a strong area of support for the EZLN, depending on who you talk to. Hope you are having fun there, just being open and learning there is great. I found people in Oaxaca and Chiapas to be much more well versed in Revolutionary Praxis then people in the US.

Just living among people and being humble is an excellent way to get involved. As a foriegner people often come to you I find, once they know they can trust you, but they watch your actions carefully. Che knew this and made sure all his actions echoed his beliefs.

I did have a friend who fought with the Sandinistas in Nicarqua when her local boyfriend went over the hill to check on a hospital that had been bombed by US planes underthe Contras, and he didn't come back. That was a natural progression for her that happened organically, but she left eventually and let things take their own course, as is best for a foreigner.
It's a delicate question, the most helpful people I've known to spend time in Latin Amer from the US kept their politics on the down low.

[SittingBull47]

Originally posted by Edward [email protected] 7 2003, 06:42 PM
Unless your a poverty striken Latin American peasant, DON'T bother even trying to join any of the groups in the Americas. They would most likely consider you a spy of the CIA.

If you live in the First World, then join one of the urban guerilla networks in those countries:

Japan=Japanese Red Army (JRA)

Italy=Red Brigades (BR-PCC)
=July 20th Movement

Greece=November 17 (N17)
=Revolutionary Cells

Spain=Spanish Communist Party-Reconstitution (GRAPO)
yes, don't even bother trying to join Latin American Guerrilla movements. It's a nationalistic type thing. It's their revolution and they want it to be fought for Latin Am's, by Latin Am's.

[Kurai Tsuki]

I don't really know what to think about the Zapatistas. It seems like Marcos is more concerned about getting publicity and fame for their struggle than actually fighting.

[Nuxes]

I don't think a revolution is going to happen in Canada, and the physical environment has nothing to do with it. The polical environment must be right for a revolution to take hold. As Che said: "Where a government has come into power through some form of popular vote, fraudulent or not, and maintains at least an appearance of constitutional legality, the possibilities of peaceful struggle have not yet been exhausted" (Guerrilla Warfare pg.2).

[bunk]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 10:53 PM
I don't really know what to think about the Zapatistas. It seems like Marcos is more concerned about getting publicity and fame for their struggle than actually fighting.
Perhaps he is just waiting and in the meantime there getting popular with the normal people

[Kurai Tsuki]

Originally posted by crossfire+Mar 29 2004, 07:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (crossfire @ Mar 29 2004, 07:27 AM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 10:53 PM
I don&#39;t really know what to think about the Zapatistas. It seems like Marcos is more concerned about getting publicity and fame for their struggle than actually fighting.
Perhaps he is just waiting and in the meantime there getting popular with the normal people [/b]

Perhaps he is just waiting and in the meantime there getting popular with the normal people

Its been nearly a decade, how long is he gong to wait?

[pandora]

Actually the Schools in Chiapas project is being open about including people from the United States and other countries. One fun project which you could get involved in if it&#39;s still running is the Bicycle Project which builds and buys bicycles so that LOCAL PEOPLE learning leadership skills to help run cooperatives in their LOCAL communities can get to main areas and get around in the mountains, I&#39;ve taken buses through the mountains, they are expensive and dangerous, and don&#39;t go but on the main roads.
They have web sites in English and Spanish.

There are a lot of cooperative projects that include people from outside the community towards bringing in funding to sustain local efforts, coffee grinders for fair trade coffee, shade grown, weaving cooperatives, that would love to work with responsible people who are willing to gain support in their host countries to support the work.
So just cutting off the idea of international support of grassroots cooperatives is stupid&#33;

Che worked very hard to get trade traveling all over the world and meeting people, unfortunately he had little luck.

It&#39;s easier if you work with a community where you live to support a community elsewhere than it&#39;s a community helping a community and that creates networks of solidarity.

But I agree, do not think going to some community you will be it&#39;s leader, actually as I stated before, U.S. Americans in general are often naive on revolutionary praxis that sometimes people in other countries are raised on in principle, but you can support someone else as a leader.

Even mundane organizations like SEVA support leadership training for people in rural villages in Chiapas, what they train them in I don&#39;t know?
But often there are local cooperatives that would love support from friends

[Yazman]

Could we possibly get more information on non-American (north and south american) guerrilla organisations?

[Y2A]

Originally posted by el&#045;[email protected] 1 2003, 01:43 AM
I was just wondering... Have any of you ever actualy fought in latin america? And hows Marcos doing?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; &#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

:P :D :lol:























BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; 1

[El Tipo]

Im doing just fine. ;)