Are Jews a religion or a race or both ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

If Jews are a race why then do Jews who leave Judaism and or convert to other religions or have no religion they many of them no longer identify as Jews ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

[l'Enfermé]

The whole "Jew are a single ethnicity" thing basically originated in Germany in the 19th century, some Jewish intellectuals invented the myth to foster Jewish nationalism(their inspiration of course, was German nationalism).

For example, if you wanna trace some sort of strong ancestral link between today's Jews and the Jews that existed as an ethnicity in Palestine(like the ones that were supposedly expelled from Palestine, according to the Bible, though there's literally no literature that supports that this expulsion occurred), you'll find out that most of the Jews(the ethnic group, from the Bible) actually were assimilated by the people that conquered Palestine, i.e Muslim Arabs...so in reality, most of the descendents of the Jews from the Bible today are Muslims, and Palestinians have actually more Jewish blood than the Ashkenazim.

Jews, then, are a religious group primarily.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

OP, I would encourage you to read "The Jewish Question" by Abram Leon, a Belgian Trotskyist in the early twentieth century. His book provides a brief social history of the Jews since antiquity, with one of the later chapters dealing directly with the question of racism, and whether Jews constitute a distinct race of their own.

If you are able, I would get the book version off of Amazon. I don't know about you, but I don't especially like reading screens for very long. Otherwise, you can find it at the Marxists Dot Org site (can't post links yet, so this is the best I could do).

[hatzel]

If Jews are a race

Pretty big if there. Whilst secular post-haskalah types like to push that angle, the religious tend to be universally repulsed by the suggestion that the Jewish people could be built around anything other than a shared connection to Torah. Doing otherwise is capitulating to the 'goyish' ideologies of nationalism and racially-defined peoples. Actually Fredy Perlman did the same, commenting on the transformation of a religious community to an ethnic community, in order to push a (secular) nationalist agenda.

There was a thread about this subject in this very subforum just last week or something. No need for this thread, really, if you bothered to pay attention...

[Yugo45]

Of course they're not a race. What kind of nonsense is that. I never heard anyone claiming Jews are a seperate race from standard 4 races (Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid, Austroloid). Etchnicity or a nation, maybe, but race.. No way. Most Jews don't even have common origin.

[Leftsolidarity]

There was a thread about this subject in this very subforum just last week or something. No need for this thread, really, if you bothered to pay attention...

There was actually a very big thread about this a number of months ago I think. Someone should try to find that.

[Nox]

Jew is a word that can be used to describe someone who follows the Jewish religion, or it can be used to describe someone who is part of a Jewish ethnic group (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi etc), there are plenty of Jewish atheists, Jewish Christians, even Jewish Muslims out there.

[Fennec]

According to the Society for Humanitic Judaism, "a Jew is a person of Jewish descent or any person who declares himself or herself to be a Jew and who identifies with the history, ethical values, culture, civilization, community, and fate of the Jewish people."

[hatzel]

According to the Society for Humanitic Judaism, "a Jew is a person of Jewish descent or any person who declares himself or herself to be a Jew and who identifies with the history, ethical values, culture, civilization, community, and fate of the Jewish people."

I can see a glaring problem here. Given the blue...what does the red mean? Or given the red, what does the blue mean? If a Jew is defined by their identification with 'the history, ethical values, culture, civilisation, community and fate of the Jewish people' does being 'of Jewish descent' simply mean being the descendant of somebody who identified as such? And, in fact, surely somebody of Jewish descent calling themselves a Jew implies an identification with the Jewish people and all that comes with that; how could we say that somebody who doesn't call themselves a Jew is a Jew simply because somebody up their family tree called themselves a Jew? And, in fact, how could they be of any relevance to SHJ? Choosing engage with that organisation as a Jew surely means that one belongs to the blue category, and those who don't would see no reason to get involved with SHJ.

What I'm getting at here is that the red bit is either superfluous or bullcrap but the blue bit might not be so bad.

(And @Leftsolidarity perhaps the thread you were talking about was this one (http://www.revleft.com/vb/jewish-race-religioni-t163350/index.html?t=163350). I said some pretty cool stuff there! :lol:)

[9]

Nobody actually knows, tbh.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

standard 4 races (Caucasian, Negroid, Mongoloid, Austroloid).
All humans are classified as Homo sapiens sapiens. So-called "races" have no taxonomic significance.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Jews are a group of closely related ethnic groups with a common religion, which has traditionally defined a Jew as anyone born to a Jewish mother.

[Red Rabbit]

If you adhere to Judaism, then you are a Jew, of course. However, the whole "Jewish race" thing has always confused me.

Wouldn't a decedent of Israel just be called a Israelite? Or am I missing something? I'm sorry, I haven't really read much on Jewish history, although I would like to eventually.

[Fennec]

I can see a glaring problem here. Given the blue...what does the red mean? Or given the red, what does the blue mean? If a Jew is defined by their identification with 'the history, ethical values, culture, civilisation, community and fate of the Jewish people' does being 'of Jewish descent' simply mean being the descendant of somebody who identified as such? And, in fact, surely somebody of Jewish descent calling themselves a Jew implies an identification with the Jewish people and all that comes with that; how could we say that somebody who doesn't call themselves a Jew is a Jew simply because somebody up their family tree called themselves a Jew? And, in fact, how could they be of any relevance to SHJ? Choosing engage with that organisation as a Jew surely means that one belongs to the blue category, and those who don't would see no reason to get involved with SHJ.

What I'm getting at here is that the red bit is either superfluous or bullcrap but the blue bit might not be so bad.


IMO, blue is the best definition. Jewish descent means that one's ancestors converted to Judaism.

[Lilith]

Judaism is not a race.

[Manifesto]

It's a religion, nothing more. The race shit is just for Zionists to further their agenda or Nazis to call them inferior.

[RedAnarchist]

Whilst there are ethnic groups called Ashkenazi (Northern/Central/Eastern European Jewish), Mizrahi (North African/Middle Eastern/Caucasian Jewish) and Sephardic (Southwestern/Southern European Jewish) people, there is no one "Jewish ethnic group" and religious Jews aren't all from the aforementioned ethnic groups (I think there are others, but those three are the main groups).

There's no reason to connect modern day Jewish to the ancient Israelites, and certainly no reason to force Palestinians out of much of Palestine and enforce an apartheid state.

[bricolage]

It's a religion, nothing more. The race shit is just for Zionists to further their agenda or Nazis to call them inferior.
i'm pretty sure the idea of being jewish as something other than simply believing in the jewish religion existed far before either nazism or zionism.

[Zav]

Jews are followers of Judaism. That is all. They are not a 'race' because there are no races.

[Manifesto]

i'm pretty sure the idea of being jewish as something other than simply believing in the jewish religion existed far before either nazism or zionism.
You would think but no.

[Bostana]

I dunno maybe the Hebrew people as a race maybe

But people shouldn't obsess over race

[MarxSchmarx]

There's no reason to connect modern day Jewish to the ancient Israelites

There actually is quite a bit of genetic evidence to support the theory that at least Ashkenazi jews are indeed of middle eastern descent, tho:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Male_lineages:_Y-chromosomal_DNA



"Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."suggesting they are quite likely to some degree genetically distinct the way, say, traditionally recognized ethnic groups like Koreans or southern Italians are genetically distinct. I don't know if this is true of Jews in say SubSaharan Africa or south and east Asia.

That of course doesn't mean they were from the particular geographic region we today call Israel/Palestine, but it does suggest that the genetic evidence is consistent with the claim that the Ashkenazi came from somewhere in the mid-east, including present day Israel/Palestine.

And in addition to this there is a religious dimension to judaism and people routinely convert to Judaism for all sorts of reasons, including the supposedly happiest man in America:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1364036/The-happiest-man-America-Alvin-Wong-Chinese-American-Jew-Hawaii.html

So I think the evidence is clearly pointing to the fact that Judaism and the designation of being Jewish is both a religion and a race.

[hatzel]

It's a religion, nothing more. The race shit is just for Zionists to further their agenda or Nazis to call them inferior.


i'm pretty sure the idea of being jewish as something other than simply believing in the jewish religion existed far before either nazism or zionism.


You would think but no.

From the Talmud (which, incidentally, predates both Nazism and Zionism by quite a while):


Israel hath sinned. R. Abba b. Zabda said: Even though [the people] have sinned, they are still [called] 'Israel'. R. Abba said: Thus people say, A myrtle, though it stands among reeds, is still a myrtle, and it is so called.

Yea, they have even transgressed my covenant which I have commanded them, yea, they have even taken of the devoted thing and have also stolen [it], and dissembled also, and they have even put it amongst their own stuff. R. Ile'a said on behalf of R. Judah b. Masparta: This teaches that Achan transgressed the five books of the Torah, [for the word 'gam' is written there five times].That is to say, a Jew who abandons (fundamental tenants of) Judaism remains a Jew. As those in the Biblical narrative, in the (Northern) Kingdom of Israel, who turned to idolatrous practices and the worship of Ba'al, remained 'Israel,' despite their non-adherence to Judaism.

That doesn't imply anything to do with 'race,' though - and I explained in the thread that I linked to a few posts up why the appellation of 'race' (or 'ethnicity' or any other such term) is wholly unsuitable, - but it certainly challenges the suggestion that it is simply a matter or believing a certain religion or not. On the other hand, I know many Torah-adherent Jews who would argue that the concept of 'religion' - and Judaism as a religion - has no precedent in Jewish thought, but is an external imposition. Perhaps, just perhaps...it's neither a religion nor a race/ethnicity/whatever? Maaaaaybe the concepts established by European colonialist types in like the 17th century or something aren't inherently applicable to non-European non-17th century peoples? Perhaps people understand themselves in ways that don't fit into the neat little boxes defined by Europeans over the last few centuries? That's a possibility...

[SpiritiualMarxist]

They're can be considered an ethnicity, but not a race in conventional terms. And obviously its a religion also.

Race is a political term. Ethnicity is actually based in observable characteristics which may or may not include cultural and linguistic features depending on who you ask. If people are at all interested in studying anthropology, its useful to understand this stuff. It doesn't have to be used for racist crap.

[Rafiq]

If the Jews are just a religious group, how do the people asserting such explain the Yiddish language?

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[BE_]

They can be both. Many Jews, even if they are not practicing religiously, like to say they are Jews because of the persecution their people have experienced. They want the Jewish culture to stay alive because almost every where they went, they were on the risk of being killed or pushed out by evil governments because they were not christian.

[l'Enfermé]

If the Jews are just a religious group, how do the people asserting such explain the Yiddish language?

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Yiddish is a Germanic language with a Hebrew script, are Ashkenzi Jews then a Germanic race?

[GallowsBird]

If the Jews are just a religious group, how do the people asserting such explain the Yiddish language?

Yiddish is a Germanic language, specifically High German, with some Slavic substratum (which is common in various Germanic languages or dialects in Eastern Germany where many Slavic groups were assimilated (see Pomeranian which is a Low German/Saxon language but with a similarly Slavic substratum). The most common script for the language is Hebraic in the same way Western Christians wrote their languages in Latin and Eastern Christians in Cyrillic scripts; it should be noted literacy was connected with the religious establishment traditionally. It is, however, also commonly written in a Latin script in more modern times.

Actually the lack of any recognisably Semitic subtratal features actually goes against the nonsensical idea of a Jewish ethnic group or "race" descended mostly from Hebrew settlers. There are only a few loan words from Hebrew (as well as Greek and German) mostly associated with the Jewish religion (in the same way there are many Latin words in English associated with Christianity).

*If*, say, the Ashkenazim (to use a Hebrew name of a group that was more commonly called by a variety of names in their native laguages i.e. "Jüden" in German and later "Yidn" in Yiddish) are there own ethnic group then they are a specifically Central-Eastern European and Central Asian ethnic group. Even this idea of an Ashkenazi group is relatively modern idea as the many Jewish groups in various countries had their own customs, traditions and languages (Yiddish being a common religious language however and being a first language in many communities). An "Ostjude" from Chernigov is not at all the same as a "Yekke" from Cologne, even though they have shared cultural mores, especially religious ones.

It is even more ridiculous to claim Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Mizrahim are the same ethnic group! It is ridiculous to claim Sephardim and Mizrahim as singular groups legitimately exist as they are even more diverse.

And no amount of Israeli sponsored genetic research will change the fact that the notion of a Jewish race or singular ethnic group exists; it is a grouping of religious communities whose faith is from a singular source (aka the faith that was according to myth spread by Abraham and following the laws of Moses) and now an identity group (not unlike the Christian identity movement).

Of course there will, as there always is, be a big argument with supports of these ideas (that are really just formulated and spread originally by Zionists and Anti-Semites (with different goals in mind), ironically, during the era of Romantic Nationalism in the late 19th century) calling those who disagree with them Anti-Semites (which is ironic as the most virulent Anti-Jewish regimes in history believed striongly in the idea of a Jewish race; the Palestinians are actual Semites and I don't think most Jews are Semites but Slavs, Germans, Turks et cetera).


I think these posts I made earlier show most of my views on the matter (they are long so I won't quote them and just link to them):

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2338757&postcount=12

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2339853&postcount=15

[Tukhachevsky]

In this thread, butthurt people who try to deny legitimacy to Jews even as an ethnicity.

"they are not the descendants of the true and original israelites"
"lol, damn sponsored geneticists with their conspiracy proving my amateurish conclusions wrong"
"jew as an ethnicity was invented in 19th germany"

[l'Enfermé]

From the Talmud (which, incidentally, predates both Nazism and Zionism by quite a while):

That is to say, a Jew who abandons (fundamental tenants of) Judaism remains a Jew. As those in the Biblical narrative, in the (Northern) Kingdom of Israel, who turned to idolatrous practices and the worship of Ba'al, remained 'Israel,' despite their non-adherence to Judaism.

That doesn't imply anything to do with 'race,' though - and I explained in the thread that I linked to a few posts up why the appellation of 'race' (or 'ethnicity' or any other such term) is wholly unsuitable, - but it certainly challenges the suggestion that it is simply a matter or believing a certain religion or not. On the other hand, I know many Torah-adherent Jews who would argue that the concept of 'religion' - and Judaism as a religion - has no precedent in Jewish thought, but is an external imposition. Perhaps, just perhaps...it's neither a religion nor a race/ethnicity/whatever? Maaaaaybe the concepts established by European colonialist types in like the 17th century or something aren't inherently applicable to non-European non-17th century peoples? Perhaps people understand themselves in ways that don't fit into the neat little boxes defined by Europeans over the last few centuries? That's a possibility...
Well I do take some objection with labeling Jews as a non-European people...Jews have been living longer in Europe than most of the descendents of Iberians, Frenchmen, Englishmen or any of the Slavs. The Hungarians, for example, have migrated to Europe rather recently, in the 10th or 9th century, are easily considered to be "European", but Jews who have been living in Europe since before Julius Caesar and Augustus can't?

[hatzel]

The Babylonian Talmud (which I cited) is so called because it was written in Babylon. Which is notable for not being in Europe. So yeah, pretty much...

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

There IS no different race alive today other than the human race.

[GallowsBird]

In this thread, butthurt people who try to deny legitimacy to Jews even as an ethnicity.

No it where some (such as I) speak out against racist propaganda that is so absurd it is ridiculous. Jews can have legitimacy without being a single ethnic group or, worse, "race" (there is only one human race alive today... the Neanderthals having been dead for a great length of time). One does not even need to be pro-"Jewish" (whatever that entails) to believe that Jews are a single "race" or ethnic group; a certain party that ruled a Central European country in part of the 20th century believed such nonsense and they were violently anti-Jewish.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

There IS no different race alive today other than the human race.

Animals?

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Animals?

No. Any various animals within a common range of 4% DNA compound are connsidered the same species, and anything from 4% to 14% is considered the same race, anything above that is considered a whole different animal; that's if I paid attention in biology...

[Igor]

Yiddish is a Germanic language with a Hebrew script, are Ashkenzi Jews then a Germanic race?

Many Jamaicans speak English as their first language, are they Anglo-Saxon? Is a native American speaking only Spanish of Spanish origin? What language family your language belongs to is absolutely irrelevant, because languages change a lot easier than ethnicity does.

[Misanthrope]

Bickering over the social view of groups of people does nothing more than propel racist justifications and other nonsensical bs that shouldn't be addressed. Marxians do not stray from Marxian class analysis.

[Qavvik]

We are all human members of a human race, so the question at hand is irrelevant in the long run.

But, if you must ask, the majority of Jews can trace themselves back to a long line of European converts that had been brought into the religion by the relatively ancient Jewish ethnic group.

[LeftAbove]

We are all human members of a human race, so the question at hand is irrelevant in the long run.

But, if you must ask, the majority of Jews can trace themselves back to a long line of European converts that had been brought into the religion by the relatively ancient Jewish ethnic group.

There isn't a human "race." It's a species, Homo sapien to be exact. So the correct term is human species.
There's a theory that Jews descended from Khazars, an empire that converted to Judaism. There's a whole book written about it called the Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler. However I look at both sides and I also see sources that say Jews share traits similar to those inhabiting the Middle East and Kurdish lands.

But we shouldn't be concentrating on race right now. You are correct, race is irreverent to worker's plight.

[LOLseph Stalin]

If you're referring to the hebrews then yes, one could argue they're a distinct ethnic group. However, judaism has become pretty widespread and you'll find jews pretty much everywhere in the world. These are likely just groups that converted generations back since hebrews are supposed to be one ethnic group with one group of distinct characteristics(just like any ethnic group) while today's jews are some of the most ethnically diverse people in the world.

With that said, groups such as Ashkenazis may not have Hebrew blood, thus their Jewish identity would be purely religious.

[Commiekirby]

Racial Group? Of course not. Now mixed Cultural Group descendents of the Kingdom of Judea, yes. I've heard this question quite often but like to interpret it in the manner of their being a faith and people since I don't see what people deem "races." (Ergo, Caucasian.)

[GallowsBird]

Many Jamaicans speak English as their first language, are they Anglo-Saxon? Is a native American speaking only Spanish of Spanish origin? What language family your language belongs to is absolutely irrelevant, because languages change a lot easier than ethnicity does.

There is a difference between being educated in reasonably modern fashion by very literate speakers of a language and being apparently taught a language so well that there is no trace of the previous language on the syntax by a barely literate society such as that of the Early Mediavel Germans, Slavs or Turkic peoples. Also you'd notice that in the Spanish of, say Mexico, there are many subtratal features from native languages; the same goes for English as spoken in places like Jamaica, India or Nigeria and even Ireland where even though the populace were taught using fairly modern methods in classrooms we can see that they are from non-native English speaking by the differences in the subtrata (syntax etc) of said dialects (and lets not forget all the creoles in those regions). Yiddish, for instance, does not have a Hebrew syntax, Eastern Yiddish however has a Slavic one (as do many varieties of High and Low German in the east).

[Comrade Trollface]

The Jewish People is an ethnic group. Judaism is a religion. The religion encapsulates a very important part of the cultural traditions of the ethnic group. The Jews have at times been construed to be a 'race' and at others not. But 'race' is a very relative category.

Under the currently dominant racial paradigm in the US, the Jewish People contains members of just about every race imaginable.