"White" Issues

[The Machine]

A subtle thing I've noticed on the left is that certain forms of racism or racial intolerance, if you want to be more technical, are brushed under the rug. One thing I've seen that's bothered me is black activists dismissing things as white issues. I've seen anything from atheism, privacy and personal liberty issues to gay rights has been dismissed as "white".

What bothers me the most is that these issues affect non white people just as much. The black church is just as, if not more reactionary than it's white counterparts, and black atheists are even more alienated that white ones. If it wasn't for wiretapping maybe so many Black Panthers wouldn't have been murdered by the police or be in jail forever. And I shouldn't have to explain why everyone should care about gay rights.

Leftists are quick to brush this stuff under the rug because it's not "White Supremacy" or "Systematic Racism". But on a deeper level it plays right into systematic racism and is an extension of it.

[Prometeo liberado]

Can you give some examples or links to threads where this has happened?

[The Machine]

Go to any thread on atheism.

[Prometeo liberado]

It's youre thread. Why should I have to do all the legwork?

[The Machine]

Cause I'm lazy?

[Franz Fanonipants]

i mean i guess it's fair but "radical atheists" beyond being "white" are more importantly liberals who worship ideals to the point that they've hitched their wagon to the idea of disbelief over material analysis

atheism on its own, as disbelief is not a Thing, its only until it is combined with a political or social praxis that it becomes a Thing

so you have vocal right libertarians that are atheists and you have marxists that are atheists, do they have anything in common?

nope. except for their disbelief which really means nothing.

e: so what you are asking us is why is a site that's ostensibly made up of Marxists not more preoccupied with liberal concerns

e of e: gay rights obvs. are of very real, material concern but rights in general are whatever the bourgeoisie deign to extend

[Prometeo liberado]

Cause I'm lazy?

You got me there.

[Leftsolidarity]

e: so what you are asking us is why is a site that's ostensibly made up of Marxists not more preoccupied with liberal concerns


Struggle against the Church as an institution is not just a liberal concern.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Struggle against the Church as an institution is not just a liberal concern.

ironically as a catholic i agree

almost like your belief or disbelief in something that is clearly not of THIS world really doesn't mean shit. still.

[The Machine]

i i guess it's fair but "radical atheists" beyond being "white" are more importantly who ideals to the point that they've hitched their wagon to the idea of disbelief over material analysis

atheism on its own, as disbelief is not a Thing, its only until it is combined with a or social praxis that it becomes a Thing

so you have vocal right libertarians that are atheists and you have marxists that are atheists, do they have anything in common?

nope. except for their disbelief which really means nothing.

e: so what you are asking us is why is a site that's ostensibly made up of Marxists not more preoccupied with concerns

e of e: rights obvs. are of very real, material concern but rights in general are whatever the bourgeoisie deign to extend

If you want to debate atheism we can take it to one of the other threads. My radical atheism is essentially an extension of materialism. I'm against religious institutions because historically they've almost always been forces of reaction. I guess the fact that I find religion and superstitious beliefs to be illogical isn't really a political position, and although I generally agree with Richard Dawkin's criticism of religion it's the institution that is relevant politically and not the ideas. I just find the ideas stupid on a personal level.
But anyways I'm not sure how you can say the oppression of gay people is material (I just used the term gay rights because it's what people generally say, I agree with you on rights), but the alienation of atheists and not giving the pigs more tools to fuck with us aren't. Regardless this entire discussion isnt really related to the op but I guess it's interesting so w/e.

[Leftsolidarity]

A subtle thing I've noticed on the left is that certain forms of racism or racial intolerance, if you want to be more technical, are brushed under the rug. One thing I've seen that's bothered me is black activists dismissing things as white issues. I've seen anything from atheism, privacy and personal liberty issues to gay rights has been dismissed as "white".

What bothers me the most is that these issues affect non white people just as much. The black church is just as, if not more reactionary than it's white counterparts, and black atheists are even more alienated that white ones. If it wasn't for wiretapping maybe so many Black Panthers wouldn't have been murdered by the police or be in jail forever. And I shouldn't have to explain why everyone should care about gay rights.

Leftists are quick to brush this stuff under the rug because it's not "White Supremacy" or "Systematic Racism". But on a deeper level it plays right into systematic racism and is an extension of it.

I guess you'll have to talk to those black activists if you have a problem with them.

[Franz Fanonipants]

But anyways I'm not sure how you can say the oppression of gay people is material (I just used the term gay rights because it's what people generally say, I agree with you on rights), but the alienation of atheists and not giving the pigs more tools to fuck with us aren't.

lgbt oppression is pretty much only really possible via economics and violence

whereas atheist oppression is lol

and the pigs are going to fuck with us no matter what

all you're really asking is why revleft is not huffpo and honestly if the answer i've given you isn't enough idk

[Leftsolidarity]

whereas atheist oppression is lol



yeah........ you want to tell me why that is "lol"?

[Franz Fanonipants]

yeah........ you want to tell me why that is "lol"?

because it doesn't exist

until atheists are beneficiaries of food stamps/TANF/WIC programs in an disproportionate number, inmates in jail in a disproportionate number, and suffer as a community from health complications in a disproportionate number specific to an anti-atheist bias in the partitioning of lands atheist oppression is nothing like racial/gender/glbt oppression

[The Machine]

whereas atheist oppression is lol

nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashion/african-american-atheists.html?pagewanted=all

^^^ Pretty much Kevin Hart type stuff right there.

"and the pigs are going to fuck with us no matter what"

Well yeah but its a lot harder for them to do it when they have to deal with a bunch of bureaucrats and red tape.

"all you're really asking is why revleft is not huffpo and honestly if the answer i've given you isn't enough idk"

Motherfucker you're not my father you can't pull that shit. And really trying to make this a debate about liberalism or w/e when it really has nothing to do with the actual point of the OP is derailing the hell out of this thread, probably because of your own bigotry.

[The Machine]

because it doesn't exist

until atheists are beneficiaries of food stamps/TANF/WIC programs in an disproportionate number, inmates in jail in a disproportionate number, and suffer as a community from health complications in a disproportionate number specific to an anti-atheist bias in the partitioning of lands atheist oppression is nothing like racial/gender/glbt oppression

None of this really relates to gay people either, I guess homophobia isn't a "Thing"? Does antisemitism not exist?

[Franz Fanonipants]

None of this really relates to gay people either, I guess homophobia isn't a "Thing"? Does antisemitism not exist?

being a black lesbian is pretty much the worst demographic to be in povertywise so welp

[Franz Fanonipants]

Motherfucker you're not my father you can't pull that shit. And really trying to make this a debate about liberalism or w/e when it really has nothing to do with the actual point of the OP is derailing the hell out of this thread, probably because of your own bigotry.

nah fool the thing is NO ONE says "that's white" about the things you've talked about

we do say "that's liberal"

or maybe its just me but you know what i mean

[Franz Fanonipants]

nytimes.com/2011/11/27/fashion/african-american-atheists.html?pagewanted=all

^^^ Pretty much Kevin Hart type stuff right there.

also lol humanism

e: "Given the cultural pull toward religion, less than one-half of a percent of African-Americans identify themselves as atheists, compared with 1.6 percent of the total population, according to Pew. Black atheists, then, find they are a minority within a minority."

i mean i don't think black atheists should be fucked with but then again i would have to be real fucking skeptical of how present the oppression of black atheists is considering their numbers

[zonmoy]

i mean i guess it's fair but "radical atheists" beyond being "white" are more importantly liberals who worship ideals to the point that they've hitched their wagon to the idea of disbelief over material analysis

atheism on its own, as disbelief is not a Thing, its only until it is combined with a political or social praxis that it becomes a Thing

so you have vocal right libertarians that are atheists and you have marxists that are atheists, do they have anything in common?

nope. except for their disbelief which really means nothing.

e: so what you are asking us is why is a site that's ostensibly made up of Marxists not more preoccupied with liberal concerns

e of e: gay rights obvs. are of very real, material concern but rights in general are whatever the bourgeoisie deign to extend

you ever been in a very religious area, particularly going to a school in such an area as an atheist or other religious minority. the amount of abuse by the so called majority religion in many places to students of other religions should shock you.

[zonmoy]

because it doesn't exist

until atheists are beneficiaries of food stamps/TANF/WIC programs in an disproportionate number, inmates in jail in a disproportionate number, and suffer as a community from health complications in a disproportionate number specific to an anti-atheist bias in the partitioning of lands atheist oppression is nothing like racial/gender/glbt oppression

your describing christians in our nation to a T.

[Franz Fanonipants]

you ever been in a very religious area, particularly going to a school in such an area as an atheist or other religious minority. the amount of abuse by the so called majority religion in many places to students of other religions should shock you.

nope

i come from a place so catholic that you don't even need a calendar to tell you it's ash wednesday

i don't give the FIRST fuck about "atheist oppression" because it doesn't fucking exist

[Franz Fanonipants]

your describing christians in our nation to a T.

you're right. most blacks and latinos are christians.

[zonmoy]

nope

i come from a place so catholic that you don't even need a calendar to tell you it's ash wednesday

i don't give the FIRST fuck about "atheist oppression" because it doesn't fucking exist

now imagine having had to move to a place where the whole area was pentecostal and they tried to force you to have a prayer in school that called Catholics idolators. pretty much what happens to atheists and other non Christians whenever public prayer is in school, and then include the bullying that happens in schools that is usually pointed at religious minorities in such communities. something that atheists, gays, and other religious minorities have had to deal with from the christian right and other religious groups in schools.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

nope

i come from a place so catholic that you don't even need a calendar to tell you it's ash wednesday

i don't give the FIRST fuck about "atheist oppression" because it doesn't fucking exist

It is largely true that "repression" of Atheists is quite minimal. However, there are certainly cases in history where a religious institution under threat has lashed out at perceived Atheists. The following is a good example-
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131335/
It was also true that any open Atheist during the medieval era would have been accused of Heresy and burned at the stake without a recantation.

I would agree however that the so-called "repression" of Atheists is minimal compared to the repression of religious minorities and general sectarian violence. A Muslim is much more likely to be killed in Southern California or an Evangelical in Sudan for their religion than an Atheist in either place.

[Franz Fanonipants]

yeah but even like the incident in canoa is pretty clearly a class struggle thing way more than it was about anyone's atheism

[Leftsolidarity]

I think you just got a stick up your ass about athiests.

No one is saying that we are tortured at the stake or we face shit that the black community faces. We are just saying that it does exist and you come off like an asshole for laughing about it.

[The Machine]

Franz is just trying to turn this thread into the Oppression Olympics. I guess just because other groups face more oppression bigotry against atheists is AOK. So what is some Mexican kid gets disowned by his mom cause he doesn't want to go to Mass anymore? Atheism is some white boy shit and you're a liberal for even caring.
Franz you're doing a really shitty job of backing up your arguments. I guess homophobia against white people and nonwhite men isn't a thing? Antisemitism is pretty "lol"? You're just pulling a bunch of arbitrary criteria out the ass at this point. Aren't you one of the privilege theory guys? Well guess what big dawg you're just showing your "Christian Privilege" and maybe you should shut the fuck up and not talk about what you don't know. That one sure backfired on you huh.

[¿Que?]

The way I see it, is this. Atheism is some white shit. The reason being, though, makes sense and it starts with the concept of epistemology. Epistemology, you see, is a particular theory of knowledge. The modern world operates under a vastly different epistemology than in previous times. To say this, I mean in that the way people generally explain things, the explanations they rely on, are based on a different conception of what knowledge is. What is mostly understood as knowledge is based on an epistemology developed during in the enlightenment, by a bunch of white Europeans.

Now you might want to make the argument, "what about verifiability, reliability, and those things?" Well, those things represent evidence, but only under a particular theory of knowledge. And therein lies the problem.

How do you justify a particular epistemology (theory of knowledge) without adopting one first?

Now this is a seriously relativist argument, and it bears to note that I'm not 100% sure about some of these ideas. But it is a pretty strong argument for relativism...

[Jimmie Higgins]

A subtle thing I've noticed on the left is that certain forms of racism or racial intolerance, if you want to be more technical, are brushed under the rug. One thing I've seen that's bothered me is black activists dismissing things as white issues. I've seen anything from atheism, privacy and personal liberty issues to gay rights has been dismissed as "white".

...
If it wasn't for wiretapping maybe so many Black Panthers wouldn't have been murdered by the police or be in jail forever. And I shouldn't have to explain why everyone should care about gay rights.

Leftists are quick to brush this stuff under the rug because it's not "White Supremacy" or "Systematic Racism". But on a deeper level it plays right into systematic racism and is an extension of it.

Well if activists are saying this, yes it is a divisive and nationalist approach to viewing different struggles. It certainty isn't Racism by any means though.

Essentially what I'd imagine anyone making comments like this means is that these are issues that, in their view, are not a fundamental priority and they see these struggles as not having an impact on fighting black oppression. I would agree with this attitude on an issue like atheism, though not on gay rights and not on such racially divisive grounds.


What bothers me the most is that these issues affect non white people just as much. The black church is just as, if not more reactionary than it's white counterparts, and black atheists are even more alienated that white ones. The role of the black church - particularly in poor cities and communities - certainty is something that revolutionaries will have to deal with. But is the role of the black church primarily the result of scripture and religious belief, or is it that the church plays a role in the community of funneling class and ethnic anger towards liberal or sometimes petty-bourgeois nationalist directions? I think it's the politics that are the issue and not the magical ideas.

So right now in a practical sense, with radicals usually being the minority of activists, when there are protests against police brutality or murder, then the local black activist churches will most definitely be involved if not the primary organizers. I think how people deal with that would have to be on a similar basis to dealing with NAACP or some other liberal organization.

When radical politics and organizations are more rooted in black communities in an organic way then the way I think radicals could deal with the liberal church influence is by building counter-movements, contrasting militant tactics and neighborhood organizing to the candle-light vigils and citizen oversight committees favored by church reformers.

Of course this doesn't just go for the black church this also goes for other community-rooted socially active churches. Catholic churches have long played a similar role in catholic ethnic neighborhoods; then there's the Quakers and Unitarians and so on too.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I think you just got a stick up your ass about athiests.

No one is saying that we are tortured at the stake or we face shit that the black community faces. We are just saying that it does exist and you come off like an asshole for laughing about it.

you come off like an asshole for continuing to be asshurt over a form of oppression that is nonexistent

[Franz Fanonipants]

Franz is just trying to turn this thread into the Oppression Olympics. I guess just because other groups face more oppression bigotry against atheists is AOK. So what is some Mexican kid gets disowned by his mom cause he doesn't want to go to Mass anymore? Atheism is some white boy shit and you're a liberal for even caring.
Franz you're doing a really shitty job of backing up your arguments. I guess homophobia against white people and nonwhite men isn't a thing? Antisemitism is pretty "lol"? You're just pulling a bunch of arbitrary criteria out the ass at this point. Aren't you one of the privilege theory guys? Well guess what big dawg you're just showing your "Christian Privilege" and maybe you should shut the fuck up and not talk about what you don't know. That one sure backfired on you huh.

no one really cares about the conclusions you've drawn to your own one man show

[Leftsolidarity]

you come off like an asshole for continuing to be asshurt over a form of oppression that is nonexistent

I'm not "asshurt". I don't really give a shit about religions and I never discuss it. It's just foolish to think that atheists don't face a form of oppression, while maybe not severe.

Could you post more than 1 liners please? I'm surprised you haven't been infracted or anything for how many one liners you post. It's the majority of your posts that are one liners or just insults.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I'm not "asshurt". I don't really give a shit about religions and I never discuss it. It's just foolish to think that atheists don't face a form of oppression, while maybe not severe.

Could you post more than 1 liners please? I'm surprised you haven't been infracted or anything for how many one liners you post. It's the majority of your posts that are one liners or just insults.

when i characterized the ways in which atheists aren't oppressed no motherfucker responded to me in a constructive way.

you do not fear economic oppression. you do not fear anything other than social unpopularity, yet, you maintain that you can be oppressed. this is not oppression.

in fact, comrades who are atheist like ?que? and jimmie higgins (i think both are atheists) have both pointed out that your persistence in wanting to be persecuted for nonbelief IS in fact counterrevolutionary and a waste of time.

[Leftsolidarity]

when i characterized the ways in which atheists aren't oppressed no motherfucker responded to me in a constructive way.



You said "atheist oppression is lol". Hardly a constructive post.



you do not fear economic oppression. you do not fear anything other than social unpopularity, yet, you maintain that you can be oppressed. this is not oppression.



I agree, athiests don't really face economic oppression but is that the only way to be oppressed? Are you forgetting the ways the LGBT community is socially oppressed? Or does that not exist either?


in fact, comrades who are atheist like ?que? and jimmie higgins (i think both are atheists) have both pointed out that your persistence in wanting to be persecuted for nonbelief IS in fact counterrevolutionary and a waste of time.

When did they point that out? I agree with them. I never said it was even a big deal but you just refused to acknowledge it even exists.

[Franz Fanonipants]

a post

you literally didn't actually read the thread, did you

[Manic Impressive]

you come off like an asshole for continuing to be asshurt over a form of oppression that is nonexistent
Wasn't it concluded that asshurt/butthurt was homophobic?

Why haven't you been banned yet?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The way I see it, is this. Atheism is some white shit. The reason being, though, makes sense and it starts with the concept of epistemology. Epistemology, you see, is a particular theory of knowledge. The modern world operates under a vastly different epistemology than in previous times. To say this, I mean in that the way people generally explain things, the explanations they rely on, are based on a different conception of what knowledge is. What is mostly understood as knowledge is based on an epistemology developed during in the enlightenment, by a bunch of white Europeans.

Now you might want to make the argument, "what about verifiability, reliability, and those things?" Well, those things represent evidence, but only under a particular theory of knowledge. And therein lies the problem.

How do you justify a particular epistemology (theory of knowledge) without adopting one first?

Now this is a seriously relativist argument, and it bears to note that I'm not 100% sure about some of these ideas. But it is a pretty strong argument for relativism...

I mostly agree with you regarding the European and Enlightenment origins of modern Atheism, but there were pre-enlightenment Atheists and in different countries. Indian philosophical texts refer to an atheist materialist philosophical viewpoint which was skeptical of the claims of other Indian religions. Atheism arises as a form of skepticism about religious claims in many places.

What I would say is that the modern dogma which people call Atheism is a particular Materialist philosophy which, as you say, came out of the enlightenment. Certainly, there has arisen a certain kind of "Scientific" and materialist atheism which tries to make metaphysical claims based on modern physics and biology. Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens managed to sell a lot of books about it.

As for the issue of relativism and the epistemological basis of religion-Atheism works as a form of skepticism of religious beliefs, but it fails as soon as it tries to make positive metaphysical arguments that God does not exist. It is also fallacious to think that the reasoning done by Atheists against certain dogmatic interpretations of Abrahamic religion also invalidates every other religious claim.


yeah but even like the incident in canoa is pretty clearly a class struggle thing way more than it was about anyone's atheism

This is true, but this raises the interesting question about how religious authority can be misused by class rulers. The issue of religious identity can be utilized to preserve class rule, and in that particular context Atheists, as much as any other religious group, can get caught up.


Wasn't it concluded that asshurt/butthurt was homophobic?

Why haven't you been banned yet?

Well, to be fair to Franz, straight people commit sodomy too, and it's not unheard of for men to be of the "receiving end" of straight sodomy. Perhaps it refers to Richard Gere's gerbil bites.

I know I would be careful using that term myself though.


Franz is just trying to turn this thread into the Oppression Olympics. I guess just because other groups face more oppression bigotry against atheists is AOK. So what is some Mexican kid gets disowned by his mom cause he doesn't want to go to Mass anymore? Atheism is some white boy shit and you're a liberal for even caring.
Franz you're doing a really shitty job of backing up your arguments. I guess homophobia against white people and nonwhite men isn't a thing? Antisemitism is pretty "lol"? You're just pulling a bunch of arbitrary criteria out the ass at this point. Aren't you one of the privilege theory guys? Well guess what big dawg you're just showing your "Christian Privilege" and maybe you should shut the fuck up and not talk about what you don't know. That one sure backfired on you huh.

Any "Christian Privilege" is something which represses non-Christian religious people as much if not much more than repression of Atheists. Do you think "a Mexican kid" is getting disowned by his mom for being an Atheist, or simply for not being a Catholic? Do you think she would be happier if he converted to Protestantism, Islam or some pre-Colombian shamanism than if he became an Atheist?

In other words, the issue is repression of non-believers, which is a problem which effects people of every religion, not just Atheists. And Atheists can be guilty of that too. In China, one cannot get a job in the upper echelons of the government unless you are an Atheist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Wasn't it concluded that asshurt/butthurt was homophobic?

Why haven't you been banned yet?

report me fucker

[The Machine]

no one really cares about the conclusions you've drawn to your own one show

I see you trolling cabron

Is antisemitism a thing?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Is antisemitism a thing?

it can be. but it sure has had way more of a weight historically than *snicker* *giggle* anti-atheism

[black magick hustla]

i dont accept all "epstimelogies" are valid. wanna troll white ppl by stating mathematics is white then aight but you sound like a clown

[Franz Fanonipants]

i dont accept all "epstimelogies" are valid. wanna troll white ppl by stating mathematics is white then aight but you sound like a clown

who said math is white

[The Machine]

it can be. but it sure has had way more of a weight historically than *snicker* ** anti-

So what your saying is that antisemitism is a thing of the past, since Jews arent really oppressed economically.

Good thing white gay guys don't have to worry about homophobia either since historically open homosexuals were middle class.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Good thing white gay guys don't have to worry about homophobia either since historically open homosexuals were middle class.

nope

historically middle class homosexuals were middle class

AMAZING

[The Machine]

Look dude if you want to pretend social alienation doesn't matter that's your prerogative. Literally no one is saying that bigotry against atheists is the same thing as systematic racism, and I guess since you're a Catholic and have your little bone to pick with atheists you keep strawmanning the hell out of this debate. You can keep trying to back up your little non-arguments with one liners all day but the irony of a catholic trying to call everyone else liberal and unmaterialist is pretty lol in itself.

Back to the OP, hopefully a less controversial example of politics being stereotyped as "white" is people who have a really strict class based analysis and don't accept stuff like privilege politics or anti-imperialism.

[The Machine]

Well if activists are saying this, yes it is a divisive and nationalist approach to viewing different struggles. It certainty isn\'t Racism by any means though.

Essentially what I\'d imagine anyone making comments like this means is that these are issues that, in their view, are not a fundamental priority and they see these struggles as not having an impact on fighting black oppression. I would agree with this attitude on an issue like atheism, though not on gay rights and not on such racially divisive grounds.

The role of the black church - particularly in poor cities and communities - certainty is something that revolutionaries will have to deal with. But is the role of the black church primarily the result of scripture and religious belief, or is it that the church plays a role in the community of funneling class and ethnic anger towards liberal or sometimes petty-bourgeois nationalist directions? I think it\'s the politics that are the issue and not the magical ideas.

So right now in a practical sense, with radicals usually being the minority of activists, when there are protests against police brutality or murder, then the local black activist churches will most definitely be involved if not the primary organizers. I think how people deal with that would have to be on a similar basis to dealing with NAACP or some other liberal organization.

When radical politics and organizations are more rooted in black communities in an organic way then the way I think radicals could deal with the liberal church influence is by building counter-movements, contrasting militant tactics and neighborhood organizing to the candle-light vigils and citizen oversight committees favored by church reformers.

Of course this doesn\'t just go for the black church this also goes for other community-rooted socially active churches. Catholic churches have long played a similar role in catholic ethnic neighborhoods; then there\'s the Quakers and Unitarians and so on too.

Yeah it\'s not racist in the systematic or I guess \"correct\" sense, but it\'s racist in the sense that most people use the word: ie being shitty to someone based on race. Why do you think that social alienation of gay blacks matters but not black atheists?

As for everything else I can\'t really comment since I don\'t support activism.

[¿Que?]

I mostly agree with you regarding the European and Enlightenment origins of modern Atheism, but there were pre-enlightenment Atheists and in different countries. Indian philosophical texts refer to an atheist materialist philosophical viewpoint which was skeptical of the claims of other Indian religions. Atheism arises as a form of skepticism about religious claims in many places.
This is really interesting. Where could I get more information about non-Western atheist thought?


What I would say is that the modern dogma which people call Atheism is a particular Materialist philosophy which, as you say, came out of the enlightenment. Certainly, there has arisen a certain kind of "Scientific" and materialist atheism which tries to make metaphysical claims based on modern physics and biology. Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens managed to sell a lot of books about it. Could you clarify the part in bold. As I understand it, metaphysics is just the totality of epistemology and ontology. So to make metaphysical claims based on physics and biology is sort of like looking at a painting upside down, right, since physics and biology assume certain metaphysical claims. So I think we're in agreement here?


As for the issue of relativism and the epistemological basis of religion-Atheism works as a form of skepticism of religious beliefs, but it fails as soon as it tries to make positive metaphysical arguments that God does not exist. It is also fallacious to think that the reasoning done by Atheists against certain dogmatic interpretations of Abrahamic religion also invalidates every other religious claim.Well, but to be fair, many Atheists take the problem of religion in the abstract. Thus, regardless of the opponents religion, their debates often devolve into semantic arguments about the definition of god. But I think here, atheists betray their ignorance, as they tend to believe that if they cannot extract a consistent definition out of their opponents, then the whole enterprise is demolished. The untruth of this lies in the fact that semantics (or what words mean) is as much about codification (rigidly defined, bounded definitions) as it is about how words are used.

[¿Que?]

i dont accept all "epstimelogies" are valid. wanna troll white ppl by stating mathematics is white then aight but you sound like a clown
Ultimately, all you're saying is a cannot equal not-a or something along those lines. But you accept this proposition a-priori, without evidence. What is it about this proposition, unlike, "my car is green" that is so special that it does not require evidence.

The conclusions drawn from rejecting this proposition, or at least loosening it's epistomological grip, to speak figuratively, is another matter, and cannot be generalized into a good/bad category. I reject such a thing white science, because it's obvious racist implications. However, I accept black epistemologies because of their liberatory implications. And further, I make these decisions based on a value judgement which I understand is relative, as is the case with knowledge and a lot of other things.

Like I said originally, I'm not 100% in line with these ideas, but I am playing devil's advocate somewhat.

[Lilith]

who said math is white
In my expert experience, math is extremely white.

[black magick hustla]

Ultimately, all you're saying is a cannot equal not-a or something along those lines. But you accept this proposition a-priori, without evidence. What is it about this proposition, unlike, "my car is green" that is so special that it does not require evidence.

The conclusions drawn from rejecting this proposition, or at least loosening it's epistomological grip, to speak figuratively, is another matter, and cannot be generalized into a good/bad category. I reject such a thing white science, because it's obvious racist implications. However, I accept black epistemologies because of their liberatory implications. And further, I make these decisions based on a value judgement which I understand is relative, as is the case with knowledge and a lot of other things.


you are wasting your money/time on those undergrad classes. i am not really accepting a "proposition" without evidence, specific "epistemologies" are better for specific things than others. you wanna build a computer? you wanna predict when a meteoir is going to crash on the earth and how to do something about it? you use science that was largely invented in the west. what the hell is "black epistemology"?

even franz fanon was better than accepting that stupid radical solipsism of an intellectual society atomized by the death of the soviet union. to franz fanon, the achievements of western civilization are the achievements of everyone, and he claims he has right to that as anyone else.

[black magick hustla]

In my expert experience, math is extremely white.

what about engineers in mexico? do you think those brown people use aztec black magick to build fucking bridges. jesus christ you people

[black magick hustla]

edit: nvm u prolly were torlling

[Искра]

This thread sucks. I've entered here because I tought that BMH is going to some good trollin'... but... naaaah

[Lilith]

what about engineers in mexico? do you think those brown people use aztec black magick to build fucking bridges. jesus christ you people

Have you ever seen a nonwhite mathematician?

[CynicalIdealist]

Have you ever seen a nonwhite mathematician?

I had an Asian maths professor tbqh

[Lilith]

Asians are white, though.

[Franz Fanonipants]

you are wasting your money/time on those undergrad classes. i am not really accepting a "proposition" without evidence, specific "epistemologies" are better for specific things than others. you wanna build a computer? you wanna predict when a meteoir is going to crash on the earth and how to do something about it? you use science that was largely invented in the west. what the hell is "black epistemology"?

even franz fanon was better than accepting that stupid radical solipsism of an intellectual society atomized by the death of the soviet union. to franz fanon, the achievements of western civilization are the achievements of everyone, and he claims he has right to that as anyone else.

hey stupid you don't even know what the fuck you're talking about

epistemologies aren't essential to identities

they're historically contingent

go drink molson and stfu

e: scientists talking above their fucking pay grade

[Franz Fanonipants]

This thread sucks. I've entered here because I tought that BMH is going to some good trollin'... but... naaaah

pls curl up in bordiga's grave and live out your last sad days there asap

[Thirsty Crow]

T
How do you justify a particular epistemology (theory of knowledge) without adopting one first?

Now this is a seriously relativist argument, and it bears to note that I'm not 100% sure about some of these ideas. But it is a pretty strong argument for relativism...
Yeah, except that it is crystal clear that some practices arising from a particular epistemology as you say won't and can't do shit about an existing problem. For instance, let's suppose there is a society whose members adhere to the opinion that rain is a product of a specific god's will and actions, which constitutes the basis for practices akin to prayer aimed at facilitating rain. Apart from the fact that this practice is constitutive of a society's way of life, something which shouldn't be forcibly changed against the will of its members, we can say for sure that it won't facilitate rain, no matter the cute relativism we decide to peddle.

So again, as BMH says, some epistemologies are simply more appropriate than others in a given field. Unless, that is, if you're a postmodernist douchebag.

[antiracist]

Sorry for off-topic, but why are people here so confrontational and so mean?
Can't things be discussed in a more polite and tolerant manner?
I seriously don't see the point of this...
:(

[Revolutionair]

who said math is white

IDD, math is clearly asian. Why doesn't that dumb white atheist reactionary imperialist bourgeois scumbag get that? Is he a racist or something? Probably yes, because all whites are racist, and atheist, and imperialist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

IDD, math is clearly asian. Why doesn't that dumb white atheist reactionary imperialist bourgeois scumbag get that? Is he a racist or something? Probably yes, because all whites are racist, and atheist, and imperialist.

poster from the netherlands says a thing

[Franz Fanonipants]

So again, as BMH says, some epistemologies are simply more appropriate than others in a given field. Unless, that is, if you're a postmodernist douchebag.

yeah, like how left-communism is pretty inappropriate if you want to actually have a revolutionary success rather than end up executed in a ditch/burning ulcers over those goddamn liberal arts/being fucking useless and talking a lot of shit

[Revolutionair]

yeah, like how left-communism is pretty inappropriate if you want to actually have a revolutionary success rather than end up executed in a ditch/burning ulcers over those goddamn liberal arts/being fucking useless and talking a lot of shit

Because so far, MLs have been quite succesful at not operating countries like a giant capitalist machine.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Because so far, MLs have been quite succesful at not operating countries like a giant capitalist machine.

whereas leftcoms have operated their countries as hahahahahaahahahahaha

[Leftsolidarity]

Sorry for off-topic, but why are people here so confrontational and so mean?
Can't things be discussed in a more polite and tolerant manner?
I seriously don't see the point of this...
:(

Not always like this. Franz is just a troll which makes conversations hard to hold.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Not always like this. Franz is just a troll which makes conversations hard to hold.

Pends on your definition of "always" though; have you seen the Stalin-VS-Trotsky debates? lol

Usually things are a bit better than this: there have been many debates where things are intellectually stimulating and people are able to refrain from swearing,flame baiting and crude accusations.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Usually things are a bit better than this: there have been many debates where things are intellectually stimulating and people are able to refrain from swearing,flame baiting and crude accusations.

basically stay out of the history forum and you'll be fine

[Thirsty Crow]

basically stay out of the history forum and you'll be fine
Or stay out of whichever thread you're posting in for the moment :laugh:

(but seriously, this troll is kept loose while some people who did more than post flaming, trolling one-liners bit the dust, and not for political reasons...which is just precious)

[Franz Fanonipants]

(but seriously, this troll is kept loose while some people who did more than post flaming, trolling one-liners bit the dust, and not for political reasons...which is just precious)

every single ultraleft around the age of 40 becomes a fascist idk if you knew that but get ready for it

[Manic Impressive]

every single ultraleft around the age of 40 becomes a fascist idk if you knew that but get ready for it
Are you speaking from personal experience there? I ask again why aren't you banned yet?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Are you speaking from personal experience there? I ask again why aren't you banned yet?

and i'll ask again, if you want me banned, get it done

[Ele'ill]

Thread closed.