fuck the hunger games

[Rafiq]

This is a waste of money. More waa waa corporatephobia cheap conservatism. And I didn't even watch it.

[#FF0000]

i liked it better when it was called battle royale

[Le Rouge]

What's wrong about corporatephobia? :confused:

[The Young Pioneer]

'Nuff said.

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/political-pictures-im-sure-thats-what-suzanne-collins-had-in-mind.jpg

[Rafiq]

What's wrong about corporatephobia? :confused:

Our class enemy is the Bourgeoisie. Corporations are just another means of their class rule. If you "remove corporations", you haven't hit the root of the problem.

It's basically Social Democratic Liberalism.

Or, you can interperate it as Libertarian horse shit.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Yes, the dream of every Leninist-Stalinist is to force children to kill each other for reality TV. How did they find out our plan!!!!!!

[Franz Fanonipants]

mostly when things based on children's literature become a thing the best course is to avoid it

because it's from children's literature

[Rafiq]

I believe it is of absolute necessity to throw each and every human being who uses the term "Big government" into the worst possible gulag

[Rafiq]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/22/hunger-games-shoots-arrows-at-big-government-big-media-hits-bullseye/


So yes, the film has some of the conventional elements of a love-triangle. But what’s truly startling about the movie, then, is its implicit politics: Ordinary folks are good, government is bad--really bad. There are no evil corporations in this movie; the bad guys are bureaucrats and TV hosts.
Taken literally, Hunger Games is a black-helicopter-ish portrayal of state power. But taken figuratively, the film is an Anthem (novella) for our time, a well-crafted cry from the heart against top-down injustice and oppression. Nobody has made a rallying-cry of a movie that’s this effective in a long, long time.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/22/hunger-games-shoots-arrows-at-big-government-big-media-hits-bullseye/#ixzz1q4ctxJuj

[marl]

I believe it is of absolute necessity to throw each and every human being who uses the term "Big government" into the worst possible gulag

I thought it was decided upon by Revleft that every right-winged 'libertarian' gets their own island to themself to see how much of a utopia they could possibly make, until they were begging to leave.

[lombas]

I believe it is of absolute necessity to throw each and every human being who uses the term "Big government" into the worst possible gulag

Why? It's a pejorative term that might be interpreted any way you want it...?

[GPDP]

Why? It's a pejorative term that might be interpreted any way you want it...?

Oh, I think EVERYONE knows exactly what the term is referring to when used by those who employ it regularly.

[l'Enfermé]

I agree with Rafiq. A gulag inside a gulag inside a gulag for people who use the term "Big Government"!

[RedZezz]

Frankly, I am suprised that Fox News isn't complaining about "class warfare" since the villians are all portrayed as incredibly rich and the protagonists are dressed like working class.

[lombas]

Oh, I think EVERYONE knows exactly what the term is referring to when used by those who employ it regularly.

It makes no sense letting terminology be claimed by "libertarians". I've read some of Gabriel Kolko's books for example and I find it very hard to believe that someone valuable for leftist thought and history like him is being claimed by "libertarians" like that. His critique of "big government-big business" is entirely different than what they make of it.

Maybe this is less difficult for a non-American like me...

[Sasha]

Frankly, I am suprised that Fox News isn't complaining about "class warfare" since the villians are all portrayed as incredibly rich and the protagonists are dressed like working class.

Fox spins everything they can make money on or reflect good of, If this movie was going to bomb (or only become a art house hit) they would be slagging the exact same movie as socialist indoctrination but they would never rip a sure blockbuster. Financial gain is the only politics fox really believe in. Proof is in the pudding that they even buried "atlas shrugged" without batting an eye.

[Rafiq]

I thought it was decided upon by Revleft that every right-winged 'libertarian' gets their own island to themself to see how much of a utopia they could possibly make, until they were begging to leave.

Nope. Gulag.

[Rafiq]

It makes no sense letting terminology be claimed by "libertarians". I've read some of Gabriel Kolko's books for example and I find it very hard to believe that someone valuable for leftist thought and history like him is being claimed by "libertarians" like that. His critique of "big government-big business" is entirely different than what they make of it.

Maybe this is less difficult for a non-American like me...

Complaints about "Big government" are counter revolutionary. We despise the class enemy, the Bourgeois class. They control the state (Or, "The government"). So our enemy is the Bourgeois class, because under this umbrella, it includes "Corporations" "Government" and all Private Property. To rail against "Big government" and "Corporations" is counter revolutionary because:

1. Okay, we get rid of "Big government". Now the Bourgeois class fucks us all over even worse, hire private armies, etc. and the system spins into chaotic shit. (Even though, the Bourgoeis class needs a large state in order to survive).

2. Okay, we abolish "corporations" and "Corporate Rule". Now workers get fucked by the small bourgeoisie and the petite bourgeoisie. And then, they become something worse than "Corporations".

When one is complaining of "Big government", at least over here, they reek of the class enemy.

[Drowzy_Shooter]

I read the books like a year ago, the books were alright. I'm gonna go see it tonight, it'll be interesting to see how the adaptation went.

[Psy]

Frankly, I am suprised that Fox News isn't complaining about "class warfare" since the villians are all portrayed as incredibly rich and the protagonists are dressed like working class.
The bigger problem is that in the story the Hunger Games is a reaction by the state to a failed revolution against its rule.

[Rafiq]

The bigger problem is that in the story the Hunger Games is a reaction by the state to a failed revolution against its rule.

That isn't a "Failed Revolution". It's an attempt by "THAH PEOPLE!" to overthrow their oppressive "BIG GOVT RICH CRONYISTS".

[Psy]

That isn't a "Failed Revolution". It's an attempt by "THAH PEOPLE!" to overthrow their oppressive "BIG GOVT RICH CRONYISTS".
What people, the people in the capital have much higher living standards then the exploited districts. It is also clear the capitalists of Panem has no interest in overthrowing Panem as they are not being exploited, they are actually benefiting by the state exploiting the working class for them.

[¿Que?]

I thought the previews looked dumb. They should let me write a socio-political sci fi thriller.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The trailers look like a ripoff of Battle Royale directed by Tim Burton with some costumes out of a Lady Gaga video.

[RedAtheist]

The film does not look like its intended to promote 'free market capitalism'. If it was intended to promote that, it would make the competition between the teenagers who are trying to kill each other off look like a good thing or part of human nature (okay that's probably an exaggeration, but you get my point.) The film instead clearly shows the way in which circumstances force people to do terrible things to survive. It is a critique of the mainstream media. It has a powerful female main character (unlike a certain other popular book series.) There are no references to 'socialism' or 'communism' or complaints about the limiting of 'economic freedom'. In fact if we complain about the film for portraying a totalitarian government negatively, when the film makes no clear connection between totalitarianism and socialism, we are playing in to the stereotypes conversative promote about us.

I say fuck Fox News for trying to claim this as an 'anti-socialist' film. They did the same thing with Orwell's 1984, but I don't think that makes it a bad book. Sure the Hunger Games is not a perfect Marxist analysis of capitalism (the author is not a socialist after all) but there are positive elements to it. It certainly beats much of the other junk which portrays teenage girls as nothing more than boy-obsessed idiots or which glorifies some American man who goes around killing 'bad guys' from other countries.

To be honest though, I won't be seeing the Hunger Games until tonight, so I what I say might turn out to be wrong.

[Rafiq]

What people, the people in the capital have much higher living standards then the exploited districts. It is also clear the capitalists of Panem has no interest in overthrowing Panem as they are not being exploited, they are actually benefiting by the state exploiting the working class for them.

Um.. The main character's dad was petty bourgeois.

It was "The people" of the oppressed districts verses "The privileged big govt".

[Rafiq]

Yeah, me just having seventy bucks stolen from my locker I don't fucking think I'm going to waste a cent on a movie unless it's called The Hobbit

[Psy]

Um.. The main character's dad was petty bourgeois.

It was "The people" of the oppressed districts verses "The privileged big govt".

The big privileged government defended capitalism from a major workers revolution and a nuclear armed workers state (District 13), and it is District 13 that is the largest threat to the Panem as it is a worker state that survived being nuked by Panem in underground nuclear bunkers and deformed into a highly militaristic society with heavy rationing because they all live in underground army bunkers because they were nuked by Panem.

Surely in the Hunger Games books District 13 is far more "big government" then Panem yet it paints District 13 in a better light then Panem.

[Luc]

In canada they force us to read the first one for gr. 9 english... the horror. glad i'm not in grade 9 when the movie came out because it's a fucking field trip this year or compulsory I dunno i'm pissed that i can't ignore this, it's everywhere

[Comrade_Stalin]

Fox spins everything they can make money on or reflect good of, If this movie was going to bomb (or only become a art house hit) they would be slagging the exact same movie as socialist indoctrination but they would never rip a sure blockbuster. Financial gain is the only politics fox really believe in. Yroof is in the pudding that they even buried "atlas shrugged" without batting an eye.

And now there making a second one.


Yes, the dream of every Leninist-Stalinist is to force children to kill each other for reality TV. How did they find out our plan!!!!!!

You left out the part that the only place you can find reality TV shows is in capitalist nations, that lack of original ideas for their TV programming. Most of time having to resort to paying untrained people, I'm sorry "non-elite liberal actors" to participate in stupid games in order to raise their TV ratings.

[gorillafuck]

how lightly some people take gulags is kind of odd

[Rafiq]

how lightly some people take gulags is kind of odd

Note to self: Track down zeekloid and throw him in gulag.

[Comrade Samuel]

I'm going to see this with my English class next week, so I guess openly protesting it and declareing it a bourgeois piece of sh*t is out of the question then? :D

I think that screen shot from faux news says everything that needs to be said.

[Psy]

I'm going to see this with my English class next week, so I guess openly protesting it and declareing it a bourgeois piece of sh*t is out of the question then? :D

I think that screen shot from faux news says everything that needs to be said.
Hunger Games isn't really bourgeois. Hunger Games does criticize our bourgeois society just not in a Marxist grounding.

[Aloysius]

I, for one, really enjoyed the movie. It was pretty good as far as book-to-movie adaptations go. The books were pretty good, too, but I'm a fuckin' teenager, so what do I know?

[Ocean Seal]

Why? It's a pejorative term that might be interpreted any way you want it...?
That's exactly why anyone who uses it should be thrown into a massive gulag and be forced to listen to a techno version of the Soviet national anthem.

[Luc]

I'm going to see this with my English class next week, so I guess openly protesting it and declareing it a bourgeois piece of sh*t is out of the question then? :D

I think that screen shot from faux news says everything that needs to be said.

throw your drink at the screen or somthing :cool:

[MustCrushCapitalism]

On the contrary...
http://theredphoenixapl.org/2012/03/23/review-of-the-hunger-games/

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Note to self: Track down zeekloid and throw him in gulag.

I like you Rafiq. That is exactly what I say to myself whenever someone disagrees with me.:lol:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

On the contrary...
http://theredphoenixapl.org/2012/03/23/review-of-the-hunger-games/

Who cares what the Internet-party says, they're probably high and laffin' all the way through and then tenuously string together a rubbish review to fit into some pop-culture Zeitgeist of rubbish shit like Hunger Games, sub-par literature and imbecilic social commentary rolled into a slippery ball odorous like vomit.

[Psy]

Who cares what the Internet-party says, they're probably high and laffin' all the way through and then tenuously string together a rubbish review to fit into some pop-culture Zeitgeist of rubbish shit like Hunger Games, sub-par literature and imbecilic social commentary rolled into a slippery ball odorous like vomit.
Not the only Marxist review that talks positively about Hunger Games.

http://marxistupdate.blogspot.ca/2011/01/post-apocalypse-future.html

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Who cares what the Internet-party says, they're probably high and laffin' all the way through and then tenuously string together a rubbish review to fit into some pop-culture Zeitgeist of rubbish shit like Hunger Games, sub-par literature and imbecilic social commentary rolled into a slippery ball odorous like vomit.
The APL aren't an internet party... they don't report on everything they do.

[Drowzy_Shooter]

Get my cell in the gulags ready...

I thought it was really good (just purely from an entertainment stance). From an anarchist's perspective, I thought it did a good job of portraying what a government can become. That doesn't mean it was the best, but with American media sometimes I have to lower my standards. Also, I think the movie didn't really cover capitalism vs socialism, I think it pretty much left itself out of that fight.

[Ostrinski]

Get my cell in the gulags ready...Don't worry, it's in mint condition aside from the blood stained mattress and the shit-graffiti on the walls.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Not the only Marxist review that talks positively about Hunger Games.

http://marxistupdate.blogspot.ca/2011/01/post-apocalypse-future.html

And? This is just nonsensical extrapolation of their own ideological positions on a piece of culture which does not have that sort of depth. They see superficial semblance in its generic thematics which are a frankly very shallow and simple culture-comment (on social division and a corrupt state using spectacle games as a cultural diversion) and from this imagine that things which are not there are. Many leftist cultural critics sometimes take this sort of position.

The Long Walk is much better, at any rate within this narrow genre of death-match fighting/etc social commentary (probably even the politically illiterate ramblings of the novel Battle Royale are better). This writing in Hunger Games is atrocious. Not to say one should expect much at all from literature aimed at youth mass-appeal, but to think it is somehow a significant ideological contribution and a clear formulation on the necessity of socialism is preposterous.

[Agent Ducky]

Get my cell in the gulags ready...

I thought it was really good (just purely from an entertainment stance). From an anarchist's perspective, I thought it did a good job of portraying what a government can become. That doesn't mean it was the best, but with American media sometimes I have to lower my standards. Also, I think the movie didn't really cover capitalism vs socialism, I think it pretty much left itself out of that fight.

This. I personally really enjoyed the series (the end made me angry though)....

It's just one of those things where I'm not gonna sit there and apply ideology and politics to it and just take it at face value and enjoy it for what it is.

[Decommissioner]

mostly when things based on children's literature become a thing the best course is to avoid it

because it's from children's literature

Call me elitist, but anytime someone tries to recommend me a book from the young adult genre, I can't help but roll my eyes. I'm an adult, why are other adults reading this stuff when they could read regular adult literature? Stuff seems to be all people read these days.

[bcbm]

people who give a shit what other people read are obnoxious. so you like young adult sci fi? so you like romance novels? so you like obscure tomes on marxist-leninism? so you like true life adventure stories?

who gives a fuck. quit being an ass.

[Grenzer]

I do have to admit, obscure marxist-leninist tomes are a guilty pleasure of mine. Intellectually vacuous, but entertaining and occasionally humorous.

That said, fuck the hunger games. "Big Government" is probably one of the most annoying buzzwords in existence by reactionaries today. Not to mention it just looks really boring. Most stuff coming out of hollywood is complete garbage these days. I'll take a classic like the Roaring Twenties over this crap any day; but if that's your thing, go for it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Call me elitist, but anytime someone tries to recommend me a book from the young adult genre, I can't help but roll my eyes. Oh yeah, that Huck Finn, what childish crap:rolleyes:


I'm an adult, why are other adults reading this stuff when they could read regular adult literature?You mean like some bullshit detective or Tom Clancey novel or "Girl with the Poorly Wrtten Novels"? Enjoy your Grishams you sophisticate.

I read 1000 page obscure marxist shit and then take a break and read comic books! Oooh the corrupter of youth! I love John Waters and Roger Corman movies, Werewolves on Harleys, and Zombies walking around malls or eating the brains of punk rockers in a cemetery. I also love Ulysses and Gravety's Rainbow and Infinite Jest.

You might just as easily argue: "why listens to rock music which is just bubble gum bullshit about white people in love. Grow up and listen to some avant-guard jazz."

Lol, I'd rather vomit than listen to jazz. And I'd rather see "Harry Potter" (well one of the latter ones, the Chris Colombus ones are shit) than most so-called "adult" movies like (the non-Cronenberg) "Crash" "the King's Speech" or "the Help" which have a much more simplistic and infantile view of society than the Harry Potter kids movies.

If this was about Twilight I'd agree with y'all but not because of the marketing tage of "Young Adult" but because it's infintile crap about a 2-dimensional self-absorbed character who tells girls that sex will ruin your life and your goal should be to have some guy carry you around like a baby everywhere.

I just read the Hunger Games and it was a really quick light read with a peppy pace. Thematically there is nothing Libertarian Party type Libertarian about this.


Um.. The main character's dad was petty bourgeois.

It was "The people" of the oppressed districts verses "The privileged big govt".Lol, her dad is a COAL MINER who died in the mine.

The whole plot is haves vs. have-nots and how the government literally divides the workforce into districts that produce various specific commodities. The book was all about solidarity vs. having to fight to the death over crumbs.

When I was a freshman in High School we had to read "Lord of the Flies" which is right-wing bullshit written by a child molester and mini-gamemaster himself since his research for the book was a a teacher consciously pitting his students against each-other. The themes of that book are that inherent in human nature is "the fall" and corruption and we basically need adults (our better or government or civilization) or else we will become brutal and kill each-other without sane reason.

The theme of the Hunger Game was that the brutality of our lives, the distrust of others, hardness and unwillingness to love, come out of social conditions and the structure of society - a society which like our own is run for the few and over the vast majority.

If I had a teen child, I'd much rather they read the Hunger Games than Lord of the Flies.

[Luc]

In my school we have to read both...

[Jimmie Higgins]

In my school we have to read both...I'm sure that Lord of the Flies is wonderfully written, just try and concentrate on that part and ignore the misanthropy.

On an unrelated note and to continue my rant from my post above, I think there is a larger picture to the question of why is Young Adult lit such a fad right now, why are adults reading it?

Part of that is just marketing, since Harry Potter, a lot of money has been thrown in this direction. Most is probably crap and any stroll through a bookstore (if they still exist in your area) YA shelves will blind you from the shiney covers of dozens of bullshit Twilight-inspired (who knew hack was so contagious) and Harry Potteresque books. Vampires in school, teenage witches with a love triangle, vampire gym class and whatever. That's the nature of pop-culture in capitalism. But there is a side effect that since the industry has so much money they just throw a bunch or development into action and sometimes this allows some genuinely interesting things to get published or recorded in the frenzy of companies trying to cash-in. This happens in many genres - horror is a good example - it's a marginalized genre much of the time but then one movie makes a lot of money and suddenly there's a gold rush of zombie movies or ghost-stories; most end up being crap, but some innovation can come out of the frenzy too. Music scenes are the same way: college rock or punk get big and you get mostly Billy Idols and Alice in Chains or shit, but space is also opened up for really innovative and interesting things too.

[Rafiq]

people who give a shit what other people read are obnoxious. so you like young adult sci fi? so you like romance novels? so you like obscure tomes on marxist-leninism? so you like true life adventure stories?

who gives a fuck. quit being an ass.

Yeah, because I go to people's houses and forcefully regulate what they read and watch.

[bcbm]

Yeah, because I go to people's houses and forcefully regulate what they read and watch.

and that is quite rude of you, but i was actually directing my ire at those who enjoy sounding like pompous twits and judging what other people read.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

This is probably the first literature/movie that has been recommended to me by someone on the editorial board of a left communist journal and Fox News.

I think that it is generally populist enough to allow various sectors to see themselves in its image. Whether its class warfare, reformist struggle against out of control corporations, individuals doing battle against "big government," etc., depends on what one wants to read into it.

Anti-government positions aren't limited to conservatives or libertarians. See: Anarchists. Or people like Orwell, who wrote against the huge bureaucracy in the USSR (though that was then used as anti-communist "required reading" in U.S. schools).

Anti-corporate and bank positions aren't limited to leftists and liberals. Remember that the fascist road to power was a combination of physical force and anti-banker rhetoric. Little fascist cliques still grumble about the "Jewish banking cabal."

Of course the fact that such a book and movie has emerged as it has, and that it has prompted political discussion, is as much a sign of the times (and the crisis of capitalism) as anything else.

* * *

The Hunger Games Politics

The Hunger Games" is a rarity -- a Hollywood blockbuster that inspires political discourse. Is it a liberal movie? Is it a conservative flick? Is it both? It all depends on who you ask.

An article from the Hollywood Reporter explains how folks can see their own beliefs reflected in the story. For example, people who back the Occupy movement note that the movie and the book it is based upon feature a world divided into rich and poor. The rich are viewed as layabouts and the poor are hard-working and put upon.

Actor Penn Badgley, best known for his work on "Gossip Girl," attended the premiere with girlfriend Zoe Kravitz. Badgley remarked to New York Magazine, "It's the 1 percent (killing the kids)... I think you'd have to be blind to not see that. I was shocked to see all that in there."

The creator of "The Hunger Games," author Suzanne Collins, mentioned that the story has a lot to say about climate change. In the film's press notes, Collins noted the themes she hopes young readers hold on to.

"I hope they question how elements of the books might be relevant to their own lives. About global warming, about our mistreatment of the environment, but also questions like: How do you feel about the fact that some people take their next meal for granted when so many other people are starving in the world?"

Most people see climate change as a liberal issue, but Collins also mentions that young people should be aware of the choices their governments are making. Distrust of the government? Traditionally that's more of a conservative view. If the bad guys were, say, an investment bank, that would be something else.

Commenters at Free Republic, a message board dedicated to "independent, grass-roots conservatism," argue that the movie is a conservative message. "Those opposing the big-govt are the heros (sp)," one person writes. Another writes, "I would have to say that the books are essentially conservative, whether the author intended them to be or not."

Whatever Collins's intentions, she has successfully created a world that appeals to both conservatives and liberals and that bodes very well for the box office.

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/hunger-games-politics-223719796.html

[Rafiq]

and that is quite rude of you, but i was actually directing my ire at those who enjoy sounding like pompous twits and judging what other people read.

Silence you fool, you'll read what I tell you to read.

[Psy]

And? This is just nonsensical extrapolation of their own ideological positions on a piece of culture which does not have that sort of depth. They see superficial semblance in its generic thematics which are a frankly very shallow and simple culture-comment (on social division and a corrupt state using spectacle games as a cultural diversion) and from this imagine that things which are not there are. Many leftist cultural critics sometimes take this sort of position.

The Long Walk is much better, at any rate within this narrow genre of death-match fighting/etc social commentary (probably even the politically illiterate ramblings of the novel Battle Royale are better). This writing in Hunger Games is atrocious. Not to say one should expect much at all from literature aimed at youth mass-appeal, but to think it is somehow a significant ideological contribution and a clear formulation on the necessity of socialism is preposterous.
No what they are annalists of the political economy of the fictional work, we see class struggle in Hunger Game if one dissects how the fictional world works using what we know of political economies through human history.

Marxists critiques of literature can find these themes even if they are unintentional by the author because Marxists break down how the fictional society works based on the information provided.

[gorillafuck]

I'm sure that Lord of the Flies is wonderfully written, just try and concentrate on that part and ignore the misanthropy.oh c'mon. we know that people can go nuts in dire situations, that'd be ridiculous to deny. I don't see why a book on this is such a bad thing to have. lord of the flies has never influenced political leanings I would guess.

[Rafiq]

oh c'mon. we know that people can go nuts in dire situations, that'd be ridiculous to deny. I don't see why a book on this is such a bad thing to have. lord of the flies has never influenced political leanings I would guess.

Lord of the Flies is a pretty reactionary book, not because of it's misanthropy, but of it's classical Bourgeois "Human nature" shit.

I revoked it by pointing out a crew of Roughed up Sailors who were stranded in the Antarctic, where there weren't any reported violence between them. When it comes to survival, I suppose people have to put their differences aside and get shit done.

[Hermes]

Lord of the Flies is a pretty reactionary book, not because of it's misanthropy, but of it's classical Bourgeois "Human nature" shit.

I revoked it by pointing out a crew of Roughed up Sailors who were stranded in the Antarctic, where there weren't any reported violence between them. When it comes to survival, I suppose people have to put their differences aside and get shit done.

You could, of course, say that the sailors were more able to repress their nature because they themselves were adults and had developed the capacity for doing so.

If you happen to believe in children not having that ability in the first place, and if you happen to believe that human nature is inherently bad.

(I have no idea where I stand on either issue)

[mykittyhasaboner]

Fictional works of art are always going to be read or watched in different ways, which reflects the viewer's own prejudices and beliefs. i find it quite pointless to argue about it.

The bottom line is this movie was made to make a profit, and most people who see it will judge it on whether or not it was entertaining. A small portion of people will try to find any kind of political meaning to it.

[gorillafuck]

Lord of the Flies is a pretty reactionary book, not because of it's misanthropy, but of it's classical Bourgeois "Human nature" shit.

I revoked it by pointing out a crew of Roughed up Sailors who were stranded in the Antarctic, where there weren't any reported violence between them. When it comes to survival, I suppose people have to put their differences aside and get shit done.immature children are pretty different from disciplined adult sailors.

[Rafiq]

immature children are pretty different from disciplined adult sailors.

The author tried to use the children as an example that we are all evil inside of us.

[gorillafuck]

fair enough.

[bcbm]

The author tried to use the children as an example that we are all evil inside of us.

i think pretty much everyone is capable of horror

[Rafiq]

You could, of course, say that the sailors were more able to repress their nature because they themselves were adults and had developed the capacity for doing so.

If you happen to believe in children not having that ability in the first place, and if you happen to believe that human nature is inherently bad.

(I have no idea where I stand on either issue)

That's fucking ludicrous. Adults represent more of what "Humans are" than Children, since, Children aren't as developed as adults. Children are humans, but not fully developed humans. There is no "Zero state" human nature. Human nature is defined as what the material world makes of you.

[Rafiq]

nvm

[Rafiq]

i think pretty much everyone is capable of horror

They are, but that doesn't mean it's in their nature to do so. It is not as if there is some kind of external being that is keeping us from murdering each other. It may be vulgur, but in truth Human nature is defined as for filling the needs of the production process. That's the only reason we have laws and "morals".

[black magick hustla]

people who give a shit what other people read are obnoxious. so you like young adult sci fi? so you like romance novels? so you like obscure tomes on marxist-leninism? so you like true life adventure stories?

who gives a fuck. quit being an ass.

bad taste is unforgivable

[black magick hustla]

im just pissed that this was totally plagiarized from battle royale, including the teens murdering each other at games, and big bad government forcing them to do so + teens rebelling against big bad government.

[gorillafuck]

They are, but that doesn't mean it's in their nature to do so. It is not as if there is some kind of external being that is keeping us from murdering each other. It may be vulgur, but in truth Human nature is defined as for filling the needs of the production process. That's the only reason we have laws and "morals".being against child molestation only arises as a moral due to the production process?

[Geiseric]

I thought it was decided upon by Revleft that every right-winged 'libertarian' gets their own island to themself to see how much of a utopia they could possibly make, until they were begging to leave.

I actually remember that discussion. We could film it and show it to our kids as propaganda, and wipe away any last vestiges of capitalism, while having a good time. Jeez that would be an awesome movie... Ronald Reagen is fighting Milton Freidman.

[Tovarisch]

I for one, enjoyed the movie. It was not professionally written, but remember it's a fucking teenage book. It wasn't meant to be a professional paper on politics

Also here are some radical leftist themes I noticed in the book

1) Women's strength. In many books and movies, women are merely "damsels in distress" who are kidnapped and require rescuing. Many examples of this: Rapunzel, Mario, Twilight. Yet in Hunger Games, women are strong physically and mentally, and can easily defend themselves. Maybe the strength of Katniss will end the image of women being weak and feeble

2) The 99%. Twelve districts work through poverty and despair to feed the Capitol, who are the 1%. I think it's a commentary on everyday life, where the wealthiest 1% are exploiting the other 99% for money and entertainment.

3) Stop listening to Faux News. They are a bunch of assholes, and just because they think that a book is conservative, does not mean that a book is actually conservative

[Rafiq]

being against child molestation only arises as a moral due to the production process?

Absolutely.

[Agent Ducky]

im just pissed that this was totally plagiarized from battle royale, including the teens murdering each other at games, and big bad government forcing them to do so + teens rebelling against big bad government.

Not necessarily "plagiarized." It just has a similar concept at the heart of the story.
Was the book Battle Royale good? I watched the movie and liked it.

[Tenka]

Also here are some radical leftist themes I noticed in the book

1) Women's strength. In many books and movies, women are merely "damsels in distress" who are kidnapped and require rescuing. Many examples of this: Rapunzel, Mario, Twilight. Yet in Hunger Games, women are strong physically and mentally, and can easily defend themselves. Maybe the strength of Katniss will end the image of women being weak and feeble

Strong females have been depicted in popular culture for quite a while now. Even by Disney (see: Mulan). I don't think it's all that radical in itself.

2) The 99%. Twelve districts work through poverty and despair to feed the Capitol, who are the 1%. I think it's a commentary on everyday life, where the wealthiest 1% are exploiting the other 99% for money and entertainment.Well it's all been done before, countless times (even by Disney. see:A Bug's Life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S7I20uF4S0)), and here it's not done in any new or interesting way. But it is current and popular, so I guess makes sense more than other things to incorporate into contemporary populist 99% rhetoric. I, for one, just think the story sucks and setting is unbelievable.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Lord of the Flies is a pretty reactionary book, not because of it's misanthropy, but of it's classical Bourgeois "Human nature" shit.Sure, but I guess I see these as complementary. Bourgeois "Human Nature" arguments are always misanthropic: people are too greedy and violent and that's why we need a state and police and courts; and that's also why capitalism is a good system because it uses man's inherent greed to keep the whole system in check - everyone wants to make money so they won't want to do "bad" things that would disrupt that; we can't give too much welfare because people are lazy and will abuse it, etc."


im just pissed that this was totally plagiarized from battle royale, including the teens murdering each other at games, and big bad government forcing them to do so + teens rebelling against big bad government.

Ever read the short story "the Lottery"? It's about a small picket-fence American town where there's a festival and we slowly learn through the description of this oddly somber yet fully festive town gathering that there will be a lotto drawing to determine who will be sacrificed.

Storytellers borrow. The battle royale concept is not unique to the book - obvioulsy since the term and concept pre-date the Japanese book and movie. I wouldn't be surprised if it did help inspire the writer, but after having read the book, I don't really feel like it's a straight rip-off, just a riff.


oh c'mon. we know that people can go nuts in dire situations, that'd be ridiculous to deny. I don't see why a book on this is such a bad thing to have. lord of the flies has never influenced political leanings I would guess.

Sure they can, but that's not what the author is saying. Just think about it, there are two camps, one evil and murderous and one more civilized and trying to retain their "humanity". The whole point of having two camps with one going "savage" and one trying to make little UK on the island is to show that it's not due to dire circumstances alone that people go "savage". So the difference between brutality and cooperation is a choice, not because of material circumstances according to the book. The "bad kids" are like kids who suddenly realize that their babysitter fell asleep and they are raiding the cookie jar.

"Lord of the Flies" is the name of Satan. The book is a pretty ham-handedly suggesting (that's why it's taught in schools because it's symbolism is like a cracker-jacks box decoded message) that human nature is evil and animal and civilization, specifically Christian European civilization is needed to keep things in check, but after the 20th century wars, the author is unsure if our christian morals as a species are strong enough to hold things together. It's not just "human nature" but original sin - the kids literally see a man fall from the sky and find a dead war pilot crucified among tree-branches after parachuting from a plane.

It's pessimistic and misanthropic. People are cruel not due to dire situations, rather the author goes to great lengths to show that cruelty is done for sport among humans... piggy piggy.

[Rafiq]

The book & movie is just cheap conservativism. She admitted it was a rail on "showbiz culture" after Iraq war.

[Psy]

The book & movie is just cheap conservativism. She admitted it was a rail on "showbiz culture" after Iraq war.
Cheap conservatism with class struggle and where the beacon of hope (District 13) can be viewed as being similar to the USSR after the Russian civil-war? District 13 having massive rationing, a strong militarist tradition where it uses to get its people to self-sacrifice for the greater good. Also District 13 rulers also having a split between those that wants peace with Panem and those that want Panem destroyed by any means necessary and the latter that leads to Panem to face yet another workers revolution in the third book.

[Agent Ducky]

The book & movie is just cheap conservativism. She admitted it was a rail on "showbiz culture" after Iraq war.

What's conservative about that?
And Psy, I also saw parallels (intentional or not) between the USSR and District 13 and thought it was interesting how Katniss balked at both of these authoritarian systems even though she realizes she needs to support the vehicle of the workers' revolution. But you could apply that kinda stuff to a lot of things...

[Rafiq]

Cheap conservatism with class struggle and where the beacon of hope (District 13) can be viewed as being similar to the USSR after the Russian civil-war? District 13 having massive rationing, a strong militarist tradition where it uses to get its people to self-sacrifice for the greater good. Also District 13 rulers also having a split between those that wants peace with Panem and those that want Panem destroyed by any means necessary and the latter that leads to Panem to face yet another workers revolution in the third book.

Umm... Fuck no?

[Rafiq]

What's conservative about that?
And Psy, I also saw parallels (intentional or not) between the USSR and District 13 and thought it was interesting how Katniss balked at both of these authoritarian systems even though she realizes she needs to support the vehicle of the workers' revolution. But you could apply that kinda stuff to a lot of things...

Because the notion that our culture is being "tainted" with showbiz rhetoric is conservative in nature.

Of she (author) made district 13 look like the USSR, it's just orwellion cold war "Individualism" waa waa.

[Psy]

Umm... Fuck no?
Even the capital of Panem is names Capital. Lets face it, if Hunger Games was written in the USSR the censors would have had no issues with the books and have seen it in line with the party line.

[Agent Ducky]

Even the capital of Panem is names Capital. Lets face it, if Hunger Games was written in the USSR the censors would have had no issues with the books and have seen it in line with the party line.

No, no. Considering who Katniss shoots at the end, no. If I were a Soviet censor and was viewing the whole thing as a metaphor for the USSR I'd be like "NYET." Although I don't think it's supposed to be a metaphor for the USSR.

And Rafiq, I would view that more as a liberal thing. The disenchantment with reality TV and that stuff and the Iraq war strikes me as more liberal than conservative.

[Rafiq]

No, no. Considering who Katniss shoots at the end, no. If I were a Soviet censor and was viewing the whole thing as a metaphor for the USSR I'd be like "NYET." Although I don't think it's supposed to be a metaphor for the USSR.

And Rafiq, I would view that more as a liberal thing. The disenchantment with reality TV and that stuff and the Iraq war strikes me as more liberal than conservative.

It's not. In the U.S. Left "Liberals" are just conservatives.

[Rafiq]

Even the capital of Panem is names Capital. Lets face it, if Hunger Games was written in the USSR the censors would have had no issues with the books and have seen it in line with the party line.

So what if it's named "Capital"? There isn't a correlation between the capital of a country and capital as a force in the mode of production.

[Agent Ducky]

So what if it's named "Capital"? There isn't a correlation between the capital of a country and capital as a force in the mode of production.
I think the point they're trying to make is that the Capitol in the series does represent the bourgeoisie and the controllers of the means of production as well as the capital of the government and could symbolically represent something. or not. But the "Capitol" in this case is basically the bourgeoisie exploiting the districts full of proletarians.

[Psy]

So what if it's named "Capital"? There isn't a correlation between the capital of a country and capital as a force in the mode of production.
Yet it could be argued the name choice is to beat in the symbolization that Capital in Hunger Games represents capitalism.

[Anarpest]

Yet it could be argued the name choice is to beat in the symbolization that Capital in Hunger Games represents capitalism.It could be argued that, but we aren't English majors here, so let's try to stick within the boundaries of sense.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Yet it could be argued the name choice is to beat in the symbolization that Capital in Hunger Games represents capitalism.

Lest you bring evidence that the author has any socialist inclinations, I think you should avoid these sort of silly extrapolations. A capital is simply the seat of a nation state. The only thing about the authors politics I've seen was some moronic commentary that went along the lines of "I saw reality TV and then Iraq war coverage and I was like omg world is sick I going to write a book with children fighting as the great spectacle because reality TV and war-coverage are spetacles--".

[Althusser]

It seems that some people are mad that some of the main characters in the movie are black. They're venting their racial frustration on twitter. http://jezebel.com/5896408/racist

[ArrowLance]

In canada they force us to read the first one for gr. 9 english... the horror. glad i'm not in grade 9 when the movie came out because it's a fucking field trip this year or compulsory I dunno i'm pissed that i can't ignore this, it's everywhere

Who the fuck complains about a field trip to go see a movie in grade school?

[Agent Ducky]

It seems that some people are mad that some of the main characters in the movie are black and are venting their racial frustration on twitter. http://jezebel.com/5896408/racist

Fuck those people. Okay, I was a little bit surprised to see the Lenny Kravitz character being black but WHY IS THAT A PROBLEM? >.<

[#FF0000]

It seems that some people are mad that some of the main characters in the movie are black and are venting their racial frustration on twitter. http://jezebel.com/5896408/racist

yo what i think is most interesting is that these guys didn't read the one line that mentioned their skin color, apparently. they just thought they were white by default.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Because the notion that our culture is being "tainted" with showbiz rhetoric is conservative in nature.

In the book, the games are clearly a tool for maintaining a corrupt society, not the cause of tainting an otherwise potentially decent society. If anything the liberal attitudes that may have gone into the set-up of the book would be more like the idea that "spectacle" is used to distract and numb the population. Although I think that the book is more nuanced than that too since most of the people in the district DON'T want to watch the games and don't want to cheer it on, but are forced to watch. I think the narrator says something like the games are a reminder that the districts are helpless.


Of she (author) made district 13 look like the USSR, it's just orwellion cold war "Individualism" waa waa.

First, why would anyone who wasn't an insane Tea-Partier make a sci-fi novel saterizing a system that went out of existence 20 years before the book was written. Satire and Sci-Fi satire is always about the present society; exaggerating aspects that are common and generally invisible to us in everyday life, taking things to an extreme logical conclusion, or showing sharp contrasts to put our present society in relief.

She made it look like coal-mining Appalachia because it is set in Appalachia. The main feature of this society in the book is inequality, not government control in a nanny-state sense. The priorities of the system are messed up in the book where everyone is going hungry while people in the capital have upper-class accents, and are obsessed with fashion and staying thin and literally have no idea about the conditions which produce the wealth they enjoy. The concerns of the main character are very material (food, avoiding repression, survival) in nature whereas the "softer" son of the owners of a baker shop (the book actually talks about how the miners and the shop-owners were different in their outlook - and how her mom was socially higher than her dad because her mom's parents owned a shop and how it was a sacrifice for her to marry a miner) are more, well liberal and idealistic.

The book is not a "socialist" book, it's not an allegory for Capital and if it was and the author was a socialist, that would be a little disappointing. I think the book is clearly populist and the concern of the distopian aspects in the book are not "big government" or "big business" but more generally about how unjust systems are accepted and how rulers make people accept these things as at least unavoidable: creating social divisions, then forcing a divided population to compete, direct repression, deprivation. The aspects in the book about how populations are made to accept an order as "natural" or irreversible might be applied to the US, USSR, Egypt or any modern society, because all class societies do this to a certain extent. As a result partisans can say well this looks like North Korea, or this looks like the US. But I think if you don't just look at the governmental aspect, but of then what life is like for the districts, I think it's clearly talking about inequality and the division between haves and have-nots - I think it's clearly it's more about the US, than USSR.

Regardless of what the author's intent, I don't see how anyone would be able to look at the books popular resonance at a time of "99% vs. 1%" sentiment and not see it as a comment about inequality and popular passivity or resignation.

[Psy]

First, why would anyone who wasn't an insane Tea-Partier make a sci-fi novel saterizing a system that went out of existence 20 years before the book was written. Satire and Sci-Fi satire is always about the present society; exaggerating aspects that are common and generally invisible to us in everyday life, taking things to an extreme logical conclusion, or showing sharp contrasts to put our present society in relief.

Many Japanese sci-fi still satirizes imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, for example the Principality of Zeon are space Nazis and the Keron Empire in Keroro Gunsou is a spoof of Imperial Japan. Lets not forget the Ring of Red Japanese science fiction game that came out in 2000, that had an alternate history of the USSR occupying part Japan after WWII and Japan being divided into a north and south like Korea

Thus many people have satirized systems that went out of existence more then 20 years prior.

[Agent Ducky]

Many Japanese sci-fi still satirizes imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, for example the Principality of Zeon are space Nazis and the Keron Empire in Keroro Gunsou is a spoof of Imperial Japan. Lets not forget the Ring of Red Japanese science fiction game that came out in 2000, that had an alternate history of the USSR occupying part Japan after WWII and Japan being divided into a north and south like Korea

Thus many people have satirized systems that went out of existence more then 20 years prior.
Yeah but something tells me Suzanne Collins wasn't aiming for satire of the USSR here.

[R_P_A_S]

our class enemy is the bourgeoisie. Corporations are just another means of their class rule. If you "remove corporations", you haven't hit the root of the problem.

It's basically social democratic liberalism.

Or, you can interperate it as libertarian horse shit.

ftw!:d

[Agent Ducky]

I don't understand the whole point of this thread. Rafiq admits to not having seen the movie and really demonstrates knowing next to nothing about the series. Because if you knew the series, you'd know it's not "corporatephobia". Corporations/removing corporations aren't mentioned. The ruling entity in the series is a combination of the state and the bourgeoisie. The message really isn't specific to any political ideology, which is why everyone keeps speculating. Somehow I don't think libertarian capitalism fits the bill though, it's not just about "big government."
People who really don't know shit about this series need to stop passing judgement. I think this is a bunch of reactions to other people's interpretations of the series (like FOX News) and then blaming it on the series.

[Pretty Flaco]

wow. "fuck the hunger games" really?

[Franz Fanonipants]

yo what i think is most interesting is that these guys didn't read the one line that mentioned their skin color, apparently. they just thought they were white by default.

the extremely large scholastic books print was just too much so they skipped over every other line unfortunately

[Psy]

Yeah but something tells me Suzanne Collins wasn't aiming for satire of the USSR here.
For District 13 we see what can easily be painted as representing the USSR, others did this better like Robotopia in Asro Boy but you can still see District 13 following in the footsteps of the USSR.

[Ocean Seal]

Now after watching both Battle Royale and the Hunger Games, I have to say that they were both about equal quality. Battle Royale was more scenic, less cheesy, and the process of the games was better, but Hunger Games started off better, and at moments seemed to be actually good, rather than simply hilarious in the moments that counted.

I will say this, I think that the political conclusions stretch a bit. However, the capitol does resemble some kind of fusion between a spectacle surrounded society and fascism. I would argue that this isn't some kind of polemic against the left, but it is cheap big government phobia (at least from the first book). But you know what, the Hunger games did what it was intended to do, it was pretty fun to watch.
TL:DR; I liked the hunger games, not for politics, but for cheap entertainment.

[Jimmie Higgins]

For District 13 we see what can easily be painted as representing the USSR, others did this better like Robotopia in Asro Boy but you can still see District 13 following in the footsteps of the USSR.Really? I just don't see where people are concluding this from. Is Matewan about the USSR? District 13 seemed like the old coal company town - and in the book there are class distinctions between the shop keepers and the miners... if it were some held-over anti-USSR allegory, I'd imagine it would be the officials in the district who are viewed as "soft" and having an easier life. They have the town mayor in the book and his daughter is kind to the main character, so I really didn't get the sense of the kind of ideological party-bureaucrat nepotism and elitism that you generally see in cold-war era Sci-Fi allusions to the USSR. What you had instead was general fear and hopelessness which is just a general trope in any sci-fi about totalitarian distopian societies.

I don't think the economic system is the issue for the author in this book, just the effects of oppression and inequality.

[Anarpest]

Who the fuck complains about a field trip to go see a movie in grade school?

Well, I'm sure that there are some people who have to go and watch films like Twilight, and there are more enjoyable things, like Mathematics busywork.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

God, its fucking fiction, gtfo, if you guys need to get all your values from fiction, go read the bible, or a book on 3rd worldism,
The first book was good. The second was decently good, the third was worth burning it was so bad. Seriously guys, grow up.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

God, its fucking fiction, gtfo, if you guys need to get all your values from fiction, go read the bible, or a book on 3rd worldism,
The first book was good. The second was decently good, the third was worth burning it was so bad. Seriously guys, grow up.

It's not about a need to 'get all our values from fiction'. It's about developing an understanding that mainstream literature and film is simply a platform for bourgeois values and works to lull the masses into acceptance of the status quo. The culture industry is as much a means of production as the automotive industry with management and editors who direct the flow of the workers' labour for their own profit. We need to seize control of that industry as much as we need to seize the factories and the farms.

[28350]

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/04/whats_wrong_with_the_hunger_ga_1.html

Last two paragraphs for the lazy:

That's why The Hunger Games is such a diabolical head fake. Forget about it being entertaining, which I concede it is. It has managed to convince everyone that a passive character whose main strength is that she thinks a lot of thoughts and feels a lot of feelings, but who ultimately lets every decision be made by someone else-- that is a female hero, a winner. You wouldn't allow yourself to like a story where the woman lacks agency, so it's clothed in a vampire story or a female Running Man so it sounds like she's making things happen. Or, if you prefer, in order to allow you to like an anti-feminist story, it is necessary to brand it as a vampire story or a female Running Man. Regardless of how you phrase it, the purpose is to get you to like this kind of a story. It wants you to think this is the next step in female protagonists. But it's a trick: nothing has changed since the royal ball.

That these "adolescent girl" stories-- Twilight and THG-- have women who are essentially lead by men, circumstance, and fate-- whose main executive decision is "do I love this guy or that guy"-- is a window on our culture worth discussing. When you have a daughter, your first question should be, "how is the system going to try to crush her?" and plan accordingly. This story's answer is, "no matter what happens, just talk a lot and it'll sort itself out." That Jezebel is distracted by the racial angle here strikes me as an unconsciously deliberate avoidance of the larger issue. Oh, the audience is racist, that's the problem.

[Psy]

Really? I just don't see where people are concluding this from. Is Matewan about the USSR? District 13 seemed like the old coal company town - and in the book there are class distinctions between the shop keepers and the miners... if it were some held-over anti-USSR allegory, I'd imagine it would be the officials in the district who are viewed as "soft" and having an easier life. They have the town mayor in the book and his daughter is kind to the main character, so I really didn't get the sense of the kind of ideological party-bureaucrat nepotism and elitism that you generally see in cold-war era Sci-Fi allusions to the USSR. What you had instead was general fear and hopelessness which is just a general trope in any sci-fi about totalitarian distopian societies.

I don't think the economic system is the issue for the author in this book, just the effects of oppression and inequality.
That is because it is not a image of the bureaucratic USSR, but one of revolution in a bottle. Not all fictional works project the USSR in a negative light, for example Robotopia in Astro Boy had no bureaucratic element but made nods to the USSR with the robots viewing Robotopia as a symbol of what can be achieved by robots and humanity fearing Robotopia simply because it represents a better live for robots.

[Robespierres Neck]

i liked it better when it was called battle royale

Yeah, I thought the same thing.

[MotherCossack]

bejesus and begorrah!
what are you lot like?
it were a kids film is all!
i took me 4 nippers tonight to see it.
[including the good man colonel cossack]
made our own popcorn....[as always]
sat middle of front row...[as always]
watched a mad trailer for an upcoming flick...... about salmon fishing in the arabian desert... with that scottish actor with a moterbike who played obi one can obi in the later star wars films.

something insane like a super rich sheik wants to fish in his huge desert back yard so they dig a hole, make a big loch, fill it with water and tempt the daft fish to all swim down there for a change of scene!
what a jolly good notion, i say, what!
it certainly looks like one of the worst, most idealised misrepresentations of real life.... ever.
not quite a sharply observant, cutting edge satire exposing the hypocracy and double standards of human existance.

oops wrong film....
hunger games.....
the girls loved it to bits..... but then they are 6, 11 and 13! the kernal was suitably restrained and very, very slightly critical... as one would expect...
but... hey... it werent a classic deconstruction of any political anything....
just a film from a book that was done okish... could have been better....but pleased it's target audience....

[Red Commissar]

Really? I just don't see where people are concluding this from. Is Matewan about the USSR? District 13 seemed like the old coal company town - and in the book there are class distinctions between the shop keepers and the miners... if it were some held-over anti-USSR allegory, I'd imagine it would be the officials in the district who are viewed as "soft" and having an easier life. They have the town mayor in the book and his daughter is kind to the main character, so I really didn't get the sense of the kind of ideological party-bureaucrat nepotism and elitism that you generally see in cold-war era Sci-Fi allusions to the USSR. What you had instead was general fear and hopelessness which is just a general trope in any sci-fi about totalitarian distopian societies.

I don't think the economic system is the issue for the author in this book, just the effects of oppression and inequality.

That's District 12 you are describing, which is yes, a coal-driven place. District 13, iirc, is the district that got bombed out by the Capitol. I've not read the books but from what I've looked up they basically all went underground in exchange for standing down against the state during their rebellion. The whole life of the people there is described as pretty regimental- they even have their daily schedules put on their arms somehow. They're all told what to do and when to do it presumably for the 'greater good' of the District's survival, and are expected to follow through as such. I'm not sure though I saw District 13 representative of the USSR, though.

[Agent Ducky]

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/04/whats_wrong_with_the_hunger_ga_1.html

Last two paragraphs for the lazy:


I think that interpretation is a little bit extreme (the focus on appearance I didn't see so much as something relating to gender roles as I saw it as revealing of how superficial the reality-TV aspect of the series could get and how fucked up that is).I think the lack of agency wasn't so much about gender so much as it was the fact that every single person in the story was being fucked by the story. Every last one of them, regardless of gender. Not just Katniss. The series itself is not the result of a Twilight-like "decision between two guys"...
Plus the author is only going off what happened in the first installment.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Ok, my bad on the district 13 issue - I was thinking of dist. 12, I've only read the first book and 13 is only mentioned as having been crushed after a rebellion.

I think that interpretation is a little bit extreme (the focus on appearance I didn't see so much as something relating to gender roles as I saw it as revealing of how superficial the reality-TV aspect of the series could get and how fucked up that is).I think the lack of agency wasn't so much about gender so much as it was the fact that every single person in the story was being fucked by the story. Every last one of them, regardless of gender. Not just Katniss. The series itself is not the result of a Twilight-like "decision between two guys"...
Plus the author is only going off what happened in the first installment.I thought so too. I think there's a world of difference between Hunger Games and Twilight as far as the two protagonists go. The main feature of the protagonist (if she even deserves that categorization) in Twilight is that she wants to be taken out of her hum-drum life (which aside from a divorse seems to be a relatively well-off petty-bourgoise life - her father being town Sherriff and her mom being - a professor or something - I'm not sure). Specifically she wants a man to do this and goes on and on in the books about how she only feels secure in the arms of this or that man.

Every aspect of that book's content is blatantly anti-feminist and conservative. In fact the first I had ever heard of the book series was from an article called "the Anti-Buffy" in a feminist website.

Katniss is almost the exact opposite of the character in Twilight. Her main motivating factor is survival and because of this she sees romantic love not to mention friendship as a liability at best. She is only interested in protecting herself and her family and does not want to rely on other people. In the course of the first book she has to confront this by actually becoming friends with some of the other contestants even though the whole game is set-up to prevent this. The romance she has in the games is completely resisted by her and is actually not her desire, but part of the game-playing (though it's clear that while she is faking a romance she is also conflicted about it). So rather than being the point of her life, romance is the furthest thing from her concerns and lowest of her priorities. She is given the option of running off to live with a hunk in the very first chapter, but she rejects this. That offer is what the character from Twilight hopes throughout the entire book while the vampire hunk tells her, "no, not yet, we can do that when I say it's time to run-off together".

Granted, again, I have only read the first book and there are some romance elements which may lead to a much more conventional teen-romance situation later, but I thought that it was interestingly subversive to have a romance subplot that is both titillating to the reader, but ultimately actual a trick by the ruling class in that world and a performance. They have the romance despite their own desires (though the boy obviously does have actual feelings) for the benefit of the ruling class because that romance is expected of them by the larger society. After that first book I think that Katniss is one of the more proactive and interesting female protagonists in action movies over the last decade. Much better than the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (at least the US movie version which present her toughness as just an emotional barrier when she really secretly wants a male father figure to protect her).

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's not about a need to 'get all our values from fiction'. It's about developing an understanding that mainstream literature and film is simply a platform for bourgeois values and works to lull the masses into acceptance of the status quo. The culture industry is as much a means of production as the automotive industry with management and editors who direct the flow of the workers' labour for their own profit. We need to seize control of that industry as much as we need to seize the factories and the farms.

I think this is a crude way to look at the contradictions of art in capitalist society. It is not "simply" a platform for these (capitalist) values - at least not in content. The content of art in capitalist, or class society in general, are much more fluid than the way the arts are organized and the forms they take under the hegemony of whatever ruling system.

The form of the arts is inherently and unalterably linked in our society to the relations of production in society. So arts in feudalism were attached to the caste hierarchy and while many artists snuck in secular or even subversive content into their content, the forms they had to use were always stuck to the assumptions of feudal society. In fact more modern forms of art that reflect capitalist relations developed sometime after those relations had been pretty well established: the novel, art galleries and dealers, popular theater and so on.

So in form all art today is capitalist in nature. In content there's much more of a range. For one thing there are some art forms with relatively low cost for practice and exaction so this does allow some people to develop their skills and make art with truly subversive themes and content, also if there is radicalization in society, then art will begin to reflect that or be seen and "untrue" and without real meaning and will then loose it's "art-ness" and be seen as merely propaganda.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

Never been a fan of Hollywood, not since McCarthyism.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

The first I heard of Twlight was from Glenn Beck.

[Agent Ducky]

Granted, again, I have only read the first book and there are some romance elements which may lead to a much more conventional teen-romance situation later...

Not really. And as for the "decisions" that the review that RedIsaac posted, I fell asleep thinking of instances (in just the first book) where Katniss made her own decisions. It wasn't always killing other tributes, no. But she took the wheel whenever she could, whenever she could give a "fuck you" to the system she's trapped in, she did. Having read the later books the review really doesn't hold water. Yes, at one point she is being used as part of a bigger scheme. But when she finds out, she resents this and tries to take matters into her own hands as much as she can. I think the whole series itself does well in moving beyond gender roles. One could argue that Peeta is more traditionally feminine in certain ways than Katniss. The President of District 13 who is depicted as cold and calculating is female.

[Rafiq]

Never been a fan of Hollywood, not since McCarthyism.

So you don't watch any "Hollywood" movies because you're ideologically threatened?

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

So you don't watch any "Hollywood" movies because you're ideologically threatened?
I'm not threatened ideologically by the films of Hollywood. I don't watch them because who controls the media and their subliminal messages they subject their viewers too. It's the same reason I don't observe FOX news.

[KurtFF8]

It seems my analysis of hunger games is quite different from some other RevLeft folks

From the Left Film Review:
The Hunger Games (2012) (http://leftfilmreview.net/2012/04/04/the-hunger-games-2012/)

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm not threatened ideologically by the films of Hollywood. I don't watch them because who controls the media and their subliminal messages they subject their viewers too. It's the same reason I don't observe FOX news.Lol, FOX is all liminal and no sub.

[Jimmie Higgins]

It seems my analysis of hunger games is quite different from some other RevLeft folks

From the Left Film Review:
The Hunger Games (2012) (http://leftfilmreview.net/2012/04/04/the-hunger-games-2012/)

I also thought that the movie took out much of the bite from the book even while maybe leaving the teeth. Some of this was simply toning down the content for a visual medium and a film targeted to young people, but also I think it has to do with presenting a much more "black and white" version of oppression and resistance.

I think it's much more subversive in the book when oppression is shown as more normalized. When it's all gun-thugs and 1984-style set designs and bleak desolate mining towns compared to merely impoverished and downtrodden people, I think it lessens the social satire because it becomes about this outlandishly oppressive system rather than a system where people accept they can;t do anything about oppression - like in our world most of the time.

[Princess Luna]

my biggest problem with the movie is it's lack of originality, the idea of a bunch of people running around the wilderness, killing each other for public entertainment has been done to death. All the Hunger Games does is dress it up differently and even then the movie does a horriendus job at explaining the backstory to the games and the world in general. And the "evil" government is so cliche
Eagle/Hawk for emblem: Check
Special hand salute: Check
Scene with guards marching towards a group of protesters in block format, with their weapons raised, and no expressions on their faces: Check
No motivation beyond being evil, and doing evil things that make no sense and in real life would back fire horribly and turn the population against you: Check
Only time they divulge from the Cliche, is the fact the leader is a president.

[Agent Ducky]

No motivation beyond being evil, and doing evil things that make no sense and in real life would back fire horribly and turn the population against you: Check
Only time they divulge from the Cliche, is the fact the leader is a president.
Motivation: Keeping their privileged seat and instilling utter terror within the populace. The population was basically against them. So they turned the "doing evil things" up so people, while having anti-government sentiments, would be scared absolutely shitless to do anything.