Racism is a complex matter

[Elysian]

Many western leftists have a black and white view of racism, but I feel it's more complicated. There are two kinds, individual and institutional. The latter is the only thing western leftists can think of, but for me the former matters.

As a nonwhite person, an Indian, I've experienced more racism from so-called nonwhites (Muslims, even non-Arab Muslims, have been the worst in this regard followed by Asians, Indians, blacks etc.) than I have from 'whites', both in India and overseas. I've even been discriminated against by fellow Indians in favor of white folks once. All this is NOT institutional but individual.

So what I am trying to convey is that racism that happens on a social or individual level is far worse than the institutional kind, because the latter is merely favoritism toward one race rather than blind hate or malice or prejudice against another. This institutional racism allegedly practiced by whites is actually quite harmless, and the real danger for a guy like me comes from fellow nonwhite racism, which is personal and therefore that much more dangerous.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Yeah, I agree with you.

What do you think about capitalism and racism? I don't agree with those that believe the capitalist system itself creates racism but I do believe it uses pre-existing prejudices to divide the working class.

[NewLeft]

Many western leftists have a black and white view of racism, but I feel it's more complicated. There are two kinds, individual and institutional. The latter is the only thing western leftists can think of, but for me the former matters.

As a nonwhite person, an Indian, I've experienced more racism from so-called nonwhites (Muslims, even non-Arab Muslims, have been the worst in this regard followed by Asians, Indians, blacks etc.) than I have from 'whites', both in India and overseas. I've even been discriminated against by fellow Indians in favor of white folks once. All this is NOT institutional but individual.

So what I am trying to convey is that racism that happens on a social or individual level is far worse than the institutional kind, because the latter is merely favoritism toward one race rather than blind hate or malice or prejudice against another. This institutional racism allegedly practiced by whites is actually quite harmless, and the real danger for a guy like me comes from fellow nonwhite racism, which is personal and therefore that much more dangerous.
this post suffers from a legacy of british imperialism. you're willing to overlook white privilege? that's why you're failing to see that structural racism produces "personal" racism. interminority racism is bullshit.

[#FF0000]

Many western leftists have a black and white view of racism, but I feel it's more complicated. There are two kinds, individual and institutional. The latter is the only thing western leftists can think of, but for me the former matters.

Your view of racism, I think, is already way more simplistic than the folks I know who talk about it.


As a nonwhite person, an Indian, I've experienced more racism from so-called nonwhites (Muslims, even non-Arab Muslims, have been the worst in this regard followed by Asians, Indians, blacks etc.) than I have from 'whites', both in India and overseas.No one denies that non-white people can be shitty to people on the basis of race, though.


This institutional racism allegedly practiced by whites is actually quite harmless, and the real danger for a guy like me comes from fellow nonwhite racism, which is personal and therefore that much more dangerous.meanwhile in the US black kids get shot for walking in a gated community while the police let the guy who did it go because it was 'probably self defense' and the schools are segregated in such a way that non-white people are given the most overcrowded and underfunded schools, basically setting the community up for failure and drop-outs.

You are out of your mind if you think that institutional racism is harmless.

p.s. racism isn't something that is 'practiced by whites' either.

[antiracist]

Racism is basically a mental disease, and institutional racism is the most dangerous.
You can get away from individual bigots, but not from a racist society.

[Elysian]

All I am saying is that institutional racism is impersonal, whereas the other kind is not. I don't care if a white person earns more money or gets more privilege, that's harmless compared to actively seeking to hurt members of other races. I can't believe people fail to see the difference. It is like this: A wants to be rich, so he may inadvertently hurt b while pursuing his dream. But if a hurts b for no reason other than pleasure, then we have a problem.

[Elysian]

Yeah, I agree with you.

What do you think about capitalism and racism? I don't agree with those that believe the capitalist system itself creates racism but I do believe it uses pre-existing prejudices to divide the working class.

You're right, capitalism doesn't create racism although it may use racism to divide workers. But one may also say that capitalism, aiming to get cheap labor, has been instrumental in diluting racism and spreading multiculturalism.

[Franz Fanonipants]

All I am saying is that institutional racism is impersonal, whereas the other kind is not. I don't care if a white person earns more money or gets more privilege, that's harmless compared to actively seeking to hurt members of other races. I can't believe people fail to see the difference. It is like this: A wants to be rich, so he may inadvertently hurt b while pursuing his dream. But if a hurts b for no reason other than pleasure, then we have a problem.

this is the best thing i read on revleft today

[Franz Fanonipants]

But one may also say that capitalism, aiming to get cheap labor, has been instrumental in diluting racism and spreading multiculturalism.

wait sorry no this is way better

[#FF0000]

All I am saying is that institutional racism is impersonal, whereas the other kind is not. I don't care if a white person earns more money or gets more privilege, that's harmless compared to actively seeking to hurt members of other races. I can't believe people fail to see the difference. It is like this: A wants to be rich, so he may inadvertently hurt b while pursuing his dream. But if a hurts b for no reason other than pleasure, then we have a problem.

No it's not harmless. Making an entire group of people de-facto second class citizens is not harmless. Nor is it impersonal. Structural racism might sound like a big-picture sort of thing but on the ground in every day life it looks virtually the same as racial bigotry on the individual level. Ask the kids in Tottenham who got stopped by the police every day if structural racism is harmless and impersonal. Ask the kids in California, where the drop-out rate for black students is 37%, if structural racism is harmless.

I mean holy shit, do you understand that the gap between white people and black people in terms of relative wealth and quality of life is directly because of structural racism?


You're right, capitalism doesn't create racism although it may use racism to divide workers. But one may also say that capitalism, aiming to get cheap labor, has been instrumental in diluting racism and spreading multiculturalism.

Except that's complete horseshit because racism arose in tandem with capitalism as a useful method to make artificial hierarchies between people seem justifiable and natural. Your country is a good example of this, where the British played different groups off of one another -- using Sikhs and other more 'martial' people as soldiers while turning away the 'effeminate' Bengalis.

[Ostrinski]

All I am saying is that institutional racism is impersonal, whereas the other kind is not. I don't care if a white person earns more money or gets more privilege, that's harmless compared to actively seeking to hurt members of other races. I can't believe people fail to see the difference. It is like this: A wants to be rich, so he may inadvertently hurt b while pursuing his dream. But if a hurts b for no reason other than pleasure, then we have a problem.So you think individual malice is more of a problem than mass scale structural oppression?


You're right, capitalism doesn't create racism although it may use racism to divide workers. But one may also say that capitalism, aiming to get cheap labor, has been instrumental in diluting racism and spreading multiculturalism.I like how you make a claim like "capitalism dilutes racism" and make no effort whatsoever to back it up. I have a question: have you been to the States?

[Minima]

Capital doesn't discriminate, exploitation is universal and so on... xenophobia is endemic to most ethnic groups - most immigrant chinese i have met are fairly racist towards black, hispanic and middle eastern ethnic groups, and homophobia is pretty rampant in china. so reverse racism is actually a pretty legit argument sorry folks.

I'd like to think that Capitalism dillutes racism by exploiting everyone and giving us a common beef, if only we could understand it that way - I love this line that a working class white american has more in common with a working class african-american then with a rich man from any race except I really don't know if that's true. probably more true of say chinese and indian factory workers.

[NewLeft]

Capital doesn't discriminate, exploitation is universal and so on... xenophobia is endemic to most ethnic groups - most immigrant chinese i have met are fairly racist towards black, hispanic and middle eastern ethnic groups, and homophobia is pretty rampant in china. so reverse racism is actually a pretty legit argument sorry folks.
lol reverse racism

[#FF0000]

Capital doesn't discriminate, exploitation is universal and so on... xenophobia is endemic to most ethnic groups - most immigrant chinese i have met are fairly racist towards black, hispanic and middle eastern ethnic groups, and homophobia is pretty rampant in china.

yup no one ever said that non-white people couldn't be bigots.


so reverse racism is actually a pretty legit argument sorry folks.
Nope.


I'd like to think that Capitalism dillutes racism by exploiting everyone and giving us a common beefno it exacerbates it. racism is endemic to capitalism and it is exploited to 'divide and conquer'. see: the 'welfare queen' myth that was thrown around when people want to cut welfare programs.

I mean, shit, whenever people talk about poor folks in America there is very often some racist bullshit going along with it, in my experience.


if only we could understand it that way - I love this line that a working class white american has more in common with a working class african-american then with a rich man from any race except I really don't know if that's truehave you never met a black person or something

[Minima]

have you never met a black person or something

actually i am pretty unworldly i spend most of my time indoors in books and talked to like a black person for the first time in Montreal when i was 19.

[Lynx]

Revleft is dominated by white boys which may explain the lack of discussion on individual acts of racism. Doesn't mean it isn't important.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Capital doesn't discriminate,It inherently discriminates between haves and have nots. Further dividing up the crumbs among the have-nots is often a strategy for the haves (or their representatives) to have people fight between themselves rather than find solidarity on a class basis which then makes exploitation more difficult.


exploitation is universal and so on... Since humans lived most of our existence without it, it would be hard to realistically argue that these kinds of exploitative systems are universal to humanity.
xenophobia is endemic to most ethnic groups This is anecdotal at best. Is some kind of bigotry and so on common to class societies, most definitely, but that doesn't mean that it is inherent in "ethnic groups" since the concept of an ethnic group is socially constructed; therefore even if it is "endemic" to all ethnic groups, then it is still a social construct... it would be like calling football hooliganism endemic in all football ultras. Most people who make this case use anecdotal evidence, but even here, you can find just as much anecdotal evidence in favor of people being suspicious of outsiders as there is evidence of groups of people being welcoming to outsiders. The modern european contact with Native American groups gives the best examples and there are as many cases of people welcoming europeans and being hostile to them... and those acting hostile, well maybe they heard something through the grapevine before the europeans came to their particular region.


most immigrant chinese i have met are fairly racist towards black, hispanic and middle eastern ethnic groups, and homophobia is pretty rampant in china. so reverse racism is actually a pretty legit argument sorry folks. Like I said, anecdotal. Many immigrant groups who come to the US are forced to compete with other ethnic groups and this causes tension and always has. Irish immigrants made an economic niche for themselves through becoming part of municipal organizations such as fire and police departments and used nepotism to help their relatives or people they knew from their home country find work - of course this causes material tensions for German or Italian immigrants who come later and find doors closed to them. But this racism is not exactly structural, it's a result of competition inherent to capitalism and often specific ethnic competition encouraged from the ruling class. It's not the result of groups feeling superior to others or whatnot, it's a result of competition caused by the conditions set up generally by capitalism and specifically by the ruling class.

Reverse racism is generally the idea that people from oppressed groups are bigoted and discriminating against the non-oppressed groups in society. In effect it is used by the right wing to argue that any attempt to address or reform racist structures is, itself, replacing one racism with another. It's not a very realistic view and is just right-wing propaganda. It's like when the politicians and the media cry "class war" if some extra tax break for the rich isn't passed. The rich aren't discriminated if they pay more taxes and Christians are the subject of reverse-discrimination when they aren't allowed to kick gay teachers out of public schools as much as they cry about how it's religious discrimination.


I'd like to think that Capitalism dillutes racism by exploiting everyone and giving us a common beef, if only we could understand it that way - I love this line that a working class white american has more in common with a working class african-american then with a rich man from any race except I really don't know if that's true. probably more true of say chinese and indian factory workers.In a way it creates the potential just as some of the conditions created by capitalism also make homosexual and full women's equality possible and of course the surplus created by modern capitalism has the potential to meet all worker's needs. But the class structure of the system and who controls it and for what purpose is a fetter on these possibilities. Yes, grouping people together as workers can create solidarity, but that's why the rulers always have some method for trying to divide the population. The wealth created by capitalism can meet all of our needs, so that's why our rulers have police and military in order to ensure that we don't try and do that ourselves.

[#FF0000]

actually i am pretty unworldly i spend most of my time indoors in books and talked to like a black person for the first time in Montreal when i was 19.

oh i see.

well yeah i don't know I live in a pretty diverse area where there's some ridiculous amount of different languages spoken and people get along fine.

idk i've seen individual displays of stunning ignorance but nothing that'd really make me think 'oh man people of different races just cant get along' except for maybe the fact that my area is a hotbed for neo-nazi bullshit. And all that really tells me is that there are a lot of racist old white people where i live.

[Minima]

I really actually meant something stupid like modern capitalism doesn't discriminate in it's exploitation, (ok actually it does) trade and market forces are generally blind to race among trading partners etc.

Wow that is a pretty good explanation of institutional racism under capitalism. I agree with you completely, I guess my explanation would be that I feel like there's alot mild racism typical between kids in highschool and constantly experience xenophobia from my asian friends and relatives regarding black and middle eastern people even in their 20's in vancouver. I always thought it wasn't a very strong argument to argue about this from my own experience, and that even these examples weren't even that big of deal in the scheme of things.

It's probably true that I conflate my idea of racism with a kind of middle class liberal view of prejudice or ignorance as a kind of racism. which kind of paves the way for all sorts of ridiculous arguments.

[Genghis]

Yeah, I agree with you.

What do you think about capitalism and racism? I don't agree with those that believe the capitalist system itself creates racism but I do believe it uses pre-existing prejudices to divide the working class.

I think capitalism reduces racism. That's because in a capitalist society, people care more about the color of money than the color of skin.

[NewLeft]

I think capitalism reduces racism. That's because in a capitalist society, people care more about the color of money than the color of skin.
are you saying that the process of getting 'money' doesn't matter?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

You're right, capitalism doesn't create racism although it may use racism to divide workers. But one may also say that capitalism, aiming to get cheap labor, has been instrumental in diluting racism and spreading multiculturalism.

...........okay, no it does not dilute racism and spread multiculturalism. It divides the workers by playing on prejudices that exist in a certain society. For example, to get cheap labor capitalism wouldn't want Mexican immigrants having full equality in the United States because having a class of people that are forced to work for low wages a. helps capitalists receive cheap labor and b. forces other workers to accept low wages, bad working conditions, etc. Capitalism in the United States doesn't want genuine immigration reform where there isn't a group of people exploited. Capitalists will use stereotypes of Mexicans to get other workers to take their anger out on that group of people rather than the capitalists who are really doing them harm.

For any idiot here who wants to "protect our borders" in the U.S. please read "They Take Our Jobs: and 20 Other Myths on Immigration" by Aviva Chomsky

[Franz Fanonipants]

I think capitalism reduces racism. That's because in a capitalist society, people care more about the color of money than the color of skin.

yeah because you can't profit off of racism

[Geiseric]

Capitalism thrives off racism. Racism has only existed, as it is today in terms of discriminating based on skin color, as long as the Capitalists needed excuses for the bullshit that was going on in Africa and the "3rd world."

You can profit off racism, it's called DIVIDING THE WORKING CLASS. Workers won't unite if they're alienated from each other.

[antiracist]

Correct.
However, I personally cannot but feel a little bit more tolerant (so to speak) towards racism of the oppressed.
Surely, that the Black Power movement had some racist excesses too.
Of course that doesn't mean that the whole social movement should be discarded or condemned, nor that (anti-white mostly) racism should be looked fondly at.
But it's hard not to blame them for perhaps getting a bit "over the line".

[Geiseric]

White people have gotten over the line many times more than you can imagine, and with much worse impact than any "counter racist excesses" of the black power movement.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Correct.
However, I personally cannot but feel a little bit more tolerant (so to speak) towards racism of the oppressed.
Surely, that the Black Power movement had some racist excesses too.
Of course that doesn't mean that the whole social movement should be discarded or condemned, nor that (anti-white mostly) racism should be looked fondly at.
But it's hard not to blame them for perhaps getting a bit "over the line".

What's over the line? Black people as a group have no social power to discriminate against whites. Individual black people might act hateful or unfairly to whites, but that's a qualitatively different than the racism faced by black people in the US.

Whites as a group do not oppress blacks, blacks as a group in no way oppress whites. What we have is capital oppressing the working class and part of the way our ruling class achieves this is by oppressing the black population. Individual whites who engage in bigotry against blacks (of course this is a very crude and simplified overview I'm attempting here, obviously there's all sorts of divisions other than black and white people in the US) obviously cause a harmful effect on that individual basis, but on the larger scale, what they are doing is helping re-enforce a whole larger system of black oppression by the US ruling class.

If an individual black or black organization acts unfairly against whites, then that is also harmful for those induviduals on that small level, but there is no larger social resonance - it begins and ends on a more or less individual basis.

Think about it this way, say that a black man and a white man both reach for a $100 bill on the ground and both say that it fell from their pocket and accuse the other owe of trying to steal it - who has more to loose when the cops come?

If the NOI opens a local coffee shop and hires only black people that's a response to the under-employment of blacks in general society, not an attempt to just fuck over some white people because they don't like them. Black power calls for economic control of the neighborhood or social reform movements for things like affermitive action are not an example of black people using discrimination to spite white people, but attempts to counter the existing social inequalities between black and white.

The problem with many of these attempts isn't that they are "extreme" or discriminatory against whites, but that they are petty-bourgeois attempts to deal with structural racial oppression. Black economic power merely manages a oppression - "let us be our own prison guards" (which has long been an attractive alternative for those who are pessimistic about the possibility to actually end racial oppression) - and social reforms are social reforms so they are good when they can help people organize and fight but they can not solve the underlying problems.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Surely, that the Black Power movement had some racist excesses too.

lol whut