My Street, My Body, My Right

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How many leers, how many unwanted comments and touches does it take to take away your right to walk on the same sidewalk, to ride the same subway, as anyone else?
http://mystreetmybodymyright.tumblr.com/post/19651731625

[Left Leanings]

This essay is an excellent intitiative.

One of the comments noted, how many women fail to make eye contact with men they pass in the street. Given the leering and sexualised remarks they have been subjected to by male strangers, it's not fucking surprising.

It is a form of oppression.

[arilando]

How many leers, how many unwanted comments and touches does it take to take away your right to walk on the same sidewalk, to ride the same subway, as anyone else?
Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Quail]

I've experienced plenty of unwanted attention in the streets by strangers, and it's not pleasant. It makes me feel quite vulnerable because I'm fairly short and I'm underweight. I find myself feeling vulnerable when I walk around alone and I automatically start sizing people up as potential attackers and figuring out how I'd get away. I think part of that is also due to my parents being overprotective when I was younger as well though.

[manic expression]

That link points out some real issues, and I find myself sympathetic to them. However, it's unclear what this is condemning or promoting. I think there needs to be a precise idea of what constitutes harassment and what doesn't, because no one really wants to have a society in which people don't approach other people out of fear of being thrown in that pot.

Some women usually dislike people they don't know communicating with them. Some women usually like certain types of communication. Some women like being catcalled. There's no universal standard, no one-size-fits-all behavior, and anyone who implies otherwise is lying to themselves. How does anyone know if something is "unwelcome" or not? They don't, because it's impossible to know.

Speaking more generally now, I note that something like PUA actively encourages men to not partake in the behavior described in the original link, and yet PUA is roundly condemned by feminists. That being the case, then can men only escape criticism by never approaching or looking at a woman they don't know? It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't paradox, it seems. On edit, I found this (http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/2011/03/men-can-stop-rape-men-can-stop-street-harassment/), which says men should never speak to a women they don't know, and sign up for speed dating instead. Um, yeah, let me get back to you on that. :rolleyes:

One last thing, saying "you look good to me" (http://www.ihollaback.org/about/) is not a form of violence. You might say that it's graceless and inappropriate, but it's not violence.


One of the comments noted, how many women fail to make eye contact with men they pass in the street. Given the leering and sexualised remarks they have been subjected to by male strangers, it's not fucking surprising.

It is a form of oppression.
Um, I don't think women not making eye contact with most of the men they pass on the street is evidence of oppression. I think it's what most people do in certain areas. In my experience, the level to which a certain area is comfortable with eye contact will be reflected in the behavior of both men and women.

[Quail]

Some women usually dislike people they don't know communicating with them. Some women usually like certain types of communication. Some women like being catcalled. There's no universal standard, no one-size-fits-all behavior, and anyone who implies otherwise is lying to themselves. How does anyone know if something is "unwelcome" or not? They don't, because it's impossible to know.

Out of general courtesy, don't you think it makes sense not to approach people you don't know in a way that they may find uncomfortable, insulting or intimidating?

[manic expression]

Out of general courtesy, don't you think it makes sense not to approach people you don't know in a way that they may find uncomfortable, insulting or intimidating?
That's a good rule of thumb, of course, but there's no way to know. Initiating a conversation in a very courteous manner may be unwelcome to one while a catcall may not be to the next. People are very different and even local customs aren't enough to establish a firm idea of how something is going to be taken.

[Ocean Seal]

Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As much as I love this joke, it really isn't appropriate here.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These jokes are not appropriate for this board. Please refrain from using such humor.

[RedAnarchist]

Over 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with others, this isn't an appropriate joke. It's fine in a Chit Chat thread, but not here.

As for the topic, one incident sticks in my mind. I was at college back in around 2003, and there was this woman walking near me, also a college student who was about my age at the time (seventeen), and these builders whistled at her, and she looked at them disgusted. This is a seventeen year old young woman, who isn't even an adult in the eyes of British law and society, and these idiots are whistling at her as if they have the right to annoy and objectify her.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Initiating a conversation in a very courteous manner may be unwelcome to one while a catcall may not be to the next.
Catcalls are never appropriate. Start with that.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This is a seventeen year old young woman, who isn't even an adult in the eyes of British law and society, and these idiots are whistling at her as if they have the right to annoy and objectify her.
Exactly. That's the root of the problem, a society where it's acceptable to objectify women is a society where it's unsafe to be a woman.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

One last thing, saying "you look good to me" is not a form of violence. You might say that it's graceless and inappropriate, but it's not violence.
Any harassment is a form of violence. If it makes someone feel unsafe, then it's a problem.

[manic expression]

Catcalls are never appropriate. Start with that.
As I said I don't think there's any universal standard for this sort of thing...different people take things different ways.


Any harassment is a form of violence. If it makes someone feel unsafe, then it's a problem.
I wish you took time to look at the link (a link from the article you posted)...it says saying "you look good to me" is violence, which it isn't.

[Firebrand]

Sometimes I wonder if half the problem isnt the way men behave but the way women are taught to fear men. Why should I be afraid of another human being simply because of their gender, yes some men attack women, but that is a tiny minority and lets be honest its not outside the realms of possibility for a woman to attack another woman. From an early age now we are taught "stranger danger", we are told that anyone we don't know is a potential threat especially if they are male. But the facts show that most cases of men attacking women or of adults attacking children are carried out by someone the victim knows so who does the fear of strangers really serve.

I think this fear that we are taught to have of strangers is a remarkably effective way for the ruling class to maintain control, because if we fear each other we dont communicate and it is in communication that their power starts to crumble.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I wish you took time to look at the link (a link from the article you posted)...it says saying "you look good to me" is violence, which it isn't.
I did read it. I agree with it. Harassment is a form of violence.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

As I said I don't think there's any universal standard for this sort of thing...different people take things different ways.
Catcalling is never appropriate. Quit trying to excuse bad behavior.

[manic expression]

I did read it. I agree with it. Harassment is a form of violence.
So saying to someone "you look good to me" is a form of violence?

Nonsense.


Catcalling is never appropriate. Quit trying to excuse bad behavior.
I wasn't aware someone appointed you the arbiter of public morality.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So saying to someone "you look good to me" is a form of violence? Nonsense.
If you say it to your female partner or date, it isn't. If you're randomly approaching women on the street and saying it to them, it can be construed as harassment, which is a form of violence.

Let me make it simple. A woman should be able to walk down a street without men harassing her.


I wasn't aware someone appointed you the arbiter of public morality.
I wasn't aware I had to ask a man for permission to criticize behavior that objectifies and harasses women.

[Quail]

That's a good rule of thumb, of course, but there's no way to know. Initiating a conversation in a very courteous manner may be unwelcome to one while a catcall may not be to the next. People are very different and even local customs aren't enough to establish a firm idea of how something is going to be taken.
Initiating polite conversation is treating the person as a human being, whereas catcalling is treating the person as a body. Don't play dumb. There is a clear difference between politely saying, "Hello," to someone and commenting on their body in a way that reduces them to a body.

[manic expression]

If you say it to your female partner or date, it isn't. If you're randomly approaching women on the street and saying it to them, it can be construed as harassment, which is a form of violence.

Let me make it simple. A woman should be able to walk down a street without men harassing her.
Sorry, but that's nonsensical. Saying "you look good to me" to someone you don't know isn't harassment at all, it's quite simply what it is, saying that someone looks good. In and of itself there's nothing wrong with it.

If "you look good to me" is violence, why not "wow, I like those shoes", too? What's the difference? If the standard is that we shouldn't say anything that could possibly be construed as harassment then no one can say anything at all. It's impossible to know what might be welcome or unwelcome until you say it...using your line of logic saying "hello" could be a violent act (unwanted attention -> construed as harassment -> violence).


I wasn't aware I had to ask a man for permission to criticize behavior that objectifies and harasses women.
If you want to criticize the behavior then criticize it. Simply saying it's wrong without explaining why isn't the same thing.


Initiating polite conversation is treating the person as a human being, whereas catcalling is treating the person as a body. Don't play dumb. There is a clear difference between politely saying, "Hello," to someone and commenting on their body in a way that reduces them to a body.
Saying someone "looks good" doesn't reduce them to a body. It's just one aspect of them, the only perceptible one at that juncture; there's no way to compliment someone you don't know on their taste in literature but you can talk about what you do know, which happens to be looks. Physical attraction is usually the first step in a relationship, so it's only natural that this might be commented upon. If someone says "nice car" to a stranger they're not reducing them to a car-owner.

Anyway, I think it's more complicated than "polite vs objectification", there are tons of shades of gray in terms of how to initiate a conversation.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Sorry, but that's nonsensical. Saying "you look good to me" to someone you don't know isn't harassment at all, it's quite simply what it is, saying that someone looks good. In and of itself there's nothing wrong with it.
No, there's nothing wrong with men approaching women unknown to them on the street to point out their sexual attractiveness. :rolleyes:

Catch a clue, Manic.

[Firebrand]

No, there's nothing wrong with men approaching women unknown to them on the street to point out their sexual attractiveness. :rolleyes:

Catch a clue, Manic.

What so people can't compliment strangers now. I mean both girls and boys approach randoms to comment on their sexual attractiveness. Usually in the hope that the conversation will lead to the possibilty of a date. This is how the world works, and if you are seriously bothered by someone walking up to you and saying you look good then you need to grow a thicker skin and learn how to take a compliment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This is how the world works, and if you are seriously bothered by someone walking up to you and saying you look good then you need to grow a thicker skin and learn how to take a compliment.
I've had men comment on how I look, only to follow it up with "can I see your breasts?", so don't tell me to grow a thicker skin about being approached by unknown men on the street. Lots of women have had bad experiences with being accosted in public, catcalls, etc. The onus shouldn't be on us to "grow a thicker skin."

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think if someone approached me at random and said I "looked good" than I would be a little creeped out... just saying.

[NewLeft]

Why is it that men feel comfortable catcalling women? Is it "patriarchy"? But isn't it also true that men have a visual form of attraction? Even if you're going to blame patriarchy, shouldn't it be a goal of feminists to educate men on how to approach women appropriately and not simply disapproving an expression of their sexuality?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Even if you're going to blame patriarchy, shouldn't it be a goal of feminists to educate men on how to approach women appropriately and not simply disapproving an expression of their sexuality?
There are plenty of men who can express their sexuality without harassing, disrespecting, or objectifying women. Street harassment should not be defended as "men expressing their sexuality." It's not.

[Avocado]

Just read the article. Unsettling.

[arilando]

If you say it to your female partner or date, it isn't. If you're randomly approaching women on the street and saying it to them, it can be construed as harassment, which is a form of violence.

Let me make it simple. A woman should be able to walk down a street without men harassing her.
So talking to people is harrasment? lol

[arilando]

No, there's nothing wrong with men approaching women unknown to them on the street to point out their sexual attractiveness. :rolleyes:
Well yeah that's right, it's only harrasment if someone continually bothers you if you have already made it clear that they contact is unwanted.

[manic expression]

No, there's nothing wrong with men approaching women unknown to them on the street to point out their sexual attractiveness. :rolleyes:
In and of itself, no, there really isn't, so long as the guy doesn't persist after it's clear she's not interested. Let's remember that lots of women have had good experiences with being approached on the street, it's a perfectly reasonable way to meet someone.


There are plenty of men who can express their sexuality without harassing, disrespecting, or objectifying women.You mean the ones signing up for speed dating, right?

[Lee Van Cleef]

In so far as the fact that you know nothing about a stranger aside from their appearance, that is true. However, there are better ways to approach someone than to just come out and be like, "Hey baby, I like what you got goin' on!"

I mean, I think it's kind of understood that you're approaching them because you find them attractive. It might be worth trying to talk about something else, and get a conversation going.

When the first thing out of your mouth is about their body, you're probably not going to get very far.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So talking to people is harrasment? lol
It can be. Take the example from the article, where a man told the young woman, "I like the way you show off them legs." That's harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Let's remember that lots of women have had good experiences with being approached on the street, it's a perfectly reasonable way to meet someone.
Would it be appropriate for a man to meet a woman in a work environment and comment on her sexual attractiveness? That would be considered harassment. Just because there aren't laws against it in the street, doesn't mean it's not harassment.

[manic expression]

In so far as the fact that you know nothing about a stranger aside from their appearance, that is true. However, there are better ways to approach someone than to just come out and be like, "Hey baby, I like what you got goin' on!"

I mean, I think it's kind of understood that you're approaching them because you find them attractive. It might be worth trying to talk about something else, and get a conversation going.

When the first thing out of your mouth is about their body, you're probably not going to get very far.
Yeah, I see that. Personally I don't comment on physical appearance first thing but others do and it can work. Just off the top of my head: "Hey, you look absolutely divine today, what's your name?" can get a conversation started if you say it right (it's not always what you say, but it's always how you say it).

But yeah I don't disagree, I guess it doesn't hurt to try to be a bit more creative anyway. :lol: The good thing is that guys who approach are willing to learn about what women like and don't like...if a certain behavior gets rejected 10/10 times they're going to change it up for the 11th and every time after that.

[manic expression]

Would it be appropriate for a man to meet a woman in a work environment and comment on her sexual attractiveness? That would be considered harassment. Just because there aren't laws against it in the street, doesn't mean it's not harassment.
I think it's inappropriate to wear shorts or a baseball hat in a work environment but I think it's perfectly appropriate to wear them on the street.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Did some people not even bother to read the original article or follow some of the links in it? Street harassment is a real concern, even when it's purely verbal.

[Luís Henrique]

Some kinds of male behaviour towards women really strike me as attempts to make women behave in a less sexualised way; they seem to mean "dress in a more conservative way, else..."

On the other hand, there certainly is an anti-sexual strain of pseudo-feminism, that confuses sexual freedom with freedom from sex, of which the article in the OP seems to me to be part of. I mean, what is the problem if someone stares at someone else? What can be ignored is by no means "violence" or oppression.

Luís Henrique

[NewLeft]

There are plenty of men who can express their sexuality without harassing, disrespecting, or objectifying women. Street harassment should not be defended as "men expressing their sexuality." It's not.
And women do not objectify men? It's not about defending harassment, but it is an expression of male sexuality. If I'm wrong, then please explain.

[arilando]

I think it's inappropriate to wear shorts or a baseball hat in a work environment
Why?

[Aeval]

I think it's inappropriate to wear shorts or a baseball hat in a work environment but I think it's perfectly appropriate to wear them on the street.

Did you seriously just compare catcalling to wearing shorts? :confused:

I think we're getting overly caught up in what words someone uses, it's not so much what someone says as how they say it. If you see someone in the street and find them attractive then sure, try talking to them, just be aware that they might not want to talk to you and if that's the case drop it. That isn't catcalling though; when an individual, or more usually group of men start yelling at a women about her appearance across the street, or making inappropriate comments they're not generally doing it so they can get a date. It's done to intimidate people and show off to their mates. Use a bit of common sense, check your body language and tone of voice, it's pretty obvious when you're trying to make a compliment compared to when you're trying to make people feel uncomfortable.

[manic expression]

Why?
It's usually frowned upon which was the idea. The real point is that some behavior is not OK in an office that's OK when it's outside an office. Trying to apply office standards of conduct to the entire public realm is nothing short of crazy.

[Ostrinski]

While I disagree with telling people how they should and shouldn't dress, I do think that if you dress provocatively then you should expect to be catcalled and the whole nine yards. There's nothing you can do about it.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

While I disagree with telling people how they should and shouldn't dress, I do think that if you dress provocatively then you should expect to be catcalled and the whole nine yards. There's nothing you can do about it.

That isn't what is being discussed though: the women being discussed in this thread are not wearing provocative clothing but instead everyday clothing.

[Ostrinski]

That isn't what is being discussed though: the women being discussed in this thread are not wearing provocative clothing but instead everyday clothing.My bad, I'm an ass.

[Firebrand]

I've had men comment on how I look, only to follow it up with "can I see your breasts?", so don't tell me to grow a thicker skin about being approached by unknown men on the street. Lots of women have had bad experiences with being accosted in public, catcalls, etc. The onus shouldn't be on us to "grow a thicker skin."

The onus is on every human being to get over themselves. Male or female it doesn't matter. If someone sees someone they think is attractive it is their right to go up to them and say so. It is the right of the person they have approached to tell them to piss off. If they don't piss off when told to then thats harrassment, otherwise its just someone complimenting a stranger.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

While I disagree with telling people how they should and shouldn't dress, I do think that if you dress provocatively then you should expect to be catcalled and the whole nine yards.
I strongly disagree. No woman should "expect" to be catcalled or harassed for any reason. Also, define "provocative." The woman who wrote the article that this thread about was harassed because a man thought jogging shorts were "provocative." Are you arguing that women should stay indoors or wear full body coverings when going outside if they don't wish to be harassed?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The onus is on every human being to get over themselves. Male or female it doesn't matter. If someone sees someone they think is attractive it is their right to go up to them and say so.
So you think it was appropriate for a man to compliment me and then ask to see my breasts? Just because I was walking down a public street?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It's not about defending harassment, but it is an expression of male sexuality. If I'm wrong, then please explain.
You're defending street harassment by arguing it's an expression of male sexuality. Go back, read the article I posted, and tell me how any of that is acceptable. We're not talking about a man simply introducing himself to a woman or saying "hello."

[NewLeft]

You're defending street harassment by arguing it's an expression of male sexuality. Go back, read the article I posted, and tell me how any of that is acceptable. We're not talking about a man simply introducing himself to a woman or saying "hello."
I am not arguing that it is "acceptable," I am merely point out the fact that comments like “you’re so sexy, baby” are expressions of male sexuality, even if they are unwarranted.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I am not arguing that it is "acceptable," I am merely point out the fact that comments like “you’re so sexy, baby” are expressions of male sexuality, even if they are unwarranted.
Fair enough, but I don't think they're inherently part of male sexuality, they're learned behavior.

[Revolutionair]

Initiating polite conversation is treating the person as a human being, whereas catcalling is treating the person as a body. Don't play dumb. There is a clear difference between politely saying, "Hello," to someone and commenting on their body in a way that reduces them to a body.

I tried talking about Freud, women thought I was a creepy nerd. I just treat a woman like a body without a head (while acting 100% confident), and I get positive feedback from people all around me.

What to do?

[Revolutionair]

We're not talking about a man simply introducing himself to a woman or saying "hello."

Of course we're not. A man tries that once, gets rejected, and after that tries things that do work.

[Revolutionair]

That isn't what is being discussed though: the women being discussed in this thread are not wearing provocative clothing but instead everyday clothing.

That is not completely true though:


I like the way you show off them legs
http://mystreetmybodymyright.tumblr.com/post/19651731625

It seems to me that this guy thought that the girl was looking for responces by dressing in a certain way. How could he have known that:


No, it’s just hot

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It seems to me that this guy thought that the girl was looking for responces by dressing in a certain way. How could he have known that:
I think the fact that he responded to "no, it's just hot" with "fuck you, *****" says it all about his motives being misogynist.

[Revolutionair]

I think the fact that he responded to "no, it's just hot" with "fuck you, *****" says it all about his motives being misogynist.

Couldn't it be, that he is putting himself out there, and then massively gets turned down? I would say that putting your whole confidence and self-esteem on the line, just to compliment a woman, does not make you a woman-hater.

edit:
Basically he's being told that he is not good enough for her, yet he tried.
Could you tell me how that fits in your misogyny-theory?

[Ostrinski]

I strongly disagree. No woman should "expect" to be catcalled or harassed for any reason. Also, define "provocative." The woman who wrote the article that this thread about was harassed because a man thought jogging shorts were "provocative." Are you arguing that women should stay indoors or wear full body coverings when going outside if they don't wish to be harassed?I'm saying you are not going to change human biology. Your next best bet is to set up some sort of totalitarian state apparatus to shoot people if they respond to their sexual urges.


So you think it was appropriate for a man to compliment me and then ask to see my breasts? Just because I was walking down a public street?Yes. And it is equally appropriate for you to tell them to go fuck themselves or stab them in the eye or do whatever you have to do

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Couldn't it be, that he is putting himself out there, and then massively gets turned down? I would say that putting your whole confidence and self-esteem on the line, just to compliment a woman, does not make you a woman-hater.

edit:
Basically he's being told that he is not good enough for her, yet he tried.
Could you tell me how that fits in your misogyny-theory?
A leering man approaches a young woman, deliberately makes contact with her body, and says "I like the way you show off them legs." The young woman, who is on the phone with her boyfriend, responds with "no, it's just hot," and walks away quickly. Man yells, "fuck you, *****." Could you tell me how that doesn't come across as misogyny?

Your interpretation is she implied he wasn't good enough for her, and in a fit of anguish, he called her a *****. Really? :rolleyes:

[NewLeft]

Fair enough, but I don't think they're inherently part of male sexuality, they're learned behavior.
It's a false dichotomy, as male sexuality is nothing by itself. If males are more visually attracted to women, that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. The men who are sexual harassing women are probably not getting laid, they are the undesirables.

[Revolutionair]

Could you tell me how that doesn't come across as misogyny?

I would assume that a misogynous man would simply call her *****, followed by 'all women are *****es'. That's something completely different from complimenting her.


Your interpretation is she implied he wasn't good enough for her, and in a fit of anguish, he called her a *****. Really? :rolleyes:

It is possible that he thought that she thought that she was too good for him. That's the first conclusion most people make when they get rejected.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm saying you are not going to change human biology. Your next best bet is to set up some sort of totalitarian state apparatus to shoot people if they respond to their sexual urges.
This has nothing to do with human biology. We all have sexual urges, but only some of us think we have the right to impose them on others without their consent.


Yes. And it is equally appropriate for you to tell them to go fuck themselves or stab them in the eye or do whatever you have to do
No, it's never appropriate for a man to approach a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts, but it is appropriate for a woman to use any means necessary to put an end to the harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Every time I see men defending this kind of behavior, I get more sympathetic to why some women choose separatist feminism. It's even worse when it's Leftist men doing it. What the fuck? I can't even get support from Leftist men for the idea that I as a woman should be able to walk down a fucking street without being harassed?

[Revolutionair]

This has nothing to do with human biology. We all have sexual urges, but only some of us think we have the right to impose them on others without their consent.

Imposing sexual urges implies rape, are we talking about rape?

[Revolutionair]

Every time I see men defending this kind of behavior, I get more sympathetic to why some women choose separatist feminism. It's even worse when it's Leftist men doing it. What the fuck? I can't even get support from Leftist men for the idea that I as a woman should be able to walk down a fucking street without being harassed?

You assume as much as the 'nice legs' guy.

[Ostrinski]

This has nothing to do with human biology. We all have sexual urges, but only some of us think we have the right to impose them on others without their consent.Not imposition, but proposition.

But I see that you consider yourself a libertarian. Again I ask, how do you plan on policing sexuality?


No, it's never appropriate for a man to approach a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts, but it is appropriate for a woman to use any means necessary to put an end to the harassment.Quit making sexuality more than it is. Sex is a basic human communication.

You're trivializing harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If males are more visually attracted to women, that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.
Even if we accept that males are more visually oriented, which I don't know is necessarily the case, is that relevant to street harassment? To me, it's about a learned behavior of how to treat women, and not primarily an issue of sexual attraction.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Again I ask, how do you plan on policing sexuality?
I don't see it as an issue of "policing sexuality," I see it as an issue of some men thinking women are objects who exist primarily or exclusively for their pleasure. I think capitalism and other systems of dominance (racism, sexism, heterosexism, etc.) need to be smashed as part of revolutionary struggle. We need to build a society where people aren't commodities or objects.


You're trivializing harassment.
When you've been alone on a street and someone bigger and stronger than you has demanded to see some part of your body for purposes of sexual gratification, we can talk about trivializing harassment.

[Ostrinski]

I don't see it as an issue of "policing sexuality," I see it as an issue of some men thinking women are objects who exist primarily or exclusively for their pleasure. I think capitalism and other systems of dominance (racism, sexism, heterosexism, etc.) need to be smashed as part of revolutionary struggle. We need to build a society where people aren't commodities or objects.True, socialist revolution will do away with patriarchy as a social relationship but it will not do away with sexual objectification. The only way to prevent people of all gender identifications from seeing other people as objects for sexual gratification is biological interference.


When you've been alone on a street and someone bigger and stronger than you has demanded to see some part of your body for purposes of sexual gratification, we can talk about trivializing harassment."Demanding" and "asking" are two completely different approaches. Demanding is indeed an imposition, a coercive measure, an act of dominance. Asking is honest. Being up front with your intentions, I feel, is much more honest than "wooing," or in other words seduction, which is manipulation, which is coercion, which implies a dominant/submissive dynamic.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

True, socialist revolution will do away with patriarchy as a social relationship but it will not do away with sexual objectification. The only way to prevent people of all gender identifications from seeing other people as objects for sexual gratification is biological interference.
Sexual objectification is when a person is regarded primarily or exclusively as an object for sexual gratification, which in our society has traditionally been applied to women as a class, and isn't the same thing as wanting to have sex with those we find attractive.


"Demanding" and "asking" are two completely different approaches. Demanding is indeed an imposition, a coercive measure, an act of dominance. Asking is honest. Being up front with your intentions, I feel, is much more honest than "wooing," or in other words seduction, which is manipulation, which is coercion, which implies a dominant/submissive dynamic.
Street harassment is always an imposition. It's almost always a stranger, or a group of strangers, harassing a woman. It's not saying "hello" to someone you're interested in, or saying "you look nice today" to someone you know. It's catcalling, making sexual comments, asking to see a woman's breasts or sexual organs, making unwanted physical contact, visibly leering at women, stalking women, etc.

[Ostrinski]

Sexual objectification is when a person is regarded primarily or exclusively as an object for sexual gratification, which in our society has traditionally been applied to women as a class, and isn't the same thing as wanting to have sex with those we find attractive.That is the bourgeois character of sexual objectification, the social form that it takes in capitalist society. But that doesn't take into account the biological factor. As far as viewing people as objects to be used for sexual gratification, men do it to women, women do it to men, men do it to men, and women do it to women. There is nothing wrong with mutual objectification.


Street harassment is always an imposition. It's almost always a stranger, or a group of strangers, harassing a woman. It's not saying "hello" to someone you're interested in, or saying "you look nice today" to someone you know. It's catcalling, making sexual comments, asking to see a woman's breasts or sexual organs, making unwanted physical contact, visibly leering at women, stalking women, etc.I don't disagree with any of this.

[Cirno(9)]

Good article. I think it's really worth it to show men what the everyday life is like for many women. I remember when I saw Black Swan and there was a scene where Natalie Portman's character and some old man were alone on the subway and he started rubbing his genitals while licking at her and I actually thought that was supposed to be some weird psycho-sexual dream sequence, I didn't realize that stuff like that actually happens everyday.


However I do have a question about a passage from one of the sites linked
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male-allies/how-to-talk-to-women/


Here are several things people can keep in mind to avoid being a harasser:
Do not assume all women are single, heterosexual or bisexual, or interested in male attention or in forming a relationship.
Differences or similarities in race, class, and age between you and the woman and the woman’s sexual orientation can cause her to interpret attention a certain way.

What is that part exactly supposed to mean? Obviously I understand the factual aspect but I hope it isn't saying that you should accommodate people that have classist or racist views.

[manic expression]

Every time I see men defending this kind of behavior, I get more sympathetic to why some women choose separatist feminism. It's even worse when it's Leftist men doing it. What the fuck? I can't even get support from Leftist men for the idea that I as a woman should be able to walk down a fucking street without being harassed?
Enough with the self-righteous indignation. Maybe you don't get much support from men on this because you're trying to twist yourself into pretzels to condemn something that's quite normal and reasonable behavior. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand, but shockingly enough, men want to meet women they find attractive and they're not going to engage in self-flagellation over it for your ideological satisfaction.

The real irony, though, is that many women like meeting men on the street too, and many women like getting compliments about how they look...anyone who says otherwise is either naive or incredibly self-deluded.


It's not saying "hello" to someone you're interested in, or saying "you look nice today" to someone you know. It's catcalling, making sexual comments, asking to see a woman's breasts or sexual organs, making unwanted physical contact, visibly leering at women, stalking women, etc.Apparently you forgot that you yourself previously asserted that saying "hello" can indeed be "harassment" so long as it can be construed as harassment. In effect, you were saying that any communication between strangers is "harassment" as soon as you deem it so. That way, you can equate very normal behavior with something like stalking, which I guess feeds the illusion that men are some enemy of women.

[#FF0000]

I didn't realize that stuff like that actually happens everyday.

Yeah. It really, seriously does happen way too often. Doesn't matter the age, doesn't matter what they're wearing, who they're with -- there are some serious fuckin' creepers out there.

And if someone can't strike up a conversation with or compliment a stranger without coming across as one of them then that's their problem, dogg.

[#FF0000]

Enough with the self-righteous indignation. Maybe you don't get much support from men on this because you're trying to twist yourself into pretzels to condemn something that's quite normal and reasonable behavior. I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand, but shockingly enough, men want to meet women they find attractive and they're not going to engage in self-flagellation over it for your ideological satisfaction.

man idk i read things like this and have a hard time believing you live in the real world. i mean clearly there is a difference between a compliment and harassment though the line is blurry and thin (and uh, pretty fuckin' subjective at times) but I think it is generally pretty easy to navigate that sort of thing. Frankly, though, I cannot think of a comment beyond something very vague like "oh you look great today" that doesn't come across as a little creepy - especially from a stranger who is just passing on the street.

Context is important though.


The real irony, though, is that many women like meeting men on the street too, and many women like getting compliments about how they look...anyone who says otherwise is either naive or incredibly self-deluded.Yo people can certainly compliment people without coming across as rapey and in fact do so all the time.



Apparently you forgot that you yourself previously asserted that saying "hello" can indeed be "harassment" so long as it can be construed as harassment. In effect, you were saying that any communication between strangers is "harassment" as soon as you deem it so. That way, you can equate very normal behavior with something like stalking. Except stuff like repetition is important to harassment. If you say "hello" to someone and they respond negatively, then you stop (feel free to be pissed about that being rude or whatever tho i guess). So saying 'hello' to someone with no intention of causing them distress just ain't harassment, even if it is unwelcome.

to be honest though, i don't even think explaining that should be necessary outside of a legal context to anyone who has had any social experience whatsoever. I think you're just being obtuse, frankly.


That way, you continue to justify your imagination of men as terrible people.yo i am a macho manly man w/ a lumberjack beard and everything and somehow I find myself agreeing with Danielle here more often than not on these things and I somehow never pick up this vibe that she hates men or something. why do you think this is?

EDIT:

Hey, uh, Manic could you give us an example of a comment that you think would constitute harrassment and one that would not?

[manic expression]

man idk i read things like this and have a hard time believing you live in the real world. i mean clearly there is a difference between a compliment and harassment though the line is blurry and thin (and uh, pretty fuckin' subjective at times) but I think it is generally pretty easy to navigate that sort of thing. Frankly, though, I cannot think of a comment beyond something very vague like "oh you look great today" that doesn't come across as a little creepy - especially from a stranger who is just passing on the street.

Context is important though.
I never said it was hard to navigate, I know it's not all that hard to navigate. The question is purely the misrepresentation of street interaction by certain parties. My interest here is that I don't like certain behaviors being unfairly characterized within the left for the purposes of convenience, and I think that's precisely what's happening, else we would see a lot more sensitivity to what you referred to as a blurry, subjective line between compliments and harassment. As it is, it's all thrown into the same pot and a quick look at the posts here will yield that conclusion.

Anyway, if you can't think of a comment that could initiate a conversation then I suppose it's not so easy to navigate after all.


Yo people can certainly compliment people without coming across as rapey and in fact do so all the time.I'm not sure what "rapey" means, but yeah I see where you're coming from I guess (ps sometimes people call things "rapey" just because they dislike the individual, the same behavior from someone else might very quickly cease to be "rapey"). The thing is that as soon as we say all "unwelcome" communication is harassment, we're lost because then any communication can be harassment, no matter how courteous or sensitive.


Except stuff like repetition is important to harassment. If you say "hello" to someone and they respond negatively, then you stop (feel free to be pissed about that being rude or whatever tho i guess). So saying 'hello' to someone with no intention of causing them distress just ain't harassment, even if it is unwelcome.

to be honest though, i don't even think explaining that should be necessary outside of a legal context to anyone who has had any social experience whatsoever. I think you're just being obtuse, frankly.Take it up with Danielle, because I've been trying to get that across for some time now.

And again, I don't get why you're referring to a certain requisite amount of social experience, I'm not in this thread because I'm worried that what I do is "harassment", I'm here because I object to other leftists putting normal activity in a bad light.


yo i am a macho manly man w/ a lumberjack beard and everything and somehow I find myself agreeing with Danielle here more often than not on these things and I somehow never pick up this vibe that she hates men or something. why do you think this is?I don't think it matters how you trim your facial hair, I think it matters that Danielle expressed sympathy with separatist feminists just because a few men had the nerve to disagree with her idea that any communication is harassment. It seems like men aren't deemed fit to disagree with a feminist, they're just supposed to nod unquestioningly. I take issue with that because it's not how these things are supposed to be discussed.

As for your question on examples of harassment, well that's really nebulous. I would say that actual harassment has to do with persisting after it has been made clear that it's not unwelcome, using abusive language (ie "fuck you *****") and physical groping.

[#FF0000]

My interest here is that I don't like certain behaviors being unfairly characterized within the left for the purposes of convenience, and I think that's precisely what's happening, else we would see a lot more sensitivity to what you referred to as a blurry, subjective line between compliments and harassment.

I don't think that's necessary because this entire thing is specifically about those comments that cross the line already.


As it is, it's all thrown into the same pot and a quick look at the posts here will yield that conclusion.

I dunno I'm pretty sure people understand that communication can be welcome as well as unwelcome.


Anyway, if you can't think of a comment that could initiate a conversation then I suppose it's not so easy to navigate after all.

No, I think it is -- I just think that it's nigh impossible to make a specific comment about a stranger's body without making that person uncomfortable. I mean, shit, even saying "you look good" to a stranger seems pretty off to me.



(ps sometimes people call things "rapey" just because they dislike the individual, the same behavior from someone else might very quickly cease to be "rapey").

Yeah because context is important. A compliment from a stranger might be awkward. A compliment from a friend or even acquaintance might be taken differently.

But what that mostly reminds me of is that horrendous dumb mess i hear about how 'she wouldn't mind if the guy was good looking!' which is total and absolute bullshit.


The thing is that as soon as we say all "unwelcome" communication is harassment, we're lost because then any communication can be harassment, no matter how courteous or sensitive.

But it literally can be as long as it is persistent and unwelcome. I mean come on you were a ickle baby once like all of us and you know just as well as all of us that the most annoying motherfucker on the playground was that kid who ate glue and would stand next to you "hi" all the time over and over again insisting that he wasn't doing anything when you told the teacher. you know this.

But also I think that intent does have something to do with it. No one's gonna get in trouble for a lapse in social grace.

Take it up with Danielle, because I've been trying to get that across for some time now.


I don't think it matters how you trim your facial hair, I think it matters that Danielle expressed sympathy with separatist feminists just because a few men had the nerve to disagree with her idea that any communication is harassment.

idk things like this hit close to home for some people. i don't consider myself a feminist really, I don't hang out with activists nor many people at all who call themselves feminists, but I do hang out with a lot of women and a lot of them confide in me and i dunno. I want to put this in a way that really sort of makes you understand how many people I'm talking about and how terrible the things they told me were without laying it on too thick or being dramatic but i don't really know how to. Either way, thinking back to the stories of the awful experiences my friends have told me about, hearing some tool whine about someone not appreciating their compliment sorta makes me want to join the lorena bobbitt fan club too to be honest.


It seems like men aren't deemed fit to disagree with a feminist, they're just supposed to nod unquestioningly. I take issue with that because it's not how these things are supposed to be discussed.


Man I don't know what to tell you. I've disagreed with feminists I know and had lively discussions without any major incident so.


As for your question on examples of harassment, well that's really nebulous. I would say that actual harassment has to do with persisting after it has been made clear that it's not unwelcome, using abusive language (ie "fuck you *****") and physical groping.

Well yes but the thing is I don't think anyone's saying that persistence isn't a part of harassment. Maybe that's something people need to be more clear about in the future because I seriously doubt anyone is calling to press charges on a person just because another person didn't like their compliment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

yo i am a macho manly man w/ a lumberjack beard and everything and somehow I find myself agreeing with Danielle here more often than not on these things and I somehow never pick up this vibe that she hates men or something. why do you think this is?
Manic has been trying to put me in the "man-hating feminist" box for awhile. It's pretty amusing, and I don't think any reasonable person would come to that conclusion about me.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It seems like men aren't deemed fit to disagree with a feminist, they're just supposed to nod unquestioningly. I take issue with that because it's not how these things are supposed to be discussed.
Maybe because some women are speaking from personal experience, and you just don't want to listen to women telling you some uncomfortable truths.

[manic expression]

I don't think that's necessary because this entire thing is specifically about those comments that cross the line already.
Where is that line? Exactly my point, that line is a very individual thing, and so we can't establish a line for everyone, everywhere, all the time.


I dunno I'm pretty sure people understand that communication can be welcome as well as unwelcome.
And that it's impossible to know what's welcome or unwelcome to a certain person at a certain time.


No, I think it is -- I just think that it's nigh impossible to make a specific comment about a stranger's body without making that person uncomfortable. I mean, shit, even saying "you look good" to a stranger seems pretty off to me.
There's a way to do it right, and of course there's a way to do it wrong. Sometimes a person won't be receptive to that sort of comment at all, but that isn't to say there are a lot of women who would be receptive to it depending on how it's said. "Hey, you lit up the room just then, I'm _____, what's your name?" That kind of thing doesn't always sound off to many people.


Yeah because context is important. A compliment from a stranger might be awkward. A compliment from a friend or even acquaintance might be taken differently.

But what that mostly reminds me of is that horrendous dumb mess i hear about how 'she wouldn't mind if the guy was good looking!' which is total and absolute bullshit.
She might still mind, she might not; it's up to her, not either of us, to decide that. However, just because one woman isn't interested, it doesn't mean it's never welcome.


But it literally can be as long as it is persistent and unwelcome. I mean come on you were a ickle baby once like all of us and you know just as well as all of us that the most annoying motherfucker on the playground was that kid who ate glue and would stand next to you "hi" all the time over and over again insisting that he wasn't doing anything when you told the teacher. you know this.

But also I think that intent does have something to do with it. No one's gonna get in trouble for a lapse in social grace.
I agree that persistence over the objections of a woman is not only folly but disrespectful and more importantly entering harassment-land. However, until there's a clear expression that she's uninterested, you can't really blame the guy for persisting (unless he's yelling abusive language at her, but that goes without saying).


idk things like this hit close to home for some people. i don't consider myself a feminist really, I don't hang out with activists nor many people at all who call themselves feminists, but I do hang out with a lot of women and a lot of them confide in me and i dunno. I want to put this in a way that really sort of makes you understand how many people I'm talking about and how terrible the things they told me were without laying it on too thick or being dramatic but i don't really know how to. Either way, thinking back to the stories of the awful experiences my friends have told me about, hearing some tool whine about someone not appreciating their compliment sorta makes me want to join the lorena bobbitt fan club too to be honest.
I hear you. My perspective on this goes a few ways, but most importantly I think you're getting the negative perception of their experiences when that's not the only one. For instance, women complain about guys trying to pick them up at bars but they still go home with them from time to time, which is probably why some guys decide to try to pick up women at bars. Your perspective is valid, but there is another side to it I think.

But I'm just curious, do you think I'm whining that someone didn't appreciate my comment? Haha, not at all, I'm only saying that women do appreciate approaches and that feminists are completely cross-eyed for trying to define that as "harassment".


Man I don't know what to tell you. I've disagreed with feminists I know and had lively discussions without any major incident so.
Maybe it's the beard...no just kidding. Look, I admit that I can be bombastic when it comes to politics but I do think that feminists have a talent for writing-off anyone who disagrees (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddgkEg2XSA). According to her, you are a bigot because you don't consider yourself a feminist. Crazy, right? This is why I lost patience with feminism awhile ago.


Well yes but the thing is I don't think anyone's saying that persistence isn't a part of harassment. Maybe that's something people need to be more clear about in the future because I seriously doubt anyone is calling to press charges on a person just because another person didn't like their compliment.
OK I see that.

[manic expression]

Maybe because some women are speaking from personal experience, and you just don't want to listen to women telling you some uncomfortable truths.
Or it's because I know from personal experience that women are receptive to certain approaches from certain people. That makes me anything but uncomfortable.

[Revolutionair]

Even if we accept that males are more visually oriented, which I don't know is necessarily the case, is that relevant to street harassment? To me, it's about a learned behavior of how to treat women, and not primarily an issue of sexual attraction.

How can a scientific fact be subjective. Either you provide sources so we know that your position is correct, or your argument is void.


Sexual objectification is when a person is regarded primarily or exclusively as an object for sexual gratification and isn't the same thing as wanting to have sex with those we find attractive.

Huh? So it's objectification is attractiveness is the only thing that you're into, and it's not objectification if there is something else besides that attractiveness?


which in our society has traditionally been applied to women as a class

So there are no objectifications from a womans part? Please... How about George Clooney or Brad Pit.

The core of your argument seems to be that women are the ones being approached. Of course that's the case, culturally a man has to approach a woman for contact. If a man doesn't do that, he must be lucky to find someone.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Or it's because I know from personal experience that women are receptive to certain approaches from certain people.
I'm talking specifically about street harassment. Do you know from personal experience as a woman what it feels like to be subjected to street harassment? Do you know from personal experience as a woman what it feels like to by subjected to street harassment not just once but on a regular basis?

We're not upset by men who say hello or by the fact that hetero and bi men are sexually attracted to women. Many of us are hetero or bi women. What we're upset by is specific behavior from some men where women are treated like objects for having the audacity to walk down the street while being a woman.

[Revolutionair]

I'm talking specifically about street harassment.

Could you define harassment very precisely for me? If all men can say is 'hello' after which they have to wait 2 minutes for either a 'yes, continue' or a 'no stop', then your reality is far far away.


What we're upset by is specific behavior from some men where women are treated like objects for having the audacity to walk down the street while being a woman.

Who are these 'some men'.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Could you define harassment very precisely for me?
I posted an article about it (which has additional links), and even shared my experience with street harassment, as well as clarified that simply saying hello isn't an example of it.


Who are these 'some men'.
The men who engage in street harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So there are no objectifications from a womans part? Please... How about George Clooney or Brad Pit.
Finding people sexually attractive isn't objectification in the sense of an entire class of people, namely women, being regarded primarily or exclusively as an object for sexual gratification.

[Revolutionair]

I posted an article about it (which has additional links), and even shared my experience with street harassment, as well as clarified that simply saying hello isn't an example of it.

To which I replied:


If all men can say is 'hello' after which they have to wait 2 minutes for either a 'yes, continue' or a 'no stop', then your reality is far far away.


The men who engage in street harassment.

This is void and useless. Please be more specific. So far we've encountered men who are genuinely ill in your texts, but also men who are just looking for female recognition. Please make your points more concrete.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This is void and useless. Please be more specific. So far we've encountered men who are genuinely ill in your texts, but also men who are just looking for female recognition. Please make your points more concrete.
Read the article. Read the links contained in it. You're more than capable of doing that.

[Revolutionair]

Finding people sexually attractive isn't objectification in the sense of an entire class of people, namely women, being regarded primarily or exclusively as an object for sexual gratification.

->


The core of your argument seems to be that women are the ones being approached. Of course that's the case, culturally a man has to approach a woman for contact. If a man doesn't do that, he must be lucky to find someone.

[Revolutionair]

Read the article. Read the links contained in it. You're more than capable of doing that.

Which one deals with this specifically? I read the main post at the start of the thread if you are talking about that one, which is why I said:


So far we've encountered men who are genuinely ill in your texts, but also men who are just looking for female recognition.

You said some men. I replied that some men is too generalizing because there are different catagories of men that we are talking about. I think it's dishonest to lump up the mentally ill with the desperate.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The core of your argument seems to be that women are the ones being approached.
The problem isn't men approaching women, it's what some men are doing and saying when they approach women.

[manic expression]

I'm talking specifically about street harassment. Do you know from personal experience as a woman what it feels like to be subjected to street harassment? Do you know from personal experience as a woman what it feels like to by subjected to street harassment not just once but on a regular basis?
I've been hit on by gay guys a few times if that counts. But anyway, I don't see how me not being a woman invalidates what I've been saying.


We're not upset by men who say hello or by the fact that hetero and bi men are sexually attracted to women. Many of us are hetero or bi women. What we're upset by is specific behavior from some men where women are treated like objects for having the audacity to walk down the street while being a woman.
Objectification to some degree is inherent in initial flirtation. We shouldn't be upset that hetero and bi men act on their sexual attraction instead of remaining mere observers (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/10/26/so-theres-a-woman-dressed-all-sexy-like-your-role-as-observer/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews).

[Revolutionair]

The problem isn't men approaching women, it's what some men are doing and saying when they approach women.

That's not what I meant. You were talking about George Clooney not being a good example because he does not represent the entire class of males. Of course the entire class of males doesn't get approached like George Clooney does, because males don't get approached at all.

You are complaining that you don't like the things (sane) men say to you, which other women do appreciate.

In order to make this more concrete, we should be very specific about what men are saying. Hello is not a basis for contact, so it is an illusion that it could ever be the norm.

[Quail]

This thread is so depressing.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You said some men. I replied that some men is too generalizing because there are different catagories of men that we are talking about. I think it's dishonest to lump up the mentally ill with the desperate.
There's only one relevant category of men we're talking about: those who engage in street harassment of women.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I don't see how me not being a woman invalidates what I've been saying.
My point is that you haven't experienced what women experience when we're subjected to street harassment.


We shouldn't be upset that hetero and bi men act on their sexual attraction
I'm not. The issue is how some men act on that attraction.

[Quail]

I've been hit on by gay guys a few times if that counts. But anyway, I don't see how me not being a woman invalidates what I've been saying.

You're just outright dismissing Danielle and most other women's experiences and failing to understand that street harassment does have quite an effect on women. As I said in the other thread, when I'm walking around alone I generally expect men to make inappropriate comments and I feel quite intimidated by it. You seem to be just denying the massive impact that harassment can have on women.

You clearly have difficulty understanding women's issues and perhaps that's because you're not a woman so you don't have to deal with the everyday realities of being a woman, including street harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You are complaining that you don't like the things (sane) men say to you, which other women do appreciate.
Go back, read the original article again, and tell me what woman appreciates that behavior.


Hello is not a basis for contact
But "nice ass, baby!" or "let me see your tits" is?

[Revolutionair]

I've been hit on by gay guys a few times if that counts.

The same goes for me.


Objectification to some degree is inherent in initial flirtation. We shouldn't be upset that hetero and bi men act on their sexual attraction instead of remaining mere observers (http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/10/26/so-theres-a-woman-dressed-all-sexy-like-your-role-as-observer/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews).

From your article:


1. Admire, if it’s your thing. I mean, why not?
2. Don’t stare.

1. Don't cross the bridge. 2. Cross the bridge, do it.

Also out of personal experience. There was one time I was really fascinated about a girl accross the street. There was just something hypnotizing about her, and it definitely affected me. I walked straight into a street light.


3. Keep your commentary–and your hands–to yourself. Some women truly are into it; many aren’t. Many really aren’t. It’s best to err on the side of not offending anyone.

Wait, so women are actually into it? But some aren't? WELL THAT'S A NEWS FLASH! So what are the numbers? 99% Who are into it, and 1% who's not? 1% Who is into it, and 99% isn't? How do I know which catagory applies? I'll just develop the technique of telepathy. Thanks for the advice.


4. Don’t assume she’s dressing for you. Maybe she’s dressed all sexy-like for the benefit of her boyfriend/girlfriend, and they just happen to be out in public where you can observe it.

.... Wait what?


5. Don’t assume she’s dressing for you. Maybe she’s dressed all sexy-like for the guy two barstools down from you, who’s taller than you and flashed a Rolex when he reached for his drink. Or maybe it’s for the guy next to you on the other side who’s shorter than you and wearing tight jeans and hipster glasses that you think look stupid. Or maybe it’s for the woman behind the bar. She’s allowed to be picky, and she’s allowed to not pick you. The fact that you’re sitting within sight of her all-sexy-likeness doesn’t mean she’s aiming it at you–just that she’s a shotgun and you’re within the spread.

If this is truely the contemporary feminist position, then boy did feminism take a dive after Rosa Luxemburg.

I'm not even going to quote point 8.

[Revolutionair]

Go back, read the original article again, and tell me what woman appreciates that behavior.

There were some mentally ill guys in that text, which I've acknowledged. I replied with "it's dishonest to lump up the mentally ill with the desperate". You are pointing at the mentally ill while I asked for examples of the desperate/normal men.

[manic expression]

You're just outright dismissing Danielle and most other women's experiences and failing to understand that street harassment does have quite an effect on women. As I said in the other thread, when I'm walking around alone I generally expect men to make inappropriate comments and I feel quite intimidated by it. You seem to be just denying the massive impact that harassment can have on women.

You clearly have difficulty understanding women's issues and perhaps that's because you're not a woman so you don't have to deal with the everyday realities of being a woman, including street harassment.
There are a lot of things that I haven't experienced directly and yet I'm still capable of formulating a valid opinion on them. And I never dismissed Danielle's or "most other women's" experiences.

It must be said, again, that what's inappropriate to one person might not be inappropriate to the next. It's unwise to conclude that since you dislike something, no one does. Some behavior is pretty universally disliked (ie "fuck you then *****!"), but that's not the alpha and omega of what we're discussing. But OK, let's make this more concrete...at 00:21 of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWlazCvwi0&ob=av3e)...is that harassment?

[Revolutionair]

You're just outright dismissing Danielle and most other women's experiences and failing to understand that street harassment does have quite an effect on women. As I said in the other thread, when I'm walking around alone I generally expect men to make inappropriate comments and I feel quite intimidated by it. You seem to be just denying the massive impact that harassment can have on women.

You clearly have difficulty understanding women's issues and perhaps that's because you're not a woman so you don't have to deal with the everyday realities of being a woman, including street harassment.

Which is why I am asking to make it very concrete, so we can deal with it. It is unlikely that I'll ever have a sex change, so the only information I can get is from women, but Danielle is too vague to make any judgement. I'm just playing devil's advocate at the moment so she will make her points more specific.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

There were some mentally ill guys in that text, which I've acknowledged. I replied with "it's dishonest to lump up the mentally ill with the desperate". You are pointing at the mentally ill while I asked for examples of the desperate/normal men.
What you're saying is we shouldn't hold men responsible when they street harass women.

[Revolutionair]

What you're saying is we shouldn't hold men responsible when they street harass women.

Where? :confused:

[Left Leanings]

I am a bi-sexual man. When I was at univeristy and in my early 20s, there was a gay guy who came on to me, and made it clear he fancied me. I didn't fancy him. He was somewhat older, religious, and quite frankly, a boring old fart.

On one occasion, I was sat in the lecture room ready for class, and he had been in the class before, and was just leaving. He walked past my chair, and ran his fingers through my hair.

Another time, he struck up a conversation in the common room, and moved the conversation into the direction of sexuality. I got up to leave, and he said 'shall we go back to your place to carry on our conversation'. I said I don't live on campus anymore, but at home with my folks. He actually followed me to the bus stop, carried on with boring old fart's banter, until my bus came. I was really glad to get on it and get rid of him.

As a bisexual man, I have also been subjected to ridicule, as well as unwelcome advances. I have had groups of young males shout "queer" and "gay bastard" after me in the street. And when I got off a bus once, some worthless piece of shit made a limp-wristed gesture with his hand, meaning 'gay'.

Another thing. I was on a bus with my male (straight) mate, and there was a very attractive young woman on as well, texting on her phone. As we got off, my mate (who is in his 30s, and the young woman could only have been in her late teens/early 20s), leaned right up close to her and said something.

When we had alighted, I asked him if he knew her, and what he had said. He told me he didn't know her, and he had said 'you're a proper little darlin'. She totally ignored him, and I don't blame her one bit for that.

No one on here is gonna tell me as a bisexual man, how I should feel about the attention and comments I receive from others, whether complimentary or derogatory.

And no one should be telling the women on here either.

I have posted something similar to this in another thread, and feel the need to post here as well.

Listen to the people with the lived experience. End fucking of.

[Quail]

There are a lot of things that I haven't experienced directly and yet I'm still capable of formulating a valid opinion on them. And I never dismissed Danielle's or "most other women's" experiences.

It must be said, again, that what's inappropriate to one person might not be inappropriate to the next. It's unwise to conclude that since you dislike something, no one does. Some behavior is pretty universally disliked (ie "fuck you then *****!"), but that's not the alpha and omega of what we're discussing. But OK, let's make this more concrete...at 00:21 of this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIWlazCvwi0&ob=av3e)...is that harassment?
You're defending men who harass women in the street on the basis that it's difficult for them to tell whether or not what they do is harassment. It seems ridiculous to even have to have this conversation. Making sexual comments to a complete stranger is generally inappropriate. It's not nice and it can be intimidating. It's better to err on the side of caution when it comes to making people feel intimidated or uncomfortable.

I posted this in another thread but it's relevant here:

Are you being willfully dense here? There is a world of difference between trying to politely start a conversation and making inappropriate sexual remarks about someone. If someone tries to make conversation, but the woman isn't interested, that person stops talking to the woman and it's not harassment. I don't see why you seem to find that so difficult to understand.

Of course, one of the problems with being accustomed to street harassment is that I walk around feeling quite suspicious, and if a strange man talks to me I tend to expect to be harassed, so yes, innocent misunderstandings can happen, but in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. When you're making your innocent, polite conversation with women you don't know, you should take into account the fact that there are a lot of creepy men around and think about how you might come across to someone who has experienced street harassment.

In every thread about women's struggle, you consistently prove that you fail to understand women's issues. The fact that you find it hard to understand what kind of behaviour may or may not be taken as harassment shows that you don't really understand street harassment. Instead of reading about it and taking women's views into account, you argue that men can't be expected to know how not to harass women. And then you think that women don't need to organise and fight their oppression! The ridiculous thing is, when you argue against feminism you show exactly the kind of attitude that makes feminism necessary in the first place.

[rednordman]

Would it be appropriate for a man to meet a woman in a work environment and comment on her sexual attractiveness? That would be considered harassment. Just because there aren't laws against it in the street, doesn't mean it's not harassment.I do understand what you are saying but for one, there is a whole different world between simply going up to a stranger and complimenting them in a tasteful manner, to that of using 'dirty' talk.

I agree with you on that one, it's out of order to be blatantly pervy to women, but to do it with out using trashy words and not gorping isn't on the same level of bad.

Secondly, what about women who actually appreciate it? Some may find it sort of empowering that they have managed to reduce a grown man to behaving like a kid to attract her attention. Because fundamentally that is what the more vulgar men are in essence. They are behaving like kids without a clue. This is the reason why you don't really ever get woman doing like wise to men.

Most men know that behavior like that woman described WILL NOT do you any good AT ALL.

Really if you don't like what your hearing you shouldn't feel the need to call the police, you should simply use your body language and tell the guy in question to go and do one. Its if he persists that would make it a problem, and i'm pretty sure that you could in fact accuse him of harassment from that point.

[Quail]

I do understand what you are saying but for one, there is a whole different world between simply going up to a stranger and complimenting them in a tasteful manner, to that of using 'dirty' talk.

I agree with you on that one, it's out of order to be blatantly pervy to women, but to do it with out using trashy words and not gorping isn't on the same level of bad.
I think that's up to the woman on the receiving end of it to decide. Just because someone isn't using trashy language, it doesn't mean they're not being a creep.


Secondly, what about women who actually appreciate it? Some may find it sort of empowering that they have managed to reduce a grown man to behaving like a kid to attract her attention. Because fundamentally that is what the more vulgar men are in essence. They are behaving like kids without a clue. This is the reason why you don't really ever get woman doing like wise to men.
It can be flattering to know that people find you attractive. However, it's hardly empowering to feel vulnerable because a group of men are making inappropriate comments from across the street, or to feel intimidated by strangers in the street because you're used to being harassed, or to feel anxious about walking around town on your own.

That's what street harassment does. People on this thread seem to be failing to understand that it's not just a throwaway comment or two that can easily be ignored. Because of these innocent, harmless comments, I feel anxious when I'm walking around alone. When I see a group of young men and I'm on my own, I try to avoid them because I worry they're going to make comments and I feel intimidated. Women shouldn't have to feel like that.


Really if you don't like what your hearing you shouldn't feel the need to call the police, you should simply use your body language and tell the guy in question to go and do one. Its if he persists that would make it a problem, and i'm pretty sure that you could in fact accuse him of harassment from that point.
I don't think women should have to be telling creepy men to leave them alone. Men should try not to come across as creepy. For example, when I go out to a club, I shouldn't have to be pushing men away from me when they come and grind up against me. The onus is on them not to grind against women they don't know.

[rednordman]

On one occasion, I was sat in the lecture room ready for class, and he had been in the class before, and was just leaving. He walked past my chair, and ran his fingers through my hair.That's blatant physical contact. Most people know that its wrong. What actually constitutes sexual harassment nowadays? The article made it sound as if stuff like that and cat calling was a very common occurrence? is it?

[Luís Henrique]

Fair enough, but I don't think they're inherently part of male sexuality, they're learned behavior.

They are learned behaviour, and they are taught in the same way that women are taught not to express sexual interest even when they feel it, and instead wait for men to take the initiative (and to presume that men are not interested if they don't). Both things are complementary. Trying to suppress one without changing the other is absurd.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Every time I see men defending this kind of behavior, I get more sympathetic to why some women choose separatist feminism. It's even worse when it's Leftist men doing it. What the fuck? I can't even get support from Leftist men for the idea that I as a woman should be able to walk down a fucking street without being harassed?

It depends on what you call harassment. The text quoted in the OP cited a few situations, some of which seem clearly harassment ("I find you sexy" - "I am not interested" - "you *****") while others do not seem harassment at all (some man stares at some woman). You have the right to respond to crude, clueless, or tasteless sexual initiatives with direct negatives, and to expect that the rejected person leaves it at that, with no further dialogue, especially not of the insulting kind. You do not have the right to preempt such initiatives, and you certainly have no right to demand that people don't look at you, which would be an evident trespassing of their own bodily autonomy.

Luís Henrique

[Ostrinski]

On dressing sexy - I completely agree that people have the right to dress however they want and not have to deal with the ramifications for doing so. I agree that men have a responsibility not to be all creepy and all that. But the problem is that most men aren't going to feel this way. If you dress sexy-like, you will be approached in creepy ways. It's disgusting and it's unfair - but it's going to happen. The only way to have cake and also eat it would be to have some sort of secret police force.

[Luís Henrique]

Here is a group of Yanomami women. They dress like that at all times, this isn't some special occasion. And yet, and without downplaying sexism among Yanomamis in a bon sauvage way, I don't think they are more harassed than Saudi women.

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjSvA4wn3VeHzeKknVNRYyRvHdwmdEI CZ0iQdsx_Q1FOr3UPsNrw

Which means, of course, that "Western" men are socialised to behave the way they do, while Yanomami men are socialised to find barebreasted women a normal part of the landscape.

So it is certainly possible to change the way men are socialised, towards one less ingrained into the imposition of conservative dressing. But I don't think that separatism or semi-separatism, or unreal demands about not being stared at, can help to this end.

Luís Henrique

[Quail]

On dressing sexy - I completely agree that people have the right to dress however they want and not have to deal with the ramifications for doing so. I agree that men have a responsibility not to be all creepy and all that. But the problem is that most men aren't going to feel this way. If you dress sexy-like, you will be approached in creepy ways. It's disgusting and it's unfair - but it's going to happen. The only way to have cake and also eat it would be to have some sort of secret police force.
...Or we could try to get men to think about the way they act and socialise our children so that they have respect for women.

[Ostrinski]

...Or we could try to get men to think about the way they act and socialise our children so that they have respect for women.Within a hypothetical socialist society, I agree. But within capitalist society is what I was referring to. The secret police thing was a joke.

[Quail]

Within a hypothetical socialist society, I agree. But within capitalist society is what I was referring to. The secret police thing was a joke.
I don't understand. So you think we should wait until we live in a socialist society before standing up to street harassment?

[#FF0000]

Where is that line? Exactly my point, that line is a very individual thing, and so we can't establish a line for everyone, everywhere, all the time.


And that it's impossible to know what's welcome or unwelcome to a certain person at a certain time.

Here's the thing: comments that are on that blurry, indefinite line are not the problem. When we're talking about street harassment we're talking what is often either obnoxious and annoying dumbness, or we're talking about shit that literally nobody would want to hear from a stranger on the street.

Like honestly the sort of shit that women hear sometimes is mortifying dude and I think an effort to stop that is a good thing. Especially considering it would do absolutely. nothing. to. you. because you can still have your awkward attempts at conversation that go pear-shaped and nobody would put you on a list.

I mean we can have a discussion about where 'the line' is but it's useless and a waste of time because I think we all acknowledge that it's a blurry and very much subjective thing, but I think as a very general rule based on personal experience -- women I know don't like being approached by dudes on the street with comments about their body.


"Hey, you lit up the room just then, I'm _____, what's your name?" That kind of thing doesn't always sound off to many people.


Yeah but this isn't a specific comment about anyone's body. It's just an attempt to start a conversation and it just doesn't really matter because this is a hypothetical on the internet.



I agree that persistence over the objections of a woman is not only folly but disrespectful and more importantly entering harassment-land. However, until there's a clear expression that she's uninterested, you can't really blame the guy for persisting (unless he's yelling abusive language at her, but that goes without saying).

Man, no, I think you can because people aren't always comfortable in telling someone that they don't want them around or they want them to stop. Go back to the essay in the op and look at the more awful things men said to the author. She never responded to it, never told anyone to stop it -- does that those men can't be blamed?


But I'm just curious, do you think I'm whining that someone didn't appreciate my comment? Haha, not at all, I'm only saying that women do appreciate approaches and that feminists are completely cross-eyed for trying to define that as "harassment".

No I think you're whining because you're talking about the least of the issue (Graceless but honest attempts to start a conversation) when that really isn't what most street harassment is.

and yo feminists are not the only people i've heard talk about this shit.


According to her, you are a bigot because you don't consider yourself a feminist. Crazy, right? This is why I lost patience with feminism awhile ago.


I'll deal with that when she says it to me.

[#FF0000]

You do not have the right to preempt such initiatives

how are people attempting to preempt these things tho


and you certainly have no right to demand that people don't look at you, which would be an evident trespassing of their own bodily autonomy.


yo i think there is a definite difference between looking at someone and staring or leering at someone. I know because I look at things and people all the time.

[manic expression]

Here's the thing: comments that are on that blurry, indefinite line are not the problem. When we're talking about street harassment we're talking what is often either obnoxious and annoying dumbness, or we're talking about shit that literally nobody would want to hear from a stranger on the street.

Like honestly the sort of shit that women hear sometimes is mortifying dude and I think an effort to stop that is a good thing. Especially considering it would do absolutely. nothing. to. you. because you can still have your awkward attempts at conversation that go pear-shaped and nobody would put you on a list.

I mean we can have a discussion about where 'the line' is but it's useless and a waste of time because I think we all acknowledge that it's a blurry and very much subjective thing, but I think as a very general rule based on personal experience -- women I know don't like being approached by dudes on the street with comments about their body.
You're saying no woman has appreciated a single comment about their body from a stranger? Quite the spokesman of women you are, and how bold of you when you know nothing of the issue aside from what your female friends choose to tell you. Me, I'd rather let women themselves make their mind up about it.

I also like how you keep insinuating that I'm socially incompetent in order to boost your argument. Not that it matters, but I do just fine, thanks.


Yeah but this isn't a specific comment about anyone's body. It's just an attempt to start a conversation and it just doesn't really matter because this is a hypothetical on the internet.It's about someone's physical appearance, is it not? Yes, it is.


Man, no, I think you can because people aren't always comfortable in telling someone that they don't want them around or they want them to stop. Go back to the essay in the op and look at the more awful things men said to the author. She never responded to it, never told anyone to stop it -- does that those men can't be blamed?I prefer not to view women (or girls) as helpless damsels in distress, I instead prefer to see them as people who can speak up if they find something not to their liking. Perhaps you disagree.


No I think you're whining because you're talking about the least of the issue (Graceless but honest attempts to start a conversation) when that really isn't what most street harassment is.

and yo feminists are not the only people i've heard talk about this shit.I'm really just pointing out the inability of some posters to adequately define what street harassment is. We've had more than a few pages of "you know it when you see it", which isn't quite as constructive as one might hope for.


I'll deal with that when she says it to me.Would you, then?

[#FF0000]

You're saying no woman has appreciated a single comment about their body from a stranger?

Nope I'm saying that more often than not women (and people in general) don't like that shit. Not that it's 100%.


Quite the spokesman of women you are. Me, I'd rather let women themselves make their mind up about it.


I'm not trying to be the spokesman for anyone. I am telling you what women I know told me. Also, I like how you complain that feminists try and shut men up in conversations like this when you are here doing the exact same thing, with the exact same rationale you accuse feminists of using ("Uh let's see what women think about this? Thanks?")


I also like how you keep insinuating that I'm socially incompetent in order to boost your argument. Not that it matters, but I do just fine, thanks.


Ahhh "you" was really directed at 'you'. It was more a general sort of "you".

I don't believe you either way though.


It's about someone's physical appearance, is it not? Yes, it is.

Yo I give you the benefit of the doubt a lot because I don't think you're really as stupid as you seem when you say things like this, but context is important. Saying "OH HEY YOU ARE PRETTY" might still be creepy depending on the context but shit like "EXCELLENT TITS" is literally never okay.


I prefer not to view women (or girls) as helpless damsels in distress, who can speak up if they find something not to their liking. Perhaps you disagree.

Nah dogg this is something that is absolutely true for everyone, not just women. A lot of the time people don't feel comfortable dealing w/ people who are harassing them just because it's awkward.


I'm really just pointing out the inability of some posters to adequately define what street harassment is. We've had more than a few pages of "you know it when you see it", which isn't quite as constructive as one might hope for.

People have, though. Any unwelcome communication can be harassment. If someone's just being annoying and won't stop talking to you, that's harassment. If someone comes up to a stranger and whispers something overtly sexual in their ear, then that's harassment no repetition needed. It's pretty simple I think.


Would you, then?

Yeah?

[gorillafuck]

I remember when some stupid fucking punk barista girl was hitting on me when I wasn't responding how much it pissed me off. I can only imagine what it'd be like if people did that on the streets constantly in more direct and really derogatory ways. yeesh. cat calling is very obviously a bad thing.

[manic expression]

Nope I'm saying that more often than not women (and people in general) don't like that shit. Not that it's 100%.
I don't know how that possibly can be quantified.


I'm not trying to be the spokesman for anyone. I am telling you what women I know told me. Also, I like how you complain that feminists try and shut men up in conversations like this when you are here doing the exact same thing, with the exact same rationale you accuse feminists of using ("Uh let's see what women think about this? Thanks?")
You're telling me what women chose to tell you. The difference between my opinion and that of a lot of feminists' is that I'm willing to trust in the decision-making abilities of each woman, not what feminists tell us they really want but are too deluded to know they want.


Ahhh "you" was really directed at 'you'. It was more a general sort of "you".

I don't believe you either way though.
And I couldn't care less.


Yo I give you the benefit of the doubt a lot because I don't think you're really as stupid as you seem when you say things like this, but context is important. Saying "OH HEY YOU ARE PRETTY" might still be creepy depending on the context but shit like "EXCELLENT TITS" is literally never okay.
A compliment about physical appearance is a compliment about physical appearance. If you wanted to split hairs then you should've stated that beforehand.


Nah dogg this is something that is absolutely true for everyone, not just women. A lot of the time people don't feel comfortable dealing w/ people who are harassing them just because it's awkward.
Not in my experience.


People have, though. Any unwelcome communication can be harassment. If someone's just being annoying and won't stop talking to you, that's harassment. If someone comes up to a stranger and whispers something overtly sexual in their ear, then that's harassment no repetition needed. It's pretty simple I think.
"Unwelcome" is impossible to know until communication is attempted. I've been making this point since the first page but a lot of posters seem content not to listen.

[#FF0000]

I don't know how that possibly can be quantified.

welcome to people i guess?


You're telling me what women chose to tell you.

What are you saying here? Yeah, some women I know choose to tell me some dude was catcalling at them or being obnoxious to them and they didn't like it.


The difference between my opinion and that of a lot of feminists' is that I'm willing to trust in the decision-making abilities of each woman, not what feminists tell us they really want but are too deluded to know they want.

No one is claiming to speak for all women though. We are just saying that a lot of people find cat-calling annoying as fuck.


A compliment about physical appearance is a compliment about physical appearance.

No. The details are absolutely important. Complimenting someone's hair or saying something general like 'you look nice' is one thing but comments about specific body parts are rarely welcome from strangers.


Not in my experience.

Hey, that's fine if that's your experience, but I think most would agree with me that it's really fucking common for people to just sort of put up with annoying shit because confronting people could be just as awkward and unpleasant. Again this applies to everyone and tons of situations.

[Quail]

Hey, that's fine if that's your experience, but I think most would agree with me that it's really fucking common for people to just sort of put up with annoying shit because confronting people could be just as awkward and unpleasant. Again this applies to everyone and tons of situations.
Just to add to this, if it's someone who is bigger than you or a group of people and you feel intimidated, you're not really going to want to confront them.

[gorillafuck]

manic, your viewpoint is pretty much based on the idea that every woman you walk by might potentially be someone who responds well to sexual harassment. and there are some women who do respond well to that shit, funnily enough. but it's a really, really, really bad assumption to make.

[Ostrinski]

I don't understand. So you think we should wait until we live in a socialist society before standing up to street harassment?Hell no. What I'm saying is that you're not going to get men to shed to their predatorial sexual nature under capitalism. Bourgeois society trains men to exert their dominance and to view women as pieces of meat. Therefore, from a practical standpoint, it is not wise to provoke them any further (whether intentionally or unintentionally).

[Ele'ill]

Hell no. What I'm saying is that you're not going to get men to shed to their predatorial sexual nature under capitalism. Bourgeois society trains men to exert their dominance and to view women as pieces of meat. Therefore, from a practical standpoint, it is not wise to provoke them any further (whether intentionally or unintentionally).

Bourgeois society trains workers to resent organizing and to remain extremely individualistic....

[Ostrinski]

Bourgeois society trains workers to resent organizing and to remain extremely individualistic....Yeah?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What are you saying here?
I think he's implying those women actually enjoyed being street harassed but chose to tell you they were bothered by it.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Hell no. What I'm saying is that you're not going to get men to shed to their predatorial sexual nature under capitalism.
So how do you explain all the men who don't engage in street harassment of women?

[Ostrinski]

So how do you explain all the men who don't engage in street harassment of women?They're just better at resisting it, I guess.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

They're just better at resisting it, I guess.
You're basically calling any man who respects women a liar. Earlier you said, "Bourgeois society trains men to exert their dominance and to view women as pieces of meat." So can't individual men reject that social programming just as some women can reject the social programming that we're supposed to be pieces of meat?

[Ostrinski]

You're basically calling any man who respects women a liar. Earlier you said, "Bourgeois society trains men to exert their dominance and to view women as pieces of meat." So can't individual men reject that social programming just as some women can reject the social programming that we're supposed to be pieces of meat?Certainly, I respect women just as much as anyone else. But to reject that type of socialization you have to identify the phenomenon. Those that are unaware of it carry out their bourgeois gender roles without even realizing it.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Just to add to this, if it's someone who is bigger than you or a group of people and you feel intimidated, you're not really going to want to confront them.
And of course, a lot of women in our society have been victims of physical and/or sexual violence, and I can only imagine street harassment can trigger those memories and emotions very intensely.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Certainly, I respect women just as much as anyone else. But to reject that type of socialization you have to identify the phenomenon. Those that are unaware of it carry out their bourgeois gender roles without even realizing it.
Of course. Those roles appear "natural" to them, and they proceed from that perspective. Which is why they need to be challenged whenever they engage in such behavior.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

"Unwelcome" is impossible to know until communication is attempted.
Really? It's impossible to know that groping, catcalling, comments about breasts and genitals, stalking, leering, etc., are unwelcome until they're attempted?

[manic expression]

I'd like to respond to more posters, I will try to do so in good time.


welcome to people i guess?
Yes, so we should stop trying to treat it as a black-and-white issue when it's quite nuanced. There's no one-size-fits-all here.


What are you saying here? Yeah, some women I know choose to tell me some dude was catcalling at them or being obnoxious to them and they didn't like it.I'm saying you're basing your entire conclusion on selected views of a very limited demographic. Your friends choose to tell you when they didn't like getting catcalled, but women give out their numbers to guys who approach them on the street every day, and you're not going to hear about it because a.) perhaps your friends are of a certain perspective that, shockingly, not all women share and b.) I doubt that when women are approached and thought it positive they'd go out of their way to tell their guy friends about it.


No one is claiming to speak for all women though. We are just saying that a lot of people find cat-calling annoying as fuck.Don't be ridiculous, we've already established that this isn't just about catcalling.


No. The details are absolutely important. Complimenting someone's hair or saying something general like 'you look nice' is one thing but comments about specific body parts are rarely welcome from strangers.Someone's hair is a physical feature, trying to say it's not a body part is (dare I say it?) splitting hairs. What would the rule be, that you can comment on physical appearance so long as it involves hair follicles instead of skin?


Hey, that's fine if that's your experience, but I think most would agree with me that it's really fucking common for people to just sort of put up with annoying shit because confronting people could be just as awkward and unpleasant. Again this applies to everyone and tons of situations.I think women deserve more credit than that.

[Luís Henrique]

Man, no, I think you can because people aren't always comfortable in telling someone that they don't want them around or they want them to stop. Go back to the essay in the op and look at the more awful things men said to the author. She never responded to it, never told anyone to stop it -- does that those men can't be blamed?

Yes, but this is part of the problem. Women are socialised to not respond to males in an aggressive way; this needs to be changed.


No I think you're whining because you're talking about the least of the issue (Graceless but honest attempts to start a conversation) when that really isn't what most street harassment is.

The text in the OP is in my opinion unable to make the difference. I wouldn't trust its author's ability to determine what consists in harassment and what does not.

Luís Henrique

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

you're not going to hear about it because a.) perhaps your friends are of a certain perspective that, shockingly, not all women share
There it comes again, manic has found a way to argue that women who don't like street harassment must be feminists, because only a feminist would complain about being sexually harassed. :rolleyes:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The text in the OP is in my opinion unable to make the difference. I wouldn't trust its author's ability to determine what consists in harassment and what does not.
There isn't a single occurrence in that article that isn't harassment.

[Luís Henrique]

There isn't a single occurrence in that article that isn't harassment.

How is this


I’m seventeen and plastic bags of bai cai are killing my arms. My mom and I speed-hobble downstairs at the Flushing station, only to find that the train isn’t leaving for ten minutes. Dropping our groceries in an empty car, my mom pulls out the weekend World Journal and I turn to my copy of Life of Pi. A man boards and sits across from us. He immediately begins staring at me. Intently. Willing my mom not to notice, I read. And he stares. He stares and doesn’t stop and I’m trying to muster the courage just to look him in the eye, but I’m afraid. What if that encourages him to do something else? What if my mother sees? I wish that he would just look away, even for one second. But he doesn’t. After a few minutes, I put down my book and look up at his face. He is old, older than even my father. I expect him to put his hand on his crotch, to grin obscenely, or to lick his lips, or maybe all three. Instead he just stares. Should I be relieved? People start filtering into the car. Eventually, he looks away.

harassment?

Luís Henrique

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How is this harassment?
Intently staring can be a sign of aggression or predation in mammals.

[Luís Henrique]

Intently staring can be a sign of aggression or predation in mammals.

How is it harassment? He didn't touch her, he didn't speak to her, he didn't even grin at her.

I am not saying that she should have liked the situation, but, frankly, her own report shows that much more was going on her head than in the actual world. She kept imagining things that never happened, and was disturbed by her own imagination.

Luís Henrique

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How is it harassment? He didn't touch her, he didn't speak to her, he didn't even grin at her.
The last just makes it seem even more aggressive and predatory.


I am not saying that she should have liked the situation, but, frankly, her own report shows that much more was going on her head than in the actual world.
It sounds like she already had a history of being harassed when that happened.

[Luís Henrique]

The last just makes it seem even more aggressive and predatory.

No, it doesn't. It was all in her imagination.

(indeed, one of her dark fantasies was that the stranger would grin to her, so in her imagination the fact that he didn't can't have been "even more aggressive and predatory".)


It sounds like she already had a history of being harassed when that happened.

Indeed, but how would anyone have guessed that, much less taken responsibility for it?

Luís Henrique

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No, it doesn't. It was all in her imagination.
No, it wasn't. Anyone with a grasp of body language would interpret that type of staring--direct, expressionless, and unceasing--as aggressive and predatory.

[manic expression]

There it comes again, manic has found a way to argue that women don't all think exactly the same.
Fixed your post.


Intently staring can be a sign of aggression or predation in mammals.
A feminist appealing to animal instincts, now that's a boatload worth of irony. I don't even need to point out how absurd this argument is.

[arilando]

This has nothing to do with human biology. We all have sexual urges, but only some of us think we have the right to impose them on others without their consent.


No, it's never appropriate for a man to approach a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts, but it is appropriate for a woman to use any means necessary to put an end to the harassment.
I dont think there's any inherent problem with saying anything to anyone, as long as one does not continue to talk to them if they have made it clear that the contact is unwanted. As long someone does not actually physically touch someone else without their consent or implied consent, i dont think you can call that violence or aggression.

[arilando]

Every time I see men defending this kind of behavior, I get more sympathetic to why some women choose separatist feminism. It's even worse when it's Leftist men doing it. What the fuck? I can't even get support from Leftist men for the idea that I as a woman should be able to walk down a fucking street without being harassed?
Being spoken to is not harassment.

[arilando]

I don't see it as an issue of "policing sexuality," I see it as an issue of some men thinking women are objects who exist primarily or exclusively for their pleasure. I think capitalism and other systems of dominance (racism, sexism, heterosexism, etc.) need to be smashed as part of revolutionary struggle. We need to build a society where people aren't commodities or objects.


When you've been alone on a street and someone bigger and stronger than you has demanded to see some part of your body for purposes of sexual gratification, we can talk about trivializing harassment.
If you are talking about the man who asked to see your breasts, that is not a demand, it is a simple question.

[arilando]

Good article. I think it's really worth it to show men what the everyday life is like for many women. I remember when I saw Black Swan and there was a scene where Natalie Portman's character and some old man were alone on the subway and he started rubbing his genitals while licking at her and I actually thought that was supposed to be some weird psycho-sexual dream sequence, I didn't realize that stuff like that actually happens everyday.


However I do have a question about a passage from one of the sites linked
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male-allies/how-to-talk-to-women/

What is that part exactly supposed to mean? Obviously I understand the factual aspect but I hope it isn't saying that you should accommodate people that have classist or racist views.
That article seems incredibly dumb to me, i should't take pains not to be close to a women just because it is dark, or a deserted area or i'm with my friends, i find it more conveint to walk a route that brings me close to it, i should't refrain from doing so.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Being spoken to is not harassment.
"Hello" isn't harassment. "Hi, my name is ___" isn't harassment. "Can I see your breasts?" is harassment. Catcalling is harassment. Requests for sex is harassment.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If you are talking about the man who asked to see your breasts, that is not a demand, it is a simple question.
A man approaching a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts is harassing her. End of story.

Simple question? You have no fucking clue. Please shut up now and quit telling women they shouldn't feel harassed under such circumstances.

[Left Leanings]

It seems to me, we have some pubescent young men on these Boards, who have yet to learn that it is wrong to harrass women on the street.

Grow up, eh lads.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

That article seems incredibly dumb to me
You missed this part: "Stranger rape and harassment are real threats for women."

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

A feminist appealing to animal instincts, now that's a boatload worth of irony. I don't even need to point out how absurd this argument is.
I'm not "appealing to animal instincts," I'm pointing out that mammals, a group that includes humans, communicate through body language. Even as verbal as humans are, we look at facial expressions and body language to provide context.

If someone says they're not angry but their face is contorted in anger, do you believe their words or their face?

[#FF0000]

How is this



harassment?

Luís Henrique

Man I know you're not that stupid, Luis. Staring is considered rude already precisely because it makes people uncomfortable and that's not even just something that applies to women.

[Revolutionair]

It seems to me, we have some pubescent young men on these Boards, who have yet to learn that it is wrong to harrass women on the street.

Grow up, eh lads.

Why don't we behave more like George Clooney or Brad Pit! :(

[Veovis]

I think more people need to realize the difference between paying someone a compliment and being a pig.

[Lilith]

Man I know you're not that stupid, Luis. Staring is considered rude already precisely because it makes people uncomfortable and that's not even just something that applies to women.

But I don't think doing something that is considered by some to be rude is necessarily the same thing as harassment.

[#FF0000]

But I don't think doing something that is considered by some to be rude is necessarily the same thing as harassment.

Yo but it is considered rude because it makes people uncomfortable. Intentionally staring at people and not stopping is certainly harassment.

[La Comédie Noire]

Men sometimes forget that we are big, terrifying ape creatures who can outweigh our female counterparts by as much as one hundred pounds.

[Lilith]

Yo but it is considered rude because it makes people uncomfortable. Intentionally staring at people and not stopping is certainly harassment.

So what if a woman is continuously staring at a man in a public place because she finds him attractive and wants him to notice her? I highly doubt that anyone here would consider this to be harassment. In fact, it would be an absurd assertion.

Which again I think sort of comes back to the patronizing attitude that some well intentioned posters here have toward women, who are regarded as these fragile, infantile creatures who need to be protected from the world.

[#FF0000]

So what if a woman is continuously staring at a man in a public place because she finds him attractive and wants him to notice her? I highly doubt that anyone here would consider this to be harassment. In fact, it would be an absurd assertion.

Trying to get someone's attention, though, is something completely different (even if people miss signals and shit sometimes). No one's saying "never look at somebody" or telling anyone that they are a bad person if they zone out and accidentally stare at someone. I think folks are trying to address dudes who literally just stand around and stare at women whether they notice or not which is a thing that actually exists.

Seriously in some cities there are certain places around a park where you just have a small smattering of dudes just standing around pretending to be on their phones or something while just staring at women who are sitting on some steps or something. They sit and they stare and even talking to them doesn't really do anything -- they just ignore it and keep staring.


Which again I think sort of comes back to the patronizing attitude that some well intentioned posters here have toward women, who are regarded as these fragile, infantile creatures who need to be protected from the world.No, that's not the case at all. I don't think it's patronizing at all to say something to a person who is harassing someone else.

[Lilith]

Trying to get someone's attention, though, is something completely different (even if people miss signals and shit sometimes). No one's saying "never look at somebody" or telling anyone that they are a bad person if they zone out and accidentally stare at someone.
Look, you yourself have said that intentionally staring at someone is harassment. I disputed this. So I will ask you again. Is it, or is it not, harassment? Or, is it only harassment when men do it, because women are fragile, helpless little creatures who need to be protected from the gazes of men?


No, that's not the case at all.
Evidently I disagree. Some people are obnoxious and rude to other people, and that is unfortunate, but to paint harassment in the way that you are is, in my opinion, basically infantilizing women.

[#FF0000]

Look, you yourself have said that intentionally staring at someone is harassment. I disputed this. So I will ask you again. Is it, or is it not, harassment? Or, is it only harassment when men do it, because women are fragile and harmless little creatures who need to be protected from the super scary and dangerous wandering gazes of men?

Yeah, if a person is leering at someone it's harassment. I had a woman who I worked with once leer at me for an entire shift when I worked at a fast food place. It sucks and not only makes people uncomfortable but is hella embarrassing when other people notice it happening too.


Evidently I disagree.

Er, why shouldn't someone call out a person who is harassing another person?

[Lilith]

I had a woman who I worked with once leer at me for an entire shift when I worked at a fast food place. It sucks and not only makes people uncomfortable but is hella embarrassing when other people notice it happening too.Ha ha ha, yes, that sounds absolutely horrifying and traumatizing, you obviously should have filed a police report!!!!1


Er, why shouldn't someone call out a person who is harassing another person? If it wasn't clear by now, we obviously disagree with what constitutes harassment.

[#FF0000]

If it wasn't clear by now, we obviously disagree with what constitutes harassment.

I don't understand how leering at someone doesn't constitute harassment though.

[#FF0000]

Ha ha ha, yes, that sounds absolutely horrifying and traumatizing, you obviously should have filed a police report!!!!1

Uhhh it made for an extremely unpleasant work environment, even before I started hearing the fucked up comments she was making to other people about me, but okay.

edit: yo you know that harassment doesn't, like, have to leave you with some ptsd or some shit right? I also want to point out that I'm a man, and I've talked about the saga of sexual harassment that went on at that particular job numerous times and I never, not even once, had my experience downplayed by a feminist, which I think is really interesting considering how much "wat about the men" bullshit you hear.

[Lilith]

No offense, but I think its pretty pathetic that you consider some woman staring at you to be a saga of sexual harassment, seriously, what the fuck.

[#FF0000]

No offense, but I think its pretty pathetic that you consider some woman staring at you to be a saga of sexual harassment, seriously, what the fuck.

clearly when i say 'saga' i am talking about this single incident alone and not a collection of incidents that range from annoying and slightly embarrassing things like having this particular woman staring at me for 8 hours straight to awkward questions about my masturbation habits all the way up to groping but haha hey.

you fucking idiot.

[Lilith]

Um, well then it wouldn't be the staring in and of itself (which I believe was the point of contention) that constituted the sexual harassment, but rather the actual, you know, sexual harassment.

[#FF0000]

Um, well then it wouldn't be the staring in and of itself (which I believe was the point of contention) that constituted the sexual harassment, but rather the actual, you know, sexual harassment.


but the staring alone was disturbing and definitely made me uncomfortable. I don't think it necessarily constitutes sexual harassment on it's own (except in certain situations), but some person leering incessantly at you is definitely harassment.

[Lilith]

And once again, I disagree. I don't believe that anything which has the potential to make a person uncomfortable is by default harassment. I have seem plenty of mentally disabled, or just plain socially awkward, people who stare. It might make me uncomfortable, but the idea that it is harassment is really ridiculous in my view, and minimizes actual harassment.

[#FF0000]

I have seem plenty of mentally disabled, or just plain socially awkward, people who stare. It might make me uncomfortable, but the idea that it is harassment is really ridiculous in my view, and minimizes actual harassment.

I already addressed that, though. Someone being awkward isn't necessarily harassment -- I've had things like that happen to me, and I've found myself zoning out and staring in someone's direction by accident more than once.

The difference is that these people aren't necessarily doing it on purpose. What you don't seem to understand is that there are people who will sit there and stare at a person well past the point where it has obviously started to bother them, who will go as far as to follow the person, to drive slower when they walk by, and who will either ignore requests to stop or will start cursing and yelling or will stop for a little while before going back to it.

And this shit is really a problem. I know women who experience it. I hear about it pretty often -- and these aren't people who are taking classes on critical theory at NYU either. I hear it from women I work with, women who I went to community college with, women who are regular, working class people like me. (And that's what I notice about a lot of these news anti-street harassment things, too. They largely aren't born out of the women's studies department at NYU or the gentrified parts of Brooklyn -- it looks to me like a lot of them are coming out of regular, working class neighborhoods. But this is a tangent)

So yeah, dogg, I don't really know what to tell you. Like, staring might not bother you, or maybe you've never experienced a legit creeper leering at you (I guess a lot of males haven't?) but I assure you it bothers a lot of people quite a bit.

[Lilith]

Well, yeah, I am just a leftist male nerd, so would have no idea at all about such things.

[#FF0000]

Well, yeah, I am just a leftist male nerd, so would have no idea at all about such things.

nah being a leftist male nerd has nothing to do with that (i am certainly one of those i think) but it really seems like you don't.

[Lilith]

(i am certainly one of those i think).

Yes indeed. Anyway, unfortunately there is not much more I am able to say on the topic for various reasons. So if you will excuse me, I have liquor to attend to. Have a nice night.

[Luís Henrique]

Man I know you're not that stupid, Luis. Staring is considered rude already precisely because it makes people uncomfortable and that's not even just something that applies to women.

There is a lot of difference between being rude and harassment. The latter should land you in a police precinct to explain yourself at least.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Yeah, if a person is leering at someone it's harassment. I had a woman who I worked with once leer at me for an entire shift when I worked at a fast food place.

Why didn't you call the police, or complain to the boss?

Luís Henrique

[arilando]

A man approaching a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts is harassing her. End of story.

Simple question? You have no fucking clue. Please shut up now and quit telling women they shouldn't feel harassed under such circumstances.
I'm not telling anyone what to feel, i dont fucking care, what i care about is what is or what is not harrasment, and that is not harrasment.

[arilando]

Yo but it is considered rude because it makes people uncomfortable. Intentionally staring at people and not stopping is certainly harassment.
Not really, you can just ignore it.

[#FF0000]

Not really, you can just ignore it.

yo being able to ignore something doesn't mean it's not harassment. And I also imagine it's harder to ignore if it's something you deal with as often as some women have to.

I'm, uh, sorta surprised that I have to be the one to tell y'all that people consider leering to be harassment to be honest.


I'm not telling anyone what to feel, i dont fucking care, what i care about is what is or what is not harrasment, and that is not harrasment.

haha except saying UHHUHUHUHUHUHU ITS NOT HARASSMENT GUBGUBGUBGU is literally telling people what to feel, as plenty of people do feel harassed when someone is staring at them incessantly even when it is clear that it is unwelcome.


Why didn't you call the police, or complain to the boss?

The bosses were hella guilty of creating a hostile work environment too and would have almost certainly fired me. I probably could've gone to the police with some of the stuff but uh honestly I just never thought to do that. This was years ago and I just figured I'd ignore it and it would go away if I ignored it.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm not telling anyone what to feel, i dont fucking care, what i care about is what is or what is not harrasment, and that is not harrasment.
So to you, a man approaching a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts isn't harassing her? Seriously? You can defend that behavior? You can tell a victim of that, that she wasn't harassed?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

haha except saying UHHUHUHUHUHUHU ITS NOT HARASSMENT GUBGUBGUBGU is literally telling people what to feel, as plenty of people do feel harassed when someone is staring at them incessantly even when it is clear that it is unwelcome.
He also doesn't think it's harassment when a man stops a woman on the street and asks to see her breasts.

[Cirno(9)]

Some people that are into BDSM get turned on when they are called stuff like a "worthless piece of shit".

That doesn't mean you can just assume a random person on the street is a verbal masochist and call them a "worthless piece of shit" and try and say you were just trying to make them happy.

[Luís Henrique]

So to you, a man approaching a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts isn't harassing her? Seriously? You can defend that behavior? You can tell a victim of that, that she wasn't harassed?

The problem with such behaviour is that the guy under discussion would either be completely clueless about how the world works (someone like Henlein's Martian in Stranger in a Strange Land) or, much more probably, would be trying to achieve something very different from sexual intimacy. Such guys are afraid of women, especially afraid of female sexuality, which they see as a threat to them, and their public displays of sexual behaviour indeed serve a double purpose: to try to intimidate women, if possible so much that they won't leave home any more; and to do that while ostensibly displaying their heterosexuality, and a confidence they are far from feeling. And so, to answer your question, yes, it is harassment.

But that is only possible due to the way our society is structured, and the prejudices it inherited from the past. In other societies (Bali, the Yanomami and several other Native American societies, ancient Crete) women show(ed) their breasts as rule, without any rioutous consequences as we would expect in New York or Rio de Janeiro.

Luís Henrique

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Such guys are afraid of women, especially afraid of female sexuality, which they see as a threat to them, and their public displays of sexual behaviour indeed serve a double purpose: to try to intimidate women, if possible so much that they won't leave home any more; and to do that while ostensibly displaying their heterosexuality, and a confidence they are far from feeling. And so, to answer your question, yes, it is harassment.
Exactly. And that describes street harassment in general.


But that is only possible due to the way our society is structured, and the prejudices it inherited from the past. In other societies (Bali, the Yanomami and several other Native American societies, ancient Crete) women show(ed) their breasts as rule, without any rioutous consequences as we would expect in New York or Rio de Janeiro.
Agreed. Our society has turned breasts into sexualized fetish objects, whereas in some other societies seeing breasts was/is no more remarkable than seeing hands or noses, for example.

[arilando]

So to you, a man approaching a woman on the street to ask to see her breasts isn't harassing her? Seriously? You can defend that behavior? You can tell a victim of that, that she wasn't harassed?
Yeah, if someone approached me on the street and asked "can i see your dick" i would just say no and go on with my life.

[arilando]

yo being able to ignore something doesn't mean it's not harassment. And I also imagine it's harder to ignore if it's something you deal with as often as some women have to.

I'm, uh, sorta surprised that I have to be the one to tell y'all that people consider leering to be harassment to be honest.



haha except saying UHHUHUHUHUHUHU ITS NOT HARASSMENT GUBGUBGUBGU is literally telling people what to feel, as plenty of people do feel harassed when someone is staring at them incessantly even when it is clear that it is unwelcome.
Still not telling people what to feel, simply stating fact.

[Kitty_Paine]

I think a good general rule is simply to treat women as you would like your mother, sister or close female friend to be treated.

That is to say, if you're about to approach a woman you don't know and talk to her, think to yourself, "Would I be okay with a man walking up to my mother/sister/etc and saying/doing this?"

[#FF0000]

Still not telling people what to feel, simply stating fact.

nah dogg -- you are telling people what to feel and as far as what you're saying be a fact i will just let you know that y'all are legit the first people i have ever come across that don't consider leering to be harassment.

[Cirno(9)]

Here are several things people can keep in mind to avoid being a harasser:
Do not assume all women are single, heterosexual or bisexual, or interested in male attention or in forming a relationship.
*Differences or similarities in race, class*, and age between you and the woman and the woman’s sexual orientation can cause her to interpret attention a certain way.
Has anyone been able to interpret this passage ferom one of the links in the article in a non-classist or non-racist way? The site seemed pretty socially liberal but if I sit down near someone at a bus stop and they're uncomfortable because of my race then I'm not gonna fucking care how they feel