Cuba; between Capitalism and Socialism

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

http://www.economist.com/node/21550421

What it looks like is that the current 10% private sector of the Cuban economy will be expanded...

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I have originally held Cuba as a deformed workers state because I believed that it still had institutions and leaders that could make it socialist and only needed a political revolution. Now it looks like that won't be true much longer...:(

[Ostrinski]

Yawn. Whatever ya gotta do I guess

[Anarpest]

To dispense with paraphrases, I assume this means, 'Between capitalism we like and capitalism we dislike.'

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

UPDATE: The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/21562954) complains about stalling reforms.


WHEN Raúl Castro, Cuba’s president, gave his latest big speech, to a meeting of the National Assembly in July, he repeated his stock response to those who urge him to move faster with reforms to his country’s stagnant state-run economy. Change, he said, would progress “without haste, but without pause”. But many on the island are questioning whether the reforms—officially called “updating”—have indeed paused. . . it is apparent that Raul's approach won't turn Cuba into a miniature of those two much larger Asian communist countries, experts say. The key problem for Cuba is that Raul's reforms are not nearly as deep or thorough as those enacted by communist governments in China and Vietnam.

That is quite an interesting comment of The Economist. "Stagnating economy", really? The UN estimates Cuba has a GDP growth of 3% while its large neighbor USA is seeing 2% growth, not to mention the European Economies, of which Greece has shrunk its industrial production by 25% in the last four years!

[The Jay]

I believe that many of the businesses will be required to be workers' cooperatives, which is an improvement to the current system to me. The problem is allowing the private sale of real estate and things like that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I believe that many of the businesses will be required to be workers' cooperatives, which is an improvement to the current system to me. The problem is allowing the private sale of real estate and things like that.Well even if this comes to pass, worker cooperatives are still problematic because while workers manage their location, they don't manage the larger economy and networks connected to that work-site. Distribution and the conditions which workers manage will still be out of their hands; so it can have the effect of confusing workers and demoralizing them if they are told they are in control but then they are the ones making the crappy decisions with the cards they've been dealt. I suppose it could have the unintended consequence of exposing the limited control of the economy and cause people to see this as necessary. I don't know. But by itself, I don't see it as a step to or away from socialism in Cuba, it's a reform, steps towards socialism will come from workers in Cuba or elsewhere, but not from the reforms themselves IMO.

[Solidarity]

Is it possible to be almost Socialist?............

[Prometeo liberado]

Is it possible to be almost Socialist?............

Sure, it's like being almost pregnant. C'mon trot!

[Positivist]

Sure, it's like being almost pregnant. C'mon trot!

Come on

[Prometeo liberado]

Come on
What, Lucy pleasse 'splain.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Is it possible to be almost Socialist?............

You're not on the up and up, have you not heard? Cuba has surpassed the Socialist stage and is moving now to Communism in one island!

[The Jay]

Well even if this comes to pass, worker cooperatives are still problematic because while workers manage their location, they don't manage the larger economy and networks connected to that work-site. Distribution and the conditions which workers manage will still be out of their hands; so it can have the effect of confusing workers and demoralizing them if they are told they are in control but then they are the ones making the crappy decisions with the cards they've been dealt. I suppose it could have the unintended consequence of exposing the limited control of the economy and cause people to see this as necessary. I don't know. But by itself, I don't see it as a step to or away from socialism in Cuba, it's a reform, steps towards socialism will come from workers in Cuba or elsewhere, but not from the reforms themselves IMO.

The last three sentences are legitimate concerns. I'm no fortune teller so I don't know whether or not these reforms will push the workers to organize for control. What I can say is that it is better than not in my opinion.

Let's call a duck a duck and more worker control an improvement.

[Uppity Prole]

Socialism in a real sense (as opposed to a transitional state run by a CP where socialism/communism is the end goal) is impossible on an island of 9 million people under an aggressive imperialist blockade.

Cuba cannot hide from the fact that it has to deal with a capitalist world market and has to make unfortunate dealings with it in order to survive. Personally I just hope that this economic arrangement doesn't undermine the socialist and anti-imperialist consciousness amongst the Cuban people.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Socialism in a real sense (as opposed to a transitional state run by a CP where socialism/communism is the end goal) is impossible on an island of 9 million people under an aggressive imperialist blockade.

Cuba cannot hide from the fact that it has to deal with a capitalist world market and has to make unfortunate dealings with it in order to survive. Personally I just hope that this economic arrangement doesn't undermine the socialist and anti-imperialist consciousness amongst the Cuban people.

What socialist consciousness amongst the Cuban people?

If the Cubans have never lived under Socialism, why would they have such consciousness?

Whilst many of them (rightly) recognise the inequity of the US blockade and the economic damage it has caused over a long period of time, they equally don't walk around reciting Marx, Lenin and Castro.

[Uppity Prole]

What socialist consciousness amongst the Cuban people?

If the Cubans have never lived under Socialism, why would they have such consciousness?

Whilst many of them (rightly) recognise the inequity of the US blockade and the economic damage it has caused over a long period of time, they equally don't walk around reciting Marx, Lenin and Castro.

In the construction of socialism a socialist consciousness is constructed also. Most of us on this website have a socialist consciousness yet we live under capitalism.

If you argue that the Cuban people don't have any socialist consciousness then all you need to do is look at the leaked US diplomatic cables and how the US is "frustrated at the enduring popular support for the Cuban Revolution". Look at how Cuba sends aid to poor countries under a sense of socialist concern. Look at how Cubans fought fascism in Angola and Namibia.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

In the construction of socialism a socialist consciousness is constructed also. Most of us on this website have a socialist consciousness yet we live under capitalism.

If you argue that the Cuban people don't have any socialist consciousness then all you need to do is look at the leaked US diplomatic cables and how the US is "frustrated at the enduring popular support for the Cuban Revolution". Look at how Cuba sends aid to poor countries under a sense of socialist concern. Look at how Cubans fought fascism in Angola and Namibia.

In that sense you are correct, the Cuban revolution is indeed popular, but at best the Cuban revolution, in the context of the past two decades, has been Socialistic.

In reality, people in Cuba still want more money, not the abolition of money, some people still want to own their own houses, not the abolition of private property, and so on. So I think to say that the Cuban people are some homogenous entity that is 'Socialistically conscious' is a bit dis-honest.

[doesn't even make sense]

UPDATE: The Economist (http://www.economist.com/node/21562954) complains about stalling reforms.



That is quite an interesting comment of The Economist. "Stagnating economy", really? The UN estimates Cuba has a GDP growth of 3% while its large neighbor USA is seeing 2% growth, not to mention the European Economies, of which Greece has shrunk its industrial production by 25% in the last four years!

Well I assume 3% is low compared to what The Economist estimates they could be "enjoying" if they privatized everything and opened up to foreign investment.

[carvalho_luke]

I don't know how is going the repercussion out of Brazil, but here everybody (every socialist) knows that Cuba is just trying let the state less onerous. They're incentivating cooperatives just it. Isn't a back to capitalism.

[Lord Daedra]

Cuba is just reorienting itself for a more hardline social democratic future in a stronger ALBA (which imo is really all Castro ever really wanted)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

But that can't be right. How can this bona-fide Socialist state become capitalist with some reforms? Isn't it a bastion of Socialism?

No, it is merely a (fairly successful) welfare capitalist state which, in the face of global economic/financial pressures, is having to get rid of expensive welfare elements. Shock horror. :rolleyes:

[Comrade Bong]

Cuban socialism can not be extremely sucessful because of gepolitics. Cuba just needs to drill in hopes of finding oil and hide it from USA. Thats the only short term solution i see.

[Let's Get Free]

You can't have something "in between" socialism and capitalism anymore than you can have something in between pregnancy or not being pregnant.

[Sea]

You can't have something "in between" socialism and capitalism anymore than you can have something in between pregnancy or not being pregnant.Precisely what I was going to say.
Well I assume 3% is low compared to what The Economist estimates they could be "enjoying" if they privatized everything and opened up to foreign investment.Someone should phone them up and tell them that Cuba cannot run on faith and happiness and sunny beaches alone. ;)

[Red Enemy]

Hmm, commodity production? Well, it isn't socialism.

Hmm, workers not control of their work, or of the state? Well, not a workers' state.

I wonder what that leaves us with?

[Comrade Jandar]

I've always had a soft-spot for the Cuban Revolution regardless of what changes my political views have gone through. Anyone else similar in this regard?

[Let's Get Free]

I've always had a soft-spot for the Cuban Revolution regardless of what changes my political views have gone through. Anyone else similar in this regard?

In the sense that it overthrew a corrupt, murderous kleptocratic US backed dictator and replaced him with a relatively benevolent oligarchy, although it had nothing to do with socialism.