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cullinane
13th November 2001, 23:36
Its long been assumed that Leninism was basically a diversion from 'pure' Marxism, in that a self-selected elite, by dint of their knowledge, dedication and selfessness have a surer grasp of the needs of the working class, than the working class themselves could posesses. The working class by itself could never transcend bourgeois ideology and in existing society was too unorganised and wretched thanks to wage labour, that they could never carry out a revolution on their own. As Gramsci says "To rely on the unique creative capacity of such a mass and not work systematically to organise an army of disciplined and conscious militants ready to assume effective responsibilty for the revolution - not to do this is a betrayal of the proletariat and an unconscious counterrevolution in advance".
Given the states control of education, media, the army etc..The path to secure the support of the working class ;lay through the prior seizure of state power; not through a majority to state power. Basically, a form of Jacobinism. Its synomymous with voluntarism - triumphing over an objective restraint.
One of the basis of Leninism is that "socialist consciousness is something introduced into the class struggle of the proletariat from without and not something that arises within it spontaneously" or "isolated from the Marxist movement, the working class becomes petty and inevitably bourgeois" as the bourgeoisies have immeasurably more means of dissemination at its disposal.
Thus one could come to the following conclusions on Leninism..and below I'll mention Marx..
Socialism is the product of the radical intelligentsia since, clearly, no workman could have written Anti-Duhring, Capital or even What is To Be Done.

Now, Marx is often portrayed as a proponent of "socialism for below" and that only the working class on their own, can emancipate themselves. But he also says this in his political writings. For example, the working class "will remain a plaything" in the hands of the ruling classes unless it is "trained by continual agitation..to undertake decisive campaign against the collective power".
Again; "the question is not what this or that proletarian or even the whole of the proletariat at the moment considers as its aim. The question is what proletariat is, and what, compelled to do do. Its aim and historical action is irrevocably and obviously demonstrated in its own life situation as well in the whole organisation of bourgeois society today".
Another quote "A portion of the bourgeois ideologists, who raised themselves to the level of comprehending theorectically the historical movement as a whole"" that "supply the proletariat with fresh elements of enlightenment and progress"...These evidently are the leaders of the working class parties"who have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the line of march, the conditions and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement".
The above Marx quotes are from Marx and Engels selected correspondence and the holy family.

The tactic of using the 'workerphile' Marx as a dramatic foil to the elitest, manipulative Lenin has become almost a reflex with western commentators on Leninism is unconvincing, because it is far from clear that in denouncing those whole believed socialism was a natural and spontaneous outgrowth of the labour movement Lenin was at all out of accord with the spirit and actions of Marx.
We might well lament the tones of elitism, but we are wrong to attribute them to Lenin especially. It would be difficult to make sense of Marx's own life's work, his extraordinary committment to the construction of proletarian ideology, if we are to believe that he thought it would, in any case, be produced spontaneously by the workers themselves.
Regards,

Valkyrie
16th November 2001, 01:08
good post!

El Che
8th February 2002, 13:55
Great post Cullinane, im sorry to see that u hardly ever post here any more.

I had wondered about Marxs thoughts on the correct politcal course of action, your post is most enlightening in that respect. But i think it is importante to realise that Marxs was around in the 19 th century and back then i think it is understandable to assume an elitest position. I wonder rather he didnt because I believe such a position to be fundamentaly flawed. Marx looks at history from a materialist prespective, effectively inventing the same. He observes that for change to come about there is frist a class struggle then a revolution and then a the victorious class emerges as the ruling one. He there for concludes that for a new and final stage of social evolution to ocurre there must be a class struggle followed by a revolution. This is a logical assertion and an understandable one. He sees not class consciousness, this the fundament from which the process of revolution is putt in motion, so it logicaly follows that those who understand the need for change should effectivate the change in mentalities. I am uncertain as to weather Lenins actions are in acordance with this or rather personalise the struggle to the obcessive point where the proletariet is actualy disregraded and the elite is all. Only it knows, only it can decide. He pushes the workers aways from the political process, I feel this is not in any way what Marx proposes when it comes to the course of action.


In any case Marx`s enourmus contribution is not in the militancy or effectivation of the process but in providing the scientific theoretical grounds of the need for change. That need presists because the millitantes failed and the elitest feel prey to there elitism.

peaccenicked
8th February 2002, 18:26
Quote: from cullinane on 12:36 am on Nov. 14, 2001
Its long been assumed that Leninism was basically a diversion from 'pure' Marxism, in that a self-selected elite, by dint of their knowledge, dedication and selfessness have a surer grasp of the needs of the working class, than the working class themselves could posesses. The working class by itself could never transcend bourgeois ideology and in existing society was too unorganised and wretched thanks to wage labour, that they could never carry out a revolution on their own.
oh.This old anarchist tosh. Full of logical absurdities. It has long been assumed by whom? Even if it is true what makes the assuption correct. What is pure marxism?
How has Lenin supposed to have diverted from its path?
But this is not the story . the story goes.
lenin was an elitist, marxists try to distance themselves from elitism. So they abandon Leninism. But this is a fraud because Marx was elitist himself.
This how the anarchist fairtale went forty years ago. What has happenned is Stalinism and the myth that leninism led to stalinism. Now the myth that marxism and leninism are elitist.
It just is not true.
This is schoolyard rebellion. Teachers are elitist pricks .Schools out for ever. Not in a million years did marx lenin believe that the working class were inferior to themselves. Marx indeed said that he came to his conclusions independently from to different scholars one Morgan.
The other was guess who Joseph Dietzgen a worker. Lenin:


Dietzgen, unlike Engels, expresses his thoughts in a vague, unclear, mushy way. But apart from his defects of exposition and his individual mistakes, he not unsuccessfully champions the "materialist theory of knowledge " (pp. 222 and 271), "dialectical materialism " (p. 224). "The materialist theory of knowledge then," says Dietzgen, "amounts to the recognition that the human organ of perception radiates no metaphysical light, but is a piece of nature which reflects other pieces of nature" (pp. 222-23). "Our perceptive faculty is not a supernatural source of truth, but a mirror-like instrument, which reflects the things of the world, or nature" .
Damned elitist criticism.
Anarchists are full of this holier than thou tiddle taddle.
"we have no leaders" Then the quote you anarchist sources on Spain and trotskys 'put down' of the real revolution in kronstad.
Then Krotopkin Bukharin and now chomsky. Since the only trust their own sources ( puritanical untainted by power)
they become beyond approach. They stuff these authorities in our face.
They are nice people who dont know how hypocritical they are. Or do they really study the 'elitist' enemy . They only serve capitalism by repeating self satisfying propaganda. So as not to think about the problems the revolution which do include education and bringing focus to the movement. Nothing has ever been seen beyond the grasp of the working class and certainly not leadership .




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