German and Russian Empires

[seventeethdecember2016]

Why did the Relationship between the German and Russian Empires change so abruptly?

Here is the Czar Nicholas II and Kaiser Wilhelm II in 1905 exchanging clothes. I've also read that Nicholas II wanted to run Russia like how Kaiser Wilhelm II ran Germany.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/50532/1380548-nich10.jpg

How does this relationship go from this, in 1905, to this in 1914?
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/karten/1918/karte1918+.gif
When did it all go wrong?

[lombas]

Well, the Russian Empire entered in the Triple Alliance in 1907 with the United Kingdom of France.

Some explanation on how it got to do that:

Prussia and Tsarist Russia had good relationships in the first half of the 19th century, having survived the Napoleontic wars as close allies. Together with Austria-Hungary they formed the "Three Emperors' League" in the 1870s. Strict Protestantism met traditional Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity... They were made for eachother.

However, Prussia came late in the industrialization process: only in the 1880s after the creation of the German Empire the motors were well running. And the German empire had reasons to fear industrialization in Russia. You must also remember Poland was absorbed by the three Emperors' states back then so Germany shared an overstretched border with Russia. The Tsar began to look to the UK for means of developing his country, and this brought Russia and Germany in direct competition. Germany realized it had an enormous empire next door with a lot of manpower that could show its industrial power through its alliance with the UK and France.

So when Austria-Hungary "had" to declare war on Serbia and Russia stept in to "protect" its natural ally, Germany had "every reason" to declare war on Russia.

[Grenzer]

This has a lot to do with the death of Otto von Bismarck. He realized the strategic necessity of having Russia friendly to Germany, but after his death, Kaiser Wilhelm II wasn't quite so far-sighted and declined to renew friendly relationships with Russia. France then seized upon the opportunity to forge better relationships with Russia. So you could say the strategic partnership between Russia and Germany fell apart in the 1890's.

[Bronco]

Well right up until the war King George V, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Tsar Nicholas II kept up pretences of good relations - they were all cousins after all! Even after Russia had partially mobilised "Nicky" and "Willy" were corresponding with the former hoping to avoid war with Germany even though by this point it was inevitable

But Britain and Russia had both been concerned about Germany's increasing global, economic and colonial strength - Wilhelm II was an ambitious man - which was the primary motivation for forming the Anglo-Russian entente in 1907, and there was a lot of competition between these nations, especially Germany and Britain with their naval arms race, with the Kaiser wanting to build a naval force that was the strongest in the world

The shooting of Franz Ferdinand of Austria was the spark that lit the fuse though, and because it was carried out by a Serbian the alliance system at the time basically meant you had a situation like this

http://www.johndclare.net/images/Alliances.GIF

So yeah the alliances meant they were doomed to be in conflict with each other over this, a major European war had been brewing for years anyway due to economic, colonial and political competition

[Geiseric]

There was a tonne of capital invested in Russia by France, several hundred million francs. The relational ties from Feudalism though aren't stronger forces than finance capital though.

[Highfructosecornsyrup]

There is a recent book called 'The Three Emperors' where the central theme is the irony that three cousins, George V, Nicholas II, Wilhelm II, were heads of state of Britain, Russia and Germany on eve of great war.

I think it's not particularly shocking, the European aristocracy was extremely cosmopolitan and intermarried. But this pleasant relationship between aristocracies (of variable actual influence in their respective polities) didn't override the sharp national differences of the period between rival imperialisms.

[Geiseric]

They're all rich inbred racist ****s, the french revolution happened for a reason.

[lombas]

There is a recent book called 'The Three Emperors' where the central theme is the irony that three cousins, George V, Nicholas II, Wilhelm II, were heads of state of Britain, Russia and Germany on eve of great war.

I think it's not particularly shocking, the European aristocracy was extremely cosmopolitan and intermarried. But this pleasant relationship between aristocracies (of variable actual influence in their respective polities) didn't override the sharp national differences of the period between rival imperialisms.

This can indeed be said of many great wars that were fought.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why did the Relationship between the German and Russian Empires change so abruptly?

When did it all go wrong?

That's a good question that I don't know the specific answer to. I think it can be shown in other examples though that this is sort of the nature of the "warring band of brothers" nature of capitalism.

The US and Japanese companies were working closely together right up until the eve of World War I and US capital helped to create Japan's increasing industrial power in the first place.

If the US and China ever go to war, one of the sacrifices to the larger respective projects of American and Chinese imperialism will be a lot of money and investments by capitalists of each country. But the larger logic of the system would still force these countries to eventually come into some kind of conflict, despite their economic inter-relations.

I'd assume it was the same in WWI. Germany and Russia had a lot of economic ties and they had more or less the same interests as rising industrialists boxed in by the way the capitalist deck was shuffled at that time. America, Italy and Russia were all sort of wild cards I guess who might have gone on one or other side of the conflict. All of these countries needed some kind of shake-up in the imperial order for them to expand whereas Great Britain and France wanted the staus quo maintained and Germany specifically needed the British status quo upended as the biggest industrial power with much less imperial sway.

[l'Enfermé]

It has mostly to do with the friction between the Habsburgs and the Romanovs, Wilhelm as you might know was a pretty incompetent ruler(as was Nicholas) and he wasn't able to prevent a break between Russia and Austria-Hungary, and since Austria-Hungary were best buddies...

It's also interesting to note that the Russian Empire stood to gain nearly nothing from the war, and if they joined on Germany's side the war would have finished with a German-Austrian-Russian-Turkish victory rather fast. The Russians woul stand much to gain in Asia and especially in India if the British Empire collapsed and the Germans would be betting at aiding economic development in Russia than French-English investors were till that point(implying Germany and Russia maintained friendly relations and Wilhelm didn't just invade Russia also afterwards, but how likely is that?)

[lombas]

It has mostly to do with the friction between the Habsburgs and the Romanovs, Wilhelm as you might know was a pretty incompetent ruler(as was Nicholas) and he wasn't able to prevent a break between Russia and Austria-Hungary, and since Austria-Hungary were best buddies...

It's also interesting to note that the Russian Empire stood to gain nearly nothing from the war, and if they joined on Germany's side the war would have finished with a German-Austrian-Russian-Turkish victory rather fast. The Russians woul stand much to gain in Asia and especially in India if the British Empire collapsed and the Germans would be betting at aiding economic development in Russia than French-English investors were till that point(implying Germany and Russia maintained friendly relations and Wilhelm didn't just invade Russia also afterwards, but how likely is that?)

The Russians had a keen interest in direct access to the Mediterranean Sea, so the Turks were natural enemies and the Balkan states natural allies. To gain influence, Tsarist Russia had been fighting wars since the second half of the 18th century.

Where do you get Russia was keen on gaining ground in India?

And on Germany "not" invading Russia: they took the Russian part of Poland, Ukraine, parts of Belarus, the Baltic states, ...?

[Geiseric]

Russia was trying to get to constantinople, that was the entire myth that the Czars thought that they could accomplish by decimating their people in wars.

I have no respect for any monarchy, because their entire image insults human dignity. They are better than you so you will obey. They have no logic that any of us would have since they are sheltered their entire lives and develop a mindset that is beyond bourgeois in character.

[Nox]

Where do you get Russia was keen on gaining ground in India?


This is true. We learned about it in History not too long ago, remember that the Russian Empire made huge expansions in Central Asia that were pretty much only stopped because of the British control of India and some surrounding areas. The USSR also had imperialist interests in India.

[lombas]

This is true. We learned about it in History not too long ago, remember that the Russian Empire made huge expansions in Central Asia that were pretty much only stopped because of the British control of India and some surrounding areas. The USSR also had imperialist interests in India.

Yes, I'm aware of Russia's (successful) ambitions in Central Asia and of the (diplomatic) conflict with Britain over Aghanistan, but to say this shows Russia's desire to meddle in Indian affairs is a bit premature - from what I know.

It's like saying the Russo-Persian wars are a sign of Russian ambition to conquer Iran...

If Russia hadn't joined the Entente but the Central Powers instead, Japan would've planned to occupy Eastern Russia earlier. Afghanistan and Iran stood as neutral powers, both afraid of British influence (and for Iran: of Ottomans meddling in their affairs). It loosens up the Ottomans, because Gallipoli wouldn't have occured as the troops were probably needed elsewhere; but then again that's not such a bad thing as the campaign was a disaster anyway. I'm not sure what the general benefit of Russia as a Central Power would have been.

But whatever, this is experimental historiography, and anything experimental isn't factual.

:)

[ComradeOm]

Why did the Relationship between the German and Russian Empires change so abruptly?In a word (or two): the Balkans. Russian and Austrian imperial ambitions in that region were irreconcilable and ultimately Berlin would have to back one at the expense of the other. It was always likely to favour a pliant Vienna over a potential rival in St Petersburg

Slightly longer explanation is that the rot had set in long before 1905. The real turning point came in 1878 when the Bismarcked-backed Congress of Berlin overturned the Treaty of San Stefano, in which Russia had imposed a large Bulgarian state on the Ottomans. This, followed by a closer alliance with Vienna, set the German diplomatic course for the next few decades and left the door open for France to escape its international isolation

It took a decade or so for the mistrust between the Tsardom and the Republic to dissolve but by the late 1880s the Franco-Russian alliance, as economic as it was diplomatic/military, was taking shape and it was finalised in 1892. Bismarck has often escaped the blame for this, due to his dismissal, but it was the logical outcome of his Austria-first policy and alliance building


This is true. We learned about it in History not too long ago, remember that the Russian Empire made huge expansions in Central Asia that were pretty much only stopped because of the British control of India and some surrounding areasThe Russians never seriously entertained any idea of expanding into India. It took decades alone to conquer and secure the Central Asian khanates and by 1887 agreement with London had been reached on the Afghan border. The whole 'Great Game' was largely played out in the imagination of English adventurers and ex-public schoolboys seeking excitement in the East


Well right up until the war King George V, Kaiser Wilhelm II and Tsar Nicholas II kept up pretences of good relations - they were all cousins after all! Even after Russia had partially mobilised "Nicky" and "Willy" were corresponding with the former hoping to avoid war with Germany even though by this point it was inevitable If anyone is interested, the relevant telegrams can be found here (http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams)