Should we as Leftists enjoy commodities?

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

I was talking with another leftist comrade one day about if we should enjoy our "commodities" such as television, when many of the oppressed peoples of the world are put under the thumb of capitalism. I believe that we should be able to enjoy such minor things, until of course a Socialist Revolution occurs, and in which we'd be able to devout ourselves to helping our fellow proletarians. So should we as leftists enjoy commodities, or should we abandon them to assist the poor and the oppressed?

[Welshy]

I was talking with another leftist comrade one day about if we should enjoy our "commodities" such as television, when many of the oppressed peoples of the world are put under the thumb of capitalism. I believe that we should be able to enjoy such minor things, until of course a Socialist Revolution occurs, and in which we'd be able to devout ourselves to helping our fellow proletarians. So should we as leftists enjoy commodities, or should we abandon them to assist the poor and the oppressed?

Communism/socialism isn't a system of morals. It would make no difference for the lives of the working class if the left gave up our worldly goods or just stopped buying new things.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

Communism/socialism isn't a system of morals. It would make no difference for the lives of the working class if the left gave up our worldly goods or just stopped buying new things.

There seems to have been good debates pertaining to this, as some make Communism/Socialism to be a moral guide, while some dont.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Not enjoying them isn't going to make the socialist revolution get here any faster... plus if we don't utilize the mediums of communications the commodities can offer than we are selling ourselves short.

[Ostrinski]

Why does it seem like we go through this every week..

Communism is not a lifestyle or moral code. Adopting lifestyle choices because of your political beliefs is a slippery slope into moving into the woods and raising goats. The idea is to fight capitalism, not escape from it. I enjoy coca-cola and apple products. Doesn't mean I'm somehow not a communist.

[tbasherizer]

I think you misunderstand what a commodity is, or you haven't read much Marx.

Us leftists should live however we feel liked doing, so long as we fulfil our role as educators and agitators amongst the working class. The grand objective folding out of history doesn't care what you or I do as individuals (it doesn't 'care' at all, in fact)- it is social contradiction brought about by changing material conditions that makes the Revolution inevitable, not our level of devoutness to asceticism.

In shorter and less grandiose terms, whatever floats your boat- just don't be an asshole about it ;).

[teflon_john]

there's probably conflict minerals in the computer you posted this from, bruh.

[Ned Kelly]

Last time I checked we weren't primitivists

[roy]

There seems to have been good debates pertaining to this, as some make Communism/Socialism to be a moral guide, while some dont.

It's really not though. Marx didn't come down from a mountain with the holy commandments of socialism. You can't help but participate in the oppressive capitalist system unless you go completely off the grid and wear clothes that you made by sewing rabbit skins together (while you're doing that workers will still be exploited anyway).

[gorillafuck]

of course you can have commodities.

[MotherCossack]

oh ... was it religon that someone or other said was the opiate of the masses.
i suppose that all these high-tech toys do present us with a cheap easy thrill....
and state upheaval is such an arduous task... bound to century long set-backs and mammoth disappointment....
and since we are only around for about 5 minutes... we cant really be expected to give it all up just for the satisfaction of not knowing that our lives may have contributed to furthering the cause by 0.5 millimetres .
its a bit of a no brainer really.... if no one else is giving anything up or making an effort why should anyone else....
and anyway... what is the point... we are not religious fanatics or anything....
it seems a shame though.... no upheaval ever happens unless the majority are severely uncomfortable to the point of endangerment....
so it seems to me like we shouldn't go around holding our breath.... cos it looks like we are in for a hell of a wait.....
what scares me is that i wouldn't wanna bet on us getting our shit together and sorting out a fairer state of affairs before our consumptive greed threatens either the global ecosystem or implodes and we all die like the incas in a mysterious quagmire of our own making

[Zealot]

No. This is like the utopian environmentalists who think that changing our lifestyles and consumption of commodities will save our world's resources and environment. If you think a few leftists refusing to consume products of exploitation is going to change anything you're terribly mistaken. You could do it out of pity but the oppressed don't need you to stop consuming their products, they need revolution.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Of course we should. I enjoy reading books that further my consciousness of the world, it's almost unavoidable to enjoy some sort of commodity. Unless you're the freakin' epic mountain man of Utah. And even he enjoys the commodities he steals!

[Nuvem]

Should we as Leftists enjoy commodities?

I should say that I quite thoroughly enjoy food and water and clothing. Everything you have and use is a commodity until markets no longer exist, unless you're literally surviving off of wild plants and wearing only animal furs that you've stitched together with a rock-sharpened chicken bone from a chicken you stole from a farm and slaughtered, using the chicken's sinew as thread, making your home in a tree somewhere in the deep mountains so no one can find and arrest you for being a chicken thief/ chicken murderer/ poacher/ trespasser/ squatter.

[Luís Henrique]

I was talking with another leftist comrade one day about if we should enjoy our "commodities" such as television, when many of the oppressed peoples of the world are put under the thumb of capitalism. I believe that we should be able to enjoy such minor things, until of course a Socialist Revolution occurs, and in which we'd be able to devout ourselves to helping our fellow proletarians. So should we as leftists enjoy commodities, or should we abandon them to assist the poor and the oppressed?

We don't enjoy commodities, we enjoy use values. There is nothing wrong with enjoying use values, as long as they aren't used in destructive or oppressive ways. In a capitalist society, most use values are commodified; one could not live a proper life without engaging in the act of buying.

Enjoying commodities for the sake of their commodified nature, on the other hand, is a disease - consumerism. Those afflicted buy commodities for no good reason - or "for reasons", as the slang goes - just for the pleasure they take in the act of buying. It is a disease intimately related to the capitalist mode of production.

Some confuse the above with the idea that consumerism is buying "useless" commodities, and may even measure the usefulness of commodities by an ad hoc moral code (the kind of people who will tell you that automobiles are "useless" because you can ride a bycicle, or simply walk). But it is just an instance of ideological blindness.

On the other hand, we oppose the commodification of use values; we believe they should be alocated in proportion to the needs of individuals, not in proportion to their supposed merits, much less in proportion to the amount of money they have. This does not mean that we oppose the use of use values, much on the contrary - we want them accessible for everyone that needs them. We don't want militarily (or religiously) organised scarcity, we want abundance.

Of course, a socialist system would destroy the social conditions in which consumerism is based, and consequently would put an end to consumerism. But that comes as a collateral effect of socialism; it is not the aim of a socialist revolution.

Luís Henrique

[Veovis]

I was talking with another leftist comrade one day about if we should enjoy our "commodities" such as television, when many of the oppressed peoples of the world are put under the thumb of capitalism. I believe that we should be able to enjoy such minor things, until of course a Socialist Revolution occurs, and in which we'd be able to devout ourselves to helping our fellow proletarians. So should we as leftists enjoy commodities, or should we abandon them to assist the poor and the oppressed?

Should we stop eating because millions starve?

[Althusser]

There seems to have been good debates pertaining to this, as some make Communism/Socialism to be a moral guide, while some dont.

Communism and socialism are purely economic. If one calls themself a "Marxist" though, other beliefs and opinions that aren't economic based like religious views and such (etc.) come into play. Capitalism doesn't have a moral code, so neither does socialism. In Adam Smith capitalism, why would a government stop human trafficing? Business is the first priority. It is purely econimic. Fascism though, is a government system that has nationalistic ideals and such. According to person in charge, the level of extremity differs.

In socialism, the people would collectively decide on the laws and what the country should be focusing on. This is just what would go on under a socialist economic system. The people would be focused on education and healthcare, things that are completely overlooked in America, instead of weapon and war plane manufacturers because there would be no corporations to brainwash the people to basically steal everyone's money for their pointless military endeavors. I say their because our government basically is one with the corporations. I'm not trying to derail this thread, but to some it up, socialism is economic BUT that type of system will breed moral behavior and good economic desicions that would benefit the people.

[ckaihatsu]

it seems a shame though.... no upheaval ever happens unless the majority are severely uncomfortable to the point of endangerment....


I think this, though, is as much of a misnomer as the "ascetic activist" -- it's not necessarily that the *people* have to become 'severely uncomfortable' enough to revolt, but rather that *the system* has to become "severely uncomfortable", in the sense that its internal contradictions build up to where the logic of *overthrowing* that system becomes obvious to nearly everyone.

[Registered User]

You do realize that you used commodities to ask that question right?

[thriller]

As a worker, I sell my labor for a wage. With those wages, I buy certain things like food, shelter, utilities, and even commodities such as music, computer hardware, and drugs. Proletarians have the right to buy anything they want with their wages, or else, why would they bother selling their labor for a wage? My anthropology teacher said most Marxists reject things like iPhones and expensive cars and clothes because they are 'excessive commodities.' I think she made that up, but does anyone know of any Marxists speaking to this?

[dodger]

Karl Marx quoted by the many-----read by the few. Still true today, even with greater literacy. Who gives a dried fig what Thriller spends his money on. Wifey has more shoes than Imelda Marcos, have bit my tongue a few times. However she is the stingiest woman on the planet(my reason for marrying her) her clothes are often 2nd hand the shoes get passed on. Since stopping alcohol she has not bought a single pair. An added benefit she had enough money to buy a telescope to view the cosmos. The only time Wifey has ever spent money on her self. Good luck to her I say....she works for every peso....."excessive commodities" it's all relative, but more to the point it's nobodies business but yer own.:)

[Thirsty Crow]

I was talking with another leftist comrade one day about if we should enjoy our "commodities" such as television, when many of the oppressed peoples of the world are put under the thumb of capitalism. I believe that we should be able to enjoy such minor things, until of course a Socialist Revolution occurs, and in which we'd be able to devout ourselves to helping our fellow proletarians. So should we as leftists enjoy commodities, or should we abandon them to assist the poor and the oppressed?
And just how would you "assist the poor and the opressed" without the means of organizing such as the access to electricity, food, the means of communication? All of the things we consume and use are commodities, and it would be a foolish, essentially lifestylist agenda to decide to live below the poverty line, presumably just to show some kind of a moral solidarity. That's not how the working class will gain anything in our militancy, organisation, or knowledge. Basically, this is liberal guilt bullshit.

[NoPasaran1936]

I enjoy things like television, radios, music etc etc.

I will buy what will make me happy (there is a limitation) with what I want with my wages, ideally, I want everyone to enjoy everything I enjoy, as socialists/anarchists our main goal is to ensure that we're not exploiting people through a wage system to maximise equality.

Video games can bring people together, where they can relax and play with each other, is there anything immoral about that? Well, depends who you are, but I sure as hell won't. I enjoy coming home from work, and relaxing with what I have purchased, I don't like the idea people must slave themselves off to afford it, which is why I believe in socialism.

Everyone shouldn't be entitled to things because of what they do, they should be entitled to it because of who they are - a proletariat.