Masturbation and Pornography;

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I wanted to know how many ultra-conservative communists are still around that feel we should actively censor pornography as it is degrading. If anyone feels that this is so horrible, then why can the case not be made with an argument against it?

[Caj]

I oppose the censorship of pornography so long as it is consensual (including for wages).

For-pay pornography is exploitative in the same way that any other form of wage labor is exploitative. Censoring pornography would be even worse for the workers involved because it would deprive them of their wages.

When it comes to "amateur pornography", i.e., pornography that is completely voluntary with no wages involved, I don't think there is anything exploitative.

[bricolage]

porn threads on this forum are really boring, as they are normally 99% made up of horny teenagers talking about how much they wank.

[lombas]

East German sex education.

True story.

[Anarchrusty]

East German sex education.

True story.

I'm sorry, I didn't get that. Could you elaborate?

[daft punk]

yeah, in a socialist society everyone would have a proper job so there would be little or no commercial porn. It would just get replaced by amateur stuff which is fine. No point in censoring that. In the transition, I would think some porn would be censored and some wouldnt.

[bricolage]

yeah, in a socialist society everyone would have a proper job so there would be little or no commercial porn.
what's a 'proper job'? why would everyone have a 'proper job' under socialism? why is working in porn not a 'proper job'?

[Valdyr]

As others have said, commercial porn production is exploitative in the way any wage labor is, I don't see anything special about it. It is just another industry, and as such if people want to keep doing it under socialism, I see no reason they shouldn't.

I certainly don't see pornography as exploitative in some metaphysical sense, as against human dignity or something. That sort of argument - that we should be sexual "pessimists" - seems like a bunch of hand-waving to attempt to enforce bourgeois sexual codes.

[StalinFanboy]

I think the only problem with porn is that very often re-enforces certain behavioral norms that are quite honestly repulsive.

[Registered User]

Pornography is a representation of patriarchy and has no place in a future socialist society.I can't understand why you don't see that

[StalinFanboy]

Pornography is a representation of patriarchy and has no place in a future socialist society.I can't understand why you don't see that

are you going to stop women that enjoy doing it?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Pornography is a representation of patriarchy and has no place in a future socialist society.I can't understand why you don't see that

Elaborate please.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Guys, no matter how much you want to click on threads that have the words "Masturbation" and "Pornography" in their titles, don't do it.:laugh:

I can see into my crystal ball and I know that this is most likely going to end badly.

[Prometeo liberado]

Pornography is a representation of patriarchy and has no place in a future socialist society.I can't understand why you don't see that

Porn star Nina Hartley, radical feminist and communist, is a huge advocate of porn. I have read quotes of hers that promote the making of porn as a "sexual celebration and liberation" of sorts.

[Ostrinski]

Fuck porn

[Valdyr]

Can the anti-porn folks at least provide some arguments?

I can see how some specific instances of pornography are instruments of patriarchy, of bourgeois ideology, etc., but I still don't see how porn sui generis is a problem or going to go away in a socialist society.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

The tittle of this thread is gonna cause a lot of male views:D

I actually am interested in this topic. I have never really thought about porn in a socialist and free society. I can definatley see were both sides are coming from.

[Tim Cornelis]

Aren't most A-pornstars technically self-employed and filthy rich?


Pornography is a representation of patriarchy and has no place in a future socialist society.I can't understand why you don't see that

How is two men having consensual sex on camera a representation of oppression of women exactly?

And, also, you cannot force people to behave non-patriarchal if it's consensual.

[Ele'ill]

This is a general reminder and last warning against one-liners and off topic conversation. Those who want to continue making shit posts will be infracted for each.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

On the one hand, porn stars a generally rich and cut off from the way the average people live. Then again, what right to I have to tell a woman/man what he/she can and can't do. If she/he consents to it, than in a socialist and non-authoritarian society what right is there to stop it?

At the same time, some porn could not be considered "liberating", etc. as jbeard put it. Some porn is just exploitative and reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes.

...btw anyone who makes a joke about me saying "one the one hand" is immature and should go back to their high school stoner friends...

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

This is a general reminder and last warning against one-liners and off topic conversation. Those who want to continue making shit posts will be infracted for each.

It is actually quite an important subject, i read an article in Spiegel about how porn was outlawed in the GDR but some party members made amateur porn films, so, i dont think you even could stop it if you wanted to. This was a big thing in the past for "communist" countries, "stopping immoral content" so i think it's a relevant thread. I don't how this is in any violation is it, discussing morality, sexuality, where is the problem?

[Ele'ill]

It is actually quite an important subject, i read an article in Spiegel about how porn was outlawed in the GDR but some party members made amateur porn films, so, i dont think you even could stop it if you wanted to. This was a big thing in the past for "communist" countries, "stopping immoral content" so i think it's a relevant thread. I don't how this is in any violation is it, discussing morality, sexuality, where is the problem?

Infraction for attempted thread derailment. Reread my post where I suggested users make on-topic and non shit posts.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

It is actually quite an important subject, i read an article in Spiegel about how porn was outlawed in the GDR but some party members made amateur porn films, so, i dont think you even could stop it if you wanted to. This was a big thing in the past for "communist" countries, "stopping immoral content" so i think it's a relevant thread. I don't how this is in any violation is it, discussing morality, sexuality, where is the problem?

It is not the thread itself that is the problem, I think, but rather the people who are posting memes and single line replies aimed at creating trouble and rep farming that are the deal.

[R_P_A_S]

I wish there was a % number out there that shows how many of these girls have social and emotional problems and that's why they turn to pornography. I'm sure there's a few in that Porn world who didn't have a fucked up childhood that just do it to do it.. But Im confident that the vast majority of these women get into porn for deeper issues than "wanting to get paid for sex" and in a society that values human development over exploitation of others for profit we would address these womens issues and offer them a better chance of making a living rather than abusing/exploiting their vulnerability.

[Ocean Seal]

Infraction for attempted thread derailment. Reread my post where I suggested users make on-topic and non shit posts.
I don't think that he was attempting to derail the thread.
And some people feel that pornography would be inherently exploitative as it exists within the patriarchy.

[Prometeo liberado]

On the one hand, porn stars a generally rich and cut off from the way the average people live. Then again, what right to I have to tell a woman/man what he/she can and can't do. If she/he consents to it, than in a socialist and non-authoritarian society what right is there to stop it?

At the same time, some porn could not be considered "liberating", etc. as jbeard put it. Some porn is just exploitative and reinforces sexism and sexist stereotypes.

...btw anyone who makes a joke about me saying "one the one hand" is immature and should go back to their high school stoner friends...

Let's be clear when we attempt to quote someone. I did not say that porn was liberating. What I did do was offer a quote from a woman who is very successful as well as a radical feminist, in the porn business. I gave you her name and stated that it was a quote.
Second, you state that "Some porn is just exploitative..". As it pertains to being legal then by this standard most slasher and blacksploitation films should be outlawed as well. Or does is the image of scripted exploitation become less palatable when combined with consensual sex?

[9]

I wish there was a % number out there that shows how many of these girls have social and emotional problems and that's why they turn to pornography. I'm sure there's a few in that Porn world who didn't have a fucked up childhood that just do it to do it.. But Im confident that the vast majority of these women get into porn for deeper issues than "wanting to get paid for sex" and in a society that values human development over exploitation of others for profit we would address these womens issues and offer them a better chance of making a living rather than abusing/exploiting their vulnerability.

Its interesting that you make this assumption about the women involved, but not about the men. I wonder why that is...

[revhiphop]

I haven't been here long but I think I know where this is going.. lol

[R_P_A_S]

Its interesting that you make this assumption about the women involved, but not about the men. I wonder why that is...

I was ONLY talking about women. I've read stories about men with the same issues as the women. Porn industry focuses more about the "big name" women performers than the men.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Pornography is a representation of patriarchy
Even gay male porn? :rolleyes:

[blake 3:17]

Great Male Burden.

[9]

I was ONLY talking about women.

I know, that was my point. I would imagine there are at least as many men who work in the pornography industry as there are women. But the whole "poor little [porn stars], they must be so traumatized and emotionally damaged to stoop to doing that for a living" mentality only ever seems to apply to women.

[.45]

It seems to me that if people are exploited in porn, they are only being exploited by themselves. Having done a porn myself, I can say that I didn't feel exploited or taken advantage of; I received $500 for 15 minutes of my time and I am sure the woman made even more than that. I see nothing wrong with people wanting to participate in or view pornography.

[Quail]

I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to put masturbation in the title, because I don't think masturbation is a controversial topic at all. It's a natural, healthy thing to do.

I have mixed feelings on porn. I think that sex workers are exploited just like any other workers and I don't have a problem with the idea of porn, more a problem with the sex industry under capitalism I suppose.

I don't like the standards of beauty that the industry promotes. I don't like the hairlessness and the size of the mens' penises. Nearly every man I've been involved with has had insecurities about the size of their penis. I also find things like "barely legal girls" a bit of a creepy concept.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Pornography is about sexual fantasy to the people who look at it. What one person finds disgusting, another finds exciting. Any cursory glance at internet sites suggests that there are a myriad different preferences, some very specific and to my mind rather bizarre. That's how humans are. Is it exploiting the people who work in the field? No doubt, this is capitalism. Communists should understand that consensual sexual acts are not something that the state has any business banning or criminalizing. There are any number of tendencies on the left that take moralistic stands on pornography or in worse cases even homosexuality. Proletarian revolution should usher in a period of sexual liberation -- liberation from the old morals and the developing of new and different kinds of relationships between humans.

[revhiphop]

Ok guys really this is a simple topic. As long as they are consenting adults and it isnt discriminatory towards one gender, it shouldn't be censored!

[Caj]

Ok guys really this is a simple topic. As long as they are consenting adults and it isnt discriminatory towards one gender, it shouldn't be censored!

How do you determine whether or not it's discriminatory towards one gender? Some people would say all pornography is discriminatory towards women. (I disagree, but I'm just curious as to how you would propose distinguishing between discriminatory and non-discriminatory pornography.)

[Sasha]

Like I continue to repeat in every porn/prostitution/etc thread;


the problem with the sex-industry is that its a industry

Next question?

[gorillafuck]

I know, that was my point. I would imagine there are at least as many men who work in the pornography industry as there are women.they make a lot less money at it, too. porn is probably the only industry that is more exploitative towards men than women.

this thread is tl;dr but porn is exploitative because wage labor etc. and if you think there will never be porn then get a grip etc.

[Prometeo liberado]

An important point here has been made more than once. There is a difference between Porn and the Porn Industry. The very act of actors engaging in this act (yes I know, ample amounts of alliteration, get over it.) can not be judged under the same criteria that the pron industry must. IMO.

[Althusser]

In a socialist country though, why would anyone want to be employed as a pornstar? They are mostly in it for the wages.

[gorillafuck]

In a socialist country though, why would anyone want to be employed as a pornstar? They are mostly in it for the wages.I dunno some people just like making sex tapes.

[StalinFanboy]

I wish there was a % number out there that shows how many of these girls have social and emotional problems and that's why they turn to pornography. I'm sure there's a few in that Porn world who didn't have a fucked up childhood that just do it to do it.. But Im confident that the vast majority of these women get into porn for deeper issues than "wanting to get paid for sex" and in a society that values human development over exploitation of others for profit we would address these womens issues and offer them a better chance of making a living rather than abusing/exploiting their vulnerability.

I think its strange that people want so badly to attribute "perverse" sexual behavior to trauma or having some sort of problem. I mean beyond the fact that we are ALL traumatized and damaged in some way or another simply by being a part of and a product of this fucked world, could it not be that some people get off by knowing other people are getting off to them? Or get off by doing things that society deems "wrong"?

This is not to say of course that the things you brought up aren't or can't be a contributing factor (for men and women).

[Prometeo liberado]

I dunno some people just like making sex tapes.

I like to visit my friend in Edinburgh. We make Scotch-sex-tapes. If I'm feeling dark I make electrical-sex-tapes. When I'm feeling randy I make double-sided-sex-tapes. Some people indeed!

[PhantomRei]

You have to kind in mind that the feminist critique of porn isn't grounded in puritanism or statism, nor an objection to all forms of sexual media, but one that is critical of the misogyny inherent in mainstream porn.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I'm not entirely sure why it was necessary to put masturbation in the title, because I don't think masturbation is a controversial topic at all. It's a natural, healthy thing to do.

I have mixed feelings on porn. I think that sex workers are exploited just like any other workers and I don't have a problem with the idea of porn, more a problem with the sex industry under capitalism I suppose.

I don't like the standards of beauty that the industry promotes. I don't like the hairlessness and the size of the mens' penises. Nearly every man I've been involved with has had insecurities about the size of their penis. I also find things like "barely legal girls" a bit of a creepy concept.

Well normally porn is distributed to viewers... that happen to masturbate to it. This was a big problem when you talk to certain people (not having porn that is). Personally i have very low opinions on paid porn, creating a market exchange business out of it and that the fact is that in capitalism you have no guarantee for a stable life and are therefore driven to the "glamorous" acting business. About the Penis size complex, that i find very odd really... it must have something to do with never seeing other men naked. At least i have never given that a real worried thought, but then again it depends on whether you have grown up in cultures that do not treat nudity as a taboo. The thing that always wondered me though about East Germany, is that it is said to have had great sex, but yet distribution of porn was not allowed. So, just a sincere thought. Maybe i should have posted this thread in theory...

[Crux]

I think pornography by and large is formed by the society we live in and as such it is deeply messed up. Not because of this or that sexual practice or this or that fetish. because surely no one is arguing that pornography is free of the commodification, sexism and racism that runs through capitalist society in general? I mean it's quite readily apparent.

[Franz Fanonipants]

my only real problem w/porn is the industrialization of sexuality

well also that it really can fuck up people's expectations of their sex lives too

[NoPasaran1936]

I'll admit, I watch porn. But I'm very picky with what I watch as I don't wish to offend my girlfriend (whom often watches it with me if we wish to have sex, long-story, don't ask).

But I've often view porn as a safety valve in society, and also believe it would remain that way in a socialist/communist society. Of course, the adults must be consenting and both agree if they wish to produce and distribute porn.

My reason why I see it as a safety valve is simple; people want a release from the pressures of life. Masturbation is a known way to calm down, porn of course as an aid in masturbation. But also for couples, or how many other people participating in sex is a way to gain ideas in ways to maximise their experience. Sex is wonderful, and I disapprove of anyone arguing otherwise. People can use it to unwind after a busy day, rather than resorting to other methods.

Rape is commonly down to power; humiliation and control. A lot of today's porn is quite sexist, in the sense it is the male dominating the woman. If pornography were to take a turn, and have a lack of domination, perhaps we'll see decrease in sexual assault as men should (I won't say will, as I'm purely speculating) appreciate the female body even more and wouldn't see porn as a way to justify their urges. (I'm talking about BDSM here) However, I'd like to hear from a female comrade on this section of my thoughts, as I've never actually had a proper conversation about porn with a marxist/anarcho-feminist.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Let's be clear when we attempt to quote someone. I did not say that porn was liberating. What I did do was offer a quote from a woman who is very successful as well as a radical feminist, in the porn business. I gave you her name and stated that it was a quote.
Second, you state that "Some porn is just exploitative..". As it pertains to being legal then by this standard most slasher and blacksploitation films should be outlawed as well. Or does is the image of scripted exploitation become less palatable when combined with consensual sex?

Oh, sorry dude!:crying: That was the impression I got!

[gorillafuck]

Well normally porn is distributed to viewers... that happen to masturbate to it.I watch it for the character development.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I watch it for the character development.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

In a socialist country though, why would anyone want to be employed as a pornstar? They are mostly in it for the wages.

Dangerous road.

In a Socialist country, why would anybody want to be a cleaner? Why would anybody want to be a manual labourer? Why would anybody want to be a tea lady? Why would anybody want to be a builder?

You are talking from the bent of subjectivity. In reality, being a pornstar is just another job, albeit one which has an element of taboo attached to it. But then - from our political perspective anyway - who cares? Socialism is not a moralistic ideology.

[Princess Luna]

I watch it for the character development.
To be fair the character development in porn is about equal to the character development in most big budget Hollywood movies

[Ostrinski]

I think zeekloid was only half joking, some porn actually does have a good story.

[MaximMK]

Why care if it dies out we got enough clips for a lifetime already.

[l'Enfermé]

I'm not fine with the notion that women have to sell their bodies in order to earn a wage that provides a somewhat decent life(in the developed world, that is, do you think Eastern European porn actresses earn enough to lead "decent" lives?). My position on prostitution is the same.

[#FF0000]

I'm not fine with the notion that women have to sell their bodies in order to earn a wage that provides a somewhat decent life(in the developed world, that is, do you think Eastern European porn actresses earn enough to lead "decent" lives?). My position on prostitution is the same.

I'm pretty much with you but they're both basically the same as any other sort of work.

[Ostrinski]

I have never masturbated. Is this normal?

[NewLeft]

I have never masturbated. Is this normal?
If you're not into sex, sure. Why wouldn't it be..?

[Prometeo liberado]

I have never masturbated. Is this normal?

Next time you find yourself with some free time lock the door and go for it. See what you come up with, get creative. Treat your body like a goddamn Hungry, Hungry Hippo game. At the end of the day your all you got!http://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/001_smile.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/sad.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/wink.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/001_cool.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/lol.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/crying.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/blushing.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies/confused1.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/glare.gifhttp://www.revleft.com/vb/masturbation-and-pornography-t169302/revleft/smilies2/scared.gif

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I have never masturbated. Is this normal?

Like the Nike commercials say, "Just do it."

Unless you cannot (go see a doctor).

Or unless you do not want to (then you are most likely asexual).

[gorillafuck]

I have never masturbated. Is this normal?no that is not normal but this is a thread in discrimination so it's not the place to discuss getting off

[Captain Marvelous]

Of course porn shouldn't be censored. That's ridiculous.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wish there was a % number out there that shows how many of these girls have social and emotional problems and that's why they turn to pornography. I'm sure there's a few in that Porn world who didn't have a fucked up childhood that just do it to do it.. But Im confident that the vast majority of these women get into porn for deeper issues than "wanting to get paid for sex" and in a society that values human development over exploitation of others for profit we would address these womens issues and offer them a better chance of making a living rather than abusing/exploiting their vulnerability.

There are definitely people who gravitated towards porn (it could be argued) because of abuse in their younger lives, but there are also definitely women who just do it because they like getting paid. I remember watching the Tyra Banks show (a far more embarrasing admission than admitting to watching porn), with Sasha Grey on as the guest, and when she was asked whether she was ever abused or mistreated as a child she flatly said "No." She said she was planning to retire before she was 21 or something, due to the amount of money she was making in the industry.

Granted she had to fuck a lot of people in order to do that, but I don't judge. Gotta do what you gotta do man.

There's a documentary though called "Made in Serbia", about the Serbian porn industry, and those people literally fuck to eat. No joke. But someone who stitches shoes in southeast Asia probably also lives in very different circumstances than someone who works in an American shoe factory, so I don't think porn is unlike any other industry in that respect, other than the subject matter being somewhat socially taboo.

[seventeethdecember2016]

mod edit to remove family guy video clip that was half related to discussion (Mari3L)

[Franz Fanonipants]

I remember watching the Tyra Banks show (a far more embarrasing admission than admitting to watching porn), with Sasha Grey on as the guest, and when she was asked whether she was ever abused or mistreated as a child she flatly said "No." She said she was planning to retire before she was 21 or something, due to the amount of money she was making in the industry.

i once had a short email interview w/Sasha Grey about anticapitalism and her views on proletarian empowerment.

she was p. cool but i often wonder like if it is/will be easy for her to get out of the porn industry

the movies she's been in that are mainstream have been p. blah

[Ele'ill]

Havee3333333, in the future please don't just post youtube videos or pictures with no other input around them. Thanks.

[godlessfilthycommiedog]

Quite honestly, I don't see WHERE pornography would fit into a revolutionary society, except as maybe amateur. I don't think that people actually suggest that pornstars should be PAID the same as a worker, who, instead of just fucking people in front of a camera, has been doing things all day. Or maybe I'm wrong. But that's still pretty fucking crazy :lol:

[Princess Luna]

Quite honestly, I don't see WHERE pornography would fit into a revolutionary society, except as maybe amateur. I don't think that people actually suggest that pornstars should be PAID the same as a worker, who, instead of just fucking people in front of a camera, has been doing things all day. Or maybe I'm wrong. But that's still pretty fucking crazy :lol:
Why shouldn't they be paid the same? They are helping produce something just the same as a worker who operates a machine all day. And what about non-pornographic actors, authors, musicians, and other media producers?Also if you are implying acting in porn is easy and fun, you try having sex in a very spefic way with the same person over and over and over and over for a few hours and tell me how it feels

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I can't help but notice that people tend to assume "live action" or something along those lines when they think of pornography. But how on Earth did we make the stuff before the invention of the camera and film? I'm sure that even if it turns out that the demand for pornography far exceeds what can be provided by individuals willing to go into such a line of work in the context of a communist society, there will be plenty of talented artists who have the same urges as the rest of us and who are willing to share their creations with the rest of the world.


Why shouldn't they be paid the same?

They shouldn't be paid at all. The goal of achieving communism is always threatened so long as money exists. If we can't devise an economic system that provides for all in an egalitarian and non-alienating fashion, then the whole project is doomed.

[arilando]

Any form of porn, or really any video, should be legal.

[Avocado]

Pornography is just plain stupid. It is degrading both to men and women. To become a superstar because of the size of your dick or how much you can shoot is clearly insane, as is what size your tits are or whether you will spit or swallow.:cursing:

I am not saying that people do not have sexual fantasies and sex drives but pornography and prostitution is exploitation at its worst.