Does this make me racist?

[Marquess]

I apologize before hand if this isn't the right place to put this.

I was having a conversation with a friend from Italy on another forum and we got to talking about Italian-Americans. After a bit I said "I don't believe that most 4th and 5th generation Italian-Americans can truly call themselves "Italian". 9 times out of 10, they don't speak their own language and know almost nothing of their own culture ("Guido" is not an Italian culture) due to the generations becoming increasingly Americanized and assimilated. At this point, I think they're just "Americans" honestly."

Now tbh, I hold that thought with all ethnic groups. I don't believe someone can truly call themselves (For example) Irish unless they actually know more about their culture than St. Patricks Day and Guinness and have at least maybe some knowledge of Gaelic.

He then said "That sounds kind of racist honestly. Sure, I believe they shouldn't go around asserting their identity if they know nothing about Italy outside of the Mafia and pizza, but I wouldn't say that means they're not true Italians"

I haven't responded yet, but I still stick to my views. I'm not saying this doesn't make them "true Italians" per se, but that that would just make them more "American of Italian descent" as opposed to "Italian-American" (If that makes sense.

Now I don't blame them for this, I blame Americanization and assimilation/the Melting Pot theory. I honestly believe it's sad that if you were to walk into a Little Italy, Polishtown, Germantown or (Maybe to a lesser extent) Chinatown, you wouldn't hear any Italian, Polish, German or Chinese except maybe from a few 80 year olds. I think it's wrong to take away a peoples language and culture just because they're not in their own countries anymore. I'm not saying the only way to be _________-American is to be a giant stereotype, but I do believe that you can't assert that you're Polish-American if all you know about Poland is that they got invaded in WWII and that you like Kielbasa.

I don't say any of this to be offensive, it's just what I honestly think. It's like my favorite quote goes "A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots." I believe that multiculturalism, not assimilation, is what made this country what it is and that people shouldn't be robbed of the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture for the sake of "fitting in more".

So, does this make me racist?

[Registered User]

Not really

[Ostrinski]

If you have to ask..

But after reading it no

[Deicide]

I hereby declare you: Guilty!

[Book O'Dead]

I apologize before hand if this isn't the right place to put this.

I was having a conversation with a friend from Italy on another forum and we got to talking about Italian-Americans. After a bit I said "I don't believe that most 4th and 5th generation Italian-Americans can truly call themselves "Italian". 9 times out of 10, they don't speak their own language and know almost nothing of their own culture ("Guido" is not an Italian culture) due to the generations becoming increasingly Americanized and assimilated. At this point, I think they're just "Americans" honestly."

"American", that is, United Stater, is a political category, not a racial or ethnic one.
On the other hand, "Italian" is at once a political (since at least the late 19th Century, when Italy became a republic) and an ethnic category since Italians are for the most part Latin people.

So it possible to be an "Italian-American", that is, a person of Italian descent, as well as a citizen of the United States.

[Prometeo liberado]

Kielbasa is gooood.

[Guy Incognito]

There are a lot of Americans that do know their heritage. I know a good deal about my German and Irish sides, and celebrate both cultures, and even though I don't know everything, that doesn't mean I don't know where I'm from. And frankly I think it's a very American thing to do when we celebrate one another's culture, and wish others would do the same (and actually learn more). It breeds brotherhood and community. It's very inclusive to do so. I celebrate Bastille day even though I'm only a very small amount of french canadian (mostly because of what it represented) and Cinco de mayo (victory against an oppressor) just the same. We should encourage others to do the same. I don't think it cheapens a culture to share it with others.

Over all, it doesn't make you racist, but you shouldn't be talking shit about people's ethnicity just because they're not right off the boat.

[marl]

Absolutely. Don't get butthut over people not acting the way they're supposed to, I'm pretty sure that'd be fascism.

[The Machine]

I didn't actually read the OP, but just from your title, yes.

[Luís Henrique]

9 times out of 10, they don't speak their own language and know almost nothing of their own culture

As far as I can tell, their own language is English, and their own culture is American culture.


Now tbh, I hold that thought with all ethnic groups. I don't believe someone can truly call themselves (For example) Irish unless they actually know more about their culture than St. Patricks Day and Guinness and have at least maybe some knowledge of Gaelic.Frankly, I don't think one should call themselves Irish unless they have an Irish passport.


He then said "That sounds kind of racist honestly.Interesting. So someone who believes that Italianity or Irishness is passed along by blood alone isn't a racist, but someone that states the obvious fact that someone who isn't Italian isn't... Italian... is a racist?


I wouldn't say that means they're not true ItaliansMy grandfather was an Italian. Once. He ceased to be when he renounced his nationality to become a naturalised Brazilian. And of course, I am not a true Italian. Not even a false Italian, tbh.


Now I don't blame them for this, I blame Americanization and assimilation/the Melting Pot theory.What is to blame here? They aren't Italians. They are Americans. What is the problem?


I think it's wrong to take away a peoples language and culture just because they're not in their own countries anymore.When you live in a place where most people speak English, you end up learning English. If you live there long enough, English ends being more comfortable than your former language. If you have kids, they will speak your former language with you, and English with their friends. If they have kids, their kids will learn only English, and your former language only if they have school courses on it.


all you know about Poland is that they got invaded in WWII and that you like Kielbasa.I don't get this either. Why should anyone have similar tastes to their ancestors?


"A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots."I am not a tree. I have no roots. Knowledge is always good, but I don't see why I should have more knowledge about Azores or Calabria than I have about Hokkaido or Cyrenaica. Or, for that matter, about Rio de Janeiro or Porto Alegre.

The history of Azores is not "my" past history. The culture of Calabria is not "my" past culture. They are the history and culture of my ancestors - different people, with different ideas, different tastes, who lived in different places and different times.


I believe that multiculturalism, not assimilation, is what made this country what it isMy country was made by assimilation - anthropophagy, as Oswald de Andrade remarkably put it - not by multiculturalism.


and that people shouldn't be robbed of the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture for the sake of "fitting in more".I don't think people should be robbed from their present for the sake of a mostly imaginary past (a past, by the way, that their ancestors had the good sence of leaving behind, because, to be honest, it sucked - royally).


So, does this make me racist?No, certainly not for that. What a ridiculous idea.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

"American", that is, United Stater, is a political category, not a racial or ethnic one.

Why not?

An ethnicity is a group of people who share a common (real or imaginary) past, a common culture, and a common view of future. Seems to me the case of Americans.


On the other hand, "Italian" is at once a political (since at least the late 19th Century, when Italy became a republic) and an ethnic category since Italians are for the most part Latin people.Frenchmen are also for the most part Latin people... but they certainly don't make one ethnicity together with Italians.

And Italy only became a Republic post WWII; it was a monarchy before that. What you are referring to is Italian unification, which was in the 1860s. Before that "Italy" was little more than a project on the minds of a few bourgeois revolutionaries. It didn't even have a common language (the imposition of Italian as a national language only came by "robbing" people of their original Venetian, Lombardian, Calabrian, Sicilian, Sardinian, etc., language).


So it possible to be an "Italian-American", that is, a person of Italian descent, as well as a citizen of the United States.It is mostly a fantasy. Being of Italian descent doesn't make you an "ethnic" Italian.

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

idk, a lot of the ultra assertion of white people and a century old identity root is pretty stupid. unless your family has a continuity of celebrating/and or of engaging in ethnic rituals, its kinda stupid to make a deal out of it.

[lombas]

People are what they want to be, people identify themselves with what they want to identify with, and you're just supposed to accept that.

One might be proud of being an Italian-American with Jewish roots, someone else couldn't care less if his great-great-grandmother was a Bantu princess that fell in love with an Indian Maharaja and moved to Sioux-country.

Pointing out the absurdity of someone's "ethnical" (I prefer: identity) claims isn't wrong when you're right. Lots of people fantasize or romanticise just to be different or to brag.

[roy]

To be honest it seems like a silly debate. No they're not technically Italian but who cares? Nationality... meh.

[Luís Henrique]

double post, sorry.

[Luís Henrique]

Pointing out the absurdity of someone's "ethnical" (I prefer: identity) claims isn't wrong when you're right. Lots of people fantasize or romanticise just to be different or to brag.

More often they just get their past wrong.

"Italian Brazilians" or "Italian Americans" are typical. Their ancestors quite probably didn't even knew of any "Italian identity" and did not speak the Italian language. There must be lots of people priding in "going back to their roots" by learning Italian, while their actual "roots" lie on people who never spoke it, or even on people who felt the imposition of the language as an outright aggression to their traditional way of life.

I once read some news article about a young lady who converted to Judaism, because she learnt somewhere that "Fonseca is a Jewish surname" (when she learnt that, she allegedly burst into tears, for she had found her "identity"...) But Fonseca is a quite common Portuguese and Spanish surname; there were Jewish families that used it, yes (Isaac Aboab da Fonseca, for instance), but many more gentile people are Fonsecas (such as an archbishop who chaired the Spanish Inquisition around the 15th-16th century).

Except for a few bourgeois families that can follow their birth certificates to the 18th century, and even rarer noble families who can to it to the 14th or 13th century, most of us simply don't know - especially in the Americas, who were populated by the poorest layers of European society, plus unrooted Africans and Amerindians who never had written records, or had their records systematically destroyed by the conquistadors.

Luís Henrique

[dodger]

Whether looking into the face of a "mummy" or digging up some juicy bit of family gossip about long dead relatives, it is fascinating. Imagination runs riot..that's all it is. That fine CHARLESTON lady who asked me to check boat passenger lists, pre internet, no name could be found. I did not have the heart to say indentured would not have their individual names in records. 10 chickens+ 25 indentured, more like it. Still she had a very posh English name.Is this an academic exercise? Find the victim? Preferably a permanent victim! My family were cattle thieves, raiders an utterly respectable profession for an Englishman to take up on the Scottish Borders. Middlemarch. Along with "Wrecking" enough to purchase a coat of arms and the thanks of neighbours and grateful King. Primitive Accumulation. What all this has to do with being brought up on a sink estate in South London I cannot imagine!!

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Except for a few bourgeois families that can follow their birth certificates to the 18th century, and even rarer noble families who can to it to the 14th or 13th century, most of us simply don't know - especially in the Americas
Genealogical research can be instructive.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

that would just make them more "American of Italian descent" as opposed to "Italian-American" (If that makes sense.)
No, it doesn't make any sense, because "Italian-American" is generally used to mean "American of Italian descent."

[lombas]

More often they just get their past wrong.

"Italian Brazilians" or "Italian Americans" are typical. Their ancestors quite probably didn't even knew of any "Italian identity" and did not speak the Italian language. There must be lots of people priding in "going back to their roots" by learning Italian, while their actual "roots" lie on people who never spoke it, or even on people who felt the imposition of the language as an outright aggression to their traditional way of life.

I once read some news article about a young lady who converted to Judaism, because she learnt somewhere that "Fonseca is a Jewish surname" (when she learnt that, she allegedly burst into tears, for she had found her "identity"...) But Fonseca is a quite common Portuguese and Spanish surname; there were Jewish families that used it, yes (Isaac Aboab da Fonseca, for instance), but many more gentile people are Fonsecas (such as an archbishop who chaired the Spanish Inquisition around the 15th-16th century).

Except for a few bourgeois families that can follow their birth certificates to the 18th century, and even rarer noble families who can to it to the 14th or 13th century, most of us simply don't know - especially in the Americas, who were populated by the poorest layers of European society, plus unrooted Africans and Amerindians who never had written records, or had their records systematically destroyed by the conquistadors.

Luís Henrique

I don't know about non-Catholic (non-European) regions but I thought for any Western-European born in a Catholic country it shouldn't be too difficult to trace your heritage to the seventeenth century as the Council of Trent obliged everyone to be included in the baptist registries.

They provide a unique source for all genealogists.

[OnlyCommunistYouKnow]

I hate it when people call other ethnicities by the region they came from. Example: African American. If they were born in the United States, then they are just American. How would you even know if they were from Africa in the first place?
On a side note, why aren't Americans called British Americans? Only makes sense.

[Book O'Dead]

Why not?

An ethnicity is a group of people who share a common (real or imaginary) past, a common culture, and a common view of future. Seems to me the case of Americans.

In the U.S., citizenship requirements are based on political, not ethnic, criteria. Also, the term "American" is misused, since all people who live or have been born between Tierra del Fuego and the Canadian Arctic are considered to be American.


Frenchmen are also for the most part Latin people... but they certainly don't make one ethnicity together with Italians.

True. In fact, according to Robert Hughes' book "Rome" even Benito Mussolini scoffed at the Germano-Fascist notion of racial purity by declaring that there had never existed a racially pure Rome; That ancient Rome and all of Italy had been made up of a broad variety of ethnicities.

When I speak of ethnicity I refer to the modern sense of the term, that designate culturally distinct groups in the United States, groups that retain many customs of their countries of origin.


And Italy only became a Republic post WWII; it was a monarchy before that. What you are referring to is Italian unification, which was in the 1860s. Before that "Italy" was little more than a project on the minds of a few bourgeois revolutionaries. It didn't even have a common language (the imposition of Italian as a national language only came by "robbing" people of their original Venetian, Lombardian, Calabrian, Sicilian, Sardinian, etc., language).

You're correct. I was in fact referring to its unification and transformation into constitutional monarchy under Victor Emanuel 2.


It is mostly a fantasy. Being of Italian descent doesn't make you an "ethnic" Italian.

Well, as someone who has lived in Italy for almost a year and in New York City almost all of my life, in close proximity to United Staters of Italian descent, I can tell you that it's a powerful "fantasy". In fact it's a "fantasy" I would prefer to preserve since I find the Italian people on both sides of the Atlantic to be extremely charming and attractive.

[black magick hustla]

lol new york/new jersey italian americans are really fuckin racist

[Book O'Dead]

lol new york/new jersey italian americans are really fuckin racist

I'm sure some are. But to generalize negatively about them or any other group is bigoted, to say the least.

[lombas]

How would you even know if they were from Africa in the first place?


The history of the Black Chinese is indeed often neglected in historiography.

[Luís Henrique]

How would you even know if they were from Africa in the first place?

There's that story of an American journalist interviewing Frank Bruno.

He referred to Bruno as African American, to which Bruno replied that, first, he was not American, but British; and second, that his "roots" were in Jamaica, not in Africa.

The poor journalist however was so ingrained with the ideology that you absolutely must refer to anyone with Bruno's phenotype as "African American", that he repeated the politically correct shibboleth over and over, to the irritation of Bruno.

... and irritating Frank Bruno probably isn't a good idea, unless you are Mike Tyson.

Another good one is in Wikipedia, that has an article about "Afro-Brazilians". But the sources it uses never use the expression "afro-brasileiro"; instead, they always use the usual (and politically correct in Brazil) "negro".

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

In the U.S., citizenship requirements are based on political, not ethnic, criteria.

I don't think so. Or aren't the children of American citizens automatically American, regardless of any political issues?

It is of course a recent ethnicity, and not quite well consolidated, for many Americans believe "ethnicity" is synonimous with "ancestry", and some even cultuate an ad hoc pseudo-ethnic "identity".


Also, the term "American" is misused, since all people who live or have been born between Tierra del Fuego and the Canadian Arctic are considered to be American.

Indeed, but what can we do?

(I remember a heathed discussion between a group of Mexicans and a few Canadians and Brazilians: the Mexicans insisted that "we" - meaning Mexicans, Canadians, and Brazilian altogether - were the "true" Americans, while the so-called Americans were just stealing the name. The Canadians and Brazilians on the other hand argued that they were no Americans by absolutely no means, and were somewhat offended by the idea...)


When I speak of ethnicity I refer to the modern sense of the term, that designate culturally distinct groups in the United States, groups that retain many customs of their countries of origin.

I don't think this is the "modern" sence of the term, just that it is an American "popular" (as opposed to academic) sence.


Well, as someone who has lived in Italy for almost a year and in New York City almost all of my life, in close proximity to United Staters of Italian descent, I can tell you that it's a powerful "fantasy". In fact it's a "fantasy" I would prefer to preserve since I find the Italian people on both sides of the Atlantic to be extremely charming and attractive.

Well, but you are not afflicted by the condition, which I am.

Luís Henrique

[black magick hustla]

I'm sure some are. But to generalize negatively about them or any other group is bigoted, to say the least.

i won't lose any sleep

[bricolage]

He referred to Bruno as African American, to which Bruno replied that, first, he was not American, but British; and second, that his "roots" were in Jamaica, not in Africa.
'person of colour' is another one. call a black person from the uk either that or 'african american' and you'll probably be met with, at best, annoynace and, at worst, a slap.

[Luís Henrique]

'person of colour' is another one. call a black person from the uk either that or 'african american' and you'll probably be met with, at best, annoynace and, at worst, a slap.

Since I am quoting sportsmen, this one had a good retort from Pelé. When some journalist refered to someone else as a "person of colour", he asked back, "yes, but which colour"?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Indeed, but what can we do?

One option, of course, would be to mimick Tom Nairn's "Ukania" and call the USA "Usania" and its citizens "Usanians".

Luís Henrique

[gorillafuck]

uh, it doesn't sound racist but it's kind of dumb to think that there's certain requirements to be "true [nationality]"

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

"people of colour" is a designation prefered by a lot of people and i dont see the problem. it's certainly better than "minority" when discussing race relations.

i will be the first to admit that i dont know much about sociology and ethnology. but if folks, despite having been assimilated into american or brazilian or whatever society, identify with each other through a common ancestral heritage, does that not make them an ethnic group?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

On a side note, why aren't Americans called British Americans? Only makes sense.
How does it make sense?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It is of course a recent ethnicity, and not quite well consolidated, for many Americans believe "ethnicity" is synonimous with "ancestry", and some even cultuate an ad hoc pseudo-ethnic "identity".
I think Americans can have a sense of inferiority about their ethnicity simply because it is a recent construct, and this may lead them to identifying more with an ancestral ethnicity.

[Zav]

No, it doesn't make you racist at all. I agree with you; culture defines identity. I would also assert that birthplace is irrelevant in the matter.

[Luís Henrique]

I think Americans can have a sense of inferiority about their ethnicity simply because it is a recent construct, and this may lead them to identifying more with an ancestral ethnicity.

Possibly, though it doesn't seem the case with other "recent ethnicities" such as Argentinians, Mexicans, or Brazilians.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

i will be the first to admit that i dont know much about sociology and ethnology. but if folks, despite having been assimilated into american or brazilian or whatever society, identify with each other through a common ancestral heritage, does that not make them an ethnic group?

Well, no. It just makes them dissociated.

What would such identification consist in? Hyphenated Americans, of course, observe varied festivals that account for their pseudo-ethnicity (Saint Patrick's day, Columbus Day (:rolleyes:), etc.) But how do they exactly "identify through a common heritage"? Do "Italian Americans" prefer the tarantella to rock and roll?

Culture is a much more complicated thing than mere genealogy, and yes, I would deny the existence of an Italian American culture.

Luís Henrique

[The Young Pioneer]

What an interesting topic...Fwiw, I don't think you're being racist since you're willing to discuss it with your friend and with us, asking questions and being open minded...

That said, I think many Americans have a kind of identity crisis when it comes to their ethnicity. When not otherwise preoccupied with nationalist pride for good ol' USA, they're claiming they're Irish or Italian or German, etc. etc. I don't condone that of course, as it's all honestly reactionary...

This is hard to answer because I don't even know what I'd call myself. Part of my family can be traced back to the Mayflower crossing from England, part is Russian Jewish fleeing the empire under the last Tsar, part are Hungarian immigrants, and some others are Irish.

So, what? If these people who claim to be Italian were in my place, would they say they're Mayflower Jews from Russia who immigrated from Hungary and Ireland? :rolleyes:

We're all just mutts. If you have a thing against mutts, then yes, you're racist. Otherwise it's fine. ;)

[pastradamus]

Its fine to accuse someone of racism when what they say or do is a racist act/remark.

But that guy who called you a racist is clearly an idiot.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Well, no. It just makes them dissociated.

What would such identification consist in? Hyphenated Americans, of course, observe varied festivals that account for their pseudo-ethnicity (Saint Patrick's day, Columbus Day (:rolleyes:), etc.) But how do they exactly "identify through a common heritage"? Do "Italian Americans" prefer the tarantella to rock and roll?

Culture is a much more complicated thing than mere genealogy, and yes, I would deny the existence of an Italian American culture.

Luís Henrique

i wasnt talking about italians, but i do think they apply.
a shared dialect or "accent", italian last names, certain neighborhoods. maybe they even frequent certain businesses like "ethnic" grocery stores, read community newspapers, clubs, et al. i realize that this hardly constitutes a "culture", but theyre factors of mutual identification. which coincidentally are similar to the things that define the "italian" community here in sp. while i despise the ostensibly and conspicuously italian often racist bourgie shitbags that make up this arguable ethnic group, not to mention the supremely odious s.e. palmeiras, they do identify each other as members of a kind of community. no ofense to you and your kin. i too have italian great grandparents and have to deal with the "oh youre italian, me too! che belo! adoniran barbosa! lets have some pizza and talk about those dirty darky immigrants from the north". ugh. classe média sofre.

afterall, where do we draw the line? for example, asian and hispanic immigrant communities in the united states where foreign languages and customs are still practiced and so on... are they ethnic groups?

[Rooster]

Most Italians don't even consider themselves Italians. Italy is very... regional.

[Luís Henrique]

they do identify each other as members of a kind of community. no ofense to you and your kin. i too have italian great grandparents and have to deal with the "oh youre italian, me too! che belo! adoniran barbosa! lets have some pizza and talk about those dirty darky immigrants from the north". ugh. classe média sofre.

People do this to you?

I have never had anyone telling me that because I have Italian ancestors I have, or should have, something in common with them. Never heard anyone saying "che bello" either. And Adoniran Barbosa composed sambas, darnit.


afterall, where do we draw the line? for example, asian and hispanic immigrant communities in the united states where foreign languages and customs are still practiced and so on... are they ethnic groups?

Dying ethnic groups, perhaps, to the extent they still speak a different language, worship different gods, eat different stuff, etc. It is particulary difficult to do this in a country like Brazil, where your "ethnic" peculiarities are under permanent risk of becoming mainstream.


not to mention the supremely odious s.e. palmeiras,

Well, let's keep the conversation civil. There is no need to invoke absolute metaphysical evil!

(Though Ademir da Guia would have been one of the finest soccer players ever, if he just did have the sence not to wear those ridiculous green rags for starters.) [/soccer fanatism]

Luís Henrique

[rednordman]

The thing is that wasn't the whole notion of being something-american actually devised by white Americans to demonstrate how they where 'purer' than the _____-americans? Wasn't this the whole reason in the first place for those actual american born people being labeled as the nationality of their immigrant parents?

Surely people who are identifying with there descent are really just protesting the extreme white nationalism of the darker corners of the nations past?

In fact, isn't it in a way a rebellion against the vulgar Americanization that allot of ethics had to by themselves into to be considered a part of American society? *think Ford*

I think that looking at the whole scale of history than yes, what you are saying is rather ignorant. BUT in the modern age, you do have a point (even though I think your argument is flawed and VERY harsh). If people want to identify as something than let them do it. What would you prefer then? Even more die hard American nationalists?:unsure:

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This is hard to answer because I don't even know what I'd call myself. Part of my family can be traced back to the Mayflower crossing from England, part is Russian Jewish fleeing the empire under the last Tsar, part are Hungarian immigrants, and some others are Irish.
Sounds like my family. My earliest immigrant ancestor arrived in the Virginia Colony in 1622 from England, my most recent were a Ukrainian Jew arriving in 1903 in New York and a Polish Jew arriving in 1912, also in New York. Inbetween were immigrants from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Finland, and more from England.

[Cirno(9)]

I'd say the idea of there being some kind of 'true (ethnicity)" is closer to usual racist ideology...

[Marcus Clayman]

race, culture and ethnicity are all different issues... if someone identifies ethnically a certain way, it doesn't have to pass some sort of inspection or calculation about how much influence they have had from one culture or another... simply having a lot of admiration for an ethnic group, and being subject or raised by that group, will give you something of an affinity with that group... segregation and economic class and local culture, probably have more to do with how many generations it takes to "assimilate" to so called "american" culture... that is why ethnic identification is seperated from other forms of defining race... ethnicity is subjective and self defined... race is biological and not geographical... culture may be, but is not limited to geography... and nationality is something different altogether... how these things all add up and menifest in any one individual is complicated, but there are correlations, but mixing any of them, saying that to be an american for example, you have to have been here for so many generations, and that once you leave, your childrens childrens children, will eventually no longer be american, unless they too live in america for some period of time in their lives... it's all really arbitrary to mix these things up, although some interesting statistics can be found by studying different demographics, applying any top down definition onto a group of people is inherantly oppressive... but the individual cannot be blamed for being raised in a culture that encourages these oppressions, we can all learn though, through dialogue and interaction with those who we may percieve as from different cultures... we are all the same, economic classes have more similarities, across culture and ethnic identity, than people from any same race.

[coda]

some interesting stuff here...some not so..

the world is full of gray areas... some people born in the US who have parent or spouse born in another 'country', have dual citizenship to both countries, among some other routes --- naturalization, acquired via colonization.

The US is the bastardized offspring of "everywhere". As much as they like to impose a sense of culture identity and indoctrination of 'baseball, hotdogs, apple pie and Chevrolet" (and only then during the World Series, Super Bowl and 4th of July) those things, like everything else they lay claim, are either adopted, borrowed or stolen from some place else ---foremost the language, not to mention the land. Besides the shopping mall mentality and assembly line ethic the US is scant on cultural contributions (and none that you'd want to write home to the 'motherland' about).

[rednordman]

I'd say the idea of there being some kind of 'true (ethnicity)" is closer to usual racist ideology...On the same note, being forced to conform to your official nationality or passport, and have no pride or respect for second/half nationality could equally be construed as xenophobic/fascist also.

The thing that surprises me is how a lot of the anti-nationalists seen to have missed out the fact that anyone embracing there other nationalities or ethnicity are at the same time digging hard away at and diluting nationalism and national purity?

[Firebrand]

When my mum was younger she went to America with her family. While she was there she and her sister met some Americans, who said they were Irish. My mum then said "hey we're half Irish our mums from Dublin, where are you from." The Americans then said "Where's Dublin". True story.

I think once you get to third gen you can't really be considered as coming from anywhere except the place you were born. From personal experience, you just end up looking silly if you try and claim the culture your grandparents ran away from as your own.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

When my mum was younger she went to America with her family. While she was there she and her sister met some Americans, who said they were Irish. My mum then said "hey we're half Irish our mums from Dublin, where are you from." The Americans then said "Where's Dublin". True story.
In my experience, Americans with a true love and respect for the culture of their immigrant ancestors aren't the ones who don't know where Dublin (or whatever other city) is.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

People do this to you?

I have never had anyone telling me that because I have Italian ancestors I have, or should have, something in common with them. Never heard anyone saying "che bello" either. And Adoniran Barbosa composed sambas, darnit.

maybe it's a são paulo thing

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Racist is someone who discriminates others by their race, I don't consider Italian to be a race so you are not a racists by saying that.

Case closed.

[Klaatu]

A suggestion: Watch the multi-part series "Finding Your Roots" on PBS. (Sundays, 8PM Eastern time)
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/finding-your-roots/

[isaacston]

You weren't being racist purposely, but it is best to listen to POC when they're talking about their culture.

[bricolage]

You weren't being racist purposely, but it is best to listen to POC when they're talking about their culture.
italians and irish are 'poc'?

[black magick hustla]

i don't care about white peoples cultural sensibilities fuck y'all

[black magick hustla]

the wolrd is a nicer place every time a french intellectual drops dead or a gutter punk with dreads chokes in his own vomit

[Book O'Dead]

the wolrd is a nicer place every time a french intellectual drops dead or a gutter punk with dreads chokes in his own vomit

You should pull the nihilist butt plug out of your arrogant ass.

[El Oso Rojo]

lol new york/new jersey italian americans are really fuckin racist

So are the Saint Louis ones.

[RedSonRising]

I think it's a valid point, and it's one that personally irks me as well. As a child of immigrant parents, negotiating identity and being comfortable with living between two spheres of cultural identity can be mentally taxing and a difficult task. For descendents to claim a cultural label that simply does not apply (and often times abuse it) is disingenuous. I think it also contributes to associating historical immigrant groups now considered white (Irish, Italians) with minorities of color, and equating their social positions, when they are included as an ethnic group in itself within the United States, which is obviously absurd.