Chinese Capitalism

[seventeethdecember2016]

This video details the Massive Production in China, and how the upper classes spend their money. I think they were a bit bias on the money part, but other parts were good.
_ZgUyjzPSh8

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Very interesting video comrade. China is though also falling behind now as well. The Means of Production sector has been relying on the Consumption sector surplus for investion, but now yeasterday, AlJazeera reported Steel production and basically the consumption sector has been is falling, which is absolute bad news. IMF head Christine Lagard says China needs to stop being so dependent on (exports) and investment. The last part is curucial, they are seeing what i am seeing, a big investment problem. But the Chinese look to be "deepen reforms on taxes, the financial sector, prices, income distribution and seek breakthroughs in key areas to let market forces play a bigger role in resource allocation", which is an absolute failure, let the market play a bigger role? It might work for a short time, but ultimately market liberalisation will lead China to the problem the USA is having now, financial dominance would become a necessity to secure trade. It is though positive that it seems that they want to "spread wealth" this means be more self-reliant through raising wages, but can really pose a problem when profits are failing. There is a problem coming to capitalist production, it is hitting a crux and i think the left-wing in the CCP knows this. "China has reached a crucial period in changing its economic model and (change) cannot be delayed. Reforms have entered a tough stage," Li

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

@12:05 Oh, LOL, what a stupid capitalist pig! Gone "Backwards"? Actually State ownership is a reaction to private capitalist organisations treating their employees like 19th century style proletarians and the market not providing stable loans since the last four years especially. Fucking kulaks, i hope China has a revolution to install real workers control socialism and run stupid "CEO" *****es like this out of the country, go to USA where everything is private and everything is going *forwards* to the abyss of capitalism's decay.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I absolutely agree with you, just on this point below I disagree.

IMF head Christine Lagard says China needs to stop being so dependent on (exports) and investment.

I was watching CCTV recently, and a Finance Minister was addressing this issue. He said that China currently exports 11% of what the world exports, but it is 19% of the world population. He also said Germany has about the same export percentage as China, but its population is 83 million.



@12:05 Oh, LOL, what a stupid capitalist pig! Gone "Backwards"? Actually State ownership is a reaction to private capitalist organisations treating their employees like 19th century style proletarians and the market not providing stable loans since the last four years especially. Fucking kulaks, i hope China has a revolution to install real workers control socialism and run stupid "CEO" *****es like this out of the country, go to USA where everything is private and everything is going *forwards* to the abyss of capitalism's decay.

I too was a little angered when I heard that women say that. But she is just a Capitalist, and she is only looking for her own benefits and not of the workers of the country. This video is pretty Liberal, so they'll portray her comments as if their representative of the Chinese population.
She is just a naive individual who doesn't understand how complex the Chinese system really is.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Yes. But about the exports: Germany exports mainly Means of Production goods while China exports mainly consumer goods. Normally consumer goods are not as high as means of production exports, but still, China caught up and actually raced to #1 exporter of the world, so compared also to their productive forces (which is difficult to compare because they are mainly two different kinds of sectors with Germany's being of course more complex and high risk really[this is why Germany has always been arguably th emost progressive nation in capitalism and since industrialisation, its focus on machinery]) could be compared generally lower than germany's where China has immense open sky to grow their productive forces in the consumer production sector. So generally speaking, if the left-wing does not win in the CCP and get rid of every single trace of the market and try to reach a socialist economy (which they are not, it would be difficult in their situation since they are so dependent on foreign capital), they will find it difficult to not fall into the same trap as the west has been in the last ~10 years: The boundaries of the market.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Yes. But about the exports: Germany exports mainly Means of Production goods while China exports mainly consumer goods. Normally consumer goods are not as high as means of production exports, but still, China caught up and actually raced to #1 exporter of the world, so compared also to their productive forces (which is difficult to compare because they are mainly two different kinds of sectors with Germany's being of course more complex and high risk really[this is why Germany has always been arguably th emost progressive nation in capitalism and since industrialisation, its focus on machinery]) could be compared generally lower than germany's where China has immense open sky to grow their productive forces in the consumer production sector. So generally speaking, if the left-wing does not win in the CCP and get rid of every single trace of the market and try to reach a socialist economy (which they are not, it would be difficult in their situation since they are so dependent on foreign capital), they will find it difficult to not fall into the same trap as the west has been in the last ~10 years: The boundaries of the market.
Yes, and the left wing of the party seems to be going through a purge at the moment. :(
China's path to development is still better than any other options I suppose.
China's economy may stagnate in a few decades, I'll admit that.

[Hit The North]

China's path to development is still better than any other options I suppose.


Why is no democracy, shitty human rights and a widening gap between rich and poor any better than other "paths to development"?

[black magick hustla]

Defend the deformed workers state, for workers political revolution agains

[seventeethdecember2016]

Why is no democracy, shitty human rights and a widening gap between rich and poor any better than other "paths to development"?
The Chinese are at the point of no return. To obtain what you want would cause 10-20 years of instability, and it would be very likely that they'd just fall back into an Authoritarian regime again.

The path to development is much more efficient.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The Chinese are at the point of no return. To obtain what you want would cause 10-20 years of instability, and it would be very likely that they'd just fall back into an Authoritarian regime again.

The path to development is much more efficient.

Yes i agree, no that they have the market "socialism" hmhmhm... they should at least try to gain as much surplus for further growth, or rather increase in the productive forces, which does seem to be in the thoughts of some party members. The "widening" wealth gap is actually being reformed right now, the minimum wage in the southern province ~Shingzing~ (bloody hell, i cant remember the name!) is being raised by 20% so they are looking to become more self-sustaining. But have no worries, not too long will it take until China will be in the same 2% recession type situation if they do successfully make these reforms. Socialism is the next step in theory comrades.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I am going to say that within 20 to 40 years we are going to see socialism. The rate of profit in the USA is 2% and the only way to deal with it (at least in bourgeois economic theory) is to inflate prices, but not even the real interest rate is being lowered in comparison to the financial interest rate. This will cause huge problems, and if i'll predict further, seeing the current Obama EO's from March 16 "The National Defense Resource Protection Executive Order" it looks like the USA will have "State Monopolist Capitalism" made to work in the interest of Capital.

[Hit The North]

The Chinese are at the point of no return. To obtain what you want would cause 10-20 years of instability, and it would be very likely that they'd just fall back into an Authoritarian regime again.


Why would human rights and democracy produce instability? And if you believe this I guess it means you oppose any progressive forces within China that are seeking democracy and human rights, which just puts you on the side of the oppressors.


The path to development is much more efficient.
That's just a non sequitur. But even if it is more "efficient" (and not respecting human dignity will always be more economically efficient than its opposite) what exactly is being "developed" here?

[seventeethdecember2016]

Why would human rights and democracy produce instability? And if you believe this I guess it means you oppose any progressive forces within China that are seeking democracy and human rights, which just puts you on the side of the oppressors.
It seems that everything you say revolves around Democracy and/or Human Rights Violations. This is sad and all, but it is required of all massively developing countries. Seeing that China is also a country of 1.3 billion, the human rights violations are comparable to most other countries. The West is currently denying Muslims their right to privacy, since they are pretty much all treated as terrorists. In my country, the USA, Muslims are pretty much guilty until proven innocent. So get off China's back with your BBC/Liberal nonsense. This is nothing more than Physiological Warfare.

I also don't respect your constant assumptions against me, and you seem to be following a slippery slope.
It is true that I don't support a Bourgeois Western Phenomenon called Democracy(Pseudo-Democracy to be exact), where it essentially equates to getting a vote every 2 or so years. This somehow is Democratic, but I'll never know why.

China is already pretty much in the gutter, shall we make it worse with more Bourgeois degradation?
Anyway, the next few generations of CCP members are expected to bring back Socialism to China - progressively.

[Hit The North]

So get off China's back with your BBC/Liberal nonsense. This is nothing more than Physiological Warfare.


I'll quit the "BBC/Liberal nonsense" when you stop cheer leading for authoritarian state capitalist scum. Btw, wtf is "physiological warfare"?


It is true that I don't support a Bourgeois Western Phenomenon called Democracy(Pseudo-Democracy to be exact), where it essentially equates to getting a vote every 2 or so years. This somehow is Democratic, but I'll never know why.
Who's arguing for bourgeois democracy? As a Marxist I agree that the working class need to win the battle for democracy and that this demands their democratic control over the mean of production. You, on the other hand want to act as an apologist for undemocratic forces on the basis that it is a more efficient route to economic development (by which you presumably mean capitalist accumulation). This lines you up with the oppressors and makes you an enemy of the working class.


Anyway, the next few generations of CCP members are expected to bring back Socialism to China - progressively.This is a top-down, substitutionist and reformist position typical of state capitalist apologists. I don't need to make assumptions about you when you so clearly express your position.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I'll quit the "BBC/Liberal nonsense" when you stop cheer leading for authoritarian state capitalist scum.
Do you really think I support the Chinese state? Why would I post this if I support the Chinese state?



Who's arguing for bourgeois democracy? As a Marxist I agree that the working class need to win the battle for democracy and that this demands their democratic control over the mean of production. You, on the other hand want to act as an apologist for undemocratic forces on the basis that it is a more efficient route to economic development (by which you presumably mean capitalist accumulation). This lines you up with the oppressors and makes you an enemy of the working class.
I just wanted to define what Western Democracy-which is what I thought you support- is.
And no problem. Mao was very Democratic. All we need is a revision of his policies.



This is a top-down, substitutionist and reformist position typical of state capitalist apologists. I don't need to make assumptions about you when you so clearly express your position.
Your right, we should have the Chinese state destroyed and replaced with a Bourgeois Democratic State(sarcasm).
I am not going to watch one of the last Communist/Socialist-sympathizing countries disappear for the sake of a little mistreatment of the proletariat.

[Hit The North]

I am not going to watch one of the last Communist/Socialist-sympathizing countries disappear for the sake of a little mistreatment of the proletariat.

I can't even express how hilarious that statement is :lol:

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I can't even express how hilarious that statement is :lol:

I don't see how that is really hilarious. If you would have said that maybe 6 years ago, i would have agreed quite a bit, but now? China is raising the minimum wages by 14-20% for its workers, it is approaching to a highly advanced capitalist society fast. Rural unemployment is over 9%, the peasant class has basically been obliterated and it looks like the chinese government is actually looking to 'close the gap between city and land'. I have no illusions that socialism can succeed in a backward society, so seeing as the CCP is looking to raise taxes to provide for the basic needs of its exploited... workers are increasingly getting class conscious in China and Mao's thoughts are finding some hold in the working class. Of course no one here is saying that we would NOT want a revolution to happen now, but China has succeeded in averting imperialism and industrialising, which is essential for socialism, materially and socially. China will not be able to sustain the 7% growth they have set for the next five years, it is already seeing problems in various consumption sectors as the world capitalism is, now that this has happened, where will the investment into the MoP sector come from that has been dependent on the consumption sector? It won't, China is starting to not even sell rare earths out of its country without producing it there. China is on the way, the same way as the rest of the Capitalist world: On the Road to the fall of Capitalism as we know it. Socialism is the future.

[Hit The North]

I don't see how that is really hilarious.

The idea that a state that denies workers democracy and subjects workers to the discipline of capitalist accumulation is in any way sympathetic to the ideas of communism is patently absurd, isn't it? The notion that "the party" can "mistreat" the workers towards socialism is a disgusting rubric typical of Stalinist, Maoist and other variety of state capitalists.


China is raising the minimum wages by 14-20% for its workers, it is approaching to a highly advanced capitalist society fast. Rural unemployment is over 9%, the peasant class has basically been obliterated and it looks like the chinese government is actually looking to 'close the gap between city and land'. Yes the CCP is the historical agent of capitalist accumulation in China. So what? The logic of China's trajectory is not toward socialism but toward the completion of a capitalist revolution that will most likely see the dominance of private property relations, as it did in the former USSR and East Europe.

And even if this is not the case and history takes a turn towards a socialist China, it will not be because of the ruling elite, but because the Chinese working class has found a way of overthrowing that elite.


I have no illusions that socialism can succeed in a backward society, so seeing as the CCP is looking to raise taxes to provide for the basic needs of its exploited...
The raising of the minimum wage is to be welcomed, but just as its raising under New Labour in Britain did not put Britain a single step closer to socialism, it will fail to do so in China. The real reason China needs to raise wages is because its long-term economic well-being depends upon the creation of a thriving internal market. This all takes place within a capitalist paradigm and has absolutely nothing to do with the state's sympathy towards socialist or communist ideals. On the contrary, the fact that China has a minimum wage at all demonstrates how it is on a capitalist path.


China is on the way, the same way as the rest of the Capitalist world: On the Road to the fall of Capitalism as we know it. Socialism is the future.
Hallelujah to that, brother! But, as in the rest of the world, this will be against the interests of the ruling elite of China. That's why Havee3333333's assertion that the state should be supported in its "mistreatment" of the Chinese working class is so hilarious. It means he's backing the wrong side in the class struggle but doesn't understand that he is.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Hallelujah to that, brother! But, as in the rest of the world, this will be against the interests of the ruling elite of China. That's why Havee3333333's assertion that the state should be supported in its "mistreatment" of the Chinese working class is so hilarious. It means he's backing the wrong side in the class struggle but doesn't understand that he is.
I have made no such claims! There is a substantial difference between supporting a Developing country, and supporting a country that mistreats its workers. I am against the mistreatment of workers all around the world, but the fact that China is DEVELOPING means that they deserve some leniency in that respect.

China will never become Socialist unless it becomes Developed, and if it does it will watch millions die in famine again like it did with China's last attempt at giving the majority rule over the Communes.
This will likely be a short-lived famine, but a famine none-the-less.

How will China become Developed? The answer is stagism, and once China has achieved the productive forces required for Socialism, it will become Socialist.

[Hit The North]

I have made no such claims! There is a substantial difference between supporting a Developing country, and supporting a country that mistreats its workers. I am against the mistreatment of workers all around the world, but the fact that China is DEVELOPING means that they deserve some leniency in that respect.


So what is this "leniency" if not support for the State's treatment of the workers?


China will never become Socialist unless it becomes Developed, and if it does it will watch millions die in famine again like it did with China's last attempt at giving the majority rule over the Communes.
This will likely be a short-lived famine, but a famine none-the-less.


This is bizarre conjecture which doesn't even make sense to me.


How will China become Developed? The answer is stagism, and once China has achieved the productive forces required for Socialism, it will become Socialist.

So we can add stagism to your substitutionism and reformism!

But if your stage theory is correct, when will the USA or Europe become socialist, given that their stage of economic development currently exceeds China's? When will we know China has reached this stage? And what should China's workers do until this stage is reached? Do you think that China could even reach this stage if it didn't continue to "mistreat" its working class?

[seventeethdecember2016]

So what is this "leniency" if not support for the State's treatment of the workers?

This isn't support as much as letting the Chinese have sovereignty over how they manage their state.




This is bizarre conjecture which doesn't even make sense to me.

You might need to use some deep thinking if that's your dilemma.



So we can add stagism to your substitutionism and reformism!

But if your stage theory is correct, when will the USA or Europe become socialist, given that their stage of economic development currently exceeds China's? When will we know China has reached this stage? And what should China's workers do until this stage is reached? Do you think that China could even reach this stage if it didn't continue to "mistreat" its working class?
Well, the USA and Europe will have their own way to go about this. They seem to be stagnating, so they'll have to reform their systems soon.
The answers to your questions depends on the future conditions of China. I cannot simply answer these now because they would be wrong.

There are some places in China were there is no 'mistreatment,' but we often pay more attention to cases where there is. Please stop paying attention to a FEW people who are mistreated, often by their employer, and look at the bigger picture.

Chinese Constitution(1982):
Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants. The socialist system is the basic system of the People's Republic of China. Sabotage of the socialist system by any organization or individual is prohibited.
Article 2. All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people. The organs through which the people exercise state power are the National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at different levels. The people administer state affairs and manage economic, cultural and social affairs through various channels and in various ways in accordance with the law.
Article 3. The state organs of the People's Republic of China apply the principle of democratic centralism. The National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at different levels are instituted through democratic election. They are responsible to the people and subject to their supervision. All administrative, judicial and procuratorial organs of the state are created by the people's congresses to which they are responsible and under whose supervision they operate. The division of functions and powers between the central and local state organs is guided by the principle of giving full play to the initiative and enthusiasm of the local authorities under the unified leadership of the central authorities.
Article 6. The basis of the socialist economic system of the People's Republic of China is socialist public ownership of the means of production, namely, ownership by the whole people and collective ownership by the working people. The system of socialist public ownership supersedes the system of exploitation of man by man; it applies the principle of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his work.
Article 7. The state economy is the sector of socialist economy under ownership by the whole people; it is the leading force in the national economy. The state ensures the consolidation and growth of the state economy.
Article 14. The state continuously raises labour productivity, improves economic results and develops the productive forces by enhancing the enthusiasm of the working people, raising the level of their technical skill, disseminating advanced science and technology, improving the systems of economic administration and enterprise operation and management, instituting the socialist system of responsibility in various forms and improving organization of work. The state practises strict economy and combats waste. The state properly apportions accumulation and consumption, pays attention to the interests of the collective and the individual as well as of the state and, on the basis of expanded production, gradually improves the material and cultural life of the people.
Article 15. The state practises economic planning on the basis of socialist public ownership. It ensures the proportionate and co-ordinated growth of the national economy through overall balancing by economic planning and the supplementary role of regulation by the market. Disturbance of the orderly functioning of the social economy or disruption of the state economic plan by any organization or individual is prohibited.
Article 19. The state develops socialist educational undertakings and works to raise the scientific and cultural level of the whole nation. The state runs schools of various types, makes primary education compulsory and universal, develops secondary, vocational and higher education and promotes pre-school education. The state develops educational facilities of various types in order to wipe out illiteracy and provide political, cultural, scientific, technical and professional education for workers, peasants, state functionaries and other working people. It encourages people to become educated through self- study. The state encourages the collective economic organizations, state enterprises and undertakings and other social forces to set up educational institutions of various types in accordance with the law. The state promotes the nationwide use of Putonghua (common speech based on Beijing pronunciation).
Article 20. The state promotes the development of the natural and social sciences, disseminates scientific and technical knowledge, and commends and rewards achievements in scientific research as well as technological discoveries and inventions.
Article 21. The state develops medical and health services, promotes modern medicine and traditional Chinese medicine, encourages and supports the setting up of various medical and health facilities by the rural economic collectives, state enterprises and undertakings and neighbourhood organizations, and promotes sanitation activities of a mass character, all to protect the people's health. The state develops physical culture and promotes mass sports activities to build up the people's physique.
Article 22. The state promotes the development of literature and art, the press, broadcasting and television undertakings, publishing and distribution services, libraries, museums, cultural centres and other cultural undertakings, that serve the people and socialism, and sponsors mass cultural activities. The state protects places of scenic and historical interest,valuable cultural monuments and relics and other important items of China's historical and cultural heritage.
Article 23. The state trains specialized personnel in all fields who serve socialism, increases the number of intellectuals and creates conditions to give full scope to their role in socialist modernization.
Article 24. The state strengthens the building of socialist spiritual civilization through spreading education in high ideals and morality, general education and education in discipline and the legal system, and through promoting the formulation and observance of rules of conduct and common pledges by different sections of the people in urban and rural areas. The state advocates the civic virtues of love for the motherland, for the people, for labour, for science and for socialism; it educates the people in patriotism, collectivism, internationalism and communism and in dialectical and historical materialism; it combats the decadent ideas of capitalism and feudalism and other decadent ideas.
Article 25. The state promotes family planning so that population growth may fit the plans for economic and social development.
Article 26. The state protects and improves the living environment and the ecological environment, and prevents and controls pollution and other public hazards. The state organizes and encourages afforestation and the protection of forests.
Article 28. The state maintains public order and suppresses treasonable and other counter- revolutionary activities; it penalizes actions that endanger public security and disrupt the socialist economy and other criminal activities, and punishes and reforms criminals.
Article 33. All persons holding the nationality of the People's Republic of China are citizens of the People's Republic of China. All citizens of the People's Republic of China are equal before the law. Every citizen enjoys the rights and at the same time must perform the duties prescribed by the Constitution and the law.
Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration.
Article 37. The freedom of person of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. No citizen may be arrested except with the approval or by decision of a people's procuratorate or by decision of a people's court, and arrests must be made by a public security organ. Unlawful deprivation or restriction of citizens' freedom of person by detention or other means is prohibited; and unlawful search of the person of citizens is prohibited. Article 38. The personal dignity of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Insult, libel, false charge or frame-up directed against citizens by any means is prohibited.
Article 39. The home of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable. Unlawful search of, or intrusion into, a citizen's home is prohibited.
Article 40. The freedom and privacy of correspondence of citizens of the People's Republic of China are protected by law. No organization or individual may, on any ground, infringe upon the freedom and privacy of citizens' correspondence except in cases where, to meet the needs of state security or of investigation into criminal offences, public security or procuratorial organs are permitted to censor correspondence in accordance with procedures prescribed by law.
Article 41. Citizens of the People's Republic of China have the right to criticize and make suggestions to any state organ or functionary. Citizens have the right to make to relevant state organs complaints and charges against, or exposures of, violation of the law or dereliction of duty by any state organ or functionary; but fabrication or distortion of facts with the intention of libel or frame-up is prohibited. In case of complaints, charges or exposures made by citizens, the state organ concerned must deal with them in a responsible manner after ascertaining the facts. No one may suppress such complaints, charges and exposures, or retaliate against the citizens making them. Citizens who have suffered losses through infringement of their civil rights by any state organ or functionary have the right to compensation in accordance with the law.
Article 43. Working people in the People's Republic of China have the right to rest. The state expands facilities for rest and recuperation of working people, and prescribes working hours and vacations for workers and staff.

Article 51. The exercise by citizens of the People's Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.
Article 52. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the unity of the country and the unity of all its nationalities.
Article 54. It is the duty of citizens of the People's Republic of China to safeguard the security, honour and interests of the motherland; they must not commit acts detrimental to the security, honour and interests of the motherland.