Joint Statement KKE- PCPE

[Delenda Carthago]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RurAZmwZVPQ/T2NJ53Ry1MI/AAAAAAAAEoE/XhrGoV7jzoc/s440/pcpe-kke.JPG

The Communist Party of Greece (KKE) and the Communist Party of the People’s of Spain (PCPE) have taken the initiative to make a joint statement in the face of the complex developments of the capitalist crisis and the savage offensive of capital against the working class and the poor popular strata both in Greece and Spain as well as in Europe as a whole.


Capitalism cannot solve the problems of the people


The causes of the crisis which is a crisis of the capitalist mode of production itself, a crisis of capital over-accumulation, highlight the boundaries of the capitalist system and the need for its overthrow as well as the timeliness of socialism.

The bourgeois and opportunist forces are being exposed on a daily basis, particularly the “European Left Party”, which have for some time been making assessments: regarding casino-capitalism, a crisis caused by neo-liberalism, a crisis of the financial system as well as a debt crisis. Theses forces have been exposed by the development of the crisis itself. The proposals of the ELP concerning “a pro-people capitalist development” and concerning multi-facetted borrowing via the ECB, which the working class and poor popular strata will be called on to pay for, are tailored for big capital and its interests.

Those forces, bourgeois and opportunist, which saluted and supported the EU, voting for the Maastricht Treaty and the EMU, have also been exposed by the developments themselves. Today those forces which fostered and systematically continue to foster illusions about a “pro-people architecture” of the EU, about its alleged re-establishment, have been refuted. The anti-worker barbarity, which is being promoted by the EU and the bourgeois governments –liberal or social democratic or centre-right or centre-left– serves capital by creating incredible profits and by bankrupting the workers. They promote this permanent state of barbarity through savage cuts in salaries, pensions, dismissals, with unpaid workers and the plundering of the social security funds, through harsh taxation and privatizations. The massive expansion of poverty and the dramatic increase in unemployment reveal the aggressiveness of capital and its aim to devalue the price of labour power, to destroy productive forces in a mass way in order to salvage its profitability in the conditions of the crisis.


In the face of this goal the inter-imperialist competition is sharpening and deepening, demonstrating that the EU is not a union of the peoples but was and is a union of the imperialists which cannot become pro-people. The anxiety which the ELP and other opportunist forces are exhibiting regarding the salvation of the EU, their propaganda to prettify it highlight that they faithfully serve the perpetuation of capitalism and class exploitation.

The EU serves the strategy of capital for cheaper labour power in the competition with the other imperialist states and unions. This strategy explains why there is a general tendency, not only in Greece and Spain but in the whole of Europe, for savage measures to be taken which attack the people and increase the profits of the monopolies. The ELP submits to this strategy with its Statutes and the acceptance of “the EU’s principles” which are in the service of capital. The EU is not a counterweight to the USA nor should the peoples choose imperialist, as the opportunists and the ELP do. Objectively the capitalist crisis, the realignment of the imperialist powers and their intensified competition stoke new flashpoints of war and the massacre of the peoples. The peoples must decisively refuse to shed their blood for the interests of the bourgeois class.


The overthrow of capitalism is the way out and not its management


The developments underline that there can be no return to the past. No expanded state ownership on the terrain of the dominance of the monopolies can have a positive outcome for the peoples in the conditions of the liberalized capitalist market. No “pole of state banks” or an allegedly pro-people transformation of the ECB, no allegedly pro-people “social fund” can constitute a way out for the working class and the poor popular strata.


Sovereignty and democracy, without the disengagement of every country from the EU together with the overthrow of capital’s power, cannot exist. The need today is for class-oriented rallying, the regroupment of the labour movement, the popular alliance of the workers and the poor popular strata to fight for working class power. The formation of a class pole in the labour movement is a pre-condition for the correct orientation of the struggles.


Hope lies in the class struggle


We salute the great struggles of the workers in Greece, Spain and many other countries with the communists and class-oriented forces in the front line. Such struggles will multiply. We particularly salute the magnificent strike of the steelworkers in Greece. This struggle, like the general strikes, demonstrates in practice that the crucial battle will not be waged in the squares with the “indignant citizens”, or at the social dialogues of the compromised representatives of the ITUC/ETUC. The anger and indignation in order to have a prospect must be expressed in the workplaces, where the class struggle is judged, in opposition to the so-called “social cohesion” and the social dialogues which are promoted and supported by the social-democrats, the ELP and the compromised confederations of trade unions, the ITUC and ETUC.


In our countries the existence and activity of a discrete class-oriented pole is a resource and legacy for the struggle of the working class and popular strata. The All-workers Militant Front (PAME) in Greece, as well as the incipient Committees of Workers Unity (CUO) in Spain, constitute a valuable support because they promote the class struggle and expose the undermining role of the compromised leaderships of the trade union movement, and organize the struggle of the working class against capital.


The KKE and the PCPE will strengthen their joint initiatives both in their countries and in the International Communist Movement in order to invigorate the perspective in the working class and the popular strata which is forged by the revolutionary strategy for an implacable class struggle for working class power. The International Communist Review plays a particular role and has a special contribution to this cause. This is an initiative of the theoretical journals of communist parties which aims at reinforcing the Marxist-Leninist direction in the international communist movement as a pre-condition for its necessary regroupment.


Socialism is necessary, timely and the only way out


The bourgeois and opportunists who saluted the overthrow of socialism, who spoke of the “period of freedom, prosperity and peace”, have been completely refuted. Today the ELP bears a particular responsibility for the anti-communist hysteria because it accepted the core of the offensive of the bourgeois class by denying and slandering the socialism we knew, promoting the “21st century socialism” which is nothing other than capitalism with a “human face”, something that cannot exist. The nostalgia for socialism in the countries where it had been constructed is increasing today. The peoples who experienced socialism do not forget it. The CPs can today draw conclusions regarding the laws of socialist construction which were violated and the mistakes which were made. The new socialist revolutions will have a legacy before them, the socialism we knew, the superiority of the socialised and centrally planned economy, without capitalists and exploitation, without crises and unemployment, with disengagement from NATO and the EU, without insecurity about the future, where the working class will be in charge and in control, the class which will take the reins of power into its hands.


March 16, 2012

http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-03-16-joint-statement/

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

**Caveat: anarchists not welcome, right?

[Delenda Carthago]

**Caveat: anarchists not welcome, right?

How is this even relevant?

[l'Enfermé]

I have heard of the KKE, and the controverse that surrounds them around here, but I've never heard of the PCPE. Are they a strong in Spain?

You're a member of the KKE, yeah? I've seen accusations around here that the KKE has acted in inappropriate ways, i.e handing over anarchists to the police, affiliating with neo-Nazis, etc, how true are these claims?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Is the PCPE the Spanish equivalent of the KKE?

[Delenda Carthago]

Is the PCPE the Spanish equivalent of the KKE?

Yes.

[Delenda Carthago]

affiliating with neo-Nazis, etc, how true are these claims?

Yes. Very true. As you can see here, KKE also uses swastiga as its symbol.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg823/scaled.php?server=823&filename=07032011249.jpg&res=medium

and here nazis are posting KKE posters.

http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd225380/nontas_kke.jpg

and as you can see here, fascists are writing on the wall ΚΚΕ= ΣΚΑΤΑ
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg825/scaled.php?server=825&filename=07032011252.jpg&res=medium

if you google-translate ΣΚΑΤΑ you will see that it means "the best"

[PhoenixAsh]

Interesting statement from the KKE....here is another...




Rise up or be finished, warns Papariga
18 Mar 2012


The view that Pasok and New Democracy were leading Greece towards elections riddled “with terrifying quandaries” was expressed by Communisti Party Leader Aleka Papariga on Sunday, while talking at a party rally on the island of Crete.

"Either we rise up, or we will be finished," Papariga told party members and supporters in Iraklion, adding that the country "is in the midst of a storm of (austerity) measures", warning that "up until the elections, the Pasok-New Democracy coalition government will implement a new series of harsh measures, not through dialoguea nd public debate, but with an orgy of intimidation aimed at the Greek people".

Reiterating her arguments against the memorandum, Papariga said that it was leading to the impoverishment of the people and referred to the new loan agreement, which will be discussed in parliament on Tuesday, as a "guillotine for the masses".

"They're sending the working class back to the Middle Ages, for the sake of big capital profits. They're loading unbelievable hardship and poverty on the people, condemning their children to unemployment or to work in exchange for 400 euros," Papariga continued.

Warning that the public will be terrorised up until the elections, Papariga noted that what can make the difference and create hope for the people, and that which should "terrorise them" (the mainstream parties), is the electoral strength of the Communist party. (AMNA)

[PhoenixAsh]

Also interesting is that KKE still rejects any cooperation and joint effort between revolutionary parties and rejects any form of diversity of tactics agreement. So basically their call for class struggle and rising up means:

vote within the bourgeois system to oust capitalism

[Delenda Carthago]

Also interesting is that KKE still rejects any cooperation and joint effort between revolutionary parties and rejects any form of diversity of tactics agreement. So basically their call for class struggle and rising up means:

vote within the bourgeois system to oust capitalism

It actually means "organise in your workplaces, in your neibourhoods, in your schools, your univercities to overthrow the system". If KKE was willing or planning to achieve anything through elections, they would answer positively to the many propositions of SYRIZA for an electorial front for a "progressive left wing (capitalist) goverment".If they did that, polls show that they would easily become govermenet. But thats not what KKE is aiming for.

I m gonna let someone for the CC to say what exactly is KKE aiming for.


Does the Communist Party want to govern?
Article Makis Mailis


The answer is completely different than what the average person who knows little of the policy of the Communist Party expects, and is as follows: The Communist Party is not fighting to govern by itself, it is struggling so the working class will take the power, which will bring benefit to the whole people. With all its power the Communist Party will fight from the specified location, which will be government for the establishment of workers' power and build socialism - communism.

The Communist Party does not promise to employees that it will solve the problems. If they do not become the protagonists of Labor and arbiters of their future, no Communist Party will not be able alone to save them.

So the question, "if the Communist Party wants to rule," once referred to current circumstances, an open response: The Communist Party will not consent to or take part in any bourgeois government, in order to manage the capitalist crisis and general the exploitation of man by man, ie capital gains of the working class and the working classes.

If you do that, you are commiting a crime against the interests of Labor and poor self-town and countryside. Such a right has not. If you did this, the working class will lose its leadership in general and the people would be left without a compass, at the mercy of urban policy.

There is no alternative for the people under the domination of monopolies within their power. Which supports the opposite party, just kidding the world. The dilemma is: Labor - people power or civil. Nothing in between.

Based on the above strategy works by the Communist Party daily for the development of labor - the popular struggle of the people's alliance, giving the weight first and foremost in the factories and industries. It seeks to recast the movement and organization of action against the abolition of collective bargaining, not to apply to individual contracts, against layoffs, cuts in wages and pensions, the black and uninsured work part-time and flexible working for protection of the unemployed against the hike, not to cut the current in the popular for many families and the like. And supports (life has confirmed) that the struggle against the government action - the EU is stronger, the more the class labor and other movements (self-employed, the peasantry, etc.), the greater the influence of the Communist Party , ie the longer the fight goes to the heart of politics, which is the overthrow of the power of capital.

Many workers, exhausted from the laminated measures against them the last three years, and not even having realized the need for radical changes, looking here and now, sometimes desperately, a solution that will alleviate to some extent even of their suffering . Why of course the unemployed can not wait for socialism to be able to work and thus to survive. And hope to spontaneously created in the elections a government that will look and poor, as they say.

The unemployed, people living to 300 and 500, all impoverished, are all right on their side and every right to resent and rebel every right to ask here and now solve basic problems. The question is how will a solution to these and many other problems. So how is it possible to tackle unemployment, the complete dismantling of industrial relations, how can there be steady work for all, decent wages and leisure and many more? And it is possible to create a government that will face? Anyone Labor and other breadwinner believe this is realistic, we may say that they are illusions. From the misery that led the unpopular policy should draw conclusions and to fight back in concurrence with the Communist Party and other pioneering labor and popular forces and with class hatred for those responsible: the monopolies, their parties, the EU does not have choice. Otherwise you will suffer the same and worse. And especially their children.

Which is that the government wanted and could cope with unemployment, starvation wages, the accuracy, Insurance, without fight the monopolies and the EU? Such a government can not exist. And even if we assume that there was the attempt, it was bound to clash over the entire matter to the Monopolies and the EU, which would react and would undermine. For example, the SYN / SYRIZA argues that so-called leftist government would repeal the moratorium. This means direct conflict with the EU and the domestic capital, thus undermining the government from the left hand and various forms of economic and political reaction, which would bring this government in the necessity to proceed to break with the EU, taking off to Greece from it. Otherwise it would be forced to fold, leading the people in another tragedy. But the SYN / SYRIZA opposes the release of the EU's why the proposal makes a mockery. Coarse ridicule, as that will solidly beat his fist on the table with the EU, to the force!

Even more now that a new storm is imminent attack unpopular after the elections, especially since it has been decided and the bourgeois parties, any government form you have committed to implement.

The conclusion is: The question on the table the need for socialization of monopolies, release from the EU and the establishment of labor - people's power, which will erase the debt. Those who, like SYN / SYRIZA, view the so-called "leftist government" or "antimnimoniaki government," deceiving the people, for the following simple reason: They promise Filolaou measures, without conflict with the monopolies and the EU cultivate false hopes that there easy solutions, but these do not exist.

The Communist Party uses the parliamentary elections as a front of the class struggle and asking people to vote in order to express at the ballot box and a powerful blow to the rotten bourgeois political system. This strong support will strengthen the working - folk wrestling after the election, until the overthrow.

The Communist Party is fighting to annihilate the people of the ideological influence of the parties' evromonodromou "and not merely to defeat the bipartisanship. Certainly the most popular forces had voted the New Democracy and PASOK and in the last election, and from this point of view the bulk of voters ND and PASOK have to leave. But that is not enough. The vote well spent is directed at the ballot box and only the Communist Party.

Of all the past-and of course the primary program of the Communist Party-the Communist Party that it is one of the so-called left parties. Is Communist Party, not only in name, but also in content. If it was only in name, as with other communist parties, the bourgeoisie will not treat as enemy but as a spare civilian personnel.

The character of the parties is not geographically defined, such attempts and have established: right, center left, center left, and so on. This name does not say anything. In contrast, obscures the class expression of the parties themselves to one or the other name. And obscures the diversity of the Communist Party since the tsouvaliazoun with other so-called left.

The Communist Party is the party of the working class. The other parties express urban interests, whether called social democratic or otherwise.

Just because the KKE Communist Party has, and because this program is the party can express not only the interests of the working class and other workers - self-employed. So the interests of all those who call themselves leftists or radicals of the left, do not agree whether the Communist Party at all. It is the only party they can touch, confident that they will not tell them different things tomorrow than what he says and does today. There were fishing in murky waters or stepping on many boats.


From Sunday's Rizospastis("Radical"), KKE's newspaper.

(google translated, the first paragraphs which are the most important have been corrected by me)

edit: the article is an answer to the social dialog that says "well, KKE is right to what it says but they just want to complain, not take the goverment".

[Delenda Carthago]

Another text that shows the above. From Papariga's speach to the workers of a drug company factory.


First of all, we do not fight for a government of the Communist Party, we are fighting for
a Labour government. There is a big difference. We want the
working class in power, which means it governs,
controls, is in the hands of the rich, not the Party. Of course, the Communist Party
to such a government will not be from the outside observer.
But to tell you what governs the working class. Lets say this
factory: The working assemblies shall decide, having a central
planning what and how many drugs will produce, control the organization of
process, defines a number of things. Directs the factory. Will
a manager can initially be defined - in its initial phase -,
but we must confirm the election from the workers to the
withdraw if the workers did not respond. And the plant will have
on the production floor, certainly in the context of a design.
You produce Lonarid, you produce mesulid etc.

Over the hours, the production process, on
health and safety, workers' control assembly and the above
organs. Look at this, in Czarist Russia or in other countries
were uneducated working class. Although they took the power, they did not had
knowledge and the education. And even then
you didnt had scientists from inside the working class and you used
all the old mechanism. Today, the working class in Greece and
Europe is much more experienced, educated. Because, to control you
must have an education, plain instict is not enough. To
You can already read the shots. And yet, they took
the power.

We do not mean to make a government with Communist ministers will
decide and not be able to decide anything this government. If
The factory belongs to the Germans, the government says will upload
wages and the Germans will not upload. You have to have the
keys in your hands, the people have the economy. Goes to
the Communist Party decides what he wants. And now we say 1400 euro salary. We have lived this, no "leftist government" - the story shows - held
2 to 3 years and then came the disappointment. Take a look at the past, with Chile,
Allende etc. "

[Binh]

Why don't they campaign on a platform of taking power and leaving the E.U.?

[PhoenixAsh]

It actually means "organise in your workplaces, in your neibourhoods, in your schools, your univercities to overthrow the system". If KKE was willing or planning to achieve anything through elections, they would answer positively to the many propositions of SYRIZA for an electorial front for a "progressive left wing (capitalist) goverment".If they did that, polls show that they would easily become govermenet. But thats not what KKE is aiming for.

I m gonna let someone for the CC to say what exactly is KKE aiming for.


yes. It is exactly what the KKE is aiming for. Read the nice qoute from Papariga.

noted that what can make the difference and create hope for the people, and that which should "terrorise them" (the mainstream parties), is the electoral strength of the Communist party

[Thirsty Crow]

Just this brief comment.
The idiocy of rambling about the supposed superiority of state planning as executed in the Eastern bloc is staggering. One would suppose that so called communists would be able to enage in a thoruough materialist analysis of the disintegration of USSR and its satellite states, but instead of such a project which could bring political clarification we get the implied chorus of "imperialist sabotage" and "revisionism".

This isn't a matter of scholarly debate, but rather and indication of way such parties conceive of socialism. Calling for national sovereignity and democracy is a rather telling sign as well that still any notion of internationalism is severly lacking. Which is evident in the fact that no party member will probably speak about the simple fact that the problem is posed in Greece but cannot be resolved in Greece. It can only be resolved worldwide.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

yes. It is exactly what the KKE is aiming for. Read the nice qoute from Papariga.

noted that what can make the difference and create hope for the people, and that which should "terrorise them" (the mainstream parties), is the electoral strength of the Communist party


Yes, of Course! The Electoral Strength, i.e. the mass of people behind the Communist idea that would stand up if pushed even further. I never perceived the KKE as wanting to get to to electoral power, i do not have the feeling from reading several articles on their site that this is their goal. I agree they are not a revolutionary party per se, but i disagree that they look to govern within the capitalist institutions very much.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

@Menocchio

I agree we communists should look a lot more at the problems and talk about the conditions of this time, but from my looking into it it seems very much like economic liberalisation and million dollar funded NGO's from Washington used the political dissatisfaction of the people whose wages were stagnating from the arms race, in their imperialist interest. Of course socialism is inherently international and strives for international solidarity, but first the conditions for successful, sustainable and exchange-less society have to be built towards which takes accumulation of capital. Of course there could be anarchist revolution, but it would not last very long within the current domination of counterrevolutionary capital and imperialism. But the future of socialism NEEDS to be worker controlled yes, if not direct democratically(for instance in backward countries like Greece has been forced into), then representational in who their boss is who would submit to the workers and could be repealed by them. If we do not have workers' control, workers democracy, the revolution is not a revolution, but very much a coup of a class.

[Delenda Carthago]

yes. It is exactly what the KKE is aiming for. Read the nice qoute from Papariga.

noted that what can make the difference and create hope for the people, and that which should "terrorise them" (the mainstream parties), is the electoral strength of the Communist party


Seriously, I wont get into this. I think I made very clear my point.

[Thirsty Crow]

Why don't they campaign on a platform of taking power and leaving the E.U.?
Taking power in what sense?
I don't think there is even a remote possibility that an isolated bastion of workers' power would last in this period without the generalization of the struggle across national boundaries. And what good does leaving the EU do for the working class since what is at stake here is the huge debt whose holders would mobilize military resources in the unlikely case that the Greek state, no matter its class charcter, decides to repudiate the debt.

So to reiterate the most important question, what would "taking power" exactly entail?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

How can anybody take this party of pigs and wrynecks seriously?

When the time came to protest at parliament, they not only attacked comrades on the left physically but turned them over to the police. Unforgivable. Would you trust this organisation not to do the same to you, come the next critical moments of the revolution?

[Thirsty Crow]

Of course socialism is inherently international and strives for international solidarity, but first the conditions for successful, sustainable and exchange-less society have to be built towards which takes accumulation of capital.
My opinion is that there simply is no possibility for the construction of socialism in a single state or even in a bloc of states (supposed workers' states) outside the framework of exactly what you mention - capital accumulation. No form of capitalist accumulation is conducive to the development of global socialism, though that doesn't mean that capitalism doesn't lay down the material basis for the future communist society (advances in science, the accumulation of wealth and techniques which can be used both to increase consumption and cut back on working hours etc.). That's precisely the point, that prior to the establishment of the basis for communism there is a necessity for world revolution (which, of course, doesn't mean a simultaneous world revolution).


Of course there could be anarchist revolution, but it would not last very long within the current domination of counterrevolutionary capital and imperialism. But the future of socialism NEEDS to be worker controlled yes, if not direct democratically(for instance in backward countries like Greece has been forced into), then representational in who their boss is who would submit to the workers and could be repealed by them. If we do not have workers' control, workers democracy, the revolution is not a revolution, but very much a coup of a class.I don't think it's meaningful to talk about such a thing as an "anarchist revolution". Social revolution, meaning workers' revolution, entails some basic universal tasks be it the workers in Greece, Tunisia or the US.

And again, socialism has no future if its dependant on choosing who would be the boss. They need to vanish as a social category altogether.

[A Marxist Historian]

Taking power in what sense?
I don't think there is even a remote possibility that an isolated bastion of workers' power would last in this period without the generalization of the struggle across national boundaries. And what good does leaving the EU do for the working class since what is at stake here is the huge debt whose holders would mobilize military resources in the unlikely case that the Greek state, no matter its class charcter, decides to repudiate the debt.

So to reiterate the most important question, what would "taking power" exactly entail?

So what are the Greeks supposed to do? Just bend over and tell their rulers kick me?

Yes, an isolated Greek bastion of workers power wouldn't be viable. But why would it be isolated?

If the Greek workers take the power, that would inspire workers all over Europe to do the same, first in countries like Spain and Italy and Portugal in similar situations, and then in other countries too. And then the world... Hell, even the KKE has some faint grasp of this, that's why they're signing statements together with their Spanish cothinkers.

Would this work? Not necessarily, but you can't win if you don't fight.

Even if the Greeks were completely crushed right from the getgo, like the Paris Commune was, that would inspire the workers of the world and get the workers movement going again.

-M.H.-

[Thirsty Crow]

So what are the Greeks supposed to do? Just bend over and tell their rulers kick me?Did I stated something even implying that I think that the working class in Greece should "bend over"? If not, shut the fuck up and learn how to read without your prejudice getting in the way of, you know, communication.


Yes, an isolated Greek bastion of workers power wouldn't be viable. But why would it be isolated?That's why I asked what does "taking power" exactly mean. I suspect that the assorted leftist parties in Greece, with KKE in the lead, are not internationalists, and given the existing divisions within the global proletariat, I think that the dangers of isolation (and I hope we all know what isolation entails) and military intervention are real, if it were to be shown that there are internationalist oriented class forces and if the bourgeois state was smashed. Unless taking power actually means seizing the control of the bourgeois state apparatus by means of election, and managing capitalism.

If the Greek workers take the power, that would inspire workers all over Europe to do the same, first in countries like Spain and Italy and Portugal in similar situations, and then in other countries too. And then the world... Hell, even the KKE has some faint grasp of this, that's why they're signing statements together with their Spanish cothinkers.No doubt, a social revolution would have a tremendous echo in the rest of the world (I've never denied this).

[Delenda Carthago]

I suspect that the assorted leftist parties in Greece, with KKE in the lead, are not internationalists,

You did saw the title of the thread, right?

[A Marxist Historian]

Did I stated something even implying that I think that the working class in Greece should "bend over"? If not, shut the fuck up and learn how to read without your prejudice getting in the way of, you know, communication.

That's why I asked what does "taking power" exactly mean. I suspect that the assorted leftist parties in Greece, with KKE in the lead, are not internationalists, and given the existing divisions within the global proletariat, I think that the dangers of isolation (and I hope we all know what isolation entails) and military intervention are real, if it were to be shown that there are internationalist oriented class forces and if the bourgeois state was smashed. Unless taking power actually means seizing the control of the bourgeois state apparatus by means of election, and managing capitalism.
No doubt, a social revolution would have a tremendous echo in the rest of the world (I've never denied this).

Well, you opposed Greece leaving the EU, and you said that for the workers to take power in Greece was a dubious proposition. So what then other than "bend over and kick me" do you have to recommend to the Greek workers?

Even in this latest posting, you don't say what the Greek workers ought to do right now, you just point to all the bad things that are likely to happen if they take power. All quite real possibilities, but like the song goes, "I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden."

So, if your alternative isn't "bend over and kick me," what is it? Get on Revleft and read the latest postings? Or what?

-M.H.-

[Thirsty Crow]

Well, you opposed Greece leaving the EU,
I don't think anyone apart from fools would conclude that leaving the EU would mitigate the social crisis in Greece. Maybe nationalists would advocate such a program (of course, not coupled by the advocacy of social revolution).


and you said that for the workers to take power in Greece was a dubious proposition. So what then other than "bend over and kick me" do you have to recommend to the Greek workers?I didn't say that it was a dubious proposition, in fact. I merely stated that without the international spreadout of a hypothetical social revolution it is not dubious, but certain, that the working class in Greece will be crushed. What I also stated is that there are no significant political forces in Greece, in my opinion, which would tirelessly promote internationalism as the only solution to this crisis (as I've stated, paying lip service to international solidarity is nothing when in all probability the real program is that of a specifically state managed capitalism with promised bits of "workers' control") and that the militant sections of the workers' movement doesn't put forward the need for international organization as a matter of primary importance.
So yes, in fact, the propistion is in fact dubious when I think about it since there is the whole host of nasty problems to be tackled, but yet again, every proposition of a social revolution is dubious in this sense


Even in this latest posting, you don't say what the Greek workers ought to do right now, you just point to all the bad things that are likely to happen if they take power. All quite real possibilities, but like the song goes, "I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden."That would be because I'm not an arrogant asshole who not only thinks that he's got all of it right, but also that he places himself in commanding position over the broader working class. I refuse to take this position of dishing out formulae of what workers should do, since I don't know the details of the situation and since I don't envision that the task of the revolutionary organization is to act as a command post for the proletarian army. What I think I do know I already posted and I'll stick to this.
But this is some weird shit. It's as if barking out would-be commands is a barometer of militancy or something.


So, if your alternative isn't "bend over and kick me," what is it? Get on Revleft and read the latest postings? Or what?

-M.H.-It's actually pretty ironic that posting on a forum actually serves as fodder in a flaming contest where it is implied that one side actually does nothing. Okay, if it makes you happy, though as I've stated, what I think is needed in this case is above all the generalization of struggle beyond the borders of nation-states. Any nationalist, autarkic, "nationalize-the-commanding-heights-of-the-economy" deal is simply a road to ruin.


You did saw the title of the thread, right?
If joint statements with another party constitute the core of internationalism in the context of the current situation in Greece and Spain, then we're fucked actually.
Nowhere in that statement did these organizations even mention the need for international revolution as a basic prerequisite of the abolition of capital (something which they also fail to grasp since their actual programmatic content amounts to state managed capitalist accumulation). The statement amounts to flowery and fiery rhetoric and nothing else. And how about the unions, can you provide information with regard to their (and here I basically mean PAME) calls for and actions leading to an international wave of action? What measures were taken in order that this struggle may break the boundary of the state border?

[Delenda Carthago]

Nowhere in that statement did these organizations even mention the need for international revolution as a basic prerequisite of the abolition of capital (something which they also fail to grasp since their actual programmatic content amounts to state managed capitalist accumulation).
Weird. Cause in the statement I read the title was "Capitalism cannot solve the problems of the people". And underneath it "
The overthrow of capitalism is the way out and not its management", and then there was an explenatory why people should oppose capitalist and opportunist "pink left" solutions on the crisis and organise to overthrow the power of the monopolies. Maybe because it didnt said "People to the arms" it wasnt revolutionary enough for you.




And how about the unions, can you provide information with regard to their (and here I basically mean PAME) calls for and actions leading to an international wave of action? What measures were taken in order that this struggle may break the boundary of the state border?Yes. As far as the relations between KKE and PCPE, there have been more meetings that organise the connection between the two parts. One of them you can see it here.
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(if you watch it in youtube it has english subs)

Other than that, PAME has been protagonist to the revival of WFTU. A struggle with its pros and cons but that really stands out in worldwide level for its internationalism and its organisation level.
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And you have to see the framework of our times. Its not that we have a Commintern and KKE stands against it. This is what we have, this is what we have to work with.