Is the US actually a Apartheid State?

[Hexen]

If it is (most likely) then I guess it's final proof that the U.S. is not what it seems to be.

[Franz Fanonipants]

yes.

don't you live here?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

The United States of America is an apartheid state, just like every other capitalist nation. It is an apartheid nation when it comes to classes and how separated they can be relative to power and influence.

But right now, the main apartheid state to focus on is Israel. Israel really crosses all the lines of ethicality because their apartheid is based on race, while ours is based on economic standing.

[gorillafuck]

I guess you could say that it is a de facto apartheid state but it is not an official apartheid state

[Franz Fanonipants]

to be clearer:

it IS a racist state, based on its settler-colonialist dynamic.

the racism of the US is pretty unique and multisided, but its white supremacist regime is of course focused on maintaining capitalism. environmental racism. unequal deployment of educational and legal resources. the incarceration rate of blacks and latinos. the militarization of the border states.

all these point to the racist nature of the us and more specifically the racist nature of capitalism.

but we are all glad that we aren't as fucking racist as most european countries because goddamn.

[Hexen]

The United States of America is an apartheid state, just like every other capitalist nation. It is an apartheid nation when it comes to classes and how separated they can be relative to power and influence.

But right now, the main apartheid state to focus on is Israel. Israel really crosses all the lines of ethicality because their apartheid is based on race, while ours is based on economic standing.

I have to say what's happening in Israel is the very same thing that happened to the First Nation People which drove me to create this thread in the first place.

Of course this is also why most people should stop fetishing over the "Founding Fathers", "The Consitution/Bill of Rights", etc and start learning their history and political science to realize what the US really is and what it is intended for....

[NewLeft]

all these point to the racist nature of the us and more specifically the racist nature of capitalism.
How is capitalism inherently racist and not just opportunistically racist?

[Ocean Seal]

The United States is not an apartheid state ala Israel and South Africa. Many areas of the United States are integrated especially in the South following the victories of the civil rights movement. However, the North, the west coast, and the north mid-west are extremely segregated. The most segregated cities in the country are all in state and cities that vote democrat. Using the invisible hand and iron fist behind it, the United States has created an apartheid state in a very different manner than those who did it by clear force. Its a clear example of capitalist dictature.

[Hexen]

The United States is not an apartheid state ala Israel and South Africa. Many areas of the United States are integrated especially in the South following the victories of the civil rights movement. However, the North, the west coast, and the north mid-west are extremely segregated. The most segregated cities in the country are all in state and cities that vote democrat. Using the invisible hand and iron fist behind it, the United States has created an apartheid state in a very different manner than those who did it by clear force. Its a clear example of capitalist dictature.

Well from a First Nations people (Native American) perspective, the US kinda is a Apartheid State.

[Tim Cornelis]

Apartheid is a very specific system of obligatory racial segregation, so no. Neither Israel nor the US are apartheid states, only South Africa was.


Well from a First Nations people (Native American) perspective, the US kinda is a Apartheid State.

First Nations are not Native Americans. Native Americans are "indians" from the US, First Nations are "indians" from Canada.

[Franz Fanonipants]

How is capitalism inherently racist and not just opportunistically racist?


what the fuck kind of question is this?

capitalism behaves in a racist manner, does capitalism exist beyond how it behaves in material situations?

e: to be clear, capitalism does not exist except as practiced. and as practiced, capitalism is racist.

[NewLeft]

what the fuck kind of question is this?

capitalism behaves in a racist manner, does capitalism exist beyond how it behaves in material situations?

e: to be clear, capitalism does not exist except as practiced. and as practiced, capitalism is racist.
It was a stupid question because even in theory capitalism is racist.. Did it not justify the stealing of land/resources? Something about the race of labourers..

[TrotskistMarx]

Man, the USA is not only a racist-apartheid society and state. It is an *apartheid state* in other aspects as well. What I am trying to say is that there is so much division in America and so many categories, so many different cultures, sub-cultures, clans, groups, tribes, etc.

There is even an apartheid category in America even for the type of house in which your family lives (This was in part responsable for the house bubble, because many low class families tried to move to middle class houses, in order not to be alienated and harassed by the society)

There is even discrimination in the USA for even the kind and brand of car that your family drives. The USA is apartheid in almost most aspects. There is even discrimination and apartheid against body weight of people. That's right in many sectors of the USA many people with weight gain problems, and/or other physical problems are harassed and alienated. Living in the USA is not a piece of cake, it is not a walk in the park, specially for the young students and young people as a whole, who have to cope with this crazy neurotic, obssessive cumpulsive country with categories, labels and all kinds of neurotic obssessive requirements that would lead any normal person to get into a state of personality psychologic disorders.

I really don't understand how the hell the USA turned out to be a crazy society, a crazy country full of so many different sub-cultures, categories, and divisions among the 320 million people who live in USA, that are an impediment for a united society, and an impediment for the creation of a united marxist socialist front composed of all poor people and low wage workers of the country.


.


If it is (most likely) then I guess it's final proof that the U.S. is not what it seems to be.

[l'Enfermé]

"Apartheid" is a very specific form of racial segregation, and the US doesn't even come close to being an "apartheid" state. The US is pretty much one of the freest societies in the world...and it attained this status only in recent decades(and is being stripped of this status gradually). Even Israel is not an apartheid state , unless the people of the occupied territories are counted as a part of Israel(i.e apartheid is not practiced in Israeli territory, but only in the West Bank).

When it comes to capitalism and racism, capitalism is not inherently racist, but modern racism developed out of conditions created by capitalism. For example, anti-Semitism developed in tandem with the growth of capitalist activity within feudal society in Europe. Anti-black racism developed out of the need for cheap labor for plantations in the New World. Etc etc.

[Hexen]

The US is pretty much one of the freest societies in the world...and it attained this status only in recent decades(and is being stripped of this status gradually).

Actually the US was the "freest country" for the wealthy and never was for the working classes and especially 'minorities' (women, other ethnic groups, etc). Freedom is a subjective term.

[Catma]

How is capitalism inherently racist and not just opportunistically racist?

It is opportunistically racist.

There is ALWAYS an opportunity to use racism for the benefit of state, bourgeoisie, etc.

Ergo, it is always racist, inherently.

[Sasha]

No, since the abolishment of Jim crow its not...

Is it a deeply racist, unequal society with a apartheid past? Yes, of course... but let's keep our terminology right, if the US would still be a apartheid state Obama might as well be a socialist.

[Caj]

Using hyperbolic terms such as "apartheid state" to describe the United States only makes light of actual apartheid systems in the world.

[Franz Fanonipants]

"Apartheid" is a very specific form of racial segregation, and the US doesn't even come close to being an "apartheid" state.

northerneuropean.txt

[l'Enfermé]

northerneuropean.txt
What the fuck does that mean? I'm from the Caucasus. I live in Northern Europe, sure, but are you implying I'm wrong because I live in Northern Europe? Maybe you're the fucking racist.

The US is a "white supremacist" regime? What? The President is half-black. Non-whites are present in all parts of the power structure in the US.

Do I have to repeat myself? "Apartheid" is a very specific term that refers to a South Africa-like regime of legal racial segregation and exclusive rule of a racial minority of a racial majority...none of this even comes close to being the case in the US.

[Lobotomy]

The US is a "white supremacist" regime? What? The President is half-black. Non-whites are present in all parts of the power structure in the US.

while I agree that the US is not an apartheid state, having a half-black president pretty much means nothing, and non-white people are still grossly underrepresented in positions of power.

[l'Enfermé]

while I agree that the US is not an apartheid state, having a half-black president pretty much means nothing, and non-white people are still grossly underrepresented in positions of power.
It does mean something, it categorically disproves the notion that the US is ruled by some sort of "white supremacist" clique.

Regarding non-white people being grossly underrepresented in positions of power, that's racist bullshit. Poor white people are as "grossly" underrepresented as are poor black people and poor Hispanics. Only the ruling class is adequately represented in positions of power, and this class has no race.

[Guy Incognito]

a·part·heid/əˈpärtˌ(h)āt/


Noun:

(in South Africa) A policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
Segregation in other contexts.

Is the US a culture that is divided by class segregation? Yes, even though some fight against it specifically. Section 8 housing for example, some cities have tried to declare it unconstitutional to "force" them to accept poor people into prosperous neighborhoods, because they "don't deserve" to live there. But the federal government ***** slapped them, and told them they had no right to not accept their quota of section 8's. On the other had, you have the housing projects from the old days. The "Ghettos". Which were institutionalized in those days, not too long ago. Not by race since 1965, as Jim Crow laws were abolished. The biggest thing to remember, is that it has to be in the context of A.) Race, and B.) Policy or System.
As it stands now, everyone has equal protection under written law (again, this is policy and system, and not practice, which is subjective). The US government today even goes so far as to guarantee under the Civil Rights act, and the Americans with Disabilities act, that employers cannot discriminate against anyone, on the basis of Race, Religion, Creed, Ethnicity, Sexual preference, etc. Again, this is all Policy and System. In practice, corporations, and various government agencies skirt around the laws to commit racist actions. It's a matter of individual issues and is not policy/system.

So basically? No. But there are a lot of fucking problems. (That most of which can be led right back to the biggest one: Capitalism)

[Lobotomy]

It does mean something, it categorically disproves the notion that the US is ruled by some sort of "white supremacist" clique.

Regarding non-white people being grossly underrepresented in positions of power, that's racist bullshit. Poor white people are as "grossly" underrepresented as are poor black people and poor Hispanics. Only the ruling class is adequately represented in positions of power, and this class has no race.

The president is just one guy and his race is not a very reliable indicator of the overall status of all people of that race. Do you disagree that whites enjoy a disproportionate number of positions of power? and you think it's racist to recognize that non-whites are underrepresented? Whatever that's ludicrous. poor whites are underrepresented in positions of power because they're poor. That particular issue has everything to do with class and nothing to do with race

[Franz Fanonipants]

What the fuck does that mean? I'm from the Caucasus. I live in Northern Europe, sure, but are you implying I'm wrong because I live in Northern Europe? Maybe you're the fucking racist.

i'm saying you have 0 practical experience with race in the united states.

i'm saying you don't live in the militarized border areas of the united states.

i'm saying you don't have anything to do in this conversation but learn, bro.

[l'Enfermé]

i'm saying you have 0 practical experience with race in the united states.

i'm saying you don't live in the militarized border areas of the united states.

i'm saying you don't have anything to do in this conversation but learn, bro.
I have nothing to do but learn? Maybe you should learn the definition of "apartheid" first, how about that? According to you, the US is based on a "settler-colonialist dynamic". What the hell is the being colonized and who are the settlers? The American Indians have long been exterminated.

And what's this about militarized borders? What, do Americans go into Mexico and shot Mexicans because they're brown?

[moulinrouge]

while I agree that the US is not an apartheid state, having a half-black president pretty much means nothing, and non-white people are still grossly underrepresented in positions of power.

The same thing can be said for revolutionary leftist organisations and even for this website.

[Hexen]

a·part·heid/əˈpärtˌ(h)āt/


Noun:

(in South Africa) A policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.
Segregation in other contexts.

Is the US a culture that is divided by class segregation? Yes, even though some fight against it specifically. Section 8 housing for example, some cities have tried to declare it unconstitutional to "force" them to accept poor people into prosperous neighborhoods, because they "don't deserve" to live there. But the federal government ***** slapped them, and told them they had no right to not accept their quota of section 8's. On the other had, you have the housing projects from the old days. The "Ghettos". Which were institutionalized in those days, not too long ago. Not by race since 1965, as Jim Crow laws were abolished. The biggest thing to remember, is that it has to be in the context of A.) Race, and B.) Policy or System.
As it stands now, everyone has equal protection under written law (again, this is policy and system, and not practice, which is subjective). The US government today even goes so far as to guarantee under the Civil Rights act, and the Americans with Disabilities act, that employers cannot discriminate against anyone, on the basis of Race, Religion, Creed, Ethnicity, Sexual preference, etc. Again, this is all Policy and System. In practice, corporations, and various government agencies skirt around the laws to commit racist actions. It's a matter of individual issues and is not policy/system.

So basically? No. But there are a lot of fucking problems. (That most of which can be led right back to the biggest one: Capitalism)

Hmmm...well what about the Trail of Tears and the Native American Reservations? Sounds close to a apartheid state to me though.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The American Indians have long been exterminated.

hahaahahahahahahahaahahaha
ahaahahahaahaha
ahahahahahaahahaha

[Franz Fanonipants]

The same thing can be said for revolutionary leftist organisations and even for this website.

idk i think you might be shocked at the number of browns on revleft

[Franz Fanonipants]

And what's this about militarized borders? What, do Americans go into Mexico and shot Mexicans because they're brown?

ahaaahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahaha
haaaahahaahaaaaahaaa

pt. 2

[l'Enfermé]

Guys, guys: Indian Casinos=APARTHEID

[Franz Fanonipants]

Guys, guys: Indian Casinos=APARTHEID

but if all the indians were exterminated how are they running casinos

[l'Enfermé]

but if all the indians were exterminated how are they running casinos
Where did I say "all"? They were exterminated to the point where they became such a small segment of the population that they became essentially a non-issue. The case of the American Indians, today, is nothing like "Apartheid". Why do I have to repeat this?: Apartheid is a very specific form of racial segregation and minority-rule.

You can't re-define words, otherwise no one will take you seriously.

[Franz Fanonipants]

You can't re-define words, otherwise no one will take you seriously.

de facto apartheid is still apartheid

the united states is a de facto apartheid nation

[Franz Fanonipants]

Where did I say "all"? They were exterminated to the point where they became such a small segment of the population that they became essentially a non-issue.

also, this owns. i will tell the indians i know that they are a non-issue.

[moulinrouge]

de facto apartheid is still apartheid

the united states is a de facto apartheid nation

There is a high rate of mix race mariages, the US has a black president, racial discrimination is illegal, (open) racism is frowned upon.

While i agree that racism is a problem in the US, this does not mean that the there is de facto apartheid.

[Rafiq]

There is a high rate of mix race mariages, the US has a black president, racial discrimination is illegal, (open) racism is frowned upon.

While i agree that racism is a problem in the US, this does not mean that the there is de facto apartheid.

It exists to a certain extent, but not openly.

[Ostrinski]

If apartheid is defined by racial segregation, then yes, it is de facto apartheid, as it is not enforced but it remains the general state of things.

[PhantomRei]

"The term white supremacy is used in academic studies of racial power to denote a system of structural racism which privileges white people over others, regardless of the presence or absence of racial hatred." Legal scholar Frances Lee Ansley explains this definition as follows:


By "white supremacy" I do not mean to allude only to the self-conscious racism of white supremacist hate groups. I refer instead to a political, economic and cultural system in which whites overwhelmingly control power and material resources, conscious and unconscious ideas of white superiority and entitlement are widespread, and relations of white dominance and non-white subordination are daily reenacted across a broad array of institutions and social settings.

Learn. ;)

[MarxSchmarx]

What makes this question quite tricky is that many of the supposedly "non-racial" policies enforced throughout the US are very clearly racist in motivation.

For instance, in urban areas in America there are a host of ridiculously onerous laws that are petty and annoying and designed to benefit the almost exclusively white upper class. An example might be something as mundane as prohibiting commuters from driving on a residential street. To be sure, poor whites are also affected, but in a lot of urban areas these laws exist where there are well-to-do whites and the working people the laws target are strikingly and overwhelmingly people of color. anti-loitering laws are another example.

Then you have the explicit drawing of electoral maps with racial categories in mind, which affects how policy gets made - policies which, such as the massive government subsidies to encourage white flight - have augmented and sharpened racial segregation.

These kinds of petty annoyances were characteristic of apartheid in South Africa; indeed it's hard to say that just because the law doesn't explicitly state "this is policy that discriminates on the basis of race" that therefore it racial segregation isn't enforced.

On the whole I don't think calling it apartheid is quite accurate. But nor is it entirely different in having non-racial intents, in a way that laws in more ethnically homogenous countries tend to be. And apartheid was monolithic in a way that the US government is not - for instance, there are bureaucrats in America charged with going after and dismantling segregation - although these are largely toothless except in the most overt cases.

One cannot ignore how a lot of the edifice on which US regulations and suchwhat are built, indeed predicated upon, and done in the interests of perpetuating racial segregation. The more insidious ways in which racial hierarchies get entrenched in America is a remarkably effective system at entrenching racial inequities.

[l'Enfermé]

de facto apartheid is still apartheid

the united states is a de facto apartheid nation
It's not de facto apartheid. "Apartheid" is a very specific term. It doesn't apply at all. Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Asians, Indians, they can all swim in the same pools. They can all eat in the same restaurants. They can all go to same schools. They can inter-marry. There are no legal barriers segregating races in the United States. A racial minority does not rule over racial majorities. Non-whites are not disenfranchised. Everyone can vote. Racial discrimination is outlawed in the United States.

It's not an apartheid state. You can pretend your unaccepted, made-up meaning of "apartheid" is true all you want, that doesn't mean any serious person has to take you seriously.

[Franz Fanonipants]

most american comrades seem to

[Hexen]

Well maybe it's possible that the US first started out as a Apartheid State but later evolved from that to modern day capitalism?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Well maybe it's possible that the US first started out as a Apartheid State but later evolved from that to modern day capitalism?

among nation states it pioneered it

[l'Enfermé]

most american comrades seem to
Maybe because they don't understand what Apartheid means like you?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Maybe because they don't understand what Apartheid means like you?

i guess that's the real problem comrade

not that, you know, people with lived experience in the us would know anything

[ВАЛТЕР]

Black/Latino Ghettos, Indian Reservations, An OVERWHELMING majority of the prison population is Black/Latino, (they are GROSSLY overrepresented when compared to their population as a whole in the US). An insane fear of anything deemed "foreign". (At least in the Southern/Midwestern State)

Research shows that Blacks/Latinos who commit a crime against a white victim will almost certainly be punished more severely than if they had victimized another minority. Also, it shows that a white who victimizes a minority will be let off much easier.



It IS an apartheid state in the sense that there is segregation and discrimination against non-whites. It is not an apartheid state in that there is a law that causes this segregation.

However, anybody who has spent time there knows where the "Black" side of town is, where the "Mexican" side of town is, where the "White trash" side of town is, and where the "Middle class" (ie: Well off, white, christian, families) live.

Don't kid yourself guys, the US is a terrifyingly racist and xenophobic, place. At least in the state that I spent most of my time in. (Oklahoma) However, this is VERY common in all parts of the country.

As for capitalism, it is a racist system when it needs to be. Capitalism causes as much division within the working class as possible, by any means necessary. Whether it be drawing imaginary lines in the sand, or inciting fear/hatred between nationalities/races.

[antiracist]

Of course it is.

[ckaihatsu]

On the whole I don't think calling it apartheid is quite accurate. But nor is it entirely different in having non-racial intents,


Where's Wikileaks when you need it -- ?!

[ABMarx]

I guess you could say that it is a de facto apartheid state but it is not an official apartheid state

This is basically correct, unfortunately.