Stalin in 1945

[daft punk]

What was Stalin's foreign policy at the end of WW2?

[daft punk]

By capitalism I mean free market capitalism, you know, the normal bourgeois thing. Not to be confused by certain 'left coms' who think the USSR was capitalist (not state capitalist, capitalist, period.)

[Prometeo liberado]

Safegaurd the gains made by the partisans and other communist after the war. Ensure that Nazism could not rear it's ugly head on the continent and yes assist other countries in the implementation of socialism.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I think this poll is a trap you made up to get Stalinists like me to come here so you can "educate us" on Trotsky and Cliff bullshit. Obviously, with his support for socialist nations worldwide, like Mongolia, and the anti-fascists partisans during WWII, I can safely say that he wanted to spread socialism at a safe and pragmatic pace.

[Comrade Samuel]

Spread socialism internationally of corse, we can sit here and debate "Stalinism" v.s socialism all day but we all know that will just turn it this from an innocent question about history to another "Albania" thread.

Returning to topic I agree with Jbeard's statements about safeguarding the gains made by the partisans and preventing the return of nazism but it's also worth starring that Stalin's attempts to make socialism world-wide where not a matter of choice but of life or death due to the United state's fear of the USSR replacing them as the worlds most powerful nation.

[l'Enfermé]

His foreign policy was to advance the interests of the Soviet ruling class, the Stalinist bureaucracy. In China, for example, he supported the nationalists against the Stalinists(well, Maoists)right until Mao's peasants won the Civil War, in Greece he entirely abandoned the Stalinists where they would have won if he supported them...the Bolshevik policy of advancing the goals of the International Socialist Movement were abandoned as soon the Stalinists usurped the Third International, in favor of advancing the petty interests of Stalinist state.

[daft punk]

I voted 3. There is overwhelming evidence for this, though some Trots would see it as a bit of a con-trick pulled by Stalin, and his real aim was 2. I'm dubious about that, but he may have kept his options open.

Why do I think Stalin was trying to establish capitalism? Because he said so, and so did other leading communists. These were the theories of Popular Frontism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front) and Stagism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stage_theory). Also their actions fitted that, for a couple of years anyway.

As Bert Cochran (writing as E.R. Frank) put it:

"In the existing circumstances, with the absolute breakdown of the capitalist apparati, it would have been almost child’s play for the Red Army to consolidate the people’s victory, to protect and secure newly-created Soviet states and thus to set all of Europe aflame. But alas, the Red Army entered Eastern Europe as an executor of the counter-revolutionary politics of the Kremlin. It did not support the uprisings of the masses; it suppressed them."
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/cochran/1946/11/eeurope.htm

There is lots of detail at that link and this one

http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/ch2-1.htm

I dont wanna write much on China (and I have some very juicy stuff lined up) as I just started a separate thread on that. Hope someone posts on it. So let's pick a random Eastern European country or two:


In April 1944 as the Red Army was moving eastward toward Rumania, Molotov issued a statement assuring the capitalists of the world that “the existing social structure of Rumania” would not be interfered with. The CBS picked up a broadcast from Moscow on September 20 at a time when the Red Army was already in Eastern Europe, which similarly declared: “The Soviet Union will not introduce its order into other states and it does not change the existing order in them.”
The Balkan masses paid no attention to these stern warnings, and very likely were unaware of them. They rose up against their agelong tryants and oppressors and trustingly believed that the Red Army would help them take their destiny into their own hands.
The Western correspondents reported that a great revolutionary upsurge occurred in Rumania coincident with the approach and entrance of the Red Army. With their rule desperately menaced by the mass revolt from one side and the avenging Red Army from the other, the Rumanian capitalists and landlords organized a coup d’etat in August 23, 1944 under the leadership of King Michael. The king suddenly appeared in the guise of a great “democrat”; he denounced the previous pro-German policy of the government and set up a new coalition People’s Front cabinet, composed of the traditional Rumanian parties, headed by a reactionary army general, Constantin Senatescu. The Stalinists and Social Democrats hastened to enter the Cabinet; and through their able assistance, the revolutionary upheaval was successfully quelled. The old ruling cliques were permitted to reestablish themselves, and the creaking, half-expiring landlord-capitalist regime of Rumania was provided with a new lease on life. Isolated workers’ groups, who persisted in defying or seeking to upset the reestablished “law and order,” were quickly suppressed by the Red Army authority and later by the reestablished internal police, which was likewise headed and manned by the Stalinists.
In Bulgaria, the entrance of the Red troops was the signal for a full-scale revolutionary uprising. The dispatches stated that in the Capital, the Red flag was flying over all the government buildings as well as over thousands of homes. We read of the immediate arrests of fascists by the armed masses; of huge demonstrations in the major cities; of a railway strike that paralyzed the government; of the military authorities losing all effective control over the situation. Civil war had started. The Bulgarian masses were preparing for the new Red dawn.

Stalinist Reaction

But all the revolutionary hopes aroused in the masses were quickly dashed to the ground. The local Stalinist leaders working hand in hand with the Red Army authorities stamped out the fires of the civil war. Joseph M. Levy, correspondent for the New York Times, telephoned from Sophia on September 21 that “In a few of the provinces ... pillaging and even killing of the suspected fascists occurred, but these acts were soon stopped by the militia, composed of strictly disciplined young men and women.” He continued that “Communist (Stalinist) leaders are doing everything they can to prevent extremists in the party from agitating for Sovietization of the country.”
When the local Stalinists were unequal to the counter-revolutionary task at hand, the Red Army stepped into the breach. Levy stated:
On several occasions when local Communists in the provinces tried to displace city officials and take matters into their own hands they were ordered by the Russian military authorities to return the jobs to the old officials until orders were received from the Fatherland Front government in Sophia.
A quisling People’s Front regime, similar to the one in Rumania, was set up under the title of the Fatherland Front Government. The Cabinet, including its quota of Stalinists and Social Democrats, was headed by Premier Kimon Georgieff and War Minister Damian Velcheff, both members of the so-called Zveno Group, a semi-fascist military clique.
The new government, propped up by the bayonets of the Red Army, proceeded immediately to “pacify” the turbulency of the masses and reestablish “order.” John Chamley, special correspondent of the London News Chronicle reported that the government printed an appeal ordering Bulgarian soldiers to return to their barracks. They promised that part of the antifascist militia would be absorbed into the regular army. They furthermore instructed all armed civilians to report to designated places and surrender their arms. Thus the new government, a bloc of traditional capitalist politicians, semi-fascist Bulgarian militarists, and Stalinist Social Democratic quislings, supported by the Kremlin, began its work of governing in the classic manner of all counter-revolutions – the disarming of the insurgent masses. Anton Yugoff, the Stalinist Minister of the Interior, in charge of the police, went out of his way to reassure the capitalists that they had nothing to fear, that the Stalinists were absolutely “reliable.” He said:
“The government of which I am a member and on whose behalf I speak, categorically denies that it has any intention of establishing a Communist regime in Bulgaria. There is no truth in rumors that the government intends to nationalize any private enterprise in the country.”

same link as first quote

So, in words and deeds the Stalinists tried to quell the revolutions. There is a lot of evidence there, and that is just a couple of paragraphs from one writer on two countries, but even just that should be enough an open minded person pretty much convinced of a vote for 3.

Why did Stalin suppress the revolutions?

For 2 basic reasons:

1. He was keen to stay chums with the west, maybe get some aid, definitely not get nuked.

2. Stalinists are gonna roll their eyes here :rolleyes:but tough shit. Stalin was scared of real socialist revolutions, because if they ended up being run democratically by the masses, it would make Russia look a bit crap wouldn't it. His regime could be swept away by the masses in the blink of an eye.

Read the above quote thoroughly, have a look at the two links. There is pretty solid evidence from most countries.:ohmy:

[daft punk]

I think this poll is a trap you made up to get Stalinists like me to come here so you can "educate us"

Ooho, ooho, ooho, ooho You're such a, you're such a You're such a, you're such a Hot temptation
You just walk right in Walk, walk, walk right in and Ooho, ooho, ooho, ooho Ooho, ooho, ooho, ooho
Gonna get up, gonna get up Gonna get up Thank, thank, thank you, baby Gonna get up, gonna get up Gonna get up Just don't move

:cool:

Nah, not a trap. A serious, sensible discussion between adults. And Stalinists. oops. http://serve.mysmiley.net/ashamed/ashamed0003.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-love-smileys.php)Feel free to demolish whatever I post.

I think in one or two counties it maybe have been a bit more 2 than 3.

[l'Enfermé]

And yeah, like Daft Punk said, genuine socialism would greatly discredit and destabilize the Stalinist system in Russia.

[dodger]

His foreign policy was to advance the interests of the Soviet ruling class, the Stalinist bureaucracy. In China, for example, he supported the nationalists against the Stalinists(well, Maoists)right until Mao's peasants won the Civil War, in Greece he entirely abandoned the Stalinists where they would have won if he supported them...the Bolshevik policy of advancing the goals of the International Socialist Movement were abandoned as soon the Stalinists usurped the Third International, in favor of advancing the petty interests of Stalinist state.

The British Working Class were not interested in the 3rd International or any bloody international. They wanted peace. Prosperity and rid themselves of Churchill. Empire too. That was quite enough to be getting on with. 1945 oh and other things too, I was born in 1947.

[ParaRevolutionary]

Procure as much as he could for himself.

[Khalid]

The truth is: Stalin wanted to spread free market capitalism but failed and a socialist world camp of 900 million people emerged. What an accident. Oh but wait... Didn't Stalin want socialism in one country? Oh no, it was his evil plot to spread capitalism... all over the world!

[Grenzer]

The truth is: Stalin wanted to spread free market capitalism but failed and a socialist world camp of 900 million people emerged. What an accident. Oh but wait... Didn't Stalin want socialism in one country? Oh no, it was his evil plot to spread capitalism... all over the world!

Har har har.

Of course Stalin wanted to spread socialism and glorious proletarian revolution. Fox News said it, so it must be true, right?

[l'Enfermé]

The truth is: Stalin wanted to spread free market capitalism but failed and a socialist world camp of 900 million people emerged. What an accident. Oh but wait... Didn't Stalin want socialism in one country? Oh no, it was his evil plot to spread capitalism... all over the world!
A socialist world camp of 900 million people didn't emerge...what emerged was a Stalinist Empire that enslaved 900 million people.

[lombas]

None of the available options. I think it is fairly clear Stalin wanted to consolidate power and to stabilize international relationships. This is demonstrated by his perfect following the Yalta rules (contrary to Churchill and Truman), for example by not intervening in the Greek Civil War.

This wasn't new because it is perfectly coherent with his strategy in the years/months before the Second World War (Finnish Winter War, Molotov-von Ribbentrop Pact, ...).

His attitude made sure the Soviet-Union expanded its influence in Europe incredibely, while creating satellite-states like Hungary and Poland that would allow for gradual implementation of socialist policies (Hungary would turn out to be a "difficult" student).

All in all, he achieved what he wanted to achieve. He greatly expanded both his and international socialism's sphere of influence, while acknowledging the limits to his capabilities. Gaining influence in Scandinavia, West-Germany, let alone France or Italy was beyond his power (or interest).

[Drosophila]

Har har har.

Of course Stalin wanted to spread socialism and glorious proletarian revolution. Fox News said it, so it must be true, right?

That sounds awfully positive for Fox News.

[Bostana]

It was to spread Socialism internationally no doubt.

I mean just look on what countries became Communist because of Stalin.

I will admit some of them failed in personnel Socialism but in the beginning when they were truly Communist it was great. A good example is Cuba. Fidel Castro and Che Guevara said they were inspired by Stalin to create an ML Communist state. It is considered to be the closest thing to a Socialist State. Now-a-days, thanks to Raul, a lot of programs have been messed up.

[daft punk]

The British Working Class were not interested in the 3rd International or any bloody international. They wanted peace. Prosperity and rid themselves of Churchill. Empire too. That was quite enough to be getting on with. 1945 oh and other things too, I was born in 1947.

Ok, lets take Britain as an example. The CP opposed the Labour Party and campaigned for a national government.

"In Britain the CP was calling for a 'national government':


'These is a wide and growing readiness to recognise the necessity of national unity in the crucial coming years and full recognition of the sincerity and genuineness of Mr Churchill’s concern for it ...'


and actively campaigned against a Labour government:


'If the Labour Party desires to win public confidence, it will resist the sorry quibbling of those who want to undermine the great agreement between Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin ...' [77] (http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/footnote.htm#77)



(http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/footnote.htm#77)
Ignoring the advice of the CP, the working class swept Churchill aside and elected a Labour Party government.


The CPGB then portrayed the Atlee government as representing the 'transition to socialism', condemned the Tories they had shortly before been defending as 'the half brother of fascism' and enthusiastically worked to dampen down class struggle.


'the trade unionists must recognise the fact that they are operating in a controlled economy, which is being steered by a labour government. They will have to consider the bearing of any wage policy which they put forward on the entire economic policy that the government is pursuing'. [78] (http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/footnote.htm#78)"


http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/ch2-1.htm

[daft punk]

The truth is: Stalin wanted to spread free market capitalism but failed and a socialist world camp of 900 million people emerged. What an accident. Oh but wait... Didn't Stalin want socialism in one country? Oh no, it was his evil plot to spread capitalism... all over the world!

Impossible to know if you are being sarcastic or what, try doing a straight post.

Then I can debunk all your points without having to guess what you are saying.

[daft punk]

None of the available options. I think it is fairly clear Stalin wanted to consolidate power and to stabilize international relationships. This is demonstrated by his perfect following the Yalta rules (contrary to Churchill and Truman), for example by not intervening in the Greek Civil War.

well, I think he actually tried to sabotage the Greek communists' bid for power.


This wasn't new because it is perfectly coherent with his strategy in the years/months before the Second World War (Finnish Winter War, Molotov-von Ribbentrop Pact, ...).

His attitude made sure the Soviet-Union expanded its influence in Europe incredibely, while creating satellite-states like Hungary and Poland that would allow for gradual implementation of socialist policies (Hungary would turn out to be a "difficult" student).

ok, lets briefly do these 2 countries.

HUNGARY

Stalin agreed on a 50-50 split with Churchill, right? And you are saying he, what, cunningly stuck to it?


"The Red Army entered Hungary in September 1944, after a battle in which 50 per cent of Hungary’s soldiers perished. The masses rose up everywhere against the hated fascist Horty regime. A Provisional government was set up by the Red Army in Debrecen in December 1944, and Budapest laid under siege until falling on 18 January 1945. With massive uprisings against the capitalists and landowners throughout the country, sweeping land reforms were carried out by Interior Minister Imre Nagy (http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/biographies.htm#Nagy). Nagy was a popular figure in Hungary, and regarded as a moderate.
The conception behind the land reforms was the abolition of feudalism in the countryside. There was no intention to carry forward towards nationalisation of industry.
Elections were held in November 1945. Rather than boosting the popularity of the Communists, the land reforms gave an enormous boost to the Smallholders' Party (57%), which won a majority over the Hungarian United Workers Party[73] (http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/footnote.htm#73) (the Communist Party and the Social Democrats each getting 16%) "



"In Hungary, Bulgaria, Rumania and the area of Germany under Soviet occupation the capitalists had in the main collaborated with the Nazis and now faced the vengeance of masses. In these countries the Stalinist armies facilitated the reconstruction of capitalism. While continuing to suppress any independent political or social organisation, the 'liberators' systematically milked these countries for their own needs, either in the form of 'reparations' (especially Hungary and Rumania), or simply by means of unequal contracts. The economies of the occupied countries were also tied into trading relations with the Soviet economy. In particular, the USSR needed the industrial produce of Czechoslovakia and Poland."
http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/ch2-1.htm

sounds like a bit of 3 mixed with 2

POLAND

Well, of course Stalin had completely closed down the Polish Communist Party and killed their leaders.


The Polish Communist Party had been dissolved by Stalin in 1938, but once the War began the need for the support of the Polish working class became obvious, and a group of Polish communists was parachuted into Poland in December 1941. Most of these were arrested or killed, but in November 1943 Wladyslaw Gomulka (http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/biographies.htm#Gomulka), who had remained in Poland after 1939, became the Secretary of the PPR. In late 1943, Gomulka organised a National Council of the Homeland, intended to be the nucleus of a broad 'democratic front'. The Socialists and the Peasants' Party declined to join however. But the National Council received Soviet support and organised the Polish First Army, numbering 80,000 soldiers and fought their way westwards with the Soviet armies. In January 1945, Stalin formally recognised the Committee of National Liberation as the legitimate Polish government.
Five years of Nazi occupation had left Poland physically and socially shattered. One Pole in five had perished as a direct result of the war. The Polish bourgeoisie and middle classes had not collaborated with the Nazis, but they had been virtually destroyed by fascist repression. Nearly 40 per cent of the national wealth had been destroyed. Half the public transport, 60 per cent of the schools and 60 per cent of all postal and telephone equipment had gone. Half the doctors and lawyers in Poland had been murdered, and 40 per cent of the university professors.
Despite the devastation of the War, the Polish workers had maintained their resistance to the Nazi occupation from beginning to end, and there was now an impatience for real change. A land reform in September 1944 broke up the large estates and distributed six million hectares of land to small farmers. All industrial enterprises employing more than fifty workers were nationalised, so that by late 1946, the state sector accounted for 91 per cent of industrial production. Reconstruction went ahead rapidly, living standards began to recover, and by 1946, the PPR membership reached 235,000.

same link

So, if he wanted to establish capitalism in these countries, as was generally stated, obviously it was tricky the capitalists either didnt exist in the first place much, eg Yugoslavia, collaborated with the Nazis, or as in this case were mostly killed by the Nazis.

In any of these 3 scenarios capitalism was gonna be almost impossible to install.










All in all, he achieved what he wanted to achieve. He greatly expanded both his and international socialism's sphere of influence, while acknowledging the limits to his capabilities. Gaining influence in Scandinavia, West-Germany, let alone France or Italy was beyond his power (or interest).

why do you call it socialism when there was no democracy?

What is your opinion on the evidence I have given, eg post 7. the Russians generally acted in accordance with their stated aim of establishing capitalism, until they found it impossible.

[dodger]

The British Working Class were not interested in the 3rd International or any bloody international. They wanted peace. Prosperity and rid themselves of Churchill. Empire too. That was quite enough to be getting on with. 1945 oh and other things too, I was born in 1947.

As I said daft punk they knew what they wanted. What's more knew what they did not want. Surely a deaf ear to any pronouncements from a piss pot silly leftist party. Bolton had 7 to choose from in the last election.....was one of them yours daft punk? (statistically unlikely) We have a hundred to choose from. Spoiled for choice one might say.:thumbup1:

[Prinskaj]

It was to spread Socialism internationally no doubt.

I mean just look on what countries started calling themselves Communist because of Stalin.
Fix it for ya.

[Bostana]

Fix it for ya.

Thanks for Trolling

[seventeethdecember2016]

I wasgoing to type something, but then I realized a few self righteous Trotskyists had hijacked this thread with their false dilemmas.

Stalin wanted to build up countries that were added from the war so they'd be protected from a Capitalist restoration. That, and some Diplomatic tobogalling, were the main events of 1945.

[PhoenixAsh]

Thread closed.

Though the topic of USSR foreign policy immediately after WWII is interesting this thread is unfortunately formulated as and doomed to a sectarian subjective flame war.

If anybody wants to debate the topic honestly and openly I suggest a less passive aggressive thread on the matter.

thank you.