War and communism

[The Machine]

If communism is achieved, do you think war would continue to exist?
It seems like communists often argue that the end of class society will be then end of war, but war has existed throughout human history, even before class society. The rise of the state made it more prevalent, but the existence of war has been a constant through primitive communism, slave society, feudalism, and capitalism. War will continue to exist in communism, but obviously it will be different than it is today. I'm guessing it will be a lot more decentralized, similar to gang warfare or tribal warfare. War wont be able to be eliminated unless scarcity is, and even then I doubt violent conflict between humans will stop. Communism will bring about greater peace, bu the idea of world peace just because class society is abolished is idealistic.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

If communism is achieved, do you think war would continue to exist?
It seems like communists often argue that the end of class society will be then end of war, but war has existed throughout human history, even before class society. The rise of the state made it more prevalent, but the existence of war has been a constant through primitive communism, slave society, feudalism, and capitalism. War will continue to exist in communism, but obviously it will be different than it is today. I'm guessing it will be a lot more decentralized, similar to gang warfare or tribal warfare. War wont be able to be eliminated unless scarcity is, and even then I doubt violent conflict between humans will stop. Communism will bring about greater peace, bu the idea of world peace just because class society is abolished is idealistic.
War is fought over power and resources.

Gangs form around power and resources.

If you eliminate the causes of war, you eliminate war. It's hardly idealism. Nobody's going to pick up a shovel, grab their friends, and say "Let's go fuck up Town 2 and take all their shit" in a society that's eliminated scarcity and social class.

Although, it's certainly possible that in the transition period a few capitalist militias could spring up ....

Anyways, I'm not saying crime or anything will be eliminated completely, or violent conflict in general, but all out war and widespread gang violence (see modern drug cartels) will have no reason to exist.

[Ostrinski]

Of course there will still be violence but no war on a mass scale. There would be no reason for it. War existed in primitive communal societies for control of certain lands etc., of course this would be non-existent in advanced socialism. You assert that there will be war, yet don't specify what causes there will be for war, or what interest anyone would have in going to war.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

War is a reflection of the struggles between international ruling classes. Since in communism classes will no longer exist, why would wars also exist?

[Rafiq]

War didn't exist before class society. That's absurd.

There is a difference between wars and physical squabbles between small groups over something. War is very large scale and mobilizes large numbers of people

[TheGodlessUtopian]

As others have said: there is a difference between wars and the occasional squabble over farming lands. With abundance giving everyone all that they would need to live a productive and happy life there would be no reason for war,in its modern form,within a classless society (why would a emancipated working class willfully decide to shed blood with their brothers and sisters once the nation-state concept has been eliminated?)

[Ostrinski]

I can, on the other hand, see something of a war breaking out between team Lennon and team McCartney.

[Comrade Samuel]

Who's to say after hundreds and hundreds of years of communism we happen to stumble upon intelligent life? I guess we will leave that one to future generations. :D

with capitalism and reactionary thinking all but wiped from the face of the earth the need (and by "need" I mean bourgeois scum forceing the us to battle amongst eachother to further their own interest) to take up arms against one another shall cease to exist as well. Like the others said, there may be minor disagreements and such but without scarcity or a ruling class mankind will finally be able to put all of it's resources toward liveing full productive lives.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Who's to say after hundreds and hundreds of years of communism we happen to stumble upon intelligent life? I guess we will leave that one to future generations. :D

You know that is a very real possibility? I read the other day that there is an over 1%(!) chance of life in Our Galaxy Alone! Imagine, every hundred times you went to the store you saw an alien, this is how possible it is.

[lombas]

Since communism, once realised, means a stateless society, it would be impossible for wars to occur.

[lombas]

War didn't exist before class society. That's absurd.

There is a difference between wars and physical squabbles between small groups over something. War is very large scale and mobilizes large numbers of people

Well, some research doesn't agree with that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction_hypotheses#Rapid_extinction _by_violence

[OnlyCommunistYouKnow]

I can, on the other hand, see something of a war breaking out between team Lennon and team McCartney.

Don't forget the stalinists and trotskyists. Well maybe not war, but a very heated and never ending debate.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Well, some research doesn't agree with that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction_hypotheses#Rapid_extinction _by_violence
How exactly is one species of human subjugating and killing off another species of human outside the class society paradigm? I'm aware it would have occurred in what Marx considered "primitive communism", however that is irrelevant as animosity between the two groups can be considered a result of "informal" classes.

[Le Socialiste]

War has traditionally been fought over resources and the lands that provide them. As markets grew steadily over time, expanding and incorporating larger groups of people, warfare became more and more a priority - thus leading to greater, more extensive modernization efforts. Capitalism has only served to accelerate this process; its development around the further division of class and labor, as well as along existing racial, national, ethnical, religious, and regional lines, only increases the possibility of war. If you combat these things, if you eliminate capitalism, you stand to greatly reduce such risks.

[Astarte]

No, there would be no war under communism. I doubt there would even be any individual cases of violence either for that matter.

You cannot just say "oh, since there was some tribal violence under primitive communism in the future communist society there is bound to be war also" because it will be a qualitatively higher variety of communism.

Individual cases of violence would be eliminated as well since a large theme of the process of going from socialism to communism will be a change in human consciousness - the idea is to drive out the lower urge to dominance and violence which state and class society needs to survive.

Individual disputes, hopefully, will be met with such understanding and enlightenment that violence would not even be thought of as an option. And if violence did occur the rest of society, communally, would have to intervene to set the combatant parties straight in terms of educating them that that kind of behavior is what statism and class society thrived on in the past...

[ckaihatsu]

[T]he idea is to drive out the lower urge to dominance and violence which state and class society needs to survive.


Conservatives even implicitly acknowledge this whenever they make the rhetorical argument of "Well then what would motivate people to do *anything* in a communist system [without the existence of competition and ambition] -- ?"

Today's current elite would *rather* foist a social-Darwinian, biological-determinism worldview on everyone else so that we *think* dog-eat-dog is simply the only way of the world. But *any* of us knows that once the day's duties are done there *is* a social space that exists -- however fleeting -- where people are able to socialize relatively freely, outside the domain of politics, business, and work. With "better management" for the entire world's system everyone would have a hand in that co-management so that the rest of life could be its own thing *entirely*.