Is it Possible to Achieve a PERFECT Communist Scociety

[Bostana]

Well,

Do you think it' possible?

Not as in it's impossible to achieve a Communist society (a state maintained by the state) but that they're no mistakes that have been made.?

[Yefim Zverev]

The reason it is possible is that we are writing here

Communism is already perfection. You do not need to add perfect to it...

"Perfect communism" makes no sense logically.

[superborys]

It's not possible. Any perfect society is Utopian and impossible. The best, I think, we can achieve is a very-low crime rate society with equal wages, equal living conditions, and total egalitarianism.

[The Douche]

Even in communism there will still be crime and shit.

[Yefim Zverev]

Those who are here and claim that communism can not be achieved which is already perfect dialectical state (which is changing but change itself includes perfection) are not communists obviously.

Those who choose "No" are not communists because they contradict with themselves.

Let's see how many fake communists around we have by number of No's.

[Comrade Samuel]

I belive state socialism (which is what I think your referring to) is a vital and realistic step to oneday achieving world-wide communism. However to think there will ever be perfection is foolish greed, irrationality and overall imperfection are just part of human nature.

[Rooster]

I belive state socialism (which is what I think your referring to) is a vital and realistic step

The worst slave owners were the kinda ones.

As to a perfect communist future? I'm hopeful that we can sort out all of humanity's big problems but I'm not sure how successful we will be with the smaller ones. And the sooner the better.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I belive state socialism (which is what I think your referring to) is a vital and realistic step to oneday achieving world-wide communism. However to think there will ever be perfection is foolish, greed, irrationality and overall imperfection are just part of human nature.

State socialism will be what upholds the dictatorship of the proletariat. Once the bourgeoisie is destroyed as a class, the only class left will be the class of producers, the universal class, the proletariat. Once there is only one class left in the entire world, the state, money, and all class distinctions will cease to exist. All the people of the Earth will be organized as a free association of individuals. It will not be perfect because humans are not perfect, but it will be a lot like how people lived in prehistoric times before civilization, but with more technology and progressive ideals.

Oh, and am I the only one who believes that crimes in communism will be dealt with by the people with the use of popular justice, where the community does the justice and picks the punishments? The communities that pick the punishments will probably not be that partial because there will no money or class involved.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

The worst slave owners were the kinda ones.

You just never give up. You are really annoying and you are probably looking to start flame wars. You can say your opinion against Marxist-Leninists, but the way you do it and the way you do not back it up with anything pisses me off. Just stop writing one sentence bullshits that are only meant to make your utopian friends laugh and do not aid at all in the discussion.

[Rooster]

You just never give up. You are really annoying and you are probably looking to start flame wars. You can say your opinion against Marxist-Leninists, but the way you do it and the way you do not back it up with anything pisses me off. Just stop writing one sentence bullshits that are only meant to make your utopian friends laugh and do not aid at all in the discussion.

Oh? So is it not the case that the worst slave owners are the kind ones? :confused: Where are you refuting me in that paragraph? Is state socialism (the marxist-leninist term of wage labour, commodity production, etc) not the best of the slave owners? And utopian? The idea that you can change society through propaganda and a rejection of class struggle? Is a marxist-leninist seriously throwing that idea out as an insult? I hope you're being ironic. Incidentally, what do you think of the health care system and the unemployment benefits/pensions, of western capitalist countries?

[Tim Cornelis]

Those who are here and claim that communism can not be achieved which is already perfect dialectical state (which is changing but change itself includes perfection) are not communists obviously.

Those who choose "No" are not communists because they contradict with themselves.

Let's see how many fake communists around we have by number of No's.

The reason it is possible is that we are writing here

Communism is already perfection. You do not need to add perfect to it...

"Perfect communism" makes no sense logically.

^
this guy believes there will be no car crashes because communism will have perfect transportation :rolleyes:

[Leftsolidarity]

Well,

Do you think it' possible?

Not as in it's impossible to achieve a Communist society (a state maintained by the state) but that they're no mistakes that have been made.?

You aren't talking about communism

[robbo203]

State socialism will be what upholds the dictatorship of the proletariat. Once the bourgeoisie is destroyed as a class, the only class left will be the class of producers, the universal class, the proletariat. Once there is only one class left in the entire world, the state, money, and all class distinctions will cease to exist. All the people of the Earth will be organized as a free association of individuals. It will not be perfect because humans are not perfect, but it will be a lot like how people lived in prehistoric times before civilization, but with more technology and progressive ideals.


This is contradiction. You cannot "destroy" the bourgeosie without at the same time destroying the proletariat. The former only exist in relation to latter (and vice versa) as two sides of the same coin - as exploiters and exploited. Which, incidentally, is why the whole concept of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is completely unsound. It is nonsensical to talk of an exploited class dictating terms to the class that exploits it. If you are in a position to "dictate" to the exploiting class then you are in a position to get rid of them - and yourself - as an exploiting/exploited class. i dunno what Marx was thinking of when he came up with this crackpot idea. He was certainly not up to his usual standard of logical coherence, unfortunately.

There is no class "left over" when the bourgeosie and the proletariat disappear together over the horizon. All there is left is general humanity. Free at last.

[Yefim Zverev]

^
this guy believes there will be no car crashes because communism will have perfect transportation :rolleyes:

there will be no cars to crash

assuming there will still be cars even if a few of them would crash they can not harm perfection. they d be only part of it... the poverty of your imagination embarrasses me

you do not understand what perfect means...

[Tim Cornelis]

there will be no cars to crash

assuming there will still be cars even if a few of them would crash they can not harm perfection. they d be only part of it... the poverty of your imagination embarrasses me

you do not understand what perfect means...

... http://memeorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Are-You-Fucking-Kidding-Me-Rage-Face-Meme-Template-Blank-300x295.png

I know what perfect means, nothin' wrong with my imagination. But you are asserting that such a thing as perfect exists.

No disease, no fights, no conflict... perfect.

Wait, it would even mean there will be no aging.

[Ostrinski]

Perfection is a social construct. It doesn't exist, there is nothing to measure it by. Communism will be no more "perfect" than capitalism. It will simply be another epoch in history.

Edit: Can't wait to see how Rafiq responds to this idea of "perfect communism."

[Igor]

People born under communism will probably think it's nothing special. Some will hate it, there will still be crimes and for some people, life will stink. And probably at some point, the system will crumble under a revolution. I don't believe in any of that "end of history" bullshit nor should you.

[Zav]

Communism/Anarchy is not perfect, but it's the best plan we have. If you want to create a truly perfect society, short of killing everyone else you really can't.

[robbo203]

People born under communism will probably think it's nothing special. Some will hate it, there will still be crimes and for some people, life will stink. And probably at some point, the system will crumble under a revolution. I don't believe in any of that "end of history" bullshit nor should you.


So what are you trying to say here - that "probably" communisn will supereceded by some form of society that is not communism i.e. that entails some form of private or sectional ownership of the means of production?

"Probably" is a rather stronger and more definite term than "possibly" and, as such, necessites more in the way of an explanation . What kind of process do you have in mind that would induce people to abandon communism in favour of a class-based society? Are you suggesting there might be parallels between this and the emergence of class based societies in the first place and, if so, how would you support this claim?

[Ocean Seal]

Oh? So is it not the case that the worst slave owners are the kind ones? :confused: Where are you refuting me in that paragraph? Is state socialism (the marxist-leninist term of wage labour, commodity production, etc) not the best of the slave owners?
Where are the rich slaveowners of the Soviet Union or has slaveowner simply been an abstract in this case. Secondly you were replying to state socialism as an idea which doesn't preclude that the state would be the workers state.

And utopian? The idea that you can change society through propaganda and a rejection of class struggle? Is a marxist-leninist seriously throwing that idea out as an insult? I hope you're being ironic. Incidentally, what do you think of the health care system and the unemployment benefits/pensions, of western capitalist countries?
I don't think that there is a single ML on this forum who believes this.

[gorillafuck]

no, people would still treat eachother like shit.

[Per Levy]

Those who choose "No" are not communists because they contradict with themselves.

Let's see how many fake communists around we have by number of No's.

tbh, the people who choose yes are utopian. there is no perfect society, even under communism there will be mistakes and wrong decisions.

[Yefim Zverev]

tbh, the people who choose yes are utopian. there is no perfect society, even under communism there will be mistakes and wrong decisions.

communism is not static.. it is a continuous process which follows socialist revolutions upon states and class differences completely abolish..

it is a perfection in human life.. regarding.. any discipline.. science.. arts.. sports.. discovery of universe... it goes and on...

the process itself is perfect and communism is this process..

it is not an angelic paradise where everything ends in perfectness...

[Franz Fanonipants]

nothing perfect exists

[Erratus]

A lot of political actions are gambles, especially when it comes to what should be researched. What ideas will pan out into something great and which are duds are just as unknown to a communist society as to a capitalist world. Granted in that regard, a communist society would be a lot better in it would at least TRY to research the most useful things and not the most profitable. But that is not the point. There are also questions of when a threat rises to high enough levels to warrant extra resources, such as natural disasters. There wouldn't be any corrupt leaders hogging all of the resources, but even without that storms can be mistaken as a lot less dangerous than they really are.

So mistakes like that are bound to happen. Of course there will always be crime. Some people like to hurt other people just for the sake of hurting them. I think a lot of this depends on what you mean by "perfect" and "mistakes". Mistakes born out of the uncertainty of life cannot be eliminated, but mistakes caused corrupt leaders would likely be pretty well phased out.

[Yefim Zverev]

nothing perfect exists

true... at the moment...

but it is in our minds...

actually nature is perfect..

human intelligence has corrupted nature.. humans are like a virus killing all natural life...

humans will reach perfection when they will become one with the nature but still preserving the intelligence....

[Franz Fanonipants]

true... at the moment...

but it is in our minds...

nope. if it is in our minds it does not exist.

e: i could conceive of the existence of unicorns. they still do not and will not exist.

[Yefim Zverev]

nope. if it is in our minds it does not exist.

e: i could conceive of the existence of unicorns. they still do not and will not exist.

perfectness is an attitude we attach to objects with our poor intelligence...

we are far away from understanding nature and universe....

[daft punk]

Well,

Do you think it' possible?

Not as in it's impossible to achieve a Communist society (a state maintained by the state) but that they're no mistakes that have been made.?

In a communist society there would be no state.

""The state is not abolished, it withers away."
Engels


It's not possible. Any perfect society is Utopian and impossible. The best, I think, we can achieve is a very-low crime rate society with equal wages, equal living conditions, and total egalitarianism.

Also it would mean a big increase in living standards for most people. Everything would be free so you would never have to worry about healthcare, pensions, unemployment etc.

I think to most people that would be a perfect society.


Even in communism there will still be crime and shit.


No there wont. Not much anyway. Crime would be virtually zero. If there is no money, there is no basis for most crime. Plus, they way people think and act would radically change, for the better. Crimes like domestic violence would fade away for various reasons.

[daft punk]

tbh, the people who choose yes are utopian. there is no perfect society, even under communism there will be mistakes and wrong decisions.
Obviously if you wanna be picky with words, there is no such think as perfection. But if you offer communist to the average person their life would be 1 million times better, and most people would think of it as perfect.

Assuming it worked correctly, the only slight snag I can see it that it might get a bit boring. But stress free. Maybe people would do adventurous stuff to get a bit of that back in their lives.

However I for one would welcome not having to worry how I am gonna pay the bills each month.

[Yefim Zverev]

No there wont. Not much anyway. Crime would be virtually zero. If there is no money, there is no basis for most crime. Plus, they way people think and act would radically change, for the better. Crimes like domestic violence would fade away for various reasons.

I do not only agree this but I also want to give an example...

Let's say a man has killed another man under communism for the love of a girl... Can this be considered as a crime ?

Look at the animal world... Males may fight against each other and may even kill other in the process but nature life is still perfect...

But the term "crime" is almost always connected to private property.

Even I would say lovers heart would be much more healthy where private property does not exists...

Other than a lover's violence... I see no other reason for violence under communism which would oppose perfectness...

Even "LOVE" is like private property today... As if we own the people we love and marry... Our thinking will be much different under communism which we can not understand from our thinking right now.

[Ostrinski]

I do not only agree this but I also want to give an example...

Let's say a man has killed another man under communism for the love of a girl... Can this be considered as a crime ?

Look at the animal world... Males may fight against each other and may even kill other in the process but nature life is still perfect...

But the term "crime" is almost always connected to private property.

Even I would say lovers heart would be much more healthy where private property does not exists...

Other than a lover's violence... I see no other reason for violence under communism which would oppose perfectness...

Even "LOVE" is like private property today... As if we own the people we love and marry... Our thinking will be much different under communism which we can not understand from our thinking right now.Your ellipses are freaking me the hell out.

[Yefim Zverev]

Your ellipses are freaking me the hell out.

This is right. Yes it s a bad habit. Is also because of lack of my english sometimes I can't explain what I have in mind. Need to practice english more. Actually a reason why I am here too.

[daft punk]

"No there wont. Not much anyway. Crime would be virtually zero. If there is no money, there is no basis for most crime. Plus, they way people think and act would radically change, for the better. Crimes like domestic violence would fade away for various reasons. "

I do not only agree this but I also want to give an example...

Let's say a man has killed another man under communism for the love of a girl... Can this be considered as a crime ?



Yes, but it would be less likely to happen. The way people think will change. There will be less sexism, less macho pretence, less stress, women will not be commodified. Even the American Indians were cooler about stuff like that, divorce was often quite easy.




Even I would say lovers heart would be much more healthy where private property does not exists...

well there you go then.



Other than a lover's violence... I see no other reason for violence under communism which would oppose perfectness...

Even "LOVE" is like private property today... As if we own the people we love and marry... Our thinking will be much different under communism which we can not understand from our thinking right now.

hmm. now you seem to be agreeing with me! :)

[ckaihatsu]

People born under communism will probably think it's nothing special. Some will hate it, there will still be crimes and for some people, life will stink. And probably at some point, the system will crumble under a revolution. I don't believe in any of that "end of history" bullshit nor should you.


It's interesting to imagine what history *would* look like, without the barbaric drama of contending nation-states and the petty politics of court around in-the-spotlight bourgeois personages.

Perhaps much of the day-to-day would read like a dry government report, but no doubt there'd also be vibrant political discussions around how to use major natural and human resources, and what mass public projects would be worthy of large-scale efforts.

No one should think that it would be some kind of magical fantasyland, though -- it would be an "upgrade" of civilization, with daily life still containing work, economic decisions, leisure, culture, hobbyist pursuits, social activities, politics, etc.

[The Douche]

Not all crime is property related. There will still be "crime" in communism.

[Deicide]

What is this elusive, abstract, subjective thing 'perfect'? I've never seen one!

[Ostrinski]

This is right. Yes it s a bad habit. Is also because of lack of my english sometimes I can't explain what I have in mind. Need to practice english more. Actually a reason why I am here too.Sorry, I'm an ass

[ColonelCossack]

I wasn't going to vote but I accidentally clicked "Yes".

@OP, I don't really know.

[milkmiku]

Only if you manage to fundamentally change human nature. Which I'm sure many people here would have no problem with.

Man will always want power over others.

[daft punk]

Not all crime is property related. There will still be "crime" in communism.

Not much anyway. As I said, non-property crimes like domestic violence would decrease drastically to practically nil in a communist society. DV is related to sexism and stress.

This website seems to say stress doesnt come into it, but I think they are wrong
http://www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-articles.asp?section=00010001002200410001&itemid=1275

for instance DV increases in economic recessions. Fact. The stress of worrying about money can tip people over the edge.

The website is good though as it shows how DV is a learned behaviour, not something natural in humans.

as I say, the American Indians mostly had a relaxed attitude and didnt see wives as possessions like the white man did. It is a cultural thing to an extent that can be gradually unlearned.
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/history/indianmarriage.htm

[The Douche]

I agree, crime will be greatly reduced in communism, for a variety of reasons. But there will still be people who have mental disabilities which leave them predisposed towards anti-social behavior.

[Lanky Wanker]

Depends on what you mean by perfect. Making everyone's life effortless and beautiful, no. Making society run according to a particular set of economic and political ideas... I certainly hope so. Dear god, I hope so.

[Zav]

So what are you trying to say here - that "probably" communisn will supereceded by some form of society that is not communism i.e. that entails some form of private or sectional ownership of the means of production?

"Probably" is a rather stronger and more definite term than "possibly" and, as such, necessites more in the way of an explanation . What kind of process do you have in mind that would induce people to abandon communism in favour of a class-based society? Are you suggesting there might be parallels between this and the emergence of class based societies in the first place and, if so, how would you support this claim?
Perhaps the person meant that Communism will fall to a Betterist Revolution that we haven't thought of yet. It seems likely, as every other system has.

[Per Levy]

Obviously if you wanna be picky with words, there is no such think as perfection.

the op asked if a perfect society were there are no fayloures is possible, and the awnser to that is no. also words have meaning(see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect) and you cant just go around and say that perfect doesnt mean perfect.


However I for one would welcome not having to worry how I am gonna pay the bills each month.

you and pretty much everyone else on this planet.

[ckaihatsu]

Perhaps the person meant that Communism will fall to a Betterist Revolution that we haven't thought of yet. It seems likely, as every other system has.





the op asked if a perfect society were there are no fayloures is possible, and the awnser to that is no. also words have meaning(see http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perfect) and you cant just go around and say that perfect doesnt mean perfect.





However I for one would welcome not having to worry how I am gonna pay the bills each month.





you and pretty much everyone else on this planet.


I think it's easy to forget that a communist society would still necessarily be a *materialist* society, and that decisions would still have to be made over *material* properties (like land, industry, mass production, labor, resources, etc.)

Certainly the human condition would be immensely improved as a result of mass workers consciousness and a worldwide proletarian revolution, but it would *not* give rise to a shangri-la that excused everyone from societal participation over political matters.

Sure you wouldn't be under any *personal* duress, but politics *would* continue, and much -- possibly much *more* -- would be at stake, as a result of a *more*-integrated world economy. If the drama of politics is your framework, then successes and failures might be even *more* gargantuan, though realistically I'd imagine it'd be more of a *factional* matter, ultimately.

[MarxSchmarx]

Of course. Whether humanity achieves it or not, our entire struggle is predicated on this possibility.:)

[daft punk]

I agree, crime will be greatly reduced in communism, for a variety of reasons. But there will still be people who have mental disabilities which leave them predisposed towards anti-social behavior.

Do you mean mental disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder)? Or learning difficulty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_disability) (mental retardation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation))? Obviously quite a few criminals have one or the other, or both. Mental disorders are partly socially constructed so again would be less prevalent/severe in a communist society. For instance most serial killers are very religious. By the time we have communism we will have all the genes cracked anyway, and probably be able to treat some genetic causes. Learning difficulties does not cause crime but it does put people down at the bottom rung of society where decent jobs dont exist and poverty does, so clearly it can and does lead to crime, but again we can change that link and probably even cure or prevent most learning difficulty. Extra tuition would be a start. What is needed is looking after these people and giving them decent jobs.

85% of people in jail have learning disabilities

5% of violent crimes and 18% of murders and attempted murders are done by people with severe mental illness (disorder).

I once gatecrashed a criminology conference on mad or bad and was quite surprised that they seemed to conclude mostly bad. Personally I think most killers must be mad in some way, even if just for a short time. Ok so 19 out of 20 do not have a recognised disorder according to the professions, but who in their right mind kills someone?

[Igor]

So what are you trying to say here - that "probably" communisn will supereceded by some form of society that is not communism i.e. that entails some form of private or sectional ownership of the means of production?

"Probably" is a rather stronger and more definite term than "possibly" and, as such, necessites more in the way of an explanation . What kind of process do you have in mind that would induce people to abandon communism in favour of a class-based society? Are you suggesting there might be parallels between this and the emergence of class based societies in the first place and, if so, how would you support this claim?

I'm saying that none of us have no fucking idea about the future. What I do know, however, is that it'd be pretty pompous of us to assume that once the ruling class once goes down, we've reached the last stage of developing society, living in the happy smurf land for the rest of history.

[Rafiq]

Communism, if ever existing will be shit and it will suck. Just less than capitalism. It is because life is shit. But perhaps it will make life less shit. We will never know.

[ckaihatsu]

Couple things here:

- A better term to use here would be 'optimal', as in "Is it possible to achieve an *optimal* communist society?" The term implies that resource-usage is efficient in relation to resulting outputs (for a fully-humane social organization).

- No one should confuse macro-scale 'society' with personal-scale *life and living*.

[robbo203]

I'm saying that none of us have no fucking idea about the future. What I do know, however, is that it'd be pretty pompous of us to assume that once the ruling class once goes down, we've reached the last stage of developing society, living in the happy smurf land for the rest of history.

Nobody, and certainly not me, suggested that society would not continue to change evolve and develop after a communist revolution. However, the question is - on what basis? Why should it not do so on a continuing communistic basis? Why should it be assumed that communism rules out internal change and development?

Your claim that "probably" (your word ) a communist or classless society would be overthrown can only logically mean that you envisage the "probable" return of a class-based society since you can only logically have one or the other - a classless society or a class-based society - although, clearly, you might and can have different varieties of one or the other

Now I certainly dont rule out in an abstract sense the "possible" return to some form of class society after communism though i would not use the word "probable" in that regard for the reason given. However, what I was wanting to get from you was some idea of how you envisage it might "probably" happen that a communist society could revert to a class-based society. What are the likely factors that could cause this to happen?

I know full well we dont know the future - we dont even know whether communism will even happen let alone whether something else will "probably" replace it - but still that does not prevent us from speculating. And to be quite honest I am all for speculating. Speculation is a very fruitful way of clarifying one's own ideas