It's Not Possible.

[Lolumad273]

Tried arguing with Christian conservatives. Real hardcore reactionaries. It went very poorly. They kept saying that Communism would take from hard working people, and give it to people who don't work. They just chose not to understand what I was saying. The religion part.... seems that religion is designed to create classes. I just don't think it's possible to win an argument with reactionaries.

Have any of you guys won a debate with a reactionary? Where they actually said, "Gee, maybe I'd be more free under communism..."?

[Lanky Wanker]

It is possible, you just have to know what you're talking about and transfer it to their mind successfully (if they're willing to admit when you maybe have a point). Humans are hooked up with this "fuck you, I'm correct" idea which is stronger in some than in others, and it's just a matter of getting past that. From what I've seen it's x10 harder to get through to a conservative or centre-winger than it is to get through to a nazi. Conservatives aren't worth the time of day with all their anti-working class elitist bullshit, just look at someone like Cameron.

[#FF0000]

You don't usually change people's minds over the course of an argument.

i've definitely had discussions where people who were pretty conservative walked away with a better understanding, even though they still disagreed with me.

[gorillafuck]

It is possible, you just have to know what you're talking about and transfer it to their mind successfully (if they're willing to admit when you maybe have a point). Humans are hooked up with this "fuck you, I'm correct" idea which is stronger in some than in others, and it's just a matter of getting past that. From what I've seen it's x10 harder to get through to a conservative or centre-winger than it is to get through to a nazi. Conservatives aren't worth the time of day with all their anti-working class elitist bullshit, just look at someone like Cameron.conservatives are considered elitists in Britain?

that's way different from the US

[l'Enfermé]

It's hard to undo in one argument what has been done through decades of false education.

[Lolumad273]

I suppose what happened could be called a discussion. But conservatives in the U.S. are working class people who have been tricked into subordination... So I've seen.

I have had discussions with Ron Paul supporters who get something out of it. But I guess these former Glenn Beck viewers (since Beck got canned) are a lot more rigid. I think religion has a lot to do with it. They think their religion is part of their politics. I don't really understand it.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I suppose what happened could be called a discussion. But conservatives in the U.S. are working class people who have been tricked into subordination... So I've seen.

More or less, yeah, Decades of hysterical anti-communist propaganda have taken its toll on American consciousness.


I have had discussions with Ron Paul supporters who get something out of it. But I guess these former Glenn Beck viewers (since Beck got canned) are a lot more rigid. I think religion has a lot to do with it. They think their religion is part of their politics. I don't really understand it.

Glenn has his own television and radio station now; he is independent.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Have any of you guys won a debate with a reactionary? Where they actually said, "Gee, maybe I'd be more free under communism..."?

Generally no one "wins" debates, but if you argue clearly and with facts than what you can do is plant seeds and hopefully dispel some of delusions they have about subjects. When I have argued with reactionaries I always try and go for the clearest, most concise answer that addresses even the points that I know they will counter with.

[Lolumad273]

I knew of Glenn's radio show, didn't realize he was on TV again... I like to think he serves to de-legitimatize the right wing.

When starting a discussion I try to beat them to their questions, so to speak. I address the most common complaints first. I try to be as clear as possible, but these ideas can seem otherworldly to someone who hasn't been introduced to them.

[moulinrouge]

The material conditions are what made him a conservative and you don't change those with arguments.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

You usually won't be able to convince them that "Communism is great" but you can convince them of reformist ideas. I was able to get a hardcore Republican to agree that raising taxes on the rich was a good idea to help the American economy. I take the victories I can get, I guess...no matter how small:laugh:

[Dave B]

For communists, arguing with Christians should be a piece of piss, I have found it so anyway.

As Fred said, and Kauksy ‘followed’ him with a mighty tome on the same subject, the early christians were communists of a ‘merely’ metaphysical variety.eg

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894/early-christianity/index.htm

Give it to them to read anyway.

First of all I suppose you need to get tooled up by reading the gospel documents first, that doesn’t take long.

Acts is OK and includes the to each according to his needs and from each according to his ability quote.

Although you could argue they were just Anarcho Syndicalists.

Actually I think Celsum writing in the 2nd century accused, the obviously early christians, of being anti state and thus Anarchists.

It is in Origens material anyway ( a circa AD 220 christian theoretician and prohibited reading).

Celsum also thought it was hilarious that a demi god would come from the working class, the neo-platonists thought that the ‘Jewish’ god was just a local deity, outrageously promoted by nationalistic hubris.

Some of the other stuff in the new testament is OK, there is the rich will burn in hell stuff in James, but it is the Jesus stuff as well. The metaphysical equivalent of after the revolution (day of judgement) the capitalist class will put up against the wall and shot.

But only worse than that obviously.

Saint Paul as ex gestapo and a member of the rulling class was a ‘christian’ revisionist and as Stalin is to Marxism.

Apparently Benjamin Frankin, who was a clever bod, said the same thing.

They don’t like that at all!

Also plenty of stuff against organised religion and the priest class etc

[The Douche]

Keep in mind, when you approach a discussion/debate/argument with somebody who has already decided their position, that you are probably not going to change their mind. So look at the event as an opportunity to 1) learn what your opponent thinks so you can understand how to strengthen your argument in the future 2) learn how to best present your ideas in a clear, efficient, and approachable manner 3) convince observers of your ideas.

[Bostana]

Their answer to everything is,
"No Tax, Hate Blacks, Ignore Facts, and love Money"

[Lanky Wanker]

conservatives are considered elitists in Britain?

that's way different from the US

Well I don't know if that's the word I was looking for, but oh well. When they want to privatise everything and keep worker's wages as low as possible you can't help but think they favour the richer middle class families. A lot of cappies just follow the idea that anyone can get rich and capitalism gives everyone an equal chance (or can), whereas the tories are more of a simple "fuck you" to the people at the bottom. Care to explain how American conservatives flow?

[superborys]

Well strictly speaking, religion necessitates classes. There exist in pre-Schism religions (i.e. all Christian denominations, Muslims, and Jews outside of Protestantism) a priest class that leads the religion; a shepherd to lead his flock (or as some who are more sensitive might say, "congregation.")
To beat the dead horse, Marx said it best, "Religion is the opiate of the masses."

The masses get complacent with religion because it gives them a causeway out of the mundane. Now this isn't to say that all those who are religious are blind, just those who believe that religion should consume your life. So yeah, it is practically impossible to convince hardcore Christians that anything other than what their pastor/preacher/priest/reverend said and interpolated out of the Bible is correct.