Abrahamic Monotheism is the greatest obstacle in middle east

[Yefim Zverev]

Abrahamic Monotheism is the greatest obstacle in middle east against Marxists, communism, workers of middle east, global laborer movement.. etc. we the workers of world considered together.

It is about now !

It is certainly abrahamic monotheistic religions...

Islam as the most dominant. Secondly judaism.. third christianity... our approach to all these are equal as principle.... theocratic state of Israel, theocratic state of Iran and all others. All the different sects of Muslims fighting between each other.

Islam: an absolute mono mentalist totalitarian belief where every single aspect of life is organized by a holy book based on mythology (same for judaism) and ancient arabic traditions mixed with judaism. Forbidding revolt against ruling class and the islamic state. Forbidding strikes. Obvious inequality between sexes. 1000 different interpretation from different religious people total mess of metaphysics. Neverending religious arguments. A neverending bloodshed in the name of illusions and magic between different religions in the region. A total drug for poor people where elites of muslim dominant countries get the big share and exploit the working class to the bone.

Totally blinding.

Class war phenomenon is completely overshadowed by religious conflicts.

What can be done ?

Middle east is a complete mess. I am hopeless.

[Ostrinski]

I'd say the influence of Islam can be classified more as the outcome than the agent. The unique situation in the Middle East is what enables the strict influence of religion upon its citizenry.

[Yefim Zverev]

The unique situation in the Middle East is what enables the strict influence of religion upon its citizenry.

It's not about that religion is a consequence here. The question is not about that. The question is what can be done ? like Lenin asked.

Here it is about facts. The reality is out there, religions are imposed or not, people believe in them and their reactions are influenced by them against other political movements.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Class war phenomenon is completely overshadowed by religious conflicts.

umarxist bullshit

[ed miliband]

umarxist bullshit

just 'bullshit' would be sufficient tbh

[Franz Fanonipants]

just 'bullshit' would be sufficient tbh

its fair

[gorillafuck]

ridiculous. most of the middle east is not hardline Islamist states like some people would have you believe.

[Rafiq]

It's not about that religion is a consequence here. The question is not about that. The question is what can be done ? like Lenin asked.

Here it is about facts. The reality is out there, religions are imposed or not, people believe in them and their reactions are influenced by them against other political movements.

Religious fundamentalism was a direct result of economic destruction in the middle east. You cannot expect secular leftist groups when there isn't even a viable educational structure.

So instead of attacking the Offspring of a roach, attack the nest in which it came from. Then the roach can be liquidated. (Meaning, attack poverty, etc.)

[Yefim Zverev]

umarxist bullshit

convert it to marxist argument and so your comment in the thread has at least an educative value for me and others if I lack marxist knowledge about the specific matter. I have not perfect understanding of marxism and here you claim to have then share with us and I opened this thread in order to understand how marxism can be applied to the certain situation.

but instead of being constructive you are playing the boss to get some reputation around. :thumbdown:

was your comment a marxist attitude ?

a dialectical data ?


just 'bullshit' would be sufficient tbh

spammer

[Yefim Zverev]

ridiculous. most of the middle east is not hardline Islamist states like some people would have you believe.

it is about people.. not only states.. you don't even know how they are deeply into it.

[Franz Fanonipants]

convert it to marxist argument and so your comment in the thread has at least an educative value for me and others if I lack marxist knowledge about the specific matter.

its fair, and i apologize for not being clearer comrade.

to analyze it on a marxian level, you must remember that NOTHING is not about class struggle. even what you perceive as religious struggle. religion, which is nothing more than a set of ideas/epistemological tools that are derived from material analysis, is only a way of articulating class struggle.

there is no set value to religion. religion does not make the rich oppress the poor. it does not radicalize the poor. it can be used for both, but ultimately any solid analysis will find that the actors behind 'religious' conflict and violence are driven not by faith or unbelief but rather by class consciousness.

[eric922]

You know I've always thought that when dealing with religious societies a good course of action would be to try and find a way to use the religion to spread socialism like Liberation Theology was used in South America. After all, the enemy isn't religion, but capitalism.

[milkmiku]

You know I've always thought that when dealing with religious societies a good course of action would be to try and find a way to use the religion to spread socialism like Liberation Theology was used in South America. After all, the enemy isn't religion, but capitalism.

oddly enough, a lot of religions have socialist elements intertwined in them, then again, they also have the whole "kill those who disagree with you".

Dislodging religion from the middle east would take drastic actions, actions that would not be agreeable to anyone in the sane mind. What needs to happen is getting western influence out of the middle east, If it were not for the West nitpicking of the Mideast they would have modernized long ago.

Christianity modernized as did Judaism. Islam will never do so as long as the west interferes with the Arab nations.

[Ocean Seal]

Obstacles in the Middle East
Capitalism
Imperialism
Devastation by chronic military aggression from the west
Lack of infrastructure due to archaic class relations
Archaic class relations
Lack of socialized education
Poverty
Resource Curse

So you're telling me that religion is a bigger problem than all of these? Also please drop the orientalist bullshit. Its offensive. Islam is not a hive mind. Every conflict in areas where Islam is the dominant religion is not about Islam. I remember when westerners were saying that the conflicts in Uzbekistan were religiously fueled when they were about ethnicity. Muslim people think about more than Allah okay.


Islam: an absolute mono mentalist totalitarian belief where every single aspect of life is organized by a holy book based on mythology. 1000 different interpretation from different religious people total mess of metaphysics.
This is contradictory and silly.

[Yefim Zverev]

You know I've always thought that when dealing with religious societies a good course of action would be to try and find a way to use the religion to spread socialism like Liberation Theology was used in South America. After all, the enemy isn't religion, but capitalism.

At last a solution...

Do you talk about something like green islamic socialism ?

I don't think such are viable options... They were tried... Islam or any other religion can not work with socialism.

[Yefim Zverev]

oddly enough, a lot of religions have socialist elements intertwined in them, then again, they also have the whole "kill those who disagree with you".

Dislodging religion from the middle east would take drastic actions, actions that would not be agreeable to anyone in the sane mind. What needs to happen is getting western influence out of the middle east, If it were not for the West nitpicking of the Mideast they would have modernized long ago.

Christianity modernized as did Judaism. Islam will never do so as long as the west interferes with the Arab nations.

I don't agree with all these modernization stuff in religions. They are still deeply involved in politics all those organized religions. Islam can not be modernized all the rules of it comes from the holy book. You can not revise them. There are certain rules and which absolutely can not work with socialism.

Judaism is not universal. It favors only one nation. It's god says in torah I'll smite all nations with my hammer and my nation is jews. Here you go. Another fanatical belief. Israel is a theocratic state.

Christianity in all these three could be closest to socialism but yet it could not get rid of Old Testament and jewish traditions. In the new testament it is written love your enemy.. turn other cheek etc.. and look at christians... they have caused most deaths in total in earth. Maybe 1000 times more than others. All the never ending wars...

[milkmiku]

Islam or any other religion can not work with socialism.

Explain why? Reade the bible or the Talmud and one would conclude that neither religions could work in the modern world, yet there they are, working.

[eric922]

At last a solution...

Do you talk about something like green islamic socialism ?

I don't think such are viable options... They were tried... Islam or any other religion can not work with socialism.
Just because something has been tried before and didn't work doesn't' mean we should stop trying. We tried to build socialism last century, but the left didn't succeed, should we give up? No. You have a lot better chance of making religion work with socialism than you do of getting the majority of the working class to embrace atheism. It just isn't going to happen, the majority of working people are religious and by completely tying socialism to atheism we are fighting a losing battle. I'll freely admit I don't have the solution to the problem of religion and socialism, but I do think there could be one, and if we can find it, we would rob the ruling class of one of their greatest weapons. I mean a lot of religions have communal elements to them, there is likely a way to harness those elements, though like I said I don't have the solution, but that solution will likely come from a Muslim leftist and not from an agnostic like me.

[Yefim Zverev]

Explain why? Reade the bible or the Talmud and one would conclude that neither religions could work in the modern world, yet there they are, working.

Modern world = capitalism

Of course they are working... They are still doing their duties just as Marx said... Christianity in latin america... Islam in the middle east.. finest quality ophium... You don't even need to pay for them...

[milkmiku]

Israel is a theocratic state.
So? Not all practitioners of Judaism are Zionist. A portion oppose the state of Isreal.

[QUOTE=Yefim Zverev;2385685] they have caused most deaths in total in earth./QUOTE]
No, that'd be disease. You're generalizing as well. You are aware of Christian sects that disregard the OT? Pretty big ones at that.

I say again, in my opinion, the best thing for the middle east and Islam would be letting nature take it's course. Cut them off from the west and let them sort themslevs out. All the westren interferance in the mideast does is fuel their hatred of us. If we get out, then they will likely turn on those with power within their nations.

[eric922]

I don't agree with all these modernization stuff in religions. They are still deeply involved in politics all those organized religions. Islam can not be modernized all the rules of it comes from the holy book. You can not revise them. There are certain rules and which absolutely can not work with socialism.

Judaism is not universal. It favors only one nation. It's god says in torah I'll smite all nations with my hammer and my nation is jews. Here you go. Another fanatical belief. Israel is a theocratic state.

Christianity in all these three could be closest to socialism but yet it could not get rid of Old Testament and jewish traditions. In the new testament it is written love your enemy.. turn other cheek etc.. and look at christians... they have caused most deaths in total in earth. Maybe 1000 times more than others. All the never ending wars...
Yes, religion has been the justification for a lot of violence, but I question whether religion was the root cause of a lot of the violence done it its name.

Religion has proven very adaptable to new forms of class society, some such as Christianity emerged from slave societies and changed and evolved through Feudal and capitalist society. Compared to Hinduism, Christianity is brand new and yet Hinduism still endures in modern India as Shintoism does in Japan. Honestly, I'm not convinced that Marx and Engels were correct when they predicted a socialist society would render religion obsolete, I think it is very possible that religion will adapt and take a new form.

[Yefim Zverev]

You are aware of Christian sects that disregard the OT? Pretty big ones at that.


You're generalizing as well.

No I'm not... I do not only mean Christians have killed muslims or jews.. Christians have killed christians from the beginning...

If those sects are really believers to one God with limitless love and heaven. Why haven't they even tried to stop aggressive actions of other Christians. There has never been seen any concrete action to stop them. They should have gone to Iraq Afghanistan Libya and elsewhere and get meatshield formations. All the believers are hypocrites...

As much as the pacifism in a religion gets and you actually oppose it you become more hypocrite. Where in christianity pacifism must be in extremes in theory but they oppose it the most. Christianity died immediately when it was born because it was too good to live. And from that too good it has become the most hypocrite dominant belief.

At least Jews and Muslims are honest they behave according to their traditions.

Religions have fulfilled their times.

People still believe in this horror.

Think about the time wasted on reading holy books and if that time could be spent on reading philosophy. Humanity would have been elsewhere.

[Ostrinski]

One can be religious and a socialist, but religion as we know it cannot be systematically compatible with socialist revolution. That is not to say the socialist revolution is anti-religion, but it does seek to crush the bourgeois characterization of religion, i.e. organized religion in its present form.

Religion itself has nothing to do with the class struggle insofar as there is no intrinsic relationship between religion and the productive process. As common sense would dictate, the nature of the class struggle is qualified by the relationship between classes. It so follows that everywhere where industrial capitalism exists, i.e. most of the world, the class struggle is identical.

What is wrong with trying to relate religious beliefs to the class struggle, you say? For one, it is idealistic to put too much emphasis on ideology (religion is just an abstract form of ideology) as a foundation for class struggle. Ideologies are the results of certain states of affairs, not the determining factors of them. And by this we mean that any given ideology can only be evaluated on how relevant it is (what interests it addresses, how useful it is to a given class). Islamic socialism is a bourgeois conception of socialism that is based not in the bourgeois-proletarian struggle, but in ideal schemes of what socialism might look like with reference to the teachings of the Quran and Muhammad.

[Astarte]

Its interesting to note in Genesis 25:8-9 that after Abraham had expelled his son Ishmael and Ishmael's mother the concubine Hagar that Isaac and Ishmael actually reunited to bury Abraham when he expired...

Now, why is this pertinent? Because, theologically, according to Abrahamism the Muslims are descendants of Ishmael and the Jews and by extension, the Christians also, through the David to Jesus line, are both descendants of Isaac. Theologically, the war between Judeo-Christianity and Islam can be boiled down to a war between the descendants of two brothers from the same father but different mothers. Though still, after Ishmael had been banished by Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Ishmael came together later to peacefully bury their father Abraham...

To me the symbology of this verse theologically foreshadows the idea that the only way Judeo-Christianity and Islam can overcome their differences is by "burying Abraham", that is by negating Abrahamism.


8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full [of years]; and was gathered to his people.

9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which [is] before Mamre;

[Grenzer]

I never liked the whole concept behind the idea of the word "Judeo-Christian."

To me, it implies a connection that, in my opinion, frankly doesn't exist. Indeed, Christianity does borrow some Jewish texts, but when you compare the two religions in practice they aren't really anything alike. This has mainly been played up by unprincipled(not that I really care, but if you claim to be religious then it seems hypocritical) zionists in order to co-opt support of the evangelicals, at least in the American context.

Didn't mean to derail this much, but the idea that religion is somehow responsible for the state of affairs in the Middle East seems delusional. Ultimately it boils down toe economic factors, and what we are seeing is a reflection of that.

What's even more is that the problem doesn't seem to be with religion itself, but some of the people that believe in it. I don't really have a problem with religion and I don't think it's worth obsessing over, but I would agree with Brospierre that the idea that religion can somehow be co-opted as a tool to advance class struggle is dangerous. On this subject, I think it's comparable to the idea that nationalism can somehow be used as a tool to advance class struggle. It doesn't sound good in theory, and it doesn't work in practice.

[Devrim]

What needs to happen is getting western influence out of the middle east, If it were not for the West nitpicking of the Mideast they would have modernized long ago.

Christianity modernized as did Judaism. Islam will never do so as long as the west interferes with the Arab nations.

I think that the whole idea that Islam needs to modernize is very much in the tradition of 'orientalism'. When should Islam go through a similar process to the one that Christianity did?

Devrim

[Zostrianos]

Judaism is not universal. It favors only one nation. It's god says in torah I'll smite all nations with my hammer and my nation is jews. Here you go. Another fanatical belief. Israel is a theocratic state.


Israel is not a theocratic state. If it were, other religions in it would be curtailed or suppressed which is not the case. Nationalism and Zionist imperialism are the problem, as well as unconditional US support for whatever shit Israel wants to start in the region.

Also, out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, Judaism has a far better record than the other 2. Outside of Israel, Judaism has had a nearly spotless record of tolerance for other faiths - in spite of its exclusive stance, it never had any ambition to impose itself on the masses and forcibly convert the world, unlike organized Christianity and Islam. Most of the time when you look at history (again, outside of Israel), Jews just wanted to be left alone to live in peace, and were more often than not discriminated against and persecuted.

[Orlov]

The 'Middle East' doesn't need an external force to suppress it's belief in Islam. In fact, the reason that 'Marxist' forces have commonly done so horrible in Islamic societies with the classical hard-line anti-religious routine is due to them refusing to understand and work with Islamic culture in mind. The stance that seems to be present with this thought is the old the natives are savages routines and need to be trained to act properly. Until Islamic society and socialism are able to co-exist the ability to socialism to exist in an Islamic society will remain low.

[eric922]

The 'Middle East' doesn't need an external force to suppress it's belief in Islam. In fact, the reason that 'Marxist' forces have commonly done so horrible in Islamic societies with the classical hard-line anti-religious routine is due to them refusing to understand and work with Islamic culture in mind. The stance that seems to be present with this thought is the old the natives are savages routines and need to be trained to act properly. Until Islamic society and socialism are able to co-exist the ability to socialism to exist in an Islamic society will remain low.
I think you made a great point here. I've often thought that the hard line anti-religion stance taken by a lot of socialists often hurts socialism a lot.

[Hexen]

Actually it isn't just the Middle East that is deeply embedded with Abrahamic Monotheism (it's actually pretty obvious that it's the bedrock where it came from which is of course it's going to be embedded), it's also embedded in the west as well if you ever noticed (especially the U.S.).

[Franz Fanonipants]

Think about the time wasted on reading holy books and if that time could be spent on reading philosophy. Humanity would have been elsewhere.

religion is philosophy and vice versa

[Hexen]

religion is philosophy and vice versa

The "philosophy" behind Abrahamic Monotheism is all about control and try to justify class society itself.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The "philosophy" behind Abrahamic Monotheism is all about control and try to justify class society itself.

so is the philosophy behind buddhism.

the philosophy behind scientism.

the philosophy behind liberalism.

shit even leftcoms would tell you marxism-leninism is the philosophy of justifying soviet-style state capitalism or w/e the shit they talk about.

catch up sonn, you play mage: the ascension you should understand epistemes oh wait unless mage: the ascension is your main access to shit cus in which case welp

[Ostrinski]

Indeed. A philosophy can only be relevant if its underlying ideas are address the interests of a certain class. Which is what makes objectivism and libertarianism so laughably depressing.

[gorillafuck]

when people talk about how religious fundamentalism is because of the economic destruction of the middle east, it's still buying into the idea that everyone in the middle east is an islamist extremist....

[RedSonRising]

Modern world = capitalism

Of course they are working... They are still doing their duties just as Marx said... Christianity in latin america... Islam in the middle east.. finest quality ophium... You don't even need to pay for them...

Have you never heard of Liberation Theology in Latin America?

Hierarchical religious institutions are a product of capitalism that should be combated, but to dismiss cultures that embrace spiritual belief systems as inherently oppressive not only ignores history, but egotistically hampers the politicization process of the workers of the world towards concepts of proletarian liberation.

[Yefim Zverev]

religion is philosophy and vice versa


False.. Religion is dogmatic, philosophy is not. There is no belief in philosophy unless you choose a certain philosophy. It is a never ending study. You do not understand the concept of philosophy at all.

[Yefim Zverev]

Israel is not a theocratic state. If it were, other religions in it would be curtailed or suppressed which is not the case. Nationalism and Zionist imperialism are the problem, as well as unconditional US support for whatever shit Israel wants to start in the region.

Many many wrong points here

It does not prove that Israel is not theocratic because it does not suppress other religions. It is in the character of Judaism that the religion is identified with a certain nation or a group of people.

Israeli writer Gideon Levy in his Haaretz op-ed accuses the country of being a “semi-theocracy”, writing, “Between Stockholm and Tehran, Israel of 2009, with its many religious attributes, is closer to Tehran,” closing with “Let’s admit that we live in a country with many religious and halakhic attributes. Let’s remove the concocted secularist guise with which we have wrapped ourselves.” Others point out that Israeli citizens have diverse religions, even as the country only grants instant citizenship to Jews.

You tell me that Israel does not suppress Muslims in the country ? Do I read wrong ? Explain why inch by inch Muslim families are removed from the region and instead Jews are colonizing the land. Is it done by a couple of Jews ? Or is that a state ideology ? (bzw another theocratic element)




Also, out of the 3 Abrahamic faiths, Judaism has a far better record than the other 2. Outside of Israel, Judaism has had a nearly spotless record of tolerance for other faiths - in spite of its exclusive stance, it never had any ambition to impose itself on the masses and forcibly convert the world, unlike organized Christianity and Islam. Most of the time when you look at history (again, outside of Israel),

You can not compare Christianity and Islam against Judaism in this particular matter because Judaism has an unique attribute that it is attached to a certain group of people. So what you tell here makes no sense.


Jews just wanted to be left alone to live in peace, and were more often than not discriminated against and persecuted.

History is history and today is today. Now what are they doing ? They stole peace in the middle east.

Those are empty words.

So many films books and jews how they suffered etc. and it makes a good excuse for them to commit a systematic genocide ? Come on...

[Franz Fanonipants]

False.. Religion is dogmatic, philosophy is not.

what the fuck is it with these liberals on revleft being so fucking addicted to the tyranny of the mind?

religion has no qualities inherent to itself except as it is practiced in material circumstances.

early islam, for example, had pretty much 0 problems with including people as diverse as zoroastrians and buddhists in its people of the book category.

religions do not "behave" on their own.

[Yefim Zverev]

what the fuck is it with these liberals on revleft being so fucking addicted to the tyranny of the mind?

religion has no qualities inherent to itself except as it is practiced in material circumstances.

early islam, for example, had pretty much 0 problems with including people as diverse as zoroastrians and buddhists in its people of the book category.

religions do not "behave" on their own.

Sorry you lost... religion and philosophy are completely 2 different entities... If we can not define meaning of simple words and separate them from each other this makes conversation completely impossible. Like rowing in the air and flaming against each other.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Sorry you lost... religion and philosophy are completely 2 different entities... If we can not define meaning of simple words and separate them from each other this makes conversation completely impossible. Like rowing in the air and flaming against each other.

i only lost because you decided to make the arbitrary distinction of "dogmatism"

religion is a philosophy on the soul, death, etc. i am fucking amazed that you just declared yourself the winner rather than trying to actually discuss anything.

don't be a fucking sophist.

[Yefim Zverev]

i only lost because you decided to make the arbitrary distinction of "dogmatism"

religion is a philosophy on the soul, death, etc. i am fucking amazed that you just declared yourself the winner rather than trying to actually discuss anything.

don't be a fucking sophist.

No it was irony. Because you were the first to flame. If you wanted to understand my idea I am sure you would not oppose it but I sense that you have an instinct of opposing something in the first place rather than trying to understand what is meant.

Let's return to my words what you opposed:


Think about the time wasted on reading holy books and if that time could be spent on reading philosophy. Humanity would have been elsewhere.

Many countries in the middle east do not have any philosophy classes at all. If they have they are not enough. They only get to know their religion and a limited philosophical part of it if any. But this can not be count as philosophy because like the word tells philosophy is love of knowledge.

They are educated under a monomentalist dogmatic mentality not only in schools but also by families. I have witnessed that. I do not talk without certain experience about this... Families make many children memorise Koran even if they do not understand it and they wish that these children worship the words.

They have no idea about philosophies of west which has led to dialectical materialism and further but also they do not have any opinion of other beliefs of the world too like far eastern etc.

Even on the Koran itself they can not make a philosophy because they do not know any philosophical notions. They only know elements of Koran. They can not be critical on it because there is no dialectic around. No other knowledge to oppose it.

Philosophy is also a large area with different sub-divisions like religion philosophy, language philosophy etc. where it is not limited by anything.

This can not be explained only by not having economical basis for it. Many of these children are able to reach philosophy books which are sold in stores but they just do not want to do it. They are so confident with their beliefs because they are easy and they calm them.

And because of this they also do not make any criticism of the system because they say if we are poor it is in our fate. Allah chose us to be poor. And we need to thank to him for all we got even it is less..

This is the mentality and I know it too well.

[Franz Fanonipants]

This is the mentality and I know it too well.

while i "understand" your experiences and position, i think you're worshiping philosophy.

westerners have the ability to be secular beings. yet there is no liberation in the west. it is not a question of liberal access to ideas or freedom of thought.

it is a question of focusing on class struggle, that can be articulated without marxism and western philosophy, but you are right in that teaching marxism would be helpful.

[Yefim Zverev]

while i "understand" your experiences and position, i think you're worshiping philosophy.

westerners have the ability to be secular beings. yet there is no liberation in the west. it is not a question of liberal access to ideas or freedom of thought.

it is a question of focusing on class struggle, that can be articulated without marxism and western philosophy, but you are right in that teaching marxism would be helpful.

Of course it is a question of focusing on class struggle but most of these people have never even heard what is called "a class" "or a class struggle" even if they do it is very foreign to them. They are so much used to think everything in categories of fate.

In order to understand Marxism we have to understand thoughts and philosophies prior to it. Because if we do not understand them we can not understand Marxism. If we can not understand Marxism and still draw people into a revolution who have no understanding of Marxism a bit. It will be an Islamic Jihad rather than a Marxist revolution and its fruits will die immediately.

Also:

Look at Palestina how a religious group called HAMAS stole the struggle of Al-Fatah.

How was the revolution which was meant to be done by communists in Iran was so easily hijacked by Islamist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

How was the revolution which was meant to be done by communists in Iran was so easily hijacked by Islamist.

the bazaaris, which only continues the bigger point. a bourgeois class overrode a people's revolution.

and i don't think you're giving the Islamic working classes enough credit. "fatalism" as a cultural force has its limits, and i bet you most proletarian muslims are more aware of class differences than you'd like to believe.

[Astarte]

The problem of Abrahamism is also reinforced by the problem of nation states - how will the devout Jewish, Christian and Islamic proletarians ever find the cultural ability to come together in the Middle East against capitalism as long as they are divided by way of the fundamentalist interpretations of their own similar but slightly different Books?

I say its also a problem of nation states since even the Muslim populations in the region are divided between two major poles - the Shiite one centered in Iran and the Sunni one centered out of Saudi Arabia.

In an above post I mentioned that the solution rests in negating "Abrahamism" as a whole, but this outlook has always been Utopian where ever class and state society prevail - statists will always look to the fundamentalists to dupe the people into blaming "The Other", be they of another religion or nationality.

The only hope is for secularism to deal with these religious sentiments in a way that stresses the theological similarities of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and for that matter ALL spiritual systems, rather than the fundamentalist perspective of stressing differences, or the atheistic one of pretending they do not exist, or pretending they can be solved by simply tossing them down the memory-hole.

It was thought that in Yugoslavia Tito ameliorated the problem of nationalities until he died and the whole system imploded, and once again the various ethnic groups were at each other's throats. In Iraq, likewise there was peace for a long time between Sunnis and Shiites, but once the state that was enforcing order between them was gone, things once again fell apart.

So, my point is, yes, the main problem is living standards and the kind of life of struggle that capitalism makes people lead, but the distrust and tension between the Abrahamic religions stretches back thousands of years beyond capitalism or even feudalism - it is a problem of Religion and The State itself - the negation of the sects of Abrahamism can only occur with democratic socialism in conjunct with education that does not simply atheistically suppress all theology, but espouses a kind of secular "socialist theology" under a democratically planned economy which will be sensitive to the religions in the Middle East that people there hold so dear that they are willing to die for.

Take away the desperation of class society, and accent similarities in a "theological language" that followers of the religions can understand, and maybe then there will be an answer.

[Hexen]

The problem of Abrahamism is also reinforced by the problem of nation states - how will the devout Jewish, Christian and Islamic proletarians ever find the cultural ability to come together in the Middle East against capitalism as long as they are divided by way of the fundamentalist interpretations of their own similar but slightly different Books?

More and more, I also starting to realize that Religion is simply also a divide & conquer strategy much like nationalism, racism, sexism, etc.

[Yefim Zverev]

The problem of Abrahamism is also reinforced by the problem of nation states - how will the devout Jewish, Christian and Islamic proletarians ever find the cultural ability to come together in the Middle East against capitalism as long as they are divided by way of the fundamentalist interpretations of their own similar but slightly different Books?

It is impossible unless they all give up religion. That is what I am talking about here all the time. Religions are not universal. Class struggle is universal. Religions are obstacle.

Quoting myself from my thread opening post...


A neverending bloodshed in the name of illusions and magic between different religions in the region.

[Klaatu]

In my own opinion, I don't think Middle-East Islam is the problem, like Fox News thinks.

I think the major problem there is Western imperialism, lack of education, and poverty.

Mostly Western imperialism.

[Philosopher Jay]

Yes, Klaatu,

I agree. The problem isn't Islam or Judaism or Christianity in the Middle-East. The problem is that oil is needed throughout the world to run the cars that keep the capitalist economies running. This makes the Middle East a target for capitalist imperialism.
Islamic ideology was dying throughout the world in the 1800's. It was only revived by the countless trillions of dollars that capitalists paid for the oil. All of it going to Islamic practitioners dedicated to the almightly Allah - the buck.

When the oil runs dry in 40-50 years, Islam will disappear and so will Israel and the Christian interest in the "Holy Land."




In my own opinion, I don't think Middle-East Islam is the problem, like Fox News thinks.

I think the major problem there is Western imperialism, lack of education, and poverty.

Mostly Western imperialism.

[Yefim Zverev]

In my own opinion, I don't think Middle-East Islam is the problem, like Fox News thinks.

I think the major problem there is Western imperialism, lack of education, and poverty.

Mostly Western imperialism.

Here it is not about Islam...

All abrahamic religions are opposed.. Their inner conflicts and their conflicts between them each other are opposed. Peace between them is impossible. They all must be abolished.


When the oil runs dry in 40-50 years, Islam will disappear and so will Israel and the Christian interest in the "Holy Land."

Religions were there even before oil was discovered in huge quantities and got industry use. This is no argument.

[milkmiku]

When the oil runs dry in 40-50 years,
it is the oil lobby and AIPAC that keeps us in the middle east. America has enough oil in her own boarders. If or when the oil dries up, another reason will be manufactured to keep us there.

[milkmiku]

Yefim, you are under the assumption that following a religion automatically makes you an extremist. Extremist are the minority, juts like with political Ideology. should Marxism be destroyed because people committed heinous acts under it's banner?

You must realize that religion has contributed much good to the world and continues to do so, despite the extremist.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses" but an opiate is not an evil or negative thing in and of itself, they can be used to dull the pain while one recovers or goes through a painful treatment.

Once mankind works out its flaws, religion will fade away.

[Franz Fanonipants]

More and more, I also starting to realize that Religion is simply also a divide & conquer strategy much like nationalism, racism, sexism, etc.

religion does not have any given essential component to it comrade

[Zostrianos]

You tell me that Israel does not suppress Muslims in the country ? Do I read wrong ? Explain why inch by inch Muslim families are removed from the region and instead Jews are colonizing the land. Is it done by a couple of Jews ? Or is that a state ideology ? (bzw another theocratic element)

I don't see that as a theocracy. I agree,, it's dangerously close to it, but Israel is more like America, both of them having a huge percentage of religious fanatics who are trying to push for a theocratic state. As for the repression of muslims, I see it more as the fact that Judaism is associated with the Israelis, and Islam with the Palestinians, and thus the progressive takeover is motivated by Israel's imperialist desire to deprive Palestinians of their land, not necessarily by theocratic aspirations.


So many films books and jews how they suffered etc. and it makes a good excuse for them to commit a systematic genocide ? Come on...

I never said that. In fact I find it disgusting when the Israeli government compares itself to the Jewish suffering during the Holocaust, making themselves victims when they're the aggressors, and insulting the memory of victims of the Holocaust by putting themselves in their place, and using them as an excuse to commit countless crimes. It's the same thing fundamentalist Christians do when they get criticized for their actions: "Stop persecuting us!". In Israel's case, however, the main factor is nationalistic, not religious.