Anarchists campaigning to free a nationalist from prison

[Искра]

LOLZ
http://www.wsm.ie/c/belfast-public-meeting-demand-release-marian-price

[PhoenixAsh]

what exactly is lol about this?

or does your revolutionary ideology only count when it is revolutionaries in prison without trial and under inhumane circumstances?

[Искра]

So Croatian anarchists should campaign for Ante Gotovina? :)

[Ostrinski]

fuck humanism

[bcbm]

empty the prisons

[Krano]

empty the prisons
Would you be willing to let them stay in your house momentarily while they build there life back up? you know the rapists,child molestors,murderers and all the good folk out there.

[RedAnarchist]

We cannot be hypocrites when it comes to the government. We either oppose all inhumane acts by the government, or none at all.

[bcbm]

Would you be willing to let them stay in your house momentarily while they build there life back up? you know the rapists,child molestors,murderers and all the good folk out there.

probably would be better than having them locked in a cage and treated like animals. it doesn't take much to figure out that most prison systems in the world are fucked and do nothing to improve society. the most successful ones are usually the ones that look the least like prison

[Os Cangaceiros]

Anarchist groups do stuff like this a lot. Anarchist Black Cross in the USA does support work for people who were in groups like the Japanese Red Army and the Black Liberation Army/BPP, for example.

Also, it may be worth noting that WSM is a platformist group, and some people in such groups are "anarcho-trots" :lol: People like Andrew Flood, who wrote kind of a ridiculous piece about Libya a while back, which came puurrr-iiiitty close to advocating the intervention of NATO, albeit for "strategic purposes" or some such nonsense. Maybe that would've made sense coming from another perspective, but certainly not an anarchist one.

[Paulappaul]

AS a Left Com aganist National Liberation, and nationalism all together, I still don't see a problem with this. Prison is fucked, and I don't see many circumstances, if any, where it is justified.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Would you be willing to let them stay in your house momentarily while they build there life back up? you know the rapists,child molestors,murderers and all the good folk out there. I'd be ok with that, so long as you'd agree to let the guards stay at yours.

[blake 3:17]

The detention of IRA veteran Marian Price harks back to internment
The facts around Price's detention suggest she is being held not for any crime, but from a belief the state is better off without her

Eamonn McCann
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 18 January 2012 11.07 GMT
larger | smaller
Article history
Today, parole commissioners for Northern Ireland will decide whether to order the release of the IRA veteran Marian Price from Maghaberry prison. The 57-year-old has been held since last May, when the Northern Ireland secretary, Owen Patterson, signed an order revoking her licence.

Her detention has been a scandal. Price has been effectively held in solitary as the only female in the high-security prison, charged with encouraging support for an illegal organisation. The charge arose from an Easter Rising commemoration in Derry organised by the 32-county sovereignty movement – widely regarded as the political voice of the Real IRA – during which she held up the script from which a masked man read the Real IRA's "Easter message".

Price was one of nine IRA volunteers sentenced to life for planting four bombs in London, including one at the Old Bailey, in March 1973. Around 180 people were injured, mainly by flying glass. One man died from a heart attack. The bombing party included Gerry Kelly, now a Sinn Féin minister at Stormont, and Price's older sister, Dolours.

Price was freed in 1980 suffering from tuberculosis and anorexia and weighing around five stone. Her lawyers insist that her release was based on a royal pardon, which would mean that Patterson had no legal power to order her detention. His intervention amounted to an egregious abuse reminiscent of internment, they say. However, Patterson's lawyers say that "extensive searches" have failed to locate the crucial document. A copy destroyed in 2010, they have told the parole commissioners, turns out to have been the only copy that existed, so its exact terms cannot be established. But, they add, the "surrounding circumstances" of 1980 suggest that Price was not pardoned but conditionally released.

Many are surprised that British authorities have not been able to come up with a stronger case. Price's lawyers, Kevin Winters and Co, told the commissioners in a submission on 4 January: "It is difficult to fathom how, even exercising a modicum of care, this document was destroyed without someone, before destruction, ensuring that the original (or at least another copy) was still in existence … There is certainly a foundation for suggesting that the document may (and we can put it no higher) have been deliberately 'buried' given the embarrassment it might cause."

In court in Derry two days after her detention last year, despite strenuous prosecution objections, she was granted bail, then immediately rearrested under an order signed the previous evening. Her bail application had thus been made meaningless by Patterson's advance arrangement to trump the court's decision if it went against the state's wishes.

In the high-security jail where she is being held, Price was further charged last July with "providing property for the purposes of terrorism" – connected to the trial for the killing of two soldiers outside Massereene barracks in Antrim in March 2009.

Price had been questioned for two days about this allegation in November 2009 and released without charge. There was no change in circumstances in the interim and no new evidence offered. Again, over the objections of the state, she was given bail and, again, returned to prison. It seems at the least a reasonable suspicion that the new charge was designed to pre-empt the planned challenge to Patterson's authority.

On Monday, Price appeared at Belfast magistrates court on the same charge and was returned for trial. Again, despite bail having been given on the charge in July, she was taken back to prison.

The facts of Price's detention, taken together, suggest she is being held indefinitely not because there is evidence that she is guilty of serious crime, but because the Northern Ireland Office believes the state is better off with her out of the way – that, in everyday language, she is in internment. We thought we were done with that in Northern Ireland. Marian Price should be freed forthwith.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

So many utopian ultra-leftists here who cry out inhumanity and can only think about fixing the problem by emptying out all the prisons. Clever idea. Whatcha gonna do next, empty the zoo and let the animals run free in the city?

[Crux]

So Croatian anarchists should campaign for Ante Gotovina? :)
How is that even comparable?


So many utopian ultra-leftist who cry out inhumanity and can only think about fixing the problem by emptying out all the prisons. Clever idea. Whatcha gonna do next, empty the zoo and let the animals run free in the city?
Ugh. I've always gotten a reactionary vibe from you.

[blake 3:17]

So many utopian ultra-leftist who cry out inhumanity and can only think about fixing the problem by emptying out all the prisons. Clever idea. Whatcha gonna do next, empty the zoo and let the animals run free in the city?

The vast majority of people in prisons shouldn`t be there in the first place. They are there because they are poor. Most are in for minor property and drug offences. Violent offenders should be treated on a case by case basis.

An extremely small number of people are genuine dangers to society (eg. serial killers) and should be detained in the most humane conditions possible.

I`m not seeing the LOLZ here.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Ugh. I've always gotten a reactionary vibe from you.

Nope. I'm not reactionary, I just have a brain that does not get drowned by utopian ideals.

[NewLeft]

Nope. I'm not reactionary, I just have a brain that does not get drowned by utopian ideals.
Prison abolishment is not 'utopian,' it is a necessity to eliminate class.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Prison abolishment is not 'utopian,' it is a necessity to eliminate class.

We must not abolish prisons during capitalism or socialism, but everyone knows prisons will be abolished by the time communism comes along.

[Ostrinski]

some people in such groups are "anarcho-trots"Anarcho-Trots...
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRC9WDCrypZKyRF0oQmRj84JLdY4Nwd_ kZwfdZxUwqIJgEZt2trJg



Anarcho-Trots...
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

[Ostrinski]

We must not abolish prisons during capitalism or socialism, but everyone knows prisons will be abolished by the time communism comes along.Have fun while we drain them.

[Dragonaut]

While I identify as an "ultra leftist" is many respects, I think it's ridiculous not to support someone who is being unjustly detained, whether they hold my beliefs or not. While I don't support nationalism or national liberation, there are certain points where I have to look past sectarianism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

re: anarcho trots

It's usually a pejorative used against anyone with a brain by neanderthal Stalinists, but I find it somewhat helpful in labelling certain platformists who give some degree of support to national liberation movements, some of whom (namely Wayne Price) actually came to anarchism from Trotskyism. :sleep:

[Ostrinski]

Might as well just become an Italian school leftcom

[Crux]

Nope. I'm not reactionary, I just have a brain that does not get drowned by utopian ideals.
Utopian ideals like socialism? Am I confusing you with someone else or are you the same person who had hand-wringingly reformists attitudes to the syrian and chinese regime respectively? If so, I think it's fair to say I am starting to see a pattern.
So why did you feel so inclined to express your love of prisons in a thread on a political prisoner?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Utopian ideals like socialism? Am I confusing you with someone else or are you the same person who had hand-wringingly reformists attitudes to the syrian and chinese regime respectively? If so, I think it's fair to say I am starting to see a pattern.
So why did you feel so inclined to express your love of prisons in a thread on a political prisoner?

Prisons are not great, but essential to society. And about the Syria thing, I prefer the reformist path because, as John McCain demonstrated recently, the NATO bloc is itching to support the opposition and begin an imperialist onslaught against Syria, which would kill more people than the government ever will. With China, I believe in the reformist path because no worker's uprising in that nation will ever be brought about to increase socialism, but only to finish the process began by the CPC of returning to capitalism.

[Crux]

Prisons are not great, but essential to society. I prefer the reformist path I believe in the reformist path.
well, thanks for the honesty I suppose, it's a more open admission than I've gotten from some of those who share your position on these issues. As for prisons I think it is far more complicated than that, first let's just establish the following: crime has social roots, the law is written by and for the rich, the courts, prisons and police force are essentially further tools of the ruling class, in fact they are the hard core of the capitalist class state. Makes it a bit more complex than "there is crime, therefore we need prisons" doesn't it?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

well, thanks for the honesty I suppose, it's a more open admission than I've gotten from some of those who share your position on these issues. As for prisons I think it is far more complicated than that, first let's just establish the following: crime has social roots, the law is written by and for the rich, the courts, prisons and police force are essentially further tools of the ruling class, in fact they are the hard core of the capitalist class state. Makes it a bit more complex than "there is crime, therefore we need prisons" doesn't it?

The way you quoted everything out of context made me lol. And btw, in normal circumstances I would have given you this long argument that did not use the word "reformist," but I did not feel like it because I am writing all this from my iPhone.

[Искра]

Even we are all against prisons I don't think that political groups (lets say - anarchists, for sake of this thread) go and make campaings for every person who is arrested for no reasons or on false accusations etc. I think that we can agree that in most of the countries prisons are full, but I don't see campaings for such people.

Problem with action is that it is a campaign for liberation of nationalist activist which actually represents WSM's support of Irish nationalist politics for which it is well known. They didn't started to make a campaign for a random person locked under false accusations but for IRA activist, so argument "free all" failed here.

Discussing "prison fetish" which some users have is fucking pointless to discuss.

[Ravachol]

So Croatian anarchists should campaign for Ante Gotovina? :)

I'm as much of an anti-nationalist as anyone and I don't support national liberation struggles but comparing a RIRA members to Ante Gotovina is a bit much, honestly. Sure she's a nationalist in the sense that she struggles to unify people under the banner of a national construct and in that's not exactly a communist position to say the least, but that still differs from spearheading Oluja :p Besides, there's plenty of self-described anarchist who subscribe to position which are equally dodgy, whether liberal or anti-proletarian. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be a support campaign for them. Not every antifascist is a clear class struggle antifascist and some of them simply extend liberal democracy, but if they end up in jail as a result of that fight they still got my support. The same goes for Marxist-Leninist groups and their armed struggle prisoners. I don't think ML has anything to offer the proletariat really but that doesn't mean I wanna see them rot in jail, on the contrary.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Would you be willing to let them stay in your house momentarily while they build there life back up? you know the rapists,child molestors,murderers and all the good folk out there.


I think most of us would be safe with with the child molestors, those who are over 18 at least...we might have to watch the other ones.
No need to go into the 'punishment vs rehab' debate here, it's been covered I'm sure and will be again on another thread.

If a government inflicts unjust imprisonment, torture or any other inhumane act on anyone, it must be condemned. Even if your worst enemy is getting water-boarded, the sane and decent thing is to decry it...I think.

[l'Enfermé]

This woman blew up innocent civilians didn't she? If she did I wouldn't mind if they execute her.

[l'Enfermé]

Of yeah she's a terrorist that killed innocent people...it's very surprising that anarchists are defending her. On second thought, it's not surpising at all. Anarchists, after all, are anarchists.

[The Douche]

This woman blew up innocent civilians didn't she? If she did I wouldn't mind if they execute her.

You support executions by the bourgeois state?


What the actual fuck is going on this thread? "Forward comrades, to a socialist future of gulags and firing squads!"...

[CommunityBeliever]

Prisons are a primitive institution, so we should gradually replace them with home confinement. With GPS tracking, brain implants, cameras, and other modern technologies we can prevent even the worst criminals from leaving home.


Would you be willing to let them stay in your house momentarily while they build there life back up? you know the rapists,child molestors,murderers and all the good folk out there.

It is already expensive to maintain prisons for rapists, child molesters, and murders. Replacing all prisons with electronic monitoring is an economical option.


Clever idea. Whatcha gonna do next, empty the zoo and let the animals run free in the city?

With brain implants we can even make non-human animals model citizens. This has already been demonstrated on rats and insects (http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?albumid=772).

[Crux]

Of yeah she's a terrorist that killed innocent people...it's very surprising that anarchists are defending her. On second thought, it's not surpising at all. Anarchists, after all, are anarchists.

uh she was subject to torture and developed anorexia nervosa while in prison, weighting 5 stone when she was pardoned in 1980 . She is currently being subjected to torture without even being properly charged with a crime. A question of basic legal rights. Now I do not defend the PIRA or the RIRA in any way shape or form. But cheering on the state as they torture a political prisoner...? C'mon.

[Midgley]

Can I offer a local perspective here, the RIRA and most nationalist 'dissident' groups are confusionists, they claim to be left wing/socialist or even revolutionary, when they are in fact far right/sectarian and racist (much like 90% of the Provisionals were) They label non Catholics as "black bastards" and boast of their "pure gaelic blood" and of how they will drive out the "planters" and send them "back to England". Even so, I cannot condone interment without trial, nor am I a supporter of the prison system. But if this is about unfair treatment by the government, and not about anarchists supporting extreme nationalists like Price, why did they not campaign for the release of any of the Loyalists who had their 'early liscense' revoked??

[Искра]

What the actual fuck is going on this thread? "Forward comrades, to a socialist future of gulags and firing squads!"...Yeah, this thread become fucked up. There's a lot of ways to discuss suport to nationalist which doesn't have to include "prison fetish" some people here have. You can't fight bourgeuise with their methods.

[arilando]

Prisons are a primitive institution, so we should gradually replace them with home confinement. With GPS tracking, brain implants.
Just to be clear here, you arent supporting that we force criminials to get brain implants, right?

[Crux]

Yeah, this thread become fucked up. There's a lot of ways to discuss suport to nationalist which doesn't have to include "prison fetish" some people here have. You can't fight bourgeuise with their methods.
Fair enough. I do not think "not supporting national liberation movement" is a defining character of anarchism, though. I am not all read into the WSM's position, but much of the irish left is influenced to some extent by left nationalism, or rather republicanism (my own group being one of the exceptions). As for the specific case of Marian Price, she is a political prisoner facing torture and detained without trial, and the group she belongs to could perhaps, in a rather broad sense of the word be defined as "left". You don't need to be a supporter of republicanism to oppose the basic human rights abuses going on.

[bricolage]

Just to be clear here, you arent supporting that we force criminials to get brain implants, right?
yeah s/he's a techno-fascist nut job.

[Orlov]

Of course ultra-leftists are supporting the bourgeois as opposed to the anti-imperialist resistance in Ireland. Ultra-leftists will always continue to spout rhetoric about 'the working class has no state' but at the end of the day the ultra-leftists will have a state to return to in order to formulate their position which is simply unrealistic and has no bearing in the working class struggle which is why it's fallen into the dustbin over and over again. The working class unfortunately does have a state as it's a divided working class, the struggle in Ireland is a simple struggle for the working class in terms of revolutionary forces ousting a single imperialist entity in the a larger global struggle made up of several other revolutionary forces (Palestine, Kurdistan, Basque and all other oppressed nationalities) A victory for an Irish comrade is a victory for all, a victory for the Irish national liberation will be a victory for the world national liberation and will build a base for the working class to emancipate themselves further. If anyone needs to go to the firing squad it's the ultra-leftists that have no bearing on the actual class struggle due to their unrealistic expectations of class struggle and positions that aren't realistic.

[Crux]

Of course ultra-leftists are supporting the bourgeois as opposed to the anti-imperialist resistance in Ireland. Ultra-leftists will always continue to spout rhetoric about 'the working class has no state' but at the end of the day the ultra-leftists will have a state to return to in order to formulate their position which is simply unrealistic and has no bearing in the working class struggle which is why it's fallen into the dustbin over and over again. The working class unfortunately does have a state as it's a divided working class, the struggle in Ireland is a simple struggle for the working class in terms of revolutionary forces ousting a single imperialist entity in the a larger global struggle made up of several other revolutionary forces (Palestine, Kurdistan, Basque and all other oppressed nationalities) A victory for an Irish comrade is a victory for all, a victory for the Irish national liberation will be a victory for the world national liberation and will build a base for the working class to emancipate themselves further. If anyone needs to go to the firing squad it's the ultra-leftists that have no bearing on the actual class struggle due to their unrealistic expectations of class struggle and positions that aren't realistic.
Cute. Out of all this ranting the thing I am most curious about is why you consider the 32CSM and the RIRA not part of the "anti-imperialist resistance" in Ireland? I think they'd be up your alley actually, but you probably didn't even read, say the original link. Please do not insult our intelligence with further unbased ramblings.

[Искра]

Hm... isn't here ultra-leftist questioning support of nationalistic activist? :confused:

[brigadista]

in the past she was force fed and stripped searched ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Price

I really cant believe some of the people on here

to those supporting this type of incarceration - do some research!!!!

[Rafiq]

empty the prisons

And fill them with the counterrevolution.

[Orlov]

Cute. Out of all this ranting the thing I am most curious about is why you consider the 32CSM and the RIRA not part of the "anti-imperialist resistance" in Ireland? I think they'd be up your alley actually, but you probably didn't even read, say the original link. Please do not insult our intelligence with further unbased ramblings.

The 32CSM and the RIRA are the anti-imperialist resistance in Ireland. They're some of the only groups that continue to struggle against the British government and it's continued actions against Ireland. However, the 32's aren't the RIRA-- the 32's have no defined political doctrine, they're simply an activist group for Irish political prisoners. Hopefully, the RIRA and the 32's continue to grow and fill in the gap that was left after the PIRA was dismantled by traitors who were too concerned with their political future within the British political system.

I think you may have misunderstood my post, I wasn't commenting on the Anarchists campaigning for Marian, I was commenting on the ultra-leftists who are against this.

[Dire Helix]

And fill them with the counterrevolution.

We`ll have mass graves for that.

[l'Enfermé]

You support executions by the bourgeois state?


What the actual fuck is going on this thread? "Forward comrades, to a socialist future of gulags and firing squads!"...
I support the execution of murderers. This woman is a murdered of innocents. If say, my brother was killed today, I wouldn't be comfortable with the murderer being anything except for executed. If he wasn't executed, I would take his own life with my hands.

One can't settle for less when it comes to murderers.


uh she was subject to torture and developed anorexia nervosa while in prison, weighting 5 stone when she was pardoned in 1980 . She is currently being subjected to torture without even being properly charged with a crime. A question of basic legal rights. Now I do not defend the PIRA or the RIRA in any way shape or form. But cheering on the state as they torture a political prisoner...? C'mon.
She would weight more if she didn't go on a hunger strike bro. And I'm pretty sure that her situation was better than that of her victims; she's actually alive.

[aty]

LOLZ
http://www.wsm.ie/c/belfast-public-meeting-demand-release-marian-price
Eh? You do understand she represents a socialist organisation?

[bcbm]

Prisons are not great, but essential to society.

its weird that something so 'essential' to society has been an abject failure, with most places boasting fairly high recidivism rates. prison is a failed experiment in social control and has absolutely nothing to offer society, any society.

[Crux]

Orlov: And you say that to say the working class has no state is ultra-left...? Uhm are you aware of the writings of karl marx?
Borz: Thank fuck not all people think like you then. You know like relatives of the victims of 9/11 not supporting the "War on Terror". You sanctioning torture of political prisoners is utterly disgusting. And yeah I think, for instance, The Omagh bombing was a crime and also shows the dead end of the so called "armed struggle", but this does nothing to change the fact that I oppose keeping political prisoners and torturing them by the state.

[l'Enfermé]

its weird that something so 'essential' to society has been an abject failure, with most places boasting fairly high recidivism rates. prison is a failed experiment in social control and has absolutely nothing to offer society, any society.
Prisons in our advanced societies are a form of social control, sure, but that doesn't discredit the concept. Or maybe we can stuff all the murderers, rapists and molesters into your residence. That will surely be more effective.

[#FF0000]

fuck you people

seriously

[Deicide]

So what should happen to murderers, pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, and violent people in general? Or will people ''magically'' stop murdering each other in a communist society? I'm not trying to start a quarrel here. This thread seems a little heated as it is.

[bricolage]

So what should happen to murderers, pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, and violent people in general? Or will people ''magically'' stop murdering each other in a communist society? I'm not trying to start a quarrel here.
this is a very long and hypothetical question but there is nothing 'magical' about it, the point is more that a) a lot of what you describe stems from the conditions that communism would supersede and b) prison has shown its incapable of dealing with them anyway.

I don't agree with everything in it but I'd suggesting giving this article a read:
http://nplusonemag.com/raise-the-crime-rate

[l'Enfermé]

Orlov: And you say that to say the working class has no state is ultra-left...? Uhm are you aware of the writings of karl marx?
Borz: Thank fuck not all people think like you then. You know like relatives of the victims of 9/11 not supporting the "War on Terror". You sanctioning torture of political prisoners is utterly disgusting. And yeah I think, for instance, The Omagh bombing was a crime and also shows the dead end of the so called "armed struggle", but this does nothing to change the fact that I oppose keeping political prisoners and torturing them by the state.
She's not a political prisoner. She's a known terrorist that has innocent blood on her hands. Feeding someone because they're upset at being in an English prison(instead of an Irish one, what chauvism!) and won't eat for 200 days is not torture. Even if it is torture, I don't care. She's a murderer. She planted car bombs that injured 200 people and killed 1, many more people didn't die because 2 of the 4 car bombs were defused. I don't care about her. I wouldn't care if they shoot all the Irish terrorists. They've taken so many innocent lifes for absolutely no reason that it shouldn't even be an issue.

The "War on Terror" is completely a different thing. It had nothing to do with 9-11, the "War on Terror" was declared by Reagan actually, and those effected by Bush's War on Terror weren't guilty terrorists, they were children and women in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places so don't try to draw comparisons.

Don't call me disgusting because I'm not indoctrinated with your sensitive Western liberalism.

[Orlov]

Orlov: And you say that to say the working class has no state is ultra-left...? Uhm are you aware of the writings of karl marx?
Borz: Thank fuck not all people think like you then. You know like relatives of the victims of 9/11 not supporting the "War on Terror". You sanctioning torture of political prisoners is utterly disgusting. And yeah I think, for instance, The Omagh bombing was a crime and also shows the dead end of the so called "armed struggle", but this does nothing to change the fact that I oppose keeping political prisoners and torturing them by the state.

The Irish Republican Army and other revolutionary organizations such as those in Palestine need to be states as they must build a base for the working class of their respective lands to have. Of course the working class has no state but it's ultra-leftist and unrealistic to say that the working class of Ireland or for example Palestine doesn't deserve it's own proletariat state. It's realistic to create a proletarian state, as it's simply a base of the revolution and a liberated area. We need only to look to the foundation of the USSR by Lenin and Lenin's own stance on anti-colonialism and furthermore Ho Chi Minh for inspiration in building a proletarian state.


She's not a political prisoner. She's a known terrorist that has innocent blood on her hands. Feeding someone because they're upset at being in an English prison(instead of an Irish one, what chauvism!) and won't eat for 200 days is not torture. Even if it is torture, I don't care. She's a murderer. She planted car bombs that injured 200 people and killed 1, many more people didn't die because 2 of the 4 car bombs were defused. I don't care about her. I wouldn't care if they shoot all the Irish terrorists. They've taken so many innocent lifes for absolutely no reason that it shouldn't even be an issue.

The "War on Terror" is completely a different thing. It had nothing to do with 9-11, the "War on Terror" was declared by Reagan actually, and those effected by Bush's War on Terror weren't guilty terrorists, they were children and women in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places so don't try to draw comparisons.

Don't call me disgusting because I'm not indoctrinated with your sensitive Western liberalism.
Oh please save the sob story. The Price sisters responded directly to the actions of the British occupation of Ireland and that response called for a bombing in England which helped to bring the conflict that the British pushed on Ireland back to England. I stand by it being a proper response, when an entity occupies a far away land and continues to be responsible for all the crimes committed there, a proper response should be taken and this was it. The Price sisters were released upon the peace-treaty between the PIRA and the British government, yet you continue to sob about her action with the PIRA when she already was a political prisoner for her revolutionary action and struggle with the PIRA.

First of all it is torture, she has been confined within a British prison without actual charges, yet you keep bringing up the ones she was imprisoned for prior to the Good Friday Agreement. She's not in prison for that, she's in prison due to being a political prisoner of the British state and it's RUC tools.

[bcbm]

Prisons in our advanced societies are a form of social control, sure, but that doesn't discredit the concept.

the concept is all about social control and it never had any credit to begin with.


Or maybe we can stuff all the murderers, rapists and molesters into your residence. That will surely be more effective.

try to keep up, somebody said this on the first page and i think it speaks volumes to the mindset of prison supporters that this is their immediate retort. 'oh you don't think treating people like animals is effective? well why don't the pedo murder rapists stay with you!' because obviously what other options could there be? drawing and quartering them i suppose:rolleyes:


So what should happen to murderers, pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, and violent people in general?

probably some form of isolation or monitoring coupled with community support and rehabilitation. i think something like this (http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,744851,00.html) is a step in the right direction and i think in the immediate all discriminatory practices against felons who have served time should be ended.


Or will people ''magically'' stop murdering each other in a communist society?

to a large extent, yes.

[Os Cangaceiros]

No revolution worth the name won't feature the destruction of the prisons. Maybe a few will be left up to be turned into museums, like Alcatraz or the tower of London or something.

You'll remember that perhaps one of the most inspiring moments of Tunisia's relatively recent unrest was when somewhere in the neighborhood of 11,000 prisoners escaped, which I think was something like half of Tunisia's prison population. Thousands of Egyptian prisoners escaped jail during the height of the anti-Mubarak protests. Prisoners in Yemen protested/rioted in solidarity with what was happening in that country, as did prisoners in Greece. As for the USA, there's been prisoner actions in California, Georgia, North Carolina etc. in furtherance of their demands for humane conditions in jail. Prisoners are perfectly capable of conceptualizing political ideas, they're not just a bunch of dumb violent animals that you seem to think they are, Borz. It's true though that a lot of violence and ignorance is propogated in prison. Any prisoner will tell you that, in the United States, that sort of ignorance is actively promoted by the authorities, lest prisoners become united against prison administrators.

Some people really do buy into the ridiculous right-wing notion that somehow most people in jail would start killing everyone if they were let out. Even people who are in jail for violent offenses aren't usually people I'd ever be afraid of...the amount of genuine psychopaths and sadists is a small fraction of people in prison.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1978922&postcount=9

[brigadista]

I support the execution of murderers. This woman is a murdered of innocents. If say, my brother was killed today, I wouldn't be comfortable with the murderer being anything except for executed. If he wasn't executed, I would take his own life with my hands.

One can't settle for less when it comes to murderers.


She would weight more if she didn't go on a hunger strike bro. And I'm pretty sure that her situation was better than that of her victims; she's actually alive.

you believe she got a fair trial ?

do you know anything about irish history??

i again urge more research before you approach your keyboard

[gorillafuck]

so the anarchists are against nationalism, but for emptying the prisons, so they support specific campaigns to release nationalists from prison but do not do campaigns to set common criminals free? makes no sense

this shows obvious sympathy to nationalism on part of the anarchists in question, seeing as how they are specifically trying to set free a nationalist prisoner but not any common criminals. considering that, if they were opposed to nationalism, it would make more sense to try to set free prisoners who were not political activists who they supposedly opposed. it's like if someone was imprisoned for stealing a car, and someone else was imprisoned for GOP activism, and the anarchists all rallied around the GOP activist under the banner of freeing all criminals.

[gorillafuck]

I'm not going to start talking about rapists etc. but I have a question for all of you.

if there is an anarchist side and a reactionary side in a civil war (and any real revolution would obviously involve civil war), what do you do with a captured enemy combatant who is out to destroy your revolution? do you...

A. kill them
B. keep them prisoner
C. don't take any prisoners or kill any captured combatants, and just allow enemies to return to their side

[NewLeft]

so the anarchists are against nationalism, but for emptying the prisons, so they support specific campaigns to release nationalists from prison but do not do campaigns to set common criminals free? makes no sense

this shows obvious sympathy to nationalism on part of the anarchists in question, seeing as how they are specifically trying to set free a nationalist prisoner but not any common criminals. considering that, if they were opposed to nationalism, it would make more sense to try to set free prisoners who were not political activists who they supposedly opposed. it's like if someone was imprisoned for stealing a car, and someone else was imprisoned for GOP activism, and the anarchists all rallied around the GOP activist under the banner of freeing all criminals.
What do you think the anarchist black cross was trying to do..

[gorillafuck]

I said "the anarchists in question". that's the WSM.

[electro_fan]

Prisons are a primitive institution, so we should gradually replace them with home confinement. With GPS tracking, brain implants, cameras, and other modern technologies we can prevent even the worst criminals from leaving home.



It is already expensive to maintain prisons for rapists, child molesters, and murders. Replacing all prisons with electronic monitoring is an economical option.



With brain implants we can even make non-human animals model citizens. This has already been demonstrated on rats and insects (http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?albumid=772).
So the reason you don't like prisons is because they're primitive? Jesus people go on about screws and cops etc but your future sounds like some sort of post industrial fascist nightmare. Prisons will sadly always be necessary because there will always be people who commit crimes, but under socialism the conditions which produce criminals will be minised to some extent.

as for "testing on rats and insects" give me a break - these are humans we are talking about! can you imagine a more violatory (dunno if that's a word) way of punishing someone by tracking them inside their brains? we wouldn't know the long term effects of such a programme? And what if it got used for the wrong reasons?

and why should people accept someone being tortured in prison because they don't agree with their politics? fucking hell are we going to start agreeing with the people who just got found guilty of occupying fortnums and masons being locked up because some of them arent the right kind of sectarian ??

[electro_fan]

ACTually never mind

[electro_fan]

why is it OK to strip political prisoners and torture them because you don't agree with their views, seriously, i get the feeling some of you lot are just living in some little bubble where the real world doesn't exist

[NewLeft]

I might be mistaken, but anarchists sympathize with minority groups like the indigenous/blacks..etc., so that might end up meaning nationalists too. So they aren't *strictly* opposed to nationalists.

[electro_fan]

learn some of the history of ireland, i guarantee you that if you go to some areas of ireland (or here for that matter) and started spouting the whole "she deserved it" bollocks, you would be lucky to escape without a major injury. you lot go on about "the working class" but i bet most of you don't know any working class people.

the whole idea that the fact she's an irish republican and therefore a "nationalist" is more important than the british bourgeois state torturing its opponents, that's sick, it shows that you spend more time reading shit ultra left books than talking to people. most people would be appalled by such an act. and i'm not a republican and i don't agree with their theories and methods, but the idea that this is somehow justified ... fuck this, seriously

[Rafiq]

I'm not going to start talking about rapists etc. but I have a question for all of you.

if there is an anarchist side and a reactionary side in a civil war (and any real revolution would obviously involve civil war), what do you do with a captured enemy combatant who is out to destroy your revolution? do you...

A. kill them
B. keep them prisoner
C. don't take any prisoners or kill any captured combatants, and just allow enemies to return to their side

Ha! Why ask? just go back and look at Comrade Makhno and the likes. In this regard they were no different from the bolsheviks. And that's nothing to be ashamed of.

[l'Enfermé]

Ha! Why ask? just go back and look at Comrade Makhno and the likes. In this regard they were no different from the bolsheviks. And that's nothing to be ashamed of.
Ah, Great Makhno, the Anarchist Warlord that imposed a military dictatorship on his portion of Eastern Ukraine! But still, an excellent figure compared to other opponents of the Bolsheviks.

[bricolage]

so the anarchists are against nationalism, but for emptying the prisons, so they support specific campaigns to release nationalists from prison but do not do campaigns to set common criminals free? makes no sense
yeah I mean the WSM do claim that 'we see no form of nationalism as offering a definitive solution to either the working class in Ireland or the working class across the globe' but it's quite obvious they do have some kind of sympathy to republicanism. the empty the prisons stuff has come later from other posters on this site.

I would say though that there could be a degree of self-interest to anarchists (and others) campaigning for the release of political prisoners are laws criminalising dissent against the state are more likely to be turned against anarchists than laws against rape, theft etc.

[Geiseric]

Wow man MLs are right wing as shit, they actually support jails! This is amazing, seeing how Lenin and the Bolsheviks released most people from the Tsarist jails once they took power, and took huge steps to end things like corporal and capital punishment in the U.S.S.R. Prisons are reactionary, there is no other way of looking at it. The people in there are the poorest, worst off of the toilers, and steps to make sure that nobody in society is that bad off to the point where they have to be locked away should be done. That is the socialist solution to prisons.

[aty]

She's not a political prisoner. She's a known terrorist that has innocent blood on her hands. Feeding someone because they're upset at being in an English prison(instead of an Irish one, what chauvism!) and won't eat for 200 days is not torture. Even if it is torture, I don't care. She's a murderer. She planted car bombs that injured 200 people and killed 1, many more people didn't die because 2 of the 4 car bombs were defused. I don't care about her. I wouldn't care if they shoot all the Irish terrorists. They've taken so many innocent lifes for absolutely no reason that it shouldn't even be an issue.


Fucking moron. She was a soldier in the IRA and bombed common military targets in London during the height of the war. And phoned in warnings before the bombs went of, as the IRA always did when innocent lifes were at risk. The guy that died, died of a heart attack.

It was not Marian Price and the IRA that started attacking Britain, it is the empire of Britain that have occupied Ireland for hundred of years with military force. Everyone have the right to live free from military occupation, and armed resistance is always justified in such circumstances.

[o well this is ok I guess]

And fill them with the counterrevolution. I always pegged you more of a "executions in the street" kind of guy

[Ocean Seal]

Don't call me disgusting because I'm not indoctrinated with your sensitive Western liberalism.
You're the one who isn't indoctrinated with liberalism. My friend, your comments are indicative of a severe case of the liberal.

Symptoms may include
Dismissing the institutional violence of the state
Believing that insurrectionism should be punishable by death
Suggesting that an activist who went on a hunger strike deserves to die for entering the hunger strike
Believing that revolution will result in no lost lives
Calling for the death penalty on principle

Please see a doctor if you dismiss revolution as a valid tactic and vote for Obama.

[Dr Doom]

Fucking moron. She was a soldier in the IRA and bombed common military targets in London during the height of the war. And phoned in warnings before the bombs went of, as the IRA always did when innocent lifes were at risk.


hahaha who you trying to kid. what about the innocent lives at kingsmill? or the countless other murders, 'punishment' beatings, and the various other mechanisms the IRA used to wage it's "war".

just on topic, i dont support the state locking nationalists up. but the wsm does have a history of tail ending left republicans.

[Ravachol]

With brain implants we can even make non-human animals model citizens. This has already been demonstrated on rats and insects (http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?albumid=772).

For your sake I hope you're making a joke. People like you make me want to vomit in utter, utter disgust. Orwellian technocrats seeking to extend the reign of power and discipline into the very minds of people. You deserve nothing but contempt. Why isn't this poster restricted?



Some people really do buy into the ridiculous right-wing notion that somehow most people in jail would start killing everyone if they were let out. Even people who are in jail for violent offenses aren't usually people I'd ever be afraid of...the amount of genuine psychopaths and sadists is a small fraction of people in prison.

In fact, if anything, prison only reproduces the worst of these behavior and turns people forced by circumstances or run-of-the-mill scumbags into total homicidal sadists.

I bet all the whiny 'hurrdurr gulags and brain implants comrade!' morons here haven't ever served time or even know anyone who did (political or otherwise).



So what should happen to murderers, pedophiles, rapists, terrorists, and violent people in general? Or will people ''magically'' stop murdering each other in a communist society? I'm not trying to start a quarrel here. This thread seems a little heated as it is.

We will put them together with other psychopaths such as the lunatics in this thread advocating gulag-socialism and brain implants. That's what we'll do. Also, 'terrorists', honestly? :rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

I always pegged you more of a "executions in the street" kind of guy

You've gotta keep them somewhere before you dispose of them.

[l'Enfermé]

You're the one who isn't indoctrinated with liberalism. My friend, your comments are indicative of a severe case of the liberal.

Symptoms may include
Dismissing the institutional violence of the state
Believing that insurrectionism should be punishable by death
Suggesting that an activist who went on a hunger strike deserves to die for entering the hunger strike
Believing that revolution will result in no lost lives
Calling for the death penalty on principle

Please see a doctor if you dismiss revolution as a valid tactic and vote for Obama.
Bombing civilians and acts of terrorism are not "insurrectionism ", and she's not an activist that went on a hunger strike, she's a violent terrorist. "Suggesting that an activist who went on a hunger strike deserves to die for entering the hunger strike" where the fuck did I say that and how does that even make sense if I said it. If you go on a hunger strike, you're killing yourself already, they actually force-fed her which prevented her dying from hunger...

"Believing that revolution will result in no lost lives" I didn't say that either. I'm completely in favor of revolutionary terror. I'm not in favor of violent nationalists blowing up innocent people because they want a part of Northern Ireland to secede from Capitalist UK and join Capitalist Ireland(The nationalist lunatics apparently believe that every life they took was worth it, even though it was completely obvious that their actions didn't bring them any closer to their nationalist goals)....

"Calling for the death penalty on principle"...it's liberals that oppose the death penalty "on principle", me, I don't call for it "on principle". I call for it out of revenge. I said, if someone kills my brother or a friend of mine, I won't settle for anything less than his life also. If someone takes life without a just cause, I see no worth in their life either.

[l'Enfermé]

For your sake I hope you're making a joke. People like you make me want to vomit in utter, utter disgust. Orwellian technocrats seeking to extend the reign of power and discipline into the very minds of people. You deserve nothing but contempt. Why isn't this poster restricted?



In fact, if anything, prison only reproduces the worst of these behavior and turns people forced by circumstances or run-of-the-mill scumbags into total homicidal sadists.

I bet all the whiny 'hurrdurr gulags and brain implants comrade!' morons here haven't ever served time or even know anyone who did (political or otherwise).




We will put them together with other psychopaths such as the lunatics in this thread advocating gulag-socialism and brain implants. That's what we'll do. Also, 'terrorists', honestly? :rolleyes:
My great-grandfather simply disappeared one day. Later my grandmother's brother(his son) found out after years of research that he disappeared into a gulag, he found a gulag survivor that knew him(my great-grandfather) and interviewed him, learning that he was disappeared into a gulag because he owned too much livestock, and he was eaten by guard dogs after trying to escape. I'm no proponent of gulags, don't mistake me for one.

[Ocean Seal]

Bombing civilians and acts of terrorism are not "insurrectionism"
Actually I'm pretty sure insurrection=terrorism.



and she's not an activist that went on a hunger strike, she's a violent terrorist.




"Suggesting that an activist who went on a hunger strike deserves to die for entering the hunger strike" where the fuck did I say that and how does that even make sense if I said it. If you go on a hunger strike, you're killing yourself already, they actually force-fed her which prevented her dying from hunger...
That's more or less what you implied. That it was her choice to go on the hunger strike. She went on a hunger strike for humane conditions. That takes dedication.



"Believing that revolution will result in no lost lives" I didn't say that either. I'm completely in favor of revolutionary terror. I'm not in favor of violent nationalists blowing up innocent people because they want a part of Northern Ireland to secede from Capitalist UK and join Capitalist Ireland(The nationalist lunatics apparently believe that every life they took was worth it, even though it was completely obvious that their actions didn't bring them any closer to their nationalist goals)....


Its a war between an oppressed nation and an oppressor. The RUC kills innocents all the time, in fact I remember the statistics were that approximately 75% of the people killed by the RUC or whatever they're called were civies and about 15% of the people killed by the IRA were civilians. Treat it as you would any other war.



"Calling for the death penalty on principle"...it's liberals that oppose the death penalty "on principle", me, I don't call for it "on principle". I call for it out of revenge. I said, if someone kills my brother or a friend of mine, I won't settle for anything less than his life also. If someone takes life without a just cause, I see no worth in their life either.
Liberals are against the death penalty? News to me. Also what if the state killed the friend or brother of one of the IRA members? Does that make what they did legitimate.? Again you are saying it out of principle. Revenge is principle.

[Crux]

The Irish Republican Army and other revolutionary organizations such as those in Palestine need to be states as they must build a base for the working class of their respective lands to have. Of course the working class has no state but it's ultra-leftist and unrealistic to say that the working class of Ireland or for example Palestine doesn't deserve it's own proletariat state. It's realistic to create a proletarian state, as it's simply a base of the revolution and a liberated area. We need only to look to the foundation of the USSR by Lenin and Lenin's own stance on anti-colonialism and furthermore Ho Chi Minh for inspiration in building a proletarian state.
Ho Chi Minh sold out to french imperialism and indeed put down the protests against this and the worker's independent organization. Hardly a hero for proletarian internationalism. So yeah, I believe very much in the right to self-determination, but I think there is quite a pronounced diffrence between the petit-bourgeois nationalism espoused by Ho Chi Minh and Lenin's anti-imperialism.
Likewise I am a gret fan of James Connolly but hardly so of the dead end tactics of the republican movement, this can be quite visible seen in the collaborationism of provisional Sinn Fein and the absolute cul de sac that the dissidents find themselfes in. Secterianism, nationalism and individual terrorism is no way forward.

And all this said, this does nothing to change the fact that we need to stand up against state terror, detaining and torturing political prisoners is not ok, and yes Marian Price is a political prisoner.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Wow man MLs are right wing as shit, they actually support jails! This is amazing, seeing how Lenin and the Bolsheviks released most people from the Tsarist jails once they took power, and took huge steps to end things like corporal and capital punishment in the U.S.S.R. Prisons are reactionary, there is no other way of looking at it. The people in there are the poorest, worst off of the toilers, and steps to make sure that nobody in society is that bad off to the point where they have to be locked away should be done. That is the socialist solution to prisons.

I'm not expressing any sort of political opinion but I think the reason why Lenin freed many prisoners was because many of the incarcerated were jailed revolutionaries. This would be slightly different compared to the "M-L" approach of jailing, and, for others, releasing people for "high profile" crimes.

[Rafiq]

Being against some things universally is counter revolutionary.

We oppose jailing and killings of proletarians, but we support them if they're Bourgeois. It's called class interest and class war. In war, if your comrade is taken as prisoner, we count this as a loss. But when we captute an enemy, it's a strategic gain.

The proletarian state must keep executions and prisons for the class enemy.

[bcbm]

so the anarchists are against nationalism, but for emptying the prisons, so they support specific campaigns to release nationalists from prison but do not do campaigns to set common criminals free? makes no sense

i don't know about these jokers but lately there have been lots of anarchists doing noise demos outside prisons and other forms of prisoner support have been ongoing for a long time, such as becoming pen pals etc.


if there is an anarchist side and a reactionary side in a civil war (and any real revolution would obviously involve civil war), what do you do with a captured enemy combatant who is out to destroy your revolution? do you...

A. kill them
B. keep them prisoner
C. don't take any prisoners or kill any captured combatants, and just allow enemies to return to their side

keep them in the most humane conditions and treat them with the utmost respect.


The proletarian state must keep executions and prisons for the class enemy.

no. the triumph of the proletariat will be a pinnacle of human achievement and shouldn't be marred with the barbarism of the past.

[Rafiq]

no. the triumph of the proletariat will be a pinnacle of human achievement and shouldn't be marred with the barbarism of the past.

The French revolution was a major achievement, yet it required mass terror and executions in order to defend itself. And this is natural to revolutions. All of the so-called comfort that this society has (In contrast with Feudalism) rests upon a pool of blood. We cannot pick and choose which part of the revolution we want to have. I would be the first one to be rejoice if executions against the class enemy weren't going to be inevitable. Total, merciless destruction (As nachayev puts it, though, it doesn't have to be simply demolishing buildings or harming people, it could be as simple as enacting radical laws and the destruction of many aspects of Bourgeois society, such) is of absolute necessity to crush the remnants of the old society and pave the way for a revolutionary status quo. It is the only way to forfill the needs of the revolutionary spirit and finally escape the capitalist mode of production once and for all. All of it's minions will have to be taken care of some how.

[bcbm]

The French revolution was a major achievement, yet it required mass terror and executions in order to defend itself.

and drowned in it


And this is natural to revolutions.

which have so far resulted in miserable hells. hm.


All of the so-called comfort that this society has (In contrast with Feudalism) rests upon a pool of blood. We cannot pick and choose which part of the revolution we want to have.

since 'the revolution' hasn't happened yet, it is well within our power to create it however we like. don't get me wrong, i have no illusions about what it will take to bring down the totalitarian capitalist hell our world has become, but i don't think we should relish in it and i think our methods should represent a radical break with the past, not its continuation.

[Rafiq]

and drowned in it

Yet France was not invaded.




which have so far resulted in miserable hells. hm.

Not for the classes that created them (besides Russia, for reasons more complex, for one, a small working class).

I'd say the Bourgeois revolutions were very successful, the way they were carried out.




since 'the revolution' hasn't happened yet, it is well within our power to create it however we like. don't get me wrong, i have no illusions about what it will tak
e to bring down the totalitarian capitalist hell our world has become, but i don't think we should relish in it and i think our methods should represent a radical break with the past, not its continuation.

We cannot create it how we like. That's Idealism. What is necessary exists outside of all of our desires. We cannot just pull diamonds out of our ass without shedding blood digging for them.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Prisons are a primitive institution, so we should gradually replace them with home confinement. With GPS tracking, brain implants, cameras, and other modern technologies we can prevent even the worst criminals from leaving home.

It is already expensive to maintain prisons for rapists, child molesters, and murders. Replacing all prisons with electronic monitoring is an economical option.

With brain implants we can even make non-human animals model citizens. This has already been demonstrated on rats and insects (http://www.revleft.com/vb/album.php?albumid=772).

I don't like home confinement for outright class enemies, serious counterrevolutionaries, serial murderers, serial rapists, etc. for the exact same reason I'm against prisons: economic feasibility.

[Krano]

I don't like home confinement for outright class enemies, serious counterrevolutionaries, serial murderers, serial rapists, etc. for the exact same reason I'm against prisons: economic feasibility.
Economy will be the least of your worries if you really belive these people should run around like headless chickens.

[Crux]

She's not a political prisoner. She's a known terrorist that has innocent blood on her hands. Feeding someone because they're upset at being in an English prison(instead of an Irish one, what chauvism!) and won't eat for 200 days is not torture. Even if it is torture, I don't care. She's a murderer. She planted car bombs that injured 200 people and killed 1, many more people didn't die because 2 of the 4 car bombs were defused. I don't care about her. I wouldn't care if they shoot all the Irish terrorists. They've taken so many innocent lifes for absolutely no reason that it shouldn't even be an issue.

The "War on Terror" is completely a different thing. It had nothing to do with 9-11, the "War on Terror" was declared by Reagan actually, and those effected by Bush's War on Terror weren't guilty terrorists, they were children and women in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places so don't try to draw comparisons.

Don't call me disgusting because I'm not indoctrinated with your sensitive Western liberalism.
First of all, she is not currently imprisoned for the bombing, so I'd say whatever point you are trying to make out of that is null and void. Your implication that she went on hunger strike because she was being imprisoned in an "english[sic]" prison is of course nonsense.

It shouldn't be an issue if the British state would start to execute people en masse that they deem terrorists...? The fuck...?

So you're okay with thing's like torture and imprisoning people without trial (and apparently executing them as well) as long as you're sufficiently convinced that they are terrorists, but only in Ireland?

Don't talk to me about liberalism, bro.

[bcbm]

Yet France was not invaded.

not until it started invading other countries, anyway.


Not for the classes that created them (besides Russia, for reasons more complex, for one, a small working class).

I'd say the Bourgeois revolutions were very successful, the way they were carried out.

successful yes. miserable hells yes. i want better.


We cannot create it how we like. That's Idealism. What is necessary exists outside of all of our desires. We cannot just pull diamonds out of our ass without shedding blood digging for them.

the conditions that create 'the revolution' have not occurred, so its speculation to say what methods we will resort to and even with a range of circumstances, minutiae like how to treat prisoners is always within our control.

[black magick hustla]

learn some of the history of ireland, i guarantee you that if you go to some areas of ireland (or here for that matter) and started spouting the whole "she deserved it" bollocks, you would be lucky to escape without a major injury. you lot go on about "the working class" but i bet most of you don't know any working class people.

i am not down with prisons blahlbahblah but this dumb workerist shit is dumb. i imagine there are loyalist areas in ireland too. or areas that want nothing to do with the sectarian murder gangs also

[black magick hustla]

warning, a wild ira museum curatior sectarian nationalist appeared