Your opinion on Joseph Smith

[Bostana]

A recent thread came up and it got me thinking,
What is the leftist view of Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism?

I think Joseph Smith was not a bad man but not a good one either. Joseph Smith married many women all at once including two 14 year old girls. However I do think he had the idea of setting up a commune-like-society in which people would help each other, everyone is equal, things that a Commune would normally have.
However this was a Mormon right wing Commune not like the Commune they had in Paris.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

In my opinion (and no offense to mormons on the site) he manipulated people into following him because he could read some magical golden plates. I have no respect for him.

[Blake's Baby]

He was a fraudster, a charlatan and most probably these days would have been diagnosed as suffering from personality disorders. Back in the 1800s of course if you were stupid and disturbed people threw rocks at you and/or made you a slave, if you were clever and disturbed, they let you found religions and seduce those less clever than you (but also maybe less disturbed than you, at least at first).

On the one hand, he was bad and mad, on the other hand, the society he was living in, even the not-bad and not-mad bits, wasn't very happy sane or clever either, so... "a product of his times, thank progress that it couldn't happen now (cough, L Ron Hubbard, cough)"

[l'Enfermé]

We view him the same as any cult leader...you know Mormons think that black people exist because when Cain killed Abel, God cursed Cain with "black skin", "thick lips", etc, i.e blacks are the cursed descendents of Cain that "suffer" black skin because Cain killed Abel.

They also believe that there's a prophet alive today(President of the Church, everyone pays 10 percent of their income to him)and he has 12 Apostles...come on. It's almost as bad as Scientology...

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Basically Smith took elements of mid 19th century American pop culture and made a religious movement out of it.There was hysteria and conspiracy theories back then over Freemasonry. There was also an interest in Egyptology.Smith started his movement in a region of western New York State known as the "burnt over district", there was a huge number of political and religious movements coming out of this region. Abolitionism and feminism got their starts here.

Joseph Smith recruited from the backwash of the "Millerites".A Vermont farmer/landowner,William miller from his studies of the Book of Revelation predicted that the world would end (somethings never change) and that the Burnt Over District would be the epicenter of this. Tens of thousands of people from all over the US and the world came to this region and sold everythung they owned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism

Obviously the world didn't end. Smith's story of finding copper plates with Egyptian hieroglyphics has been debunked by lots of historians. Smith was an organisational genius and the idea of creating a new society is intriguing.

The Mormons, like a lot of tight knit religious communities can be very restrictive and controlling towards its members. If one is lgbt, or any other type of "minority"one has big problems in these sub cultures.

Tom Wolfe, when he was writing "The electric Cool Aid Acid Test, regarded Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc as 19th century hippies, people with strong sex drives prone to mystical visions. He thought that was the way a "primary" religious group develops.

[Bostana]

thank progress that it couldn't happen now (cough, L Ron Hubbard, cough)"

It's funny cuz it's true


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[electro_fan]

well everyone has the right to believe what they believe but this guy was a complete fraud in my opinion. it was so obvious that the way that he supposedly recieved the book of mormon was a complete fake, and popularist nonsense, saying that the israelites were actually american for example, and much of the book of mormon was very racist when it was written.

i also don't like the way that in the mormon religion you can be converted to it once you are dead. in my opinion the only person who has the right to decide if they believe in something or not is that person themselves and i don't think that a religion has the right to convert someone after they die. in particular i find it very direspectful that they have tried to convert jewish victims of the holocaust and other atrocities, because most of them would have been extremely offended by the idea, and also because it seems to me like an attempt to cash in on their suffering.

i do believe in a god but not in organised religion, and i find it really offensive that people go around and try and do that without anyone's consent when it's not what they would have wanted when they were alive.

i do think there are good mormons the way there are good jehovah's witnesses or anyone in any religion, i don't have any respect for the religion though.

[Lobotomy]

We view him the same as any cult leader...you know Mormons think that black people exist because when Cain killed Abel, God cursed Cain with "black skin", "thick lips", etc, i.e blacks are the cursed descendents of Cain that "suffer" black skin because Cain killed Abel.

Not to mention that the church denied black men from joining the priesthood, until 1978 when they conveniently received a revelation to reverse that policy.

[GoddessCleoLover]

A number of really excellent posts. The only thing I wold add is that he and the early Mormons were also a product of the era of the frontier. They were able to move into the Utah territory and essentially remain semi autonomous for almost fifty years. In that sense they were an historical anomaly not capable of duplication in the modern age.

[Os Cangaceiros]

He hustled hard!

[Astarte]

Joseph Smith was a kind of charlatan-grifter. He originally was a "treasure hunter" and went out in the wilderness with a "seer stone" and dowsing rod to look for treasure - after not finding any, he claimed he was contacted by an angel who revealed to him some golden tablets that were then taken up to heaven right away.

My opinion is that Joseph Smith read this book and then had the idea for the religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_Hebrews

[revhiphop]

Hopefully this Joseph Smith thread will be more productive than a Joseph Stalin thread. :D

[eyeheartlenin]

Most of my exposure to Mormonism is secondhand, but the thing that stands out, in my mind, is Smith's willingness to lie. I mean, the whole thing, about the golden plates, written in, what was it?, "reformed Egyptian," a language completely unknown to linguistics, and Smith insisted he was commanded "not to show the plates to anyone else, but to publish their translation," (wikipedia.org)–– and then, when the "translation" was finished, the angel took the plates back, according to Smith –– how convenient! Everything depends on believing Joseph Smith! What a complete and transparent fraud the whole Mormon undertaking is! How fortunate we are to have South Park to tell us the truth about these things! :)

[CommunityBeliever]

Joseph Smith was a pedophile, a con-artist, a charlatan, a fraud and a racist.

[Left Leanings]

Just another example of a 'prophet', touting that good, old time 'revealed' religion. Otherwise known as a right load of fucking shit. Thank fuck for secular humanism :D

[hatzel]

Joseph Smith was a pedophile

[citation needed]

[Blake's Baby]

It's that 'people in the 1800s (or, 600s, or whatever) could marry 14-year-olds and we can't therefore they're paedophiles' argument.

[hatzel]

Of this I am already aware :cool:

[Zostrianos]

An obvious conman. What I find even worse is how his fundamentalist fraudulent cult grew and became a huge recognized religion, while revolutionary movements, organizations of benefit to society, and tolerant\non-dogmatic religions still retain so few members...
As for the Book of Mormon itself, it has been completely refuted by academics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon#Historical_authenticity

The archaeological, historical and scientific communities have in general been skeptical about the claims of the Book of Mormon. Critics of such tend to focus on four main areas:
The lack of correlation between locations described in the Book of Mormon and American archaeological sites.[92]
References to animals, plants, metals and technologies in the Book of Mormon that archaeological or scientific studies have found no evidence of in post-Pleistocene, pre-Columbian America, frequently referred to as anachronisms.[93] Items typically listed include cattle,[94] horses,[95][96] asses,[95][97] oxen,[95] sheep, swine, goats,[98] elephants,[99][100] wheat, steel,[101] brass, chains, iron, scimitars, and chariots.[102]
The lack of linguistic connection between any Native American languages and Near Eastern languages.[103]
The lack of DNA evidence linking any Native American group to the ancient Near East.[104]
Most adherents of the Latter Day Saint movement consider the Book of Mormon to generally be a historically accurate account.[37] Within the Latter Day Saint movement there are several apologetic groups that seek to reconcile the discrepancies in diverse ways. Among these apologetic groups, much work has been published by Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), and Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR), attempting to defend the Book of Mormon as a literal history, countering arguments critical of its historical authenticity, or reconciling historical and scientific evidence with the text. One of the more common recent arguments is the limited geography model, which conjectures that the people of the Book of Mormon covered only a limited geographical region in either Mesoamerica, South America, or the Great Lakes area. The LDS Church continues to declare that science can support the Book of Mormon.

[Nox]

Watch the South Park episode about Joseph Smith. That basically sums up my opinion of him.

[hatzel]

Watch the South Park episode about Joseph Smith. That basically sums up my opinion of him.

...by which I assume you mean you think he told a load of flagrant lies in creating Mormonism, but the result of said creation - despite being based on fallacy - is overwhelmingly positive? Gotcha!

[Rooster]

I hate to ask this but... is any of this true?

bsp0inDZ22M

[Guy Incognito]

Man was a charlatan and a horndog who wanted more than one wife. How he managed to pull one of that magnitude over a group of people of that size is amazing. Especially given how little actual thought it would have taken to not believe the rediculous crap coming out of his mouth. Part of the reason the abrahamic religions still function in modern society, is due to the ancientness of their texts. If you walked up to a catholic priest today, and declared yourself the second coming of Christ (or worse, that you were speaking for him), they'd have your ass committed with a sad look and a pat on the head.

This does not however, explain how scientologists exist. When there is a science fiction writer, and he just declares that his books, in the fiction section, which he had prior sold...as fiction...after a bet with another science fiction writer that he could make a religion, are real, they should have laughed him off the west coast into the ocean. Only. In. California.

[Althusser]

A con-artist who started a religion, so I'm not a fan. That episode of South Park was exactly what mormans believe, and I'm glad that they don't exaggerate because Mormans and scientologists don't have shit to say to defend themselves from South Park's episodes.

Just try to imagine the following in your head:

"Joseph claimed an ability to use seer stones for locating lost items and buried treasure. To do so, Smith would put a stone in a white stovepipe hat and would then see the required information in reflections given off by the stone.":lol:

[Sasha]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104253/joseph-smith-part-1

[Bostana]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104253/joseph-smith-part-1

I remember watching this episode

[eyeheartlenin]

Originally Posted by Nox: Watch the South Park episode about Joseph Smith. That basically sums up my opinion of him.


...by which I assume you mean you think he told a load of flagrant lies in creating Mormonism, but the result of said creation - despite being based on fallacy - is overwhelmingly positive? Gotcha!

The South Park treatment of Mormon family life is really good. After its devastating exposé of Joseph Smith, South Park correctly stands up for freedom of conscience. Good work!

From what I have heard, lots of Mormons are enjoying the Book of Mormon musical.

Can someone let me know how to put a spoiler alert in a message?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I hate to ask this but... is any of this true?

bsp0inDZ22M

Are you asking whether there are trillions of planets ruled by godlike beings who wee once just like us?And if the god Elohim, after making love with one of his goddess wives, Mary, fathered the Mormon Jesus?

Well, I'm not up on cosmology as I should be. There may be something in string theory or M theory pointing in this direction. I'll have to do further research.

Seriously, I think its a slightly popularized version of actual Mormom belief. I don't know if the idea of other habitable planets existed in Joseph Smith's time.The mythology is horseshit of course but it lead to some half decent science fiction, like Battlestar Galactica and Orson Scott Card (whatever his current reactionary politics are)

Joseph Smith was a frontier con man in an era with many frontier hucksters.The question from a Marxist perspective is why are people drawn to this, why do they see the need for this form of believe system and community?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

...by which I assume you mean you think he told a load of flagrant lies in creating Mormonism, but the result of said creation - despite being based on fallacy - is overwhelmingly positive? Gotcha!

I haven't seen the South Park episode, its not one of my favorite shows, but I actually might agree. I intensly dislike organized religion, and there are obvious reactionary elements to Mormonism, but there is something to be said for a community which gives its members a feeling of belonging and stability.

The history of the 19th century Mormons , even if Joseph Smith was the 19th century version of L Ron Hubbard or Gino Parente, is compelling. What can we use from this to build a socialist society?

[ParaRevolutionary]

He was a con man that conjured up Polygamy to justify his infidelity.

[Guy Incognito]

The South Park treatment of Mormon family life is really good. After its devastating exposé of Joseph Smith, South Park correctly stands up for freedom of conscience. Good work!

From what I have heard, lots of Mormons are enjoying the Book of Mormon musical.

Can someone let me know how to put a spoiler alert in a message?

One thing we should not forget though, is that though the Morman sense of community and family are to be praised, the organization itself was and is pushing towards making gay marriage illegal in all states. They were almost solely behind proposition 8 in California, and the massive influx of advertisements clouding the issue to spread their bigotry toward the LBGT community. They are pushing their beliefs into the political sphere, and should have a nice kick in the teeth (again, talking on an organizational/governmental level here) to remind them not to do so.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Here's the real deal: As it turns out, Joseph Smith was a bit hard of hearing. When the Angel Moroni spoke to him this is what really happened -- Smith was walking away muttering "Henceforth ye shall be known as Mormon" -- The angel heard this and responded, but alas Smith was out of earshot as Moroni said, "NO! Moron, ye shall be known as moron!":D

[Prometeo liberado]

Here's the real deal: As it turns out, Joseph Smith was a bit hard of hearing. When the Angel Moroni spoke to him this is what really happened -- Smith was walking away muttering "Henceforth ye shall be known as Mormon" -- The angel heard this and responded, but alas Smith was out of earshot as Moroni said, "NO! Moron, ye shall be known as moron!":D

I gotta back this story up. I have a friend named Larry-the-tree-leaper who told me the exact same story once. I know him from the dog track so you know it's not bullshit. Also he's a deep sea diver so you know he's down.:thumbup1:

[OnlyCommunistYouKnow]

If he's the one responsible for creating Mormonism and all these annoying adds, I want to hit him.