Mormonism and Collectivism/Communalism

[PioneerWorker]

Since I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or informally, a Mormon), I'd like to discuss the Mormon history of collective effort. After all, even modern day Mormonism requires collective sacrifice; all members are required to give up 10% of their income to the church. While nowadays such money goes to quite capitalist functions, in the olden times it was used to benefit all members of the LDS community. And Mormon scriptures are filled with references to "no poor among them" and all that. I'm not exactly communist, but I am leftist, and I'd appreciate a different viewpoint on Mormon history that the Glenn Beck types I always hear. Anyone up for discussing this?

[ChrisK]

Sure I'm up for it. What period exactly did you want to discuss?

[Regicollis]

There are many variants of collectivism in different societies. It kind of shows that people has a natural desire to set up structures that will keep capitalism out of parts of their lives. It might not be full-blown socialism but I think that in some places socialism can be built upon the collectivist tradition already present.

[PioneerWorker]

Sure I'm up for it. What period exactly did you want to discuss?

I'd like to discuss the Joseph Smith period (All of it economically, but specifically the "Law of Consecration" era) and most of the Brigham Young era. I see those eras as showing the potential effectiveness of collectivism.

[eric922]

PioneerWorker, look up the United Order. It was a Mormon project set up by Joseph Smith during the early days of the LDS church. Basically members of the Church would pool their resources and live together communally. Granted, it didn't last, but it does show an interesting side of LDS history. I'm waiting for Beck to start calling Joseph Smith a commie, now. I'm not even Mormon, but its sad when I know more religious history then people like Glen Beck. Here is the Wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order

[Bostana]

I have an aunt and uncle who are Mormon, they're very nice people.

But on the topic at hand,
I think Joseph Smith was not a bad man but not a good one either. Joseph Smith married many women all at once including two 14 year old girls. However I do think he had the idea of setting up a commune-like-society in which people would help each other, everyone is equal, things that a Commune would normally have.
However this was a Mormon right wing Commune not like the Commune they had in Paris.

[Optiow]

Since I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (or informally, a Mormon), I'd like to discuss the Mormon history of collective effort. After all, even modern day Mormonism requires collective sacrifice; all members are required to give up 10% of their income to the church. While nowadays such money goes to quite capitalist functions, in the olden times it was used to benefit all members of the LDS community. And Mormon scriptures are filled with references to "no poor among them" and all that. I'm not exactly communist, but I am leftist, and I'd appreciate a different viewpoint on Mormon history that the Glenn Beck types I always hear. Anyone up for discussing this?
These collective communities, while great ideas need to be linked by ideology. Individual communities, communes, cooperatives etc. are brilliant concepts, but they have to be worldwide to work completely. Mormon collective effort seems like it it was a pretty cool idea, but unless collective effort, equality and a stateless society are worldwide it can never be achieved (and even if by some miracle it is achieved it can never last).

Doesn't the Mormon Church also say communism is a manipulation of the United Order or something?

[eric922]

These collective communities, while great ideas need to be linked by ideology. Individual communities, communes, cooperatives etc. are brilliant concepts, but they have to be worldwide to work completely. Mormon collective effort seems like it it was a pretty cool idea, but unless collective effort, equality and a stateless society are worldwide it can never be achieved (and even if by some miracle it is achieved it can never last).

Doesn't the Mormon Church also say communism is a manipulation of the United Order or something?
Yeah, I think that quote came out during the Cold War from one of the LDS Presidents, but yeah they view Communism as perversion of the United Order.

[eric922]

I have an aunt and uncle who are Mormon, they're very nice people.

But on the topic at hand,
I think Joseph Smith was not a bad man but not a good one either. Joseph Smith married many women all at once including two 14 year old girls. However I do think he had the idea of setting up a commune-like-society in which people would help each other, everyone is equal, things that a Commune would normally have.
However this was a Mormon right wing Commune not like the Commune they had in Paris.
I can never quite decide how I feel about Smith. His marriage to many woman seems wrong to me and degrading to women, especially when they were young, but wasn't girls marrying fairly young a fairly common thing back then? It doesn't really make it right, but I think we have to judge things within historical context. I also can't decide if he believed his story or not. I think in the beginning he made it up, but I do think later on he began to believe his own legend, after all he did go willingly to jail in Missouri when he probably could have fled.

[Bostana]

I can never quite decide how I feel about Smith. His marriage to many woman seems wrong to me and degrading to women, especially when they were young, but wasn't girls marrying fairly young a fairly common thing back then? It doesn't really make it right, but I think we have to judge things within historical context. I also can't decide if he believed his story or not. I think in the beginning he made it up, but I do think later on he began to believe his own legend, after all he did go willingly to jail in Missouri when he probably could have fled.

Well in his defense some of them were husband less and at the time Women needed "protection" and a Husband provided that.

But key point some weren't married.

However there is no doubt in my mind that he was a good man. We may not have the same political views or stuff like that but there was no doubt in my mind that he was a good man.

......Not Better than Stalin of course
:D

[ChrisK]

I tend to view the United Order as an extension of a long history of Christian communes. Going back to the book of acts, it is claimed that the first Christian society was a commune type society.

This is also seen in the founding of America, where the pilgrims attempted to set up a commune at Plymouth Rock. The Quakers also set up a fairly communalist society in Pennsylvania.

Of course, during the English Civil War the Levelers, while not setting up a commune, argued for communism on religious grounds.

[Astarte]

I never had too many sympathies for Mormonism, but after hearing the story of the "Mountain Meadow Massacre" and the LDS penchant for converting the dead my respect for the religious sank even lower.