just one in 10 men do more housework than their partner

[bricolage]

What has 40 years of feminism in the British household achieved? Not much when it comes to dividing up daily chores, a survey has revealed.
Research by the Institute for Public Policy Research thinktank shows traditional gender roles are still alive and well with just one in 10 men doing an equal share in the home.
Eight out of 10 married women do more housework than their husbands with almost half clocking up 13 hours or more a week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2113487/Housework-STILL-womans-job-survey-revealed-just-10-men-more.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Sounds like my PSY101 teacher,"feminism accomplished nothing" etc, etc... I never understood why progressive women like herself rejected feminism (despite embracing it in youth).

Not really surprising as it takes a long time for real change to be seen. Equality is a gradually process and thousands of years of oppression isn't likely to be lifted in a few decades.

[Quail]

I read about this in the guardian. I think that the traditional role of women cleaning and caring for children is very much programmed into people from a young age. The toys that emulate the drudgery of housekeeping are very much marketed at girls (I've been noticing things like this a lot more now that I have a 2 year old son to buy toys for), and also a lot of people grow up in an environment where they see women doing the household chores and childcare all or most of the time. Women need to insist that their partners do an equal share of the housework and children need to be brought up in an environment where everyone does their bit in the house and encourages them to challenge the unequal distribution of domestic labour.

Unfortunately it seems to me that the role models children and young people have (for example, most caring workers are female) and the way that products marketed at children are so ridiculously gendered will make it very difficult to make much progress with this.

Another issue I suppose is that many women don't challenge their partner's lack of help with the housework and some people aspire to be housewives and mothers.

[gorillafuck]

Women need to insist that their partners do an equal share of the housework and children need to be brought up in an environment where everyone does their bit in the house and encourages them to challenge the unequal distribution of domestic labour.unequal distribution of domestic labor is only going to change when distribution of paid labor changes. because as long as paid labor favors males in ability to get employment, it's going to just be a lot more convenient and easier overall for households to have women stay home while men work. and most couples have to have at least one person home if they have a child, unless they can afford a nanny.

[Quail]

unequal distribution of domestic labor is only going to change when distribution of paid labor changes. because as long as paid labor favors males in ability to get employment, it's going to just be a lot more convenient and easier overall for households to have women stay home while men work. and most couples have to have at least one person home if they have a child, unless they can afford a nanny.
Yeah, this is true. In the UK if you're very poor you can get some childcare costs covered, but for a lot of people, unless you're working in a very well paid job, it isn't enough. Having a preschool child in nursery for a day costs £50 per day, roughly.

There are a lot of women in lower paid jobs, and I think that the financial practicalities of having a job and raising a child, housework and child-rearing being seen as women's work and the expectation that women will give up having a serious career when they become mothers are big barriers to changing that.

[gorillafuck]

Yeah, this is true. In the UK if you're very poor you can get some childcare costs covered, but for a lot of people, unless you're working in a very well paid job, it isn't enough. Having a preschool child in nursery for a day costs £50 per day, roughly.

There are a lot of women in lower paid jobs, and I think that the financial practicalities of having a job and raising a child, housework and child-rearing being seen as women's work and the expectation that women will give up having a serious career when they become mothers are big barriers to changing that.the last paragraph doesn't make sense to me. what are you saying?:confused:

[9]

unequal distribution of domestic labor is only going to change when distribution of paid labor changes. because as long as paid labor favors males in ability to get employment, it's going to just be a lot more convenient and easier overall for households to have women stay home while men work. and most couples have to have at least one person home if they have a child, unless they can afford a nanny.

I am not sure that this is really an accurate explanation for the unequal distribution of domestic labor. I am not sure about the figures elsewhere, but incidentally, the American workforce is now majority female. Frankly, I dont know any women who are stay at home mothers. How many working class men make enough money to support a family as the sole earner? I imagine, to the extent that stay at home mothers even exist at all nowadays, they are almost exclusively from the upper classes.

[Quail]

the last paragraph doesn't make sense to me. what are you saying?:confused:
Sorry, I meant that I don't see the distribution of paid labour changing very quickly because:
1. It is expensive to send a child to nursery while you go to work (about £50 per day where I live). Even if you can claim some costs towards that (if you're on a very low income you can claim up to 85% of the costs) it's still not necessarily going to be "worth it" to work.
2. Housekeeping and child-rearing are seen as women's work, so if one partner has to work less to do these things, it's more likely to be the woman. The social norm is that, when it comes to having children, women are the ones that give up work for a while and stay home with the children, which means it's more difficult for women to get into jobs that pay higher wages.

[ParaRevolutionary]

If the woman is at home and the man is working, which is the majority of households, then obviously the woman would be doing more housework.

[gorillafuck]

I am not sure that this is really an accurate explanation for the unequal distribution of domestic labor. I am not sure about the figures elsewhere, but incidentally, the American workforce is now majority female. Frankly, I dont know any women who are stay at home mothers. How many working class men make enough money to support a family as the sole earner? I imagine, to the extent that stay at home mothers even exist at all nowadays, they are almost exclusively from the upper classes.I stand corrected, then.

[9]

If the woman is at home and the man is working, which is the majority of households, then obviously the woman would be doing more housework.

The majority of households?? :confused: Where on earth are you getting your information?

[Ostrinski]

Fuck men

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Fuck men

Fuck patriarchy and Chauvinism; the culture that allows abuse to propagate and thrive.

[9]

Fuck men

Arent you a guy...?

[NewLeft]

Fuck patriarchy and Chauvinism; the culture that allows abuse to propagate and thrive.
You forgot capitalism..

[TheGodlessUtopian]

You forgot capitalism..

That I did, there just seem to be so many things to "fuck" nowadays that sometimes things slip my mind. Oh well...

[Ostrinski]

Arent you a guy...?yes

[9]

:rolleyes:

[Искра]

Well, I guess then I was raised in on of those households where man do more housework than women. I've never considered it weird... my father cooks better than my mother and when he is stressed he likes to clean. I do the same.

Also, I believe that only in US women can stay home. Here, and that same goes for the rest of Europe, women work... or better to say both partners work, because you can not maintain hosehold with one salary. And regarding US I think that this whole women not working thing is only TV show thing.... (of course when I write work here I mean on having a job; just saying this so that male feminists to pick my eyes, like usually, with "housework is work" shit... yeah I know, get a life).

[dodger]

Get the bloody children working. Kick arse. Personally I would rather live in abject squalor than spend a minute doing housework. Only constant nagging or repeated blows from a broom have ever shifted me from that position. My step mother left me an iron in her will. That woman knew me better than I knew myself. She along with an army of wives sweethearts never gave up. I salute every last dam one of them. Particularly her....her last dying wish......one last act of futility. How the hell do you think I got this name D O D G E R

[eyedrop]

I would like a survey for housework share done for the age group 20-30, as they are actually the ones that grew up after the second(?) wave of feminism.

I think a reform like the one Norway had a few years ago where males are obligated to take a big percentage of the 'maternity' leave, and affordable kindergartens. Making fathers take a part of the 'maternity' leave also equalizes the employability of males and females since both are at a risk of 'maternity' leave.

I think having half the baby-carts pushed around by men has done more for changing gender views than everything else I've seen together.

[9]

Also, I believe that only in US women can stay home. Here, and that same goes for the rest of Europe, women work... or better to say both partners work, because you can not maintain hosehold with one salary..

Like I said, it is the same here. I think actually that more women work in the US than in a lot of places in Europe.

[bricolage]

Like I said, it is the same here. I think actually that more women work in the US than in a lot of places in Europe.
I think it's about half of the workforce (http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/02/women-make-up-half-of-uk-workforce/) in the UK.
Although it's worth factoring in that a lot more women work part time jobs than men, so if you were to work out the share of total hours worked, for example, it might be less.

[dodger]

I think certain progressive legislation is called for, it can help, it needs thought, not knee jerk reactions. We badly need clever laws, above all we need a combination that looks at child care, employment and thorough going look into all of our needs as humans. It struck me as strange that a man who leapt out of a plane at Arnhem charged a machine gun nest with gun blazing a grenade in his mouth could not push a pram. Refused, blushed to his roots, dug his heels in and said"NO!"..."NEVER!" Others would not pick up a dish cloth, not until the undertakers required tea. That was in the 60's Scotland. I'm sure it must have changed, never returned , so don't rightly know.

We are all different, my pal cannot keep still, works dammed hard as painter, then he does things around the house, his Thai wife manages the house well works too. I wonder if it is some mental illness? Both my wives were afflicted too. A compulsive disorder of some sort. It's a wonder more don't drive themselves into an early grave. I know my 1st wife did. Do what you are good at, relax, no need for strain or stress. Room needs decorating? I just did some overtime paid a professional to come in. Every couple needs and will find what suits them. Every situation requires its own solution. I bought a dishwasher. Bloke at work said "I'm the dishwasher in my house!" Good for you sir!

[Yefim Zverev]

http://urlybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/women-know-your-place.jpg

[RedAnarchist]

http://urlybits.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/women-know-your-place.jpg

Outside of Chit Chat and Non-Political, could you not just post an image? It's considered spam.

As for the image itself, I wonder if that is an authentic game box? I wouldn't be surprised if it is.

[arilando]

Yeah, this is true. In the UK if you're very poor you can get some childcare costs covered, but for a lot of people, unless you're working in a very well paid job, it isn't enough. Having a preschool child in nursery for a day costs £50 per day, roughly.

There are a lot of women in lower paid jobs, and I think that the financial practicalities of having a job and raising a child, housework and child-rearing being seen as women's work and the expectation that women will give up having a serious career when they become mothers are big barriers to changing that.
Is there really an expectation that women will give up having a serious career when they become mothers in the UK? Is that really true?

[kour]

If the woman is at home and the man is working, which is the majority of households, then obviously the woman would be doing more housework.

That's the problem. Why are men out there doing "real work", while women are in the kitchen making food for the kids?

I think, because of childbirth, it is normal that women are more likely to be "homemakers" than men are, but it is very sad that society expects them to have that role.

Women are just as capable as men are, of being Scientist, Lawyers, and Intellectuals, and men are just as capable as women at doing housework, so why is it that it is so common to see married women stuck with the eternal chore of housekeeping, while married men have unlimited flexibility in deciding what to do with their lives?

[ParaRevolutionary]

That's the problem. Why are men out there doing "real work", while women are in the kitchen making food for the kids?

I think, because of childbirth, it is normal that women are more likely to be "homemakers" than men are, but it is very sad that society expects them to have that role.

Women are just as capable as men are, of being Scientist, Lawyers, and Intellectuals, and men are just as capable as women at doing housework, so why is it that it is so common to see married women stuck with the eternal chore of housekeeping, while married men have unlimited flexibility in deciding what to do with their lives?

Where did i use the term "real work"?

[kour]

Where did i use the term "real work"?

I didn't mean to imply you did.

[Quail]

Is there really an expectation that women will give up having a serious career when they become mothers in the UK? Is that really true?
How many men give up their job to be a househusband when the kids come along? Women are much more likely to work part time jobs. Why do you think that is?

Women are every bit as capable as men, and every bit as capable of having dreams and aspirations. If women weren't expected to stay home and care for their children, why would so many women be working in part time, low paid jobs?

Also consider the fact that women have the right to up to a year's maternity leave, but men are entitled to one or two weeks paternity leave. Childcare in the UK costs roughly £50 a day, and if your partner is working and earning over a certain amount, you wouldn't be entitled to any help with the costs, so for many women, going to work when their child is young isn't worth the costs. It would also mean that both parents "miss out" when it comes to their child's development.

In my opinion, a fairer arrangement would be for both parents to work 3-4 days a week so they both would have the opportunity to look after and bond with the child. Childcare needs to be made more affordable though.

[Luís Henrique]

:rolleyes:
He's obviously trying to get laid...

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Outside of Chit Chat and Non-Political, could you not just post an image? It's considered spam.

This image however seems quite on topic and relevant for the discussion.

Luís Henrique

[Ostrinski]

Indeed.

[RedAnarchist]

This image however seems quite on topic and relevant for the discussion.

Luís Henrique

It is, I was just saying that they could have added their opinion on the picture or something.

[ParaRevolutionary]

I didn't mean to imply you did.

Im not having a go, im just asking a question. Personally i think women should be allowed to do anything men can, from manual labour to CEOs to combat jobs in the military.

[StalinFanboy]

the italian feminists in the 70s were on to something...

destroy the family

[Lynx]

My mother would do most of the housework in part because she couldn't tolerate a mess. This was the main reason her housework "strikes" never changed anything.

Sometimes my father would spend an entire day cleaning the house. He said he did this because he was displeased with how my mother kept the house. Yet most of the time he didn't seem to care what state the house was in!

As for myself, I have a high tolerance for messiness and no interest in aesthetics.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

the italian feminists in the 70s were on to something...

destroy the family

I've never understood this hatred of the nuclear family among some elements of the left.

Yes, destroy patriarchy. That makes sense because it is the obvious starting point of the 'women = homemakers'-type sexism. But 'family' has existed in some form for a long, long time. In the early-modern period, when Capitalism wasn't really entrenched, those who lived in rural settings often had larger families that included domestic workers, slaves, servants etc., i.e. they were thought of as 'family', not just 'live-in' workers.

Why would we want to destroy the family? It's not only undesirable on a human level, but it's probably the biggest propaganda own goal we could ever score...all it does is re-inforce the idea of Socialists as wanting to take peoples' children away and put them in state care, to grow up within the ideal of 'Socialist Man' and other similar bullcrap.

Just leave people alone. Fight sexism. Fight discrimination and patriarchy. But just let people do what they wanna do, otherwise you'll soon find your experiments will fail. Learn from history on this.

[Ostrinski]

Am I gonna be dragged to a labor camp after the revolution if I'm caught telling my grandmother I love her

I am nervous

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I've never understood this hatred of the nuclear family among some elements of the left...But 'family' has existed in some form for a long, long time.
You're right, family has existed in some form for a long, long time, but the nuclear family is a particular form of family which became viable under capitalism. It's a specifically bourgeois formulation of family. As such, why shouldn't communists criticize it or imagine that the smashing of bourgeois society will create new forms of family?

[manic expression]

How many men give up their job to be a househusband when the kids come along? Women are much more likely to work part time jobs. Why do you think that is?
Well, men are more and more giving up their jobs to be househusbands, and a lot of mothers choose to work part-time in order to raise their kids better. If parenthood is differentiated biologically then it isn't such a surprise that it is so socially. Only when working full-time isn't a necessity to support a family will this be able to change.

[moulinrouge]

What people are forgetting is that many woman don't have a problem with doing most of the housework.

The liberation of woman is letting them do what they want, not forcing them to do the same as men do.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What people are forgetting is that many woman don't have a problem with doing most of the housework.

So is that why my mother and father are constantly fighting about who does what?


The liberation of woman is letting them do what they want, not forcing them to do the same as men do.

I agree that if for whatever reason women who enjoy being a housewife want to be a housewife than that is what they should do. I still believe that most women do not enjoy being a housewife, and would much rather have a career and life, and that such an option is still ultimately part of patriarchy (though a feminist comrade can correct me if I'm wrong).

[moulinrouge]

So is that why my mother and father are constantly fighting about who does what?

I do not know your parents so i can't awnser your question.




I agree that if for whatever reason women who enjoy being a housewife want to be a housewife than that is what they should do. I still believe that most women do not enjoy being a housewife, and would much rather have a career and life, and that such an option is still ultimately part of patriarchy (though a feminist comrade can correct me if I'm wrong).

Most woman i know don't want a full time job under capitalist exploitation they'd rather be a housewife and have a part time job so they have more free time.

I think this is because woman prefer their partner and children above the capitalist who exploits them.

[Raúl Duke]

I grew up in a family where the reverse is the norm, my dad ends up doing most of the chores (cooking, cleaning house, etc) usually...although things might have change since my mom is now retired (my father still has to go to his job).
My grandmother in my mother's side would tell us that when she was a child growing up she was the "laziest in the family."

In fact, while the patriarchal cultural norm tends towards viewing normal the man being taken care of by the wife in terms of housekeeping and cooking (for example, my grandfather on my mother's side could barely take care of the house/himself/making food because he had my grandmother do all that before) I grew up viewing that arrangement abnormal and even pathetic/in opposition to my notions of being a man.

My point being is that the distribution of housework (the household environment, plus the environment in society; for example I view the idea of women doctors and engineers to be normal, but other persons oddly don't, since in Puerto Rico many women study engineering, about 50% of the student body in the engineering program is female I heard)) can have a cultural/social affect on children. I bet people who grew up with the woman doing all the housework unreflectingly view that arrangement normal and/or can also affect in how they percieve the worth of women (i.e. I knew a guy who had sexist notions about women and labor; "didn't think it's normal for things like woman doctors or engineers." His mom was a housewife).

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What people are forgetting is that many woman don't have a problem with doing most of the housework.
And that has nothing to do with cultural programming about what a woman's role is?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And that has nothing to do with cultural programming about what a woman's role is?

Not to mention that the laws on maternity leave and the undoubted bias of employers against women of a certain age being employed in certain professions means that, even if women hypothetically were happy to be housewives, they should at least have the option of following the same path as their male counterparts.

Currently they do not have that freedom.

[R_P_A_S]

correct me if I'm wrong.. but isn't the Dailymail the equivalent to the New York Post?

[Rafiq]

If the family is retained, it must be entirely different.

And, children would have to be raised more on the public level, i.e. Parents shouldn't be able to fully raise their kids like they do now.

This will sound crazy, orwellion and obscene, but, I remember someone telling me how in East Germany teachers would ask children if their parents were committing crime. At first we find this horrific, but I think something from this should be preserved: The giant link between the public and the family life, i.e. An abused child should regularly be pressured to "turn in" their parents, despite the indoctrination.

Also, children cannot be isolated from society at will of parents. Yup, no home schooling, no "You can never leave the house besides school" rules, etc.

You get the idea.

[manic expression]

And that has nothing to do with cultural programming about what a woman's role is?
Are you saying that all of it is "cultural programming"?

[Grenzer]

You're right, family has existed in some form for a long, long time, but the nuclear family is a particular form of family which became viable under capitalism. It's a specifically bourgeois formulation of family. As such, why shouldn't communists criticize it or imagine that the smashing of bourgeois society will create new forms of family?

There is also the agrarian extended family situation, are you against that too? It seems like some people in this thread are obsessed with controlling the nuance of peoples' personal lives, which is a bit disturbing. Why not just let the new family forms emerge organically rather than forcing ideals onto people? Surely they'd emerge with the end of sexism.

We should try to stay out of peoples' personal lives as much as possible, but I agree with Rafiq that maybe some modifications are needed since as it is; children in poor home situations rarely will let the proper authorities know about it.

It seems like some on the left are quite keen on playing up to the hysterical Cold War stereotypes of control. Not even Stalin was up on this kind of shit.

It's absolutely important to end sexism and achieve gender egalitarianism, but the kind of puritanical zealotry some people display in thinking that all existing structures are necessarily bad and people have to be changed by force is mistaken in my opinion. With that said, I don't think the nuclear family is inherently bad, but I do think that model is unfairly forced on people by societal norms.

In some ways, the matter of state atheism is somewhat analogous to this.

EDIT: I thought I'd clarify that by nuclear family I mean parents and their pre-adult children. Is there anything about the nuclear family that necessitates the woman as a homemaker? If so then I stand corrected.

[bcbm]

Are you saying that all of it is "cultural programming"?

the idea of women staying at home and men being breadwinners is entirely socially constructed, yes.

[manic expression]

the idea of women staying at home and men being breadwinners is entirely socially constructed, yes.
What of the biology of parenthood? Mothers raising their children full-time cannot be completely disconnected to the fact that mothers carry what becomes those children in their bodies for months. Being a mother and being a father are two different roles as constructed by biology.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to be worth consideration.

[bcbm]

What of the biology of parenthood? Mothers raising their children full-time cannot be completely disconnected to the fact that mothers carry what becomes those children in their bodies for months. Being a mother and being a father are two different roles as constructed by biology.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to be worth consideration.

the idea of mothers 'raising children full time' is relatively recent in human history. historically child rearing was generally a communal practice, then gradually became more and more a 'mother's role' as the nuclear family coalesced in the 16th-18th century and the pattern of women being in charge of the home and men working outside evolving in the 19th century. even then childrearing among those who could afford was often delegated to servants.

[manic expression]

the idea of mothers 'raising children full time' is relatively recent in human history. historically child rearing was generally a communal practice, then gradually became more and more a 'mother's role' as the nuclear family coalesced in the 16th-18th century and the pattern of women being in charge of the home and men working outside evolving in the 19th century. even then childrearing among those who could afford was often delegated to servants.
True enough. Still, childrearing has been more the role of the mother long before the 16th Century, no? Even if an affluent mother could pay for a wetnurse and so on she was still seen as having oversight of it, I think.

[ParaRevolutionary]

the idea of mothers 'raising children full time' is relatively recent in human history. historically child rearing was generally a communal practice, then gradually became more and more a 'mother's role' as the nuclear family coalesced in the 16th-18th century and the pattern of women being in charge of the home and men working outside evolving in the 19th century. even then childrearing among those who could afford was often delegated to servants.

A communal practice among the women of the community.

[bcbm]

True enough. Still, childrearing has been more the role of the mother long before the 16th Century, no? Even if an affluent mother could pay for a wetnurse and so on she was still seen as having oversight of it, I think.


A communal practice among the women of the community.

child rearing tended to be sex segregated in many societies actually, with female children raised by women and male children by men.

[manic expression]

child rearing tended to be sex segregated in many societies actually, with female children raised by women and male children by men.
Which?

[bcbm]

greek roman norse in later we have sex segregated education (or none at all for women) and division of labor from an early age

[manic expression]

You consider education the same as parenthood? Of course boys were taught by men in those societies, but that does not confer upon those teachers the role of parent.

Anyway, moulinrouge speaks sense above, in that if a woman wants to be a mother as her main job, let her. If she prefers housework to working away in some capitalist workplace, likewise let her. My only concern is that everyone have the dignity to determine the course of their own life, and that applies to those who desire motherhood just as equally.

[bcbm]

You consider education the same as parenthood? Of course boys were taught by men in those societies, but that does not confer upon those teachers the role of parent.

education, especially if we are talking in the context of long periods of separation from one or both parents (parents were not necessarily uninvolved in this process) is part of childrearing, yes.


Anyway, moulinrouge speaks sense above, in that if a woman wants to be a mother as her main job, let her. If she prefers housework to working away in some capitalist workplace, likewise let her. My only concern is that everyone have the dignity to determine the course of their own life, and that applies to those who desire motherhood just as equally.

i don't think anyone is suggesting people shouldn't be free to make their own choices.

[manic expression]

education, especially if we are talking in the context of long periods of separation from one or both parents (parents were not necessarily uninvolved in this process) is part of childrearing, yes.
Education for a certain portion of the population doesn't contradict familial habits otherwise.

[Quail]

Anyway, moulinrouge speaks sense above, in that if a woman wants to be a mother as her main job, let her. If she prefers housework to working away in some capitalist workplace, likewise let her. My only concern is that everyone have the dignity to determine the course of their own life, and that applies to those who desire motherhood just as equally.
The only thing to consider here is how "free" is the choice to be a housewife/mother? Social pressures and expectations take away some of the freedom that we have in making decisions.

[Lord Testicles]

The only thing to consider here is how "free" is the choice to be a housewife/mother? Social pressures and expectations take away some of the freedom that we have in making decisions.

How can you/Can you tell the difference between someone who genuinely would like to be a housewife/mother and someone who does it because they are caving into social pressures and expectations?

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I´m proud to be one of those 10 percent, I do far more housework than my girlfriend. But I´m not here to brag:D. I would love to be a fulltime "househusband"/father as a only occupation (and do a little bit of writing now and then), but I doubt contemporary capitalism will offer me the choice to do so.

[Quail]

How can you/Can you tell the difference between someone who genuinely would like to be a housewife/mother and someone who does it because they are caving into social pressures and expectations?
I don't think you can really tell the difference. You couldn't pick someone out and say, well she caved to x and y social pressure and became a housewife. I think it's drilled into us from a very young age that we should aspire to be a mother (maybe not so much a housewife). Just thinking back to when I was younger, the toys that were/are still marketed at girls tend to be ones that imitate the role that women traditionally take, and films, tv, etc. often show women in the role of mother and homemaker. Children are exposed to pressure to behave a certain way based on their gender from such a young age that I don't think anyone is immune to social conditioning. I'm a feminist and I still feel pressured by social norms, even though I know that they're bullshit.

[The Jay]

I don't think you can really tell the difference. You couldn't pick someone out and say, well she caved to x and y social pressure and became a housewife. I think it's drilled into us from a very young age that we should aspire to be a mother (maybe not so much a housewife). Just thinking back to when I was younger, the toys that were/are still marketed at girls tend to be ones that imitate the role that women traditionally take, and films, tv, etc. often show women in the role of mother and homemaker. Children are exposed to pressure to behave a certain way based on their gender from such a young age that I don't think anyone is immune to social conditioning. I'm a feminist and I still feel pressured by social norms, even though I know that they're bullshit.

I completely agree, but I think that we can only take people at their word in regard to what they want to do with their life. You know what they say though: after the revolution a new culture will come. That culture, I think, will be less restrictive on social roles.

[manic expression]

I don't think you can really tell the difference. You couldn't pick someone out and say, well she caved to x and y social pressure and became a housewife. I think it's drilled into us from a very young age that we should aspire to be a mother (maybe not so much a housewife). Just thinking back to when I was younger, the toys that were/are still marketed at girls tend to be ones that imitate the role that women traditionally take, and films, tv, etc. often show women in the role of mother and homemaker. Children are exposed to pressure to behave a certain way based on their gender from such a young age that I don't think anyone is immune to social conditioning. I'm a feminist and I still feel pressured by social norms, even though I know that they're bullshit.
One thing to remember is that at least in much of the developed world, girls are not so forced into acting "girly"...the sheer amount of young girls playing sports and going to institutions of higher education (at a higher rate than men in the US) today might be enough to suggest that. Even in societies that have gotten rid of sexism and gender gaps in most categories (Cuba, for example), what we might consider feminine behavior hasn't been eradicated by any means.

If anything, popular TV and movies have heavily blurred and weakened traditional gender roles over the past decades. As just one more visible example, female displays of overt sexuality (for no real point other than selling stuff, I might add) are exceedingly common (http://www.amazon.com/Female-Chauvinist-Pigs-Raunch-Culture/dp/0743284283/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1333633786&sr=1-1), and this would be more likely to encourage behavior that runs in almost diametrical opposition to those social norms you allude to. Social conditioning, then, is far from a unified force with uniform effects.

[bcbm]

Education for a certain portion of the population doesn't contradict familial habits otherwise.

pre-19th or really 20th century education was different than today and when it involved separation from one or both parents, i would consider this part of child rearing.

[Firebrand]

My parents came up with a simple solution. Child labour :D.

[homegrown terror]

my girlfriend and i do about equal amounts. if i could do more, i would because she's disabled and can old do physical work for so long at a time, but working (except when i'm unemployed) takes a big chunk out of my available time.

[Zav]

Fuck men
Is that a suggestion?



Most woman i know don't want a full time job under capitalist exploitation they'd rather be a housewife and have a part time job so they have more free time.

I think this is because woman prefer their partner and children above the capitalist who exploits them.
No one I know wants a full time job under Capitalist exploitation, because they want more free time.

I think this is because Capitalism sucks.

That generalization you made is equivalent to saying that women belong in the home taking care of children. How misogynistic of you.

[homegrown terror]

I do not know your parents so i can't awnser your question.




Most woman i know don't want a full time job under capitalist exploitation they'd rather be a housewife and have a part time job so they have more free time.

I think this is because woman prefer their partner and children above the capitalist who exploits them.

i think that applies to just about all of us, regardless of gender. if someone would pay me to stay home and play with my son all day, that might be a capitalist venture i'd be behind (kidding)