Plato

[Monty Cantsin]

Plato is often thought of as a founder of western thinking. Though his ideas include a cast system were ever one will “mind there own business” sticking to there roles and class in life. This system is not totally based on natural skill because people born into the business class can not became guardians. A system in which the ruling class the philosophers Control the information that people have access to and how they are educated. (he believed we are creatures of our environment)

But then other influences he has passed down are the way to construct arguments and the use of rhetoric.

So what I propose to you is a discussion on the man and his influences on western thinking, what ideas have stayed with us and which one's left behind??

[Umoja]

You gotta loooove Gnosticsm. He was one of the big thinkers for it, especially in "Allegory of the Cave". That's the only thing I really respect from him, most of his other stuff was garbage.

[Monty Cantsin]

What do you like about Gnostic Beliefs?? So matter is evil and made by a lesser god. Humans contain a divine spark that came from the ture god. Oh yer and christs body was an illution.

[honest intellectual]

The more philophy I study, the more it seems that every argument comes back, sooner or later, the the concept of the 'world of ideas'. I really don't agreee with any of his social/ political philosophy. Ah, fuck I'm too lazy to post anything detailed on this right now. I'll be back.

[Zorio]

Actually Plato writes in the Republic that you can change classes, you are not stuck with the class of your parents, you are assigned either Gold, Silver, or Bronze status based on what ever natural abilities you show.

[redstar2000]

The best discussion of Plato that I've come across is Karl Popper's The Free Society and its Enemies.

Written during World War II, the book documents Plato's fascism at considerable length...all of the "ideas" of fascism can be found in Plato's works.

As to his "spiritual" ideas, he admits that he makes them as he goes along...to fool the vulgar masses.

A total asshole.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Monty Cantsin]

Zorio where in the republic does it say you can change your class in society?? The way I read it was that you were made with either traces of gold, silver or bronze (guardian, auxiliaries, business) which the gods gave you. therefore your class can't be changed.

[Zorio]

Not that you can change classes, but that it is not based on lineage. You are born with a set of skilels, we all are. The skills you are born with dictate which class you are assigned after birth. It has nothing to do with whatever class your parents are because in Plato's ideal society peoples parents and children are anonymous, everyone who breeds during a certain period is considered a parent to that group of children.

Also, the point is that you won't want to change classes. All classes are deemed equally important. You are assigned a class based on what you are good at, the way they figure is that if you're good at doing something then you will enoy doing it. This makes some sense in that if you can accomplish something then you will feel better about yourself for being able to do it. There are people however who feel they should be able to do whatever career they feel like. This would not work in Plato's society because if someone is doing a poor job of something it will not benefit the society. The point of Plato is for everyone to work for the state and the betterment of society rather than for themselves.

I don't see Plato as promoting fascism, more an authoritarian style government. His point is that most authoritarian governments are led by those who are power hungry or in it for the money, where HIS authoritarian government is doing it for the right reasons. It's hard to swallow, and it is idealistic but it makes some sense.

I'm not saying that I agree with Plato, at least not entirely. I'm just saying what I've thought of him since I began studying philosophy.

[Monty Cantsin]

It’s good that you clarified what you’re saying about class changes. But ill look it up to make sure on what the truth of the matter is.

But as for Plato influencing fascism I don’t see why not, his idea of government was extreme authoritarian. Just as was Hitler, both wanted to control religion and information to shape people into his idea of a perfect being. Plato wanted to control when people could preform sexual acts to control the population also who they could mate with and at what age they could mate.

But as you said what were his intentions for the good of the community or for some individuals. Well the ruling class was just as controlled as every one else even more so. But the main thing we have to remember is that people don’t have to right to chose there own path. So depending on your own views lies wrather a good society or a oppressed controlled society.


One more thing I thought of do you think Plato with the idea of division of labour into different tasks was an influencing factor on Adam smith (founder of right wing economics)?

[Pete]

Plato influenced a large part of the Renasiance and Scientfic Revolution thinkers, through Neo-Platonism. This also seeped into the Church. I believe it is based on the forms theory that our world is a distorted view of perfection.

[Rasta Sapian]

" A man's life should be spent at play" i like this quote :)

[Monty Cantsin]

Crazy Pete you said “Neo-Platonism. This also seeped into the Church” explain what your mean, David Bowie could have influenced the church. So could you explain how you feel they have influenced the church through neo-Platonism?

rasta sanian the quote was “A man's life should be spent at play” nice thought but I don’t think its influenced anything, people working Nike(and other t.n.c) sweatshops work 14 hour day(45c a day). This applies because Plato believed that women should preform the same work as man even if they are a lesser sex (his thoughts not mine). So this rases the question how as Plato or western thinking affected eastern thinking??

[Umoja]

Neo-Platonism is about self-discovery, and "finding yourself". Most people would identify this with Buddhism, but the Protestant movement (when compared to Catholicism) has quite a bit of "Neo-Platonic thought" involved in it.

[Pete]

Crazy Pete you said “Neo-Platonism. This also seeped into the Church” explain what your mean, David Bowie could have influenced the church. So could you explain how you feel they have influenced the church through neo-Platonism?


I always got the idea in all my courses that the idea of the forms was used to justify the existance of heaven as the perfect place, and that since the sky was perfect that was where heaven had to be. That one of the reasons why Galileo's work was criticized so much, he was able to prove that the moon and sun had blemishes, and thus where not perfect like the church said.