FARC

[Guest1]

I've been utterly confused by FARC for a long time now. On the one hand, they call themselves Marxists, and Fight the CIA and the Columbian government. On the other, they seem to run like a drug cartel, complete with assasinations, intimidation, car bombings, etc... I've read a few leftist journalists' reports about them, and they seem to agree they know little about Marxism, or Che who they hold as a hero. A leftist friend of mine from Columbia once told me they murdered her relatives. She was pretty supportive of socialism, so no chance of a rifght-wing bias there.

My question is this, what is your opinion of FARC, and what do you know about it? Links would be greatly appreciated, as I need to make up my mind about this for myself too. Are they a Marxist revolutionary movement with a bad rap?

[Bastardo]

I think any organisation whether they consider themselves Marxist, Socialist, Anarchist, whatever, who force kids into their army are not my ideal. There again I don't live there so who am I to judge?

Likewise with the economic situations that make certain crops more viable. This is often used as an excuse but generally in most of the Andean regions coca cultivation has been a viable reality. Having said that, government herbicidal attacks on large areas of land force people into guerilla controlled areas and certain groups obviously take advantage of this. Coca growers who tried to change to yucca and corn had their land destroyed by random chemical fumigation by the American backed military, which then forced them into the hands of drug barrons who were then taken over by FARC. The aggressive anti-drug campaign which began in 1990 has done what? The land used for coca cultivation has actually increased from 30,000 to 100,000 hectares (approx 3 million acres).

Who do we blame? Farc? They are fighting a war. An army of peasants/working class. Forced into slavery by evil capitalist middle-class exploiters who are the leaders of FARC?? I doubt it, that's far too simple. More like victims of circumstance. The Yanks? They are imperialist scum trying to dictate Americanisation to their neighbours(IMO). The peasants/working class sadly are as always stuck in the middle.

There are a lot of dipshit Marxist idealists out there though who read text books and attack every other movement, especially those in active struggle, not really having a clue what they're talking about.

The South American 'brand' of Marxism is full of divisions which is fairly understandable considering the vastness of the place and the CIA managed stooges everywhere. The apparant 'uniqueness' of the Cuban Revolution, as it is 'marketed' over here ( I'm in the UK ), is percieved very differently by the numerous guerillas on the South American continent. Just because many groups claim to be Guevarist means nothing. Guevarist thinking can be on a political level or on a militarist level, more often than not only on a philosophical level. What I mean is one group defining themselves as Guevarist can be very different to another claiming to be the same.

At the end of the day war is war and shit happens...there's fuck all good about it.

If you want to know more about them you could email them? You'll normally get a reply within a week if it doesn't get redirected by the Yanks. ;)

That doesn't mean I support them or not. My attitude towards politics is, if you want to find out how people tick...get it from their own mouths. It doesn't take too long to work out what's going on!

Hope this helps in some way, still drinking celebrating the Salonika 7 being released yesterday ( although their struggle continues.. http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/ )

I'm sure I'll be shouted down within minutes by one particular intellectual giant mind on here though! ;)

http://www.farcep.org/

[Saint-Just]

FARC are against the drug trade, they tax cocaine farmers and use the money to further their cause. I cannot comment on terrorist activities they undertake. Some information has made me think they are politicised, to what extent that is I do not know. You do well being cautious of imperialist information you have encountered.

[redstar2000]

It's awfully easy to "take people at face value" when you're not there, don't read the language, have no independent and reliable sources, etc.

For example, does FARC "force kids into their army"? Says who? Why?

Is FARC "involved in the drug trade"? Says who? Why? And, a matter I don't think I've ever seen discussed, why shouldn't FARC be involved in the drug trade? What's so bad about drugs?

And here's another consideration: whenever a group engages in guerrilla warfare, how long do they stay "political"? How long before their lack of success causes demoralization and they degenerate into banditry?

For what it's worth, as long as FARC is attacking U.S.-owned oil pipelines, that's a direct attack on U.S. imperialism.

And you shouldn't have any problem figuring out my view on that. :D

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A site about communist ideas

[Bastardo]

FARC are against the drug trade, they tax cocaine farmers and use the money to further their cause.

With respect, how then are they against the drug trade?



Something of interest on the subject of children in Farc-EP

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/


and a bit on pipe-line attacks...

http://www.newint.org/issue361/moths.htm ;)



For what it's worth, as long as FARC is attacking U.S.-owned oil pipelines, that's a direct attack on U.S. imperialism.

And damn the Colombian working class, they're just collateral damage?


Like I said I'm neither for or against Farc-EP but my allegiance has to always be with the oppressed working class who ever the perpetrators of the oppression are...

[redstar2000]

And damn the Colombian working class, they're just collateral damage?

Well, then, what would you have me say?

Shall I go to Colombia and "straighten those people out"? Teach them the "right way" to conduct their struggles?

I'm sure I could give them lots of "really good advice". I just have this feeling that they're not interested in my opinion.

Maybe not yours, either.

Let's assume the human rights watch report is accurate. Most of the kids who join the FARC and the ELN are volunteers, right? The young women who join are treated more or less equally, right?

Here's one thing I didn't notice in the summary (maybe it's mentioned in the full text): what kind of political education do the kids get? Are the FARC and the ELN making any serious effort to teach these kids what they are actually fighting for?

Did the human rights watch people even bother to ask the kids any "political" questions?

Or is politics, like war, "out of bounds" for anyone under 18?

As to the pipelines, I would rather the FARC and the ELN keep blowing them up...and if they can kill some American mercenaries in the process, all the better. But I can understand why they would prefer to extort money from the U.S. oil companies if they can...they (supposedly) have a revolution to make.

It's hardly a matter of "damn the Colombian working class" and I frankly don't even understand what you are trying to say here.

The FARC/ELN decide and they haven't solicited my "advice".

You say that you neither support nor oppose them...a position that would be rather difficult to maintain if you were actually there. But that also describes my position: my supposition is that if and when the FARC/ELN actually win, they will impose a Leninist dictatorship that will pave the way for a modern capitalist state in Colombia.

It's what peasant revolutions do.

To the extent that such a change will serve to weaken U.S. imperialism in the western hemisphere, I'm in favor. As to the intricacies of their internal politics, I am neutral.

There is no real communist alternative there...and consequently, nothing for me to support.

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The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Soviet power supreme]

The FARC is world's largest guerilla group.What I remember that it contains 10000 soldiers.I'm not sure though.
Now tell me how do you think that they support that army if they stop selling drugs or kidnapping foreign tourists?

[Saint-Just]

They don't force young people into their army, young people join it. They join it for a better life, for food and shelter and perhaps to escape sexual abuse. They oppose hegemony in South America so we must support them.

[YKTMX]

Sounds like a lot of crazy bollocks to me.

[Bastardo]

Chairman Mao


They don't force young people into their army, young people join it. They join it for a better life, for food and shelter and perhaps to escape sexual abuse. They oppose hegemony in South America so we must support them

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/

I would suggest a good read of the link I posted re. kids forced into FARC. There is a bit about sexual abuse to. Hate to break any illusions. It's like Jesus isn't it or the Shroud of Turrin! You explain to them the shroud can't be real but they just wont have it will they... :rolleyes:




REDSTAR


You say that you neither support nor oppose them...a position that would be rather difficult to maintain if you were actually there.

Mmmm, well I lived and taught in Bogota between 97-99. That doesn't count though does it ;)

[redstar2000]

Mmmm, well I lived and taught in Bogotá between 97-99. That doesn't count though does it...

How would I know? You keep making cryptic (and slightly reproachful) posts without making your views really clear.

If you "really" think that the FARC/ELN are a bunch of bastards, what is lost by saying so plainly? If, on the other hand, you think they are the "revolutionary future" of Colombia...why not say so?

And if you believe that they are completely irrelevant and the future in Colombia lies with other elements altogether, then why not say that?

Your experiences "on the ground" in Colombia are obviously relevant...though you made no reference to them.

You were there...what do you think about what you saw?

That it's all "a terrible tragedy", period?

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The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 04:39 PM
Chairman Mao


They don't force young people into their army, young people join it. They join it for a better life, for food and shelter and perhaps to escape sexual abuse. They oppose hegemony in South America so we must support them

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/

I would suggest a good read of the link I posted re. kids forced into FARC. There is a bit about sexual abuse to. Hate to break any illusions. It's like Jesus isn't it or the Shroud of Turrin! You explain to them the shroud can't be real but they just wont have it will they... :rolleyes:




REDSTAR


You say that you neither support nor oppose them...a position that would be rather difficult to maintain if you were actually there.

Mmmm, well I lived and taught in Bogota between 97-99. That doesn't count though does it ;)
Mmmm, well I lived and taught in Bogota between 97-99. That doesn't count though does it

yeah, where else you been?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, I'm rather supportive here, I go on the philosophy of creating and defending the revolution by any means possible, short of a Pol Pot/Stalinist style eradication of everyone and everything that happens to be a threat or course. Even if they do force people in, I think its for a good cause. I highly doubt they use conscripts though, such soldiers are have weak (if any) ideological convictions and would not risk their lives for those of their comrades, and would even go so far as betray them. Regular armies can force conscripts and traitors in and force them to fight for their own survival with a virtual prison system to ensure that they do not harm their own army, however, this is not the case with a guerrilla force that I doubt has permanent facilities, and must blend in with the rest of the population when they are in urban areas. Kidnappings, bombings, assassinations, they are the only way that a guerrilla force can combat a far more ruthless enemy, since a Blitzkrieg into Bogata isn't exactly an option for 10,000 rough n' tumbles. Weather they carry out what needs to be done this way, or if its Blitzkrieging into Bogata, as long as they get the job done, thats all that matters.

[Guest1]

well... redstar and bastardo are a pretty good example of why I can't figure out FARC. I support the attacks on the US operations in colombia, be it oil, or narco-oppression. but I still hear alot about human rights abuses and harm to the civilian population. alot of that is likely a media shroud of fear cast over them to create support for the government and the right-wing paramilitaries are just as guilty, if not more so of the same abuses, but I still can't get over the nagging feeling that the situation on the ground now is a reflection of what the situation would be if FARC ever came to power.

so I guess my questions are now:

1) is FARC guilty of the same crimes as the right-wing thugs?
2) does the end justify the means?
3) what does this end look like for FARC, what vision do they have?

[Bastardo]

Redstar

Well I think the situation is awful. The reason I say that is because I don't see that any of the different factions have any intention of giving up what they have got. America is trying to make an example of Colombia and are pouring massive amounts of money in to support right-wing instituations and they will not stop.

In terms of Farc-EP and the ELN they are working togethor at present but have had conflict with each other, because they are very different organisations. I don't believe that either of the groups are trustworthy enough or capable of creating a decent and secure environment for the working class as they stand and in the forms they are at present. I see the potential for just another group of bosses waiting to take power with their own armies. I DO think there are people within these groups though that could unify the various guerilla movements working throughout the whole of the South American continent, which I feel is the way forward, for instance those that pushed for an alliance between the two main guerrilla groups. This needs a consensus of politics and stratergy by a unified working class on the continent, which I feel is non existant at present. Too many groups with their own agendas. Yet the enemy is the same.

In terms of life in Bogota I dont know of another city that has more contrasting extremes. It is a beautiful place and has a lot of wealth..for the few. Poverty and crime is everywhere and the violence the working class has to live with is pure terror. You don't look out of the windows and be aware that there is a major war going on but it is felt even in the cities. It takes the form of high levels of violent crime and a constant feeling of fear. The middle classes can hide away in their little world and pretend that the war isn't happening but they are permenantly on their guard. They are always worried about bombings and kidnappings. The working class, whether or not they will wake up the next day...literally!

The children in Bogota ( I was working with middle-class kids with dyslexia and volunteering with a Catholic charity called St.Vincent de Paul helping poor children ) are like children everywhere where there is conflict. They just want it to end and don't understand why everyone can't get along. :( Sadly 'childhood' for the poor ends many years before it does for the middle-class kids for obvious reasons.


You keep making cryptic (and slightly reproachful) posts without making your views really clear.


Apologies, wasn't my attention, hope I've made it more clear what I think of FARC-EP and ELN and the reasons why I tried to explain I had no opinion on them as such.

Enigma

Lagos, Nigeria and New Delhi.

Your views on FARC please?

[Comrade of Cuba]

Its not because they caal themselves communist, marxists or socialists. In my opinion they are imperialists who just chose El Che as their "logo". :angry:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 04:39 PM
Chairman Mao


They don't force young people into their army, young people join it. They join it for a better life, for food and shelter and perhaps to escape sexual abuse. They oppose hegemony in South America so we must support them

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/

I would suggest a good read of the link I posted re. kids forced into FARC. There is a bit about sexual abuse to. Hate to break any illusions. It's like Jesus isn't it or the Shroud of Turrin! You explain to them the shroud can't be real but they just wont have it will they... :rolleyes:
From the link:


Girls sometimes join to escape sexual abuse at home

Shocking!


(Females) had roughly the same duties and possibilities of promotion as males.

So much for a progressive movement.


rape and overt sexual harassment are not tolerated

Henceforth I will withdraw my support of FARC!!

[Bastardo]

Well you obviously have taken a thorough look through that whole site then haven't you! ;) :rolleyes:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia09...3/10.htm#_Toc37 (http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/10.htm#_Toc37)

In fact they're so wonderful that Human Rights Watch are only covering them for the wonderful contribution they bring to class struggle.


They don't force young people into their army, young people join it. They join it for a better life, for food and shelter and perhaps to escape sexual abuse. They oppose hegemony in South America so we must support them.


So you support everyone who is opposed to America then such as Al Quida?

Blind Faith...excellent! :rolleyes:

Or maybe Human Rights Watch are a CIA front? ;)

[Saint-Just]

Its hardly surprising for that to occur in a developing society. In terms of relationships with young girls that is also disgusting, you can expect similar in Colombian society. Your accusations are pathetic and your original accusations were overblown.

The bottom line on FARC is what the source notes; that rape and sexual harassment are not tolerated. You are blatently an agent of imperialism. That is as disgusting as any incident of rape or sexual harassment.

[Bastardo]

You are blatently an agent of imperialism. That is as disgusting as any incident of rape or sexual harassment.

You need a good fucking kicking to teach you some manners!

[Bastardo]

Chairman Mao


Its hardly surprising for that to occur in a developing society. In terms of relationships with young girls that is also disgusting, you can expect similar in Colombian society.

What the fuck does that mean Comrade?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 03:59 PM
Chairman Mao


Its hardly surprising for that to occur in a developing society. In terms of relationships with young girls that is also disgusting, you can expect similar in Colombian society.

What the fuck does that mean Comrade?
One would expect rape and sexual harassment to occur in a developing society. Incidences are likely to be frequent. Would you disagree? What that source showed is that Colombia has a rather patriarchal attitude towards sex and relationships, as a result sexual oppression is common.

FARC is an army that obviously has a far stricter discipline that ordinary Colombian society, however it obviously does not escape some of the ill acts that go on in Colombian society. As it is an army of over 15,000 men and woman you would surely expect that some of the behaviour would mirror some of the abhorrent behaviour that exists in Colombian society at large. FARC evidently has a strict discipline and rape and sexual harassment, as the source says, are not tolerated. However, to some extent it still goes on because of the difficulty of policing the army and because of lack of discipline.

Since FARC does not condone these acts and since such acts occur in Colombian society you cannot write-off FARC as a corrupt political entity, nor can you criticise the political nature of the group on the grounds that it is unable to prevent all these incidences.

Thus I would conclude your criticism is unreasonable and the sole purpose of your criticism is as imperialist propaganda. This is why I call you an agent of imperialism.


You need a good fucking kicking to teach you some manners!

I agree that my comment was harsh and inflamatory. However, I have never said such a thing previously on Che-Lives but I regard this situation as deserving of it and I maintain my judgement of you as an individual who seeks to propagandise for imperialism inside the leftist movement.

[Bastardo]

Chairman Mao


I agree that my comment was harsh and inflamatory. However, I have never said such a thing previously on Che-Lives but I regard this situation as deserving of it and I maintain my judgement of you as an individual who seeks to propagandise for imperialism inside the leftist movement.


You my friend are quite clearly an arse . And do you always talk like that or is it some kind of training you get in SWSS or REVO? Grow up you sound like a member of the Tooting Popular Front. If you can't have a debate about FARC in a constructive manner without hurling that kinda of crap about like you just did...FUCK OFF!

I suggest you read my posts again more thoroughly and sort your idealist rubbish out.

As for your shite about a developing society I think you should stick your middle-class bull where the sun don't shine.

Failing that find someone to fill your big mouth in...

[Guest1]

Chariman Mao, those accusations are uncalled for. I specifically asked for info about FARC's human rights record, and bastardo provided one side of that. FARC is obviously not a black or white organization, many people have some issues with them. Bastardo has a right to be one, as do I if I so decide.

[Saint-Just]

I was unaware that this may not have been a criticism of FARC, if so I apologise. Regardless, you had no reason to antagonise me about my view of FARC if you do not think their human rights record has much to do with the political nature of their struggle. I believe you should have never posted information regarding their human rights record when it is of no significance because it is nothing out of the ordinary.

I am not suggesting that Colombia is not a magnificent country with a great culture. However, economically it is a developing nation. I misled you in terms of calling their society developing. What I meant was that their society is within the framework of a developing economy.

You are calling my views 'idealist', this is an absolute nonsense. My views are hardly idealist are of the left are far less idealist than most views on the left.

I retract my statement about you being an agent of imperialism since I was looking at your post on the human rights record of FARC as pure criticism, which is was not. I think your approach to political questions leaves something to be desired since you don't actually elucidate on the political nature of your views.

You seemed to take offence that I said rape and sexual oppression occurs in Colombian society, I would suggest that there are few socities in the world that avoid these things. The greatest problem Colombia has is imperialist infection and status as an oppressed state.

[Bastardo]

Chairman Mao


I think your approach to political questions leaves something to be desired since you don't actually elucidate on the political nature of your views.


That'll be because I come from a part of the left that does not profess to have all the answers. It's all very well spouting a party line but it doesn't get you anywhere, just stops you from actually hearing or reading what other people have to say. I would've thought the Class War avatar would have given it away though...

Thank you for the apology.

[YKTMX]

I would've thought the Class War avatar would have given it away though...

Not really. Who the fuck knows what "Class War" believes in apart from slagging off the "Trots". Oh, and annual riots, brilliant.

[Bastardo]

Not really. Who the fuck knows what "Class War" believes in apart from slagging off the "Trots". Oh, and annual riots, brilliant.


Whatever you say buster, but this is a thread about FARC.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 09:20 PM

Not really. Who the fuck knows what "Class War" believes in apart from slagging off the "Trots". Oh, and annual riots, brilliant.


Whatever you say buster, but this is a thread about FARC.
Yeah, but it seemed to have degenerated into a slagging match and I thought you were getting off a bit lightly.

[Bastardo]

;)

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 12:46 PM
Enigma

Lagos, Nigeria and New Delhi.

Your views on FARC please?
I do not know enough to judge the FARC, though their involvment with the drug trade, and other oppressive practices, puts me off. However like I said, I dont know enough to judge.