will the world just become communist?

[Anarchist Freedom]

will the world become communist without revolution? You see i think almost that since our society in the world is sooo left leaning it will eventually slowly but surly become communist. how you ask lets see if kennedy rose from his grave today he would call the republicans liberals and the democrats extreme liberals. you see if our world is left leaning will time just eventually work its way into a communist state by nature? without revolution or bloodshed or death? i want to hear your opinions.





:che:

[BuyOurEverything]

no

[Monty Cantsin]

you think republicans such as bush are lefties omg.

[SonofRage]

no

[Anarchist Freedom]

ha no
you see if kennedy were alive today he wouuld call the republicans liberal because he was such a liberal back in his day. see times change and the world is every day more and more left leaning because the right doesnt work thats just my idea

i know there is one philosopher who has thought of before i know it!




:che:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

NO!Things just don't "happen" like that.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The bourgeoisie will never give away its power. Why would they do that? Why would they destroy what gives them power? They certainly don't have to. Whether or not things are shifting to the left, the bourgeoisie's power remains untouched.

[YKTMX]

:unsure: No.

[Al Creed]

no
non
nyet
nien

[Comrade Ceausescu]

nem(hungarian)

[Desert Fox]

nee (dutch)

[Mike Fakelastname]

No (Spanish)

:D

[lostsoul]

guess i'm the only black sheep who thinks yes it is possible without a big revolution.

as the rich gets richer..and the poor gets poorer more people will become more leftist, soon after the rich will have no choice but to embrace socialism.

another possible thing i have been thinking about lately, is that as the empires(america) lose power, they will not be able to enforce their will on other nations as effectively. One they can't support the upper class of other nations, then the poor will take control and hense make the once "powerful" nations weak, since their power is based on enforcing their will on weaker nations.



i dunno..maybe i'm just fucked up, but thats what i think. Although we have to work for revolution, i really think it will come sooner or later for sure, their is no escaping it..maybe or maybe not in our lifetimes though :( but it will happen


revolution just means change...so if socialism is to come, of course it will be a change.


socialism is the natural evolution for the human species. there is no doubt in my mind about this.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 08:34 AM
soon after the rich will have no choice but to embrace socialism.


What have you been smoking comrade :-)

[Maynard]

Indeed Desert Fox , My sentiments exactly. It's somewhat mystifying that anyone believe the bourgeoisie will simply hand over power if enough people what it. When have they ever served the majority interest ? Why would they give it up ? What historical precedent is there ? Of course they aren't going to want to give there power away. This is taking belief in humanity a bit too far. The bourgeoisie serve and only will serve minority interests or there own interests till they no longer exist. When has exploitation just gone away naturally ? They see nothing wrong with what they are doing, in fact they believe it's a good thing, relying on their "conscience" to get to them seems wishful thinking.


see i think almost that since our society in the world is sooo left leaning it will eventually slowly

The world is left leaning ? What ? Have I missed something but I could have sworn that the world is run by the bourgeoisie and the governments who are sympathetic , protect , part of or encourage there interests. It seems to me on a purely economic basis the world is further to the right than ever.


how you ask lets see if kennedy rose from his grave today he would call the republicans liberals and the democrats extreme liberals
I don't see how the Democratic party has ever been particularly left wing. I am interested how you came to this conclusion, what has happened that has made the Republican and Democratic party shift further to the left ?


Revolution is whatever form it takes inevitable, as far as I am concerned but to think that the ruling classes will hand over there power seems the work of fantasy.

[lostsoul]

the way i figure is, is as the right gets more extreme they not only isolate themselfs, but they have to destory each other also(thats the nature of the right, to exploit anyone..including their own class if they can). This will isolate them more and more.

Once they are hugely out numbered and the people relize this, i think the dissatisfied people will start to help each other and look after each other's intrests.

maybe your right and its just wishful thinking.

i don't know about revolutions, in the old sense, being effective anymore. The Russian and Chinese both seemed great, but counter-revolutory's such as kruschev and deng, so i am re-thinking its effectiveness.



The world is left leaning ? What ? Have I missed something but I could have sworn that the world is run by the bourgeoisie and the governments who are sympathetic , protect , part of or encourage there interests. It seems to me on a purely economic basis the world is further to the right than ever.

your right when thinking of goverments, but have you not seen people exhabit acts of kindness before? people look at the news and think america is not jusified in its actions? etc... i don't know, i consider anyone who cares about someone they don't know to be left leaning. the right side either doesn't care or encourages things that will profit itselfs.

althought they will have to push their luck alot and it will take time, but i do socialism will slow take over. many countries have already embraced some socialist things in their countries(like in canada, our medical system), as the situation gets worst, people will see more of this in other area's of the country.

[Maynard]

No, No. What you are saying is consistent with my view of what will happen, it's just the terminology that they will "hand over the power" is where I somewhat differ in my thinking.
I am relative new to Marxism / Communism / Socialism. I was a social democrat till around a year ago, so by no means take my opinion as a truly well educated one.
I do believe it is true that the ruling classes will go "too far" in the minds of the proletariat
with the overthrow of the government coming soon after. What I am saying though, is that we cannot believe they will simply give up on there power, so the proletariat
must be prepare to use force if necessary. Though if it's an overwhelming majority perhaps they will concede power but I wouldn't count on it.

As for rethinking it's effectiveness, I agree with that. I am yet to formulate a position on the transitional phase from capitalism to communism or whether there needs to be one.


your right when thinking of goverments, but have you not seen people exhabit acts of kindness before? people look at the news and think america is not jusified in its actions? etc... i don't know, i consider anyone who cares about someone they don't know to be left leaning. the right side either doesn't care or encourages things that will profit itselfs.
I have but I wouldn't say that caring about people is exclusive to leftists. Conservatives can be "nice" and "care" about people they don't know or foetus that aren't even people yet :) nor do I think they have even increased recently. Self interest is loved and encouraged by capitalists. I think it'll take more than being nice to achieve our goals.


althought they will have to push their luck alot and it will take time, but i do socialism will slow take over.
Yeah but haven't countries such as Canada embraced NAFTA, WTO, Supported imperialistic wars as well ? I think the trap for leftists is to be content with some socialist measures because it may be better than other countries. We should never be content with the current system while under capitalism rule.
I am glad my country (Australia) has universal health care as well and I'd fully support efforts for it to be put in place in such countries as the US

[Bolshevika]

Revolution against the capitalist system is inevitable. It'll be a bloody revolution too, the oligarchs aren't going to give up easily.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 04:40 PM
Revolution against the capitalist system is inevitable. It'll be a bloody revolution too, the oligarchs aren't going to give up easily.
when i want to hear that sort of stuff, bolshevika, i'll read a book. really, stop quoting stuff. that's for sigs and if you're going to elaborate on any points. so if you post that, back it up with something coming from your own head....

[Rasta Sapian]

The possibility of socialism through democracy, could arise though a liberal majory in government, where leftist policies could be implimented, however capitalism would still remain intact. Therefore appearing more communist via public services and anti trust legislation limiting impirialist pigs. however, some nations seem to be leaning more to the right, ie. USA, becoming more capitalist and greedy. The only way world socialism could appear without a revolution would be through education, which unfortunalty is not reaching the masses in most nations.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

That is not happening, when a ruling right wing government is threatened by left wing revolutionaries, the answer is simple fascism, stop oppressing the oppressed and just made a big ditch, line em' up in front, and shoot.

[lostsoul]

Maynard, thank you for your informative comments on my post. I agree with what your saying, and 2 months ago i would have agree 100% with the fact that change cannot happen without voilence. But after thinking, reading and seeing things around me i am starting to disbelief that old way of thinking.

i went to a socialist/communist meeting at a local unervistiry and the people i spoke with's entire thinking was build on voilenent revolution. I don't know..i guess reading it on the net didn't effect me compared to hearing someone say it. It got me thinking and i started to read many posts on this site, and i notice many many people focus too much on the fighting then to what the actual fighting will result in.

i agree with lenin when he said that war is as much a part of capitalism as peace, but i don't think war is part of socialism. The aim of socialism is to keep peace, and enrich the people's livies, so how can killing our brothers and sisters reach that goal?

from india, egypt, venezuela to even recently georgia, its appearent that revolution can come without blood.

people fight when they are desprate and cornered, we are not in a postition in which we can lose, so why is fighting nessary? of course they will be people who wont' accept the change, and they can either leave the country or if they wish to cause trouble, then they can go to jail.

fighting is not practical anymore. When the Russian and Chinese revolutions happened, were they not in the middle of great wars? imperialist were too busy fighting each other to figure out what was going on and stop it. Right now, if we start fighting, no matter how much imperialist hate each other, they will join up and crush socialism.


i don't know if this makes sense, i have only been playing with this thought recently and haven't had alot of time lately to study socialism and verify this idea as possible.


take care

[Comrade of Cuba]

I think that some countries will slowly become communist. But some not, eg:USA, UK, Japan,... But the best way, in my opinion, to get a communist world is to found a new internationale and start The Revolution. :rolleyes: I think that it would be possible in a few years. :hammer:

[Misodoctakleidist]

I think it's possible that some counties could become communist without a military revolution, when you look at the massive opposition to the iraq war in Britain its unlikely that would have occured in the same situation 50 years ago but public opinion had become more left wing, what is considered unacceptably right wing today was perfectly accetable to the majority of people in the recent past. In counties like britain where there isn't poor enough living conditions to spark armed revolution public opinion will slowly shift left untill capitalism become unacceptable to the general public. The Blaire governemnt may be moving to the right but their policies are facing mass opposition.

[dannie]

for what i have read and seen i don't think we can accomplish socialism/communism without armed struggle, maybe the mass is becoming more leftist, but so is the face of the right wing, if a wolf cant catch a sheep, he will wear a sheapskin to get it. f.e. the belgiun neo-facistisic party "vlaams blok" was convicted some years ago for being racistic, but today it's the largest party here just because they've changed their party-program to a more central one, but study shows it is the same as when they started, they just make it look like it's not

what i am trying to point out is that the masses can be fooled, a lot of central-leftists vote for vb because they cannot see vb is extreme right. they are not afraid to be hypocrits to achieve their goals. to rip the mask of the right wing, arms can be neccesairy and will most likely be neccesairy, as the mass will start getting lefter and lefter the right's face will change too

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

My question is...WHY would you need armed struggle to institute socialism/communism? If its what the people want, they'll welcome it! No need to force them into doing something they don't want. I don't think communism (the way it is written out) will EVER be able to take hold anywhere...absolute power corrupts absolutely. No one man will EVER be able to govern a communist country without turning it into a mess. A system of checks and balances however.....maybe that way perhaps.

[dannie]

but it is not the revolution which fights against the people but against the instituted powers whick exploit the people,

history shows that when people are not ready for revolution it wil fail or there isn't any revolution at all (the stick with ché: bolivia, congo ...)
it is not the people that are being enforced a system upon, the people instate it themselves because they are the revolution

[suffianr]

If its what the people want, they'll welcome it! No need to force them into doing something they don't want.

The problem is, most of the time, people don't know what they want, and even if they do, most of them aren't the slightest bit aware of how to go about it...

[Hawker]

No.Why?Because history time and time again has shown us that no government can change without a civil war or any form of bloodshed.The only way to change a government is with a bullet.

[opie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 11:35 PM
No.Why?Because history time and time again has shown us that no government can change without a civil war or any form of bloodshed.The only way to change a government is with a bullet.
glorious revolution

not a single drop of blood shed

[Monty Cantsin]

I have always thought of a revolution as a change, it doesn’t have to be for better it, doesn’t have to be violent, its just a change. “will the world just become communist” without a revolution no.

[hazard]

there are many ways to implement a societal change without resorting widescale bloodshed and mayham. of course, widescale bloodshed and mayham is the preffered route. however, for the weak willed of us out there, yes, the world will eventually just drift into a communism of some kind or another. this is because of the inherent nature of capitalism. one company buys another. and another. until eventually there is only one company. and that company will either be taken over the governemnt, or vice versa. and thus; communism.

I'd prefer avoiding centuries of global bloodshed and get it over with in one shot. sorta like taking a bandaid off or jumping in the pool. the slower it goes, the more painful it is.

but the sweet exctasy of the pain! the wait! oh God, just...a...little..slower...

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 06:30 PM
WHY would you need armed struggle to institute socialism/communism?

You’ve make a valid point. Want we need for anything to change (I’ve said it once and ill say it again) is a cultural change people have to stop being apathetic towards real issues around the world. Maybe armed revolution is a good way to wake people up, but it doesn’t have to be that way in Chile in the 1970 there was elected Marxist in government. So the U$A killed him flew planes where he was staying and bombed the place (Very brief description look it up). So the only thing capitalist have against Marxist is how they come to power mostly through armed revolution. They only thing I have against current Marxist is there authoritarian approach to governing the people.

[shakermaker]

well, I believe that only way to create communistic/socialistic country/world is revolution!


glorious revolution

not a single drop of blood shed
revolution is revolution only by fighting, every peacefull power-taking is not a revolution.....you know what I mean? <_<

[Comrade of Cuba]

You can&#39;t have international communism without The Revolution, the people that are now oppressed will always be oppressed, untill The Revolution. :hammer:

[CommieKiller]

So what happens to those who rebel against you and don&#39;t want communism? I would really appreciate it it The Anarchist Tension would answer this. Since he said and I quote:

"since when was dictatoship, oppression, genocide and totalitarianism been traits of communism..."

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Oxi (Greek)

Oi (Cypriot)


These facists will never willingly stop exploiting people.