Anti-Zionism

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

With the recent news of Israel preparing for potential air strikes against Iran, I have been caught between an ideological rock and a political hard place. I definitely stand against Israeli imperialism, I have no doubts about that, yet I feel almost shocked by the radical anti-Zionism I have heard and seen recently, particularly in communist circles that I am part of. I feel that Israel should have the right to be a state, despite the fact that I never agree with their government, foreign policy, international relations, or treatment of Palestinians. I feel that if there were only one Palestinian state, as some radical anti-Zionists suggest, the Jewish population would be greatly displaced. I know that there is much historical evidence on why Israel should have never become a state, but it is a state now, and why should we be so intent on changing that fact. I am not that informed on the topic, but I know that many people say that Zionism is illegitimate because it is trying to give a historical homeland from thousands of years ago back to a people that have not been there ever since. I am not a Zionist, but I stand for a bilateral agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority that will still retain the State of Israel, if that is indeed what the Israeli people want. Anti-Zionists, please tell me why you believe what you believe. I want to hear the different opinions because it seems that my support for the existance of the State of Israel is the minority in the revolutionary left.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Jews should have every right to move, live in, and be equal economic and political participants in whatever governing body exists in Palestine, and so should Palestinian Arabs. Zionism is predicated on a supposed superior right to sovereignty over that area for Jewish people in particular. This is why Jews have a right to move to Israel from anywhere and gain Israeli citizenship, while Arab refugees who fled in the 40s and their descendants cannot. Socialists should oppose all forms of nationalism, especially explicitly exclusionary ones. That said, one should also ensure that the rights of Jews in Israel and other areas are not denied, either, and that not all Jews are lumped in under the "Zionist" banner.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

I guess the sharing of the nation between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government under one flag would make for the best solution. Freedom of movement and settlement and the freedom of self-determination. This would include the individual governments having autonomy over their own populations.

[GoddessCleoLover]

As a matter of first principle I don't support either Zionism or Arab nationalism. Both are run-of-the-mill bourgeois nationalisms that are fundamentally oppressive to the working class. OTOH a bilateral agreement between the state of Israel and the PNA would serve as a step forward from the status quo. As long as the Israeli people want to keep their state, as a practical matter they cannot be forced to confederate with their neighbors, and given the hostility of Islam to the Jewish people, this transitional period would continue until the rights of all parties are protected. Arabs have to come to the realization that the vast majority of the people of Israel were born there, and false labels such as colonialist or settler have to be rejected. The question of Israel is one where the ultimate solution will be difficult and require time and patience.

[Ostrinski]

No state has the "right" to exist.

[Grenzer]

Zionism is a form of nationalism, and should be opposed. Easily it's the most damaging thing that has happened to the Jews since the Holocaust. They had the world's sympathy, but they squandered it all by fucking over the people of Palestine and kicking them out.

I consider myself to be an anti-Zionist, so hopefully this will clear a few things up. The state of Israel shouldn't have ever come to exist since it necessarily involved the displacement of many, many people. However, this does not mean that I am for the destruction of the people of Israel. They're there, and even though it's illegitimate it would be absurd to say that we should strive to kick them all out. A close analogy is the case of European settlers of the Americas. Obviously only an idiot would suggest that all people of European descent should be kicked out(like the Maoist-Third-Worldists for example). At the end of the day, Zionism is illegitimate because it's nationalism, just as all forms of nationalism are illegitimate. It is important that we not become hung up on Zionism and condemn it at the exclusion of condemning other forms of nationalism. The government of Israel should be condemned as the ultra-nationalist imperialist piece of shit it is, but it is important to the support the workers of Israel just as we do everywhere else.

In my opinion, no revolutionary should support the existence of a capitalist state. We stand for the destruction of all capitalist states. I assume you are more referring to those who actually call for the destruction of not just the state of Israel, but the Israeli people at the hands of Arab nationalists though, and I do not think this should be supported as it only perpetuates the cycles of hatred and violence which have led to this situation to begin with.

I really do think that in many cases, anti-Zionism, a legitimate position IMHO, is used as a smokescreen by certain organizations to advance policies that would be disastrous for the Israeli workers and could be considered anti-Jewish.

Keep up the good threads man. You're asking some very interesting and thoughtful questions.

[Kitty_Paine]

All nationalism does, in any form, is serve to divide people and create "differences" between people through illusions of superiority, national "duty", debt to your country and wacky patriotism. Really, I should die for my great nation because of the amazing life and opportunities its given me? That's not a cause to die for or to kill for. Its an illusion, seperating us from people. We already alienate ourselves from people enough based off of stupid reason, we don't need another one. Seems people loose contact with whats really important, people not flags. If you're going to dedicate yourself to something let it be humanity, not for the ideals of some rich men who relax under a banner and tell you to die with honor for their flag.

So yeah... Zionism is fucked up as well as Arab Nationalism.

[eyeheartlenin]

Isn't the problem with Israel the fact that its emergence as a state involved the involuntary displacement of the Palestinians through violence by the Zionists, a movement of European settlers?

And wasn't that a process in which the Palestinians had their country stolen from beneath their feet, leading to the result that the existence of the Zionist State of Israel means the permanent negation of the legitimate rights of the Palestinians to have their own country? I believe that is why revolutionaries oppose Zionism and Israel.

Another consideration is the role that Israel plays in the Middle East, as a reliable ally of imperialism, with constant attacks on the Palestinians, as in the three weeks of bombing of Gaza by the Israelis, beginning on December 27, 2008, to take a random example.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I agree with Grenzer's point that both North and South America were settled as well. Nonetheless, as of today the clear majority of Israelis were born there not elsewhere. In addition, the large Sephardic population of Israel are descended from Jews who were pressured to migrate from Arab countries where they are unwelcome. What is to be the fate of these folks who have ho place to go other than Israel?

[eyeheartlenin]

Gramsci Guy wrote about the Sephardim in Israel:


In addition, the large Sephardic population of Israel are descended from Jews who were pressured to migrate from Arab countries where they are unwelcome. What is to be the fate of these folks who have ho place to go other than Israel?

I am not an expert on the topic being discussed, but I have read that Jews lived among Arabs without a problem, until 1948, when the displacement of the Palestinians took place.

Surely it was predictable that setting up a Jewish state in the heart of the Arab East, through immigration and attacks on an Arab nationality, the Palestinians, would provoke a state of permanent conflict. It seems reasonable to conclude that Israel's existence means unending war.

[~Spectre]

Anti-Zionists, please tell me why you believe what you believe. I want to hear the different opinions because it seems that my support for the existance of the State of Israel is the minority in the revolutionary left.

No state has a right to exist, and we should not want to support any capitalist state.

That said, the usual leftwing Anti-Zionist position is "right of return for Palestinians, plus full and equal voting rights". Which would mean the end of Israel as a zionist state.

[~Spectre]

The colonialist part of present day Zionism is more about the settlements and evictions of Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza (in addition to Israeli adventurism that flirts with the idea of colonizing places like the Sinai and Lebanon).

That's a slightly different form of nationalism, in that there have been almost zero successful annexations of colonial territory in the post WWII period.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I would like to separate into two discreet issues (1) the ultimate fate of the Zionist/nationalist entity called the state of Israel from (2) the fate of its citizens. I don't intend to convey any love for the state of Israel, for it is a bourgeois nationalistic entity that has been extremely oppressive to the Palestinians. OTOH I care a great deal about the fate of the Jewish people who live in Israel, and favor ironclad assurances that they will not fall victim to either reactionary Islamic regimes or equally reactionary Arab nationalistic regimes.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

The ideal situation in Palestine right now would be one, secular state rather than either Israel or Palestine, in my opinion at least.

[GoddessCleoLover]

That would be ideal, but perhaps there will have to be a series of interim steps aimed toward building the confidence of the Jewish and Arab people in each other so that they could co-exist within one secular state at some time.

[~Spectre]

I would like to separate into two discreet issues (1) the ultimate fate of the Zionist/nationalist entity called the state of Israel from (2) the fate of its citizens. I don't intend to convey any love for the state of Israel, for it is a bourgeois nationalistic entity that has been extremely oppressive to the Palestinians. OTOH I care a great deal about the fate of the Jewish people who live in Israel, and favor ironclad assurances that they will not fall victim to either reactionary Islamic regimes or equally reactionary Arab nationalistic regimes.


The propositions are linked. If demographic predictions hold true, then either:

1) Israeli Arabs will outnumber Israeli Jews, and vote out Zionism.

or

2) Israel will abandon democracy, and morph into some kind of Jewish theocratic state, in which they enact a "final solution" to the Arab question, and repress all Israeli leftists.

[~Spectre]

That would be ideal, but perhaps there will have to be a series of interim steps aimed toward building the confidence of the Jewish and Arab people in each other so that they could co-exist within one secular state at some time.


Gideon Levy (Israeli dissident), disagrees with your assessment of Arab opinion. He thinks Arabs are perfectly willing and capable of coexisting in a secular state with Israel.

Plenty of Arabs already peacefully coexist with Israel in a Jewish state!

The problem is that the people with all the guns will not allow "the interim steps".

[TrotskistMarx]

Look, I think that the problem of US presidents is a problem of inferiority complex, feelings of inferiority. And I think that the only solution i see for Obama is to go to Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com and buy and read most of the books of Nietzsche, and the book "Awaken The Giant Within" by Anthony Robbins, in order to elevate his low-self esteem.

According to a video I saw some months ago by Qaddafi. In that speech Qaddafi was talking about that Obama suffers from feelings of inferiority and low-self esteem, because he is a black person, with a black family ruling a white-fascist-racist anti-black people, anti-spanish people, anti-muslim people empire. And that's like if a member from The Black Panther Party moved to a neighborhood full of members of The American Nazi Party.

Indeed, it must be not a *piece of cake* and a walk in the park to govern the the monster of USA for Obama, married to a black lady, with black children. It is safe to assume that the USA is still full of deep-rooted fascism-racism even racism against rich black people, who are members of the ruling class, but blacks. And to add more problems you have the hegemony of the Zionist Power Configuration within the US government.

Ruling the beast of USA must not be easy, you have lots of power-centers, lots of mafia-cartels, feudalist-cartels within the ruling class of America (Zionist Power Configuration, The Large Stock Owners of the 500 Largest Corporations, The Petroleum Cartel, The Medical Industrial Cartel, The Military Industrial Cartel. There are lots of cartels that are like sort of legalized mafia-rings, that act as power centers that exercise power over the US president and US Congress.

And I think that this is one of the main reasons of why Obama, Bush and most US presidents are so servants so psychologically enslaved toward the state of Israel. Toward the capitalist system and the large stock owners of the 500 Multinational Capitalist Corporations (The backbone of US capitalism), toward the Military Imperialist wing of the US government, and toward the capitalist oligarchic class of the owners of Wal Mart, Exxon, Shell, Goldman Sachs etc. etc. etc. !! In other words all US presidents wether they are black or white, have lots of *power centers*, *cartels* *lobbying firms* *legalized mafia rings* over them, telling them what to do.

And I think it is fair to assume that all other capitalist governments of the world are like that. I mean the president and congress being ordered what to do by the capitalist power centers and capitalist lobbying groups.


.



With the recent news of Israel preparing for potential air strikes against Iran, I have been caught between an ideological rock and a political hard place. I definitely stand against Israeli imperialism, I have no doubts about that, yet I feel almost shocked by the radical anti-Zionism I have heard and seen recently, particularly in communist circles that I am part of. I feel that Israel should have the right to be a state, despite the fact that I never agree with their government, foreign policy, international relations, or treatment of Palestinians. I feel that if there were only one Palestinian state, as some radical anti-Zionists suggest, the Jewish population would be greatly displaced. I know that there is much historical evidence on why Israel should have never become a state, but it is a state now, and why should we be so intent on changing that fact. I am not that informed on the topic, but I know that many people say that Zionism is illegitimate because it is trying to give a historical homeland from thousands of years ago back to a people that have not been there ever since. I am not a Zionist, but I stand for a bilateral agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority that will still retain the State of Israel, if that is indeed what the Israeli people want. Anti-Zionists, please tell me why you believe what you believe. I want to hear the different opinions because it seems that my support for the existance of the State of Israel is the minority in the revolutionary left.

[GoddessCleoLover]

There also seems to be a problem with Israeli public opinion. Ultimately I agree with you and Gideon Levy but the process is likely to be difficult and take some time.

[TrotskistMarx]

Wow, what the heck? Zionism is plain evil. "Zionism" is just another name for the mass-murdering of inocent palestinians, using the billions of dollars that we americans donate to the killer state of Israel. So thanks but no thanks

.



Jews should have every right to move, live in, and be equal economic and political participants in whatever governing body exists in Palestine, and so should Palestinian Arabs. Zionism is predicated on a supposed superior right to sovereignty over that area for Jewish people in particular. This is why Jews have a right to move to Israel from anywhere and gain Israeli citizenship, while Arab refugees who fled in the 40s and their descendants cannot. Socialists should oppose all forms of nationalism, especially explicitly exclusionary ones. That said, one should also ensure that the rights of Jews in Israel and other areas are not denied, either, and that not all Jews are lumped in under the "Zionist" banner.

[TrotskistMarx]

Some guy here said that nationalism is good. What the hell is that? nationalism is plain evil. Look at Arizona how evil that state is, and the states near Mexico. And Zionism is plain evil. Socialists are supposed to be internationalists, not nationalists. Nationalism and patriotism are fascist evil crazy ideologies

.



There also seems to be a problem with Israeli public opinion. Ultimately I agree with you and Gideon Levy but the process is likely to be difficult and take some time.

[revhiphop]

Zionism should be resisted. Israel/Palestine should be replaced with a secular state. Having a Jewish state is like having a Jewish tree, it just doesn't exist. Granted I side more with the Palestinians, but I don't think groups such as Hamas or Fatah should have power. (Not saying all Palestinians support either of them, just don't like either of them)

[blake 3:17]

I would like to separate into two discreet issues (1) the ultimate fate of the Zionist/nationalist entity called the state of Israel from (2) the fate of its citizens.

When you refer to citizens am I safe to assume you mean Jews in Israel?

Israeli citizenship law is profoundly and explicitly racist.

[TrotskistMarx]

Gramsci: I think that the evil mainstream media of Israel is like the evil media of USA, that injects people with nationalism and patriotism sentiments. I've said in other comments that love blinds people from the seing the truth. Those unconditional feelings of love toward their own country by Israelis. And here in USA how americans are flag-wavers and all that is really an impediment for americans to vote for the Green Party, for any anti-war candidate. And I think that the nationalism patriotism ideology are really used so that the majority of mind-controlled TV slaves keep voting for pro-war imperialist evil politicians like Netanayu, Obama, Bush and Mitt Romney.

Something has to give !!


.



There also seems to be a problem with Israeli public opinion. Ultimately I agree with you and Gideon Levy but the process is likely to be difficult and take some time.

[Tovarisch]

I'd like to see Palestine and Israel overthrow their right-wing leaders, and morph into one state. Young Palestinians and Israelis are already showing that they can co-exist peacefully. It's just the right wing leaders who are forcing their damn nationalist beliefs on everyone. A new left-wing government should be established, one which provides equal rights for Israelites and Palestinians. The potential oppression of either group could be stopped through a strong constitution

I think the argument that the Jewish-Palestinian state should be abolished and the Jews should move elsewhere is stupid. Israel is the only backup plan people of Jewish descent have. Jews in the 1930's certainly thought that Germany was a safe and progressive country. What makes us think that the next president of America doesn't turn out to be a genocidal anti-semite? For all we know, America could be the homeland of its own Holocaust in twenty or thirty years

[TrotskistMarx]

You are 100% correct. I think that well zionism was a progressive ideology. But I think that zionism has evolved into an evil ideology for Israel and Palestine. the zionism of today is evil, imperialist, pro-capitalism, oppressive, abusive, immoral, anti-human and destructive !!

thanks


.



Zionism should be resisted. Israel/Palestine should be replaced with a secular state. Having a Jewish state is like having a Jewish tree, it just doesn't exist. Granted I side more with the Palestinians, but I don't think groups such as Hamas or Fatah should have power. (Not saying all Palestinians support either of them, just don't like either of them)

[TrotskistMarx]

You are right, and I think that the whole middle east section of the world needs a Federation of workers socialist states ruled by workers. Africa and other parts of the world as well.

But you know, most people in this world are mind-controlled by the capitalist TV news, capitalist movies and capitalist music and capitalist art. thanks



I'd like to see Palestine and Israel overthrow their right-wing leaders, and morph into one state. Young Palestinians and Israelis are already showing that they can co-exist peacefully. It's just the right wing leaders who are forcing their damn nationalist beliefs on everyone. A new left-wing government should be established, one which provides equal rights for Israelites and Palestinians. The potential oppression of either group could be stopped through a strong constitution

I think the argument that the Jewish-Palestinian state should be abolished and the Jews should move elsewhere is stupid. Israel is the only backup plan people of Jewish descent have. Jews in the 1930's certainly thought that Germany was a safe and progressive country. What makes us think that the next president of America doesn't turn out to be a genocidal anti-semite? For all we know, America could be the homeland of its own Holocaust in twenty or thirty years

[eyeheartlenin]

The propositions are linked. If demographic predictions hold true, then either:

1) Israeli Arabs will outnumber Israeli Jews, and vote out Zionism, or

2) Israel will abandon democracy, and morph into some kind of Jewish theocratic state, in which they enact a "final solution" to the Arab question, and repress all Israeli leftists.

Israel does not have to "morph" to become a theocracy. History shows that Israel is, and has been, a theocracy, almost since the Zionist state was founded in 1948.

In the elections to Israel's first Knesset (legislature), in 1949, the United Religious Front, a coalition of four parties representing Judaism, won 16 seats, and entered the first Israeli government, led by Ben Gurion.

(Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrachi_(political_party) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1949)


MAFDAL, NATIONAL RELIGIOUS PARTY (NRP)
Leader: Yitzhak Lévy
The National Religious Party succeeds in 1956 to the former Mizrahi (acronym of Merkaz Ruhani or « Spiritual Center ») and represents a nationalist or modern orthodox nationalist religion. It is a mixed party, with Ashkenazi and Sephardic and it is the most important religious party. Since its creation [i.e., since 1956], it has been the partner of all government coalitions ...

Source: http://www.medea.be/en/countries/israel/religious-parties-in-israel/

[GoddessCleoLover]

TrotskMarx; Antonio Gramsci's writings on the sources of bourgeois cultural hegemony are very interesting, and even when he wrote the Prison Notebooks back in the 1930s Gramsci realized the importance of the media in shaping a cultural hegemony that affects the entire society. In the case of Israel, in addition to your valid points there is the additional problem that some extremist Islamic elements favor the creation of a theocratic state that would be extremely oppressive to Jews. The ideal solution to this problem is clear, but how to get there involves many difficulties.

[~Spectre]

Israel does not have to "morph" to become a theocracy. History shows that Israel is, and always has been, a theocracy, almost since the Zionist state was founded in 1948.

In the elections to Israel's first Knesset (legislature), in 1949, the National Religious Front, a coalition of four parties representing Judaism, won 16 seats.

(Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrachi_(political_party) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1949)



Source: http://www.medea.be/en/countries/israel/religious-parties-in-israel/

That's not really a theocracy. In Liberal democracies, even colonial racist ones, parties can run on religious platforms (like the Republicans in the U.S.), from inside a secular framework. The laws can still be enforced by secular court systems,etc.

I get what you're saying. Israel was never fair to Israeli Arabs, that cannot be disputed.

But Israel was however founded by many Atheist Jews, who didn't much care for theocracy (or other Jews for that matter).

It can get much worse, which is what some inside Israel call for. Indeed, those who want to take away Palestinian rights, will be the first to take away the rights of their fellow Jews.

[Tovarisch]

Ironically, Israel is a theocracy, but Judaism was (and is) a largely secular religion. Israel represents Judaist beliefs about as well as North Korea represents communist beliefs

People are not just born nationalist, it is drilled into their heads during childhood. If the nationalists can teach children how their race is superior, then leftists can certainly teach children how all races are created equal

[TrotskistMarx]

You are right, even Jim Morrison of The Doors claimed that he who controls the media of a society, controls the minds of that society. He also wrote in American Prayer: "Did you know that we are ruled by TV?"

And what you said is true and not a conspiracy. The television has a great mind-manipulating effect, because when people are watching television, they are receiving 2 sources of mind-manipulation at the same time: Audio and visual.

I would like a socialist workers party to rise to US government, destroy all the main corporate TV channels, and replace it with a brand new media full of philosophy, science, and knowledge 24 hours a day without commercials. That would really help have an impact on the evolution of americans toward smarter and more rational people.

thanks


.



TrotskMarx; Antonio Gramsci's writings on the sources of bourgeois cultural hegemony are very interesting, and even when he wrote the Prison Notebooks back in the 1930s Gramsci realized the importance of the media in shaping a cultural hegemony that affects the entire society. In the case of Israel, in addition to your valid points there is the additional problem that some extremist Islamic elements favor the creation of a theocratic state that would be extremely oppressive to Jews. The ideal solution to this problem is clear, but how to get there involves many difficulties.

[~Spectre]

Ironically, Israel is a theocracy, but Judaism was (and is) a largely secular religion.

Israel isn't a theocracy. It's an Apartheid state.

[Tovarisch]

Israel isn't a theocracy. It's an Apartheid state.
It's both. Religious extremism and apartheid can co-exist quite nicely, as learned from history

[eyeheartlenin]

That's not really a theocracy. In Liberal democracies, even colonial racist ones, parties can run on religious platforms (like the Republicans in the U.S.), from inside a secular framework. The laws can still be enforced by secular court systems,etc.

I get what you're saying. Israel was never fair to Israeli Arabs, that cannot be disputed.

But Israel was however founded by many Atheist Jews, who didn't much care for theocracy (or other Jews for that matter).

It can get much worse, which is what some inside Israel call for. Indeed, those who want to take away Palestinian rights, will be the first to take away the rights of their fellow Jews.

Israel is very much a theocracy. Everyone there is classified based on religion, and immigration to Israel is determined by religious affiliation, which is why Jews from the US can freely immigrate, while the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, a Palestinian, requires government permission to work in Jerusalem, and that permission can be withheld, even though the Bishop was born in Palestine. Civil marriage is not even legal in Israel. To have a civil marriage, a couple would have to fly to Cyprus. Clearly a theocracy, lacking any separation between the government and religion.

Gideon Levy, writing in Haaretz, writes that Israel is at least a "semi-theocracy": http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gideon-levy-let-s-face-the-facts-israel-is-a-semi-theocracy-1.2438 with a lot of examples of theocratic elements in Israeli life

[~Spectre]

Israel is very much a theocracy. Everyone there is classified based on religion, and immigration to Israel is determined by religious affiliation, which is why Jews from the US can freely immigrate, while the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, a Palestinian, requires government permission to work in Jerusalem, and that permission can be withheld, even though the Bishop was born in Palestine. Civil marriage is not even legal in Israel. To have a civil marriage, a couple would have to fly to Cyprus. Clearly a theocracy.

Wrong. It's based on ethnicity. You can be an American atheist and still get the benefits of Israeli citizenship if your mother was ethnically Jewish.

[~Spectre]

It's both. Religious extremism and apartheid can co-exist quite nicely, as learned from history

Except that the two would be a contradiction here. Israeli Apartheid is based around the primacy of being ethnically Jewish (particularly white Europeans and Americans.)

Jewish Theocracy doesn't recognize the concept of being ethnically Jewish, and would consider an Atheist Jew to be no better than an Arab.

[JeVousAimeGuillotine]

Some guy here said that nationalism is good. What the hell is that? nationalism is plain evil. Look at Arizona how evil that state is, and the states near Mexico. And Zionism is plain evil. Socialists are supposed to be internationalists, not nationalists. Nationalism and patriotism are fascist evil crazy ideologies

.
Hey, now. I disagree with S.B. 1070 completely, but I really don't appreciate you calling Arizona an evil state. I'm from there, and I can disagree with the political policies of the people that govern the state, without throwing out such inflammatory language suggesting that Arizona is "evil."

There are several Marxists that live here in Arizona, and in all of the states that border Mexico. And a sizable minority of people in this state believe that Mexicans have every right to be here. We can hate policies, and disagree with them, and even hate the people that implement these polices. But don't generalize an entire state of people under the decisions of a few reactionary politicians.

[l'Enfermé]

Some historical background must be understood to make an informed decision on this question. In 1947, the UN, which had absolutely no mandate to divide countries based on ethnic lines, divided Palestine into 2 countries. The zone left for Palestinians was almost completely Palestinian, while the Israeli Zone, was about 50/50, Jews didn't even form a simple majority unless you don't count the nomadic Bedouins who lived in places like the Negev and who were conveniently not counted. Now, after the partition, the Zionists began an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population, massacring thousands, destroying hundreds of Palestinian villages. In the new several years, about 700,000 palestinians were driven out of Israel at the barrel of guns. There's also the Arab-Israeli War, which Zionists claim was the start of the conflict, even though it was an Arab response to the "Civil War"(Which is what the Zionists pretend the ethnic cleansing was, though "war" implies there were at least 2 opposing armies). Anyways, today millions of Palestinians still live in refugee camps into which their ancestors were driven by Zionist armies. If and when the state of Israel:
1) Allows these millions of Palestinians to return to Palestine
and
2) Fully compensates them and creates living conditions for them on par with those of Israelis, then, and only then, perhaps the question of recognizing Israel's right of existence be considered.

There's also the question of the West Bank(and Gaza) and illegal Israeli settlements. The immediate removal of Israeli colonists, compensation for West Bankers and Gazans and total political and military and economical sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza is also a requirement.

[milkmiku]

The large amount of money Zionist organizations and lobbying groups pool into the US government for continued support in the middle east is the primarily reason for their hatred of the US. A vast majority of US senators and Congressmen are in the Zionist pocket. Every time something big happens in that reason, the first question you need to ask yourself is "Will Israel or Saudi Arabia benefit?". The absurdity of it all, "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" is what all the Republicans like to spout in their defense, ignoring that it is a theocratic state created for jews by jews. Nations exist because they can actively enforce their will to exist.

If America cuts off Israel, then Zionism will likely die. The christian right and those with the money will never allow that to happen. So until Israel controls the middle east, which is the goal, then we are there to stay.

Look up Michael Scheuer on youtube, guy is ex-cia and has been blowing the whistle on America-Israel political for years.

[Rafiq]

The large amount of money Zionist organizations and lobbying groups pool into the US government for continued support in the middle east is the primarily reason for their hatred of the US. A vast majority of US senators and Congressmen are in the Zionist pocket. Every time something big happens in that reason, the first question you need to ask yourself is "Will Israel or Saudi Arabia benefit?". The absurdity of it all, "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east" is what all the Republicans like to spout in their defense, ignoring that it is a theocratic state created for jews by jews. Nations exist because they can actively enforce their will to exist.

If America cuts off Israel, then Zionism will likely die. The christian right and those with the money will never allow that to happen. So until Israel controls the middle east, which is the goal, then we are there to stay.

Look up Michael Scheuer on youtube, guy is ex-cia and has been blowing the whistle on America-Israel political for years.

This reeks of anti semitism.

[Fennec]

To quote United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, "Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination." I recommend an article (http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1998/05/israel.htm) Tony Cliff (who was born to a Zionist famly in Palestine in 1917 and grew up a Zionist) wrote in May 1998 which shows the absurdity of Zionist organisations today declaring "combating antisemitism" their mission whereas Theodor Herzl founded that movement for the precise reason he condoned antisemitism and "understood it historically", even considering antisemites allies and meeting with them (while attacking Émile Zola and French socialists). He won support of antisemites such as Arthur Balfour and Mark Sykes. Lenni Brenner wrote some great work on the topic.

The revolutionary left should support a workers' state in historic Palestine ("from the river to the sea") as part of the socialist federation of the Middle East. http://www.the-isleague.com/

http://www.ijsn.net

[Yehuda Stern]

As revolutionary socialists, there's only one question we really have to ask ourselves: what does Israel's existence mean to the proletarian revolution? Israel was created in 1948 by the US, USSR and other imperialist forces for one reason only: to serve as their imperialist stronghold against the Arab masses and against British imperialism, which at the time was the force behind the Arab League. Everyone involved knew that the result of creating Israel would be ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians: even the Palestinian Communist Party, which later supported (and actively participated in) the Nakba, warned about this at the time.

Since then, Israeli society has been divided between the settler-colonialists of different backgrounds and classes and the expropriated and oppressed Palestinians. Within both parts there is an important and useful class differentiation; however, with the financial support of imperialism on the one hand and the theft of Palestinian land and property on the other, the Zionist ruling class has been able to buy the loyalty of the Jewish masses, and to this day almost all Jews support their ruling class' atrocities against Palestinians both within and outside of the green line.

As such, the creation of Israel was not only a historical crime; today, Israel's existence is an impediment to the working class revolution in the Middle East. Its military might threatens the masses of the region, often causing encouraging them to support their own treacherous ruling classes, and its resources make it much less likely that it will be overthrown by its own exploited working class. Israel must be replaced so that these obstacles will be removed.

[Искра]

The revolutionary left should support a workers' state in historic Palestine ("from the river to the sea") as part of the socialist federation of the Middle East.
Aren't you some kind of council communist?

There's no such thing as "workers' state". In such state only national fraction of capital would benefit from exploatation of working class who fought for that shit.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Wow, what the heck? Zionism is plain evil. "Zionism" is just another name for the mass-murdering of inocent palestinians, using the billions of dollars that we americans donate to the killer state of Israel. So thanks but no thanks

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What the fuck are you talking about? What does that have to do with what I said?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I guess the sharing of the nation between the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government under one flag would make for the best solution. Freedom of movement and settlement and the freedom of self-determination. This would include the individual governments having autonomy over their own populations.

I would have to disagree with you on this point. Recent cables released by Wikileaks shows that the Palestinian Authority is a corrupt institution. It seems to me that UN Resolution 242 which called for a two state solution in which the Israeli government gives the occupied territories back to the Palestinians is the only solution to the problem. UN Resolution 242 is also known as the "International Consensus" because every nation, besides basically Israel and the United States, agrees to the solution. I don't think that it is possible to have a one state solution in which both areas are ruled by a secular and fair state. It may be possible in the future, but I think that region needs to have changes take one step at a time, and the next step is the two state solution in which Israel goes back to it's 1967 borders.