Wouldit be so bad to give the 'An-Caps' what they want?

[Blake's Baby]

Right, hear me out:

Absolutely, communism can only be built worlkdwide, capitalism must be defeated everywhere; but...


Can we not just agree to give them somewhere where they can all live together on their own and have their 'An-Cap' paradise? Surely we don't need every bit of the Earth? Obviously, we will get the vast majorirty, but if there are say 5000 die-hard 'An-Caps', would it not be easier to ask the population of Easter Island to come and live somewhere else, take of the statues and any other culturally-significant stuff for the rest of the human race, and give the island to the 'An-Caps'? They could set up their little corporate theocracies and slave communities and whatever else they liked, and in 40 years when they'd wiped each other out and died of starvation because no-one would do any work, we could take it back over again?

Would that really be so bad?

[GoddessCleoLover]

Aren't the Dry Tortugas uninhabited? IMO it is an ok idea with the proviso that the island be uninhabited as it would be grossly unjust to require anyone to leave home just for the An-caps?

[Blake's Baby]

I did say 'ask' if they'd leave. The reason I'm thinking Easter Island is that's the most remote part of anywhere. They'd be hard pushed to bother the rest of us from there.

We could I suppose put them somewhere that 'Isn't Going to Flood because Global Warming is a Myth'.

[Caj]

Ok, but they can't reproduce. We can't allow children to grow up in such conditions.

[Blake's Baby]

Harsh.

Can we not kidnap their children? With... shiney ladders up to rainbow-coloured helicopters, or something?

EDIT: No, you're probably right. Sterilise them and send them to Easter Island... but what if they already had children? We can't in good conscience break up families, can we? And we can't send the children to Easter Island where they'll just become sex-slaves of the warlords. So what's the answer?

It can't just be 'shoot the 'An-Caps' in the head', that's no better a solution than letting them go and live on Easter Island without their kids.

[Night Ripper]

Try sending me to a reservation and I'll go V for Vendetta on that ass. Imperialist bullshit is what that is.

[Blake's Baby]

Well, it seems like your choices would be, fight against the revolution and probably get shot, support the revolution and live under communism, or work to establish an 'An-Cap' society. I keep getting told that it's fine, 'An-Caps' and Communists can live on the same world if you can do what you do and we can do what we do. So I'm looking for a way that might happen.

Don't look on it as a reservation, look on it as asylum, the last haven of non-communism if it makes you feel better.

Unless of course you mean 'hell no I don't want to live with 'An-Caps', they're assholes' in which case, yeah, I see your point.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Night Ripper; this is a Leftist forum. Are you surprised that your "rugged individualism" doesn't fit the perspectives of this community? As a Luxemburgian my general approach is democratic, although in the event of social revolution the days of "rugged individualism" would be over, preferably democratically but by whatever means necessary. It 's called workers' democracy, not imperialism.

[Night Ripper]

Well, it seems like your choices would be, fight against the revolution and probably get shot, support the revolution and live under communism, or work to establish an 'An-Cap' society. I keep getting told that it's fine, 'An-Caps' and Communists can live on the same world if you can do what you do and we can do what we do. So I'm looking for a way that might happen.

Don't look on it as a reservation, look on it as asylum, the last haven of non-communism if it makes you feel better.

Unless of course you mean 'hell no I don't want to live with 'An-Caps', they're assholes' in which case, yeah, I see your point.

I'm already going to die. I'd rather die resisting forced relocation. However, there will be no communist revolution because only lunatics are even comfortable talking about genocide. You wont see any "exterminate the commies" talk from me. My ideology allows for yours to exist. We will win the war of ideas not bullets.

[Caj]

Try sending me to a reservation and I'll go V for Vendetta on that ass. Imperialist bullshit is what that is.

You could go wander around on your own devoid of human contact, if that sounds better to you. Seems more in line with "rugged individualism."


I'm already going to die. I'd rather die resisting forced relocation. However, there will be no communist revolution because only lunatics are even comfortable talking about genocide. You wont see any "exterminate the commies" talk from me. My ideology allows for yours to exist. We will win the war of ideas not bullets.

Who said anything about genocide?

We suggest allowing you and your fellow an-caps to form your ideal dystopian society on an island somewhere and suddenly we're genocidal imperialists. I think we're being pretty generous if you ask me.

[Blake's Baby]

Ah, OK, so you'd live under communism. Fine, no problem, I don't think we need make any special arrangements then.

[Lobotomy]

do anarcho-capitalists even have any ideas regarding how to realize an an-cap society? or how to abolish the state? One time I debated with an anarcho-capitalist and I asked him how his ideal system would be realized, and he said by "winning the intellectual debate", or something..

[Night Ripper]

Ah, OK, so you'd live under communism. Fine, no problem, I don't think we need make any special arrangements then.

No. An-cap socities will allow you to form communes but you can't force others to join. I will refuse to join but you can have at it. You won't even be forced to move.

[Night Ripper]

do anarcho-capitalists even have any ideas regarding how to realize an an-cap society? or how to abolish the state? One time I debated with an anarcho-capitalist and I asked him how his ideal system would be realized, and he said by "winning the intellectual debate", or something..

The same way slavery was abolished. Society will change and people will vote down laws, return to the constitution and then that too will be replaced.

[Caj]

The same way slavery was abolished.

So rendering the state unprofitable, gotcha.

[CommunityBeliever]

Dear Night Ripper,

Why do you oppose communism? Most of the posts of yours I have seen have been short once sentence replies or things talking about anarcho-capitalism with nothing clear on why you oppose communism.

[Blake's Baby]

And what about when your community comes into conflict with ours?

Oh, no wait, there's no reason why they should. When you come to our communities, because you believe you have to pay for things, we'll let you, and when we come to yours, because we don't believe we have to pay for things, we won't. Simple.

[Lobotomy]

The same way slavery was abolished. Society will change and people will vote down laws, returb to the constitution and then that too will be replaced.

I assume you mean slavery in the US, because slavery hasn't been "abolished", it still exists in many different forms in many parts of the world. how will people "vote down laws" when common people don't have a say in lawmaking? and who will replace the constitution?

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Anarcho-capitalism cannot work because we know that the state exists because of classes and the stratification of society. The "capitalism" part of "anarcho-capitalism" will retain classes, thus making the "anarcho-" part invalid. Just make a space colony for them and soon the normal people back on Earth will forget to send them oxygen. :p

[Night Ripper]

Dear Night Ripper,

Why do you oppose communism? Most of the posts of yours I have seen have been short once sentence replies or things talking about anarcho-capitalism with nothing clear on why you oppose communism.

I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned. If you can get people to join you voluntarily I truly wish you happiness and the best of luck.

[GoddessCleoLover]

One cannot similar choose to secede from society. An-Caps and Constitutionalists have a particular view of society. We have ours. I don't inflict myself on an-cap or constitutionalist websites. Most people right now probably regard all of us as outside the mainstream. I am curious as to why Night Ripper wastes his time with "lunatics" at RevLeft?

[Night Ripper]

And what about when your community comes into conflict with ours?

Oh, no wait, there's no reason why they should. When you come to our communities, because you believe you have to pay for things, we'll let you, and when we come to yours, because we don't believe we have to pay for things, we won't. Simple.

Come onto my property and I will ask you to leave. If you don't, I will move you myself.

[Night Ripper]

One cannot similar choose to secede from society. An-Caps and Constitutionalists have a particular view of society. We have ours. I don't inflict myself on an-cap or constitutionalist websites. Most people right now probably regard all of us as outside the mainstream. I am curious as to why Night Ripper wastes his time with "lunatics" at RevLeft?

You help me hone my arguments and maybe someday I might read something here that will change my mind.

[GoddessCleoLover]

What if a workers' democracy decides it is not your property any more? Even under capitalism there is a concept of property confiscation, eg. eminent domain.

[Night Ripper]

What if a workers' democracy decides it is not your property any more? Even under capitalism there is a concept of property confiscation, eg. eminent domain.

Not under anarcho-capitalism.

[CommunityBeliever]

I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned. If you can get people to join you voluntarily I truly wish you happiness and the best of luck. When we Marxists talk of private property we actually mean bourgioisie property, which includes the means of production. The private control of the means of production means that the bourgeoisie gets all the benefits from modern technologies of mass production and this creates terrible income inequality. The bourgioisie uses the state to deny access to private property:

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwO82P34R8ltgNbMA_JlJBrgrtb1_Xl asGjsjk-CFcLnRdpO-L

If the bourgeoisie were willing to volunteer to stop denying control of private property to us then that would be great, however, the reality is the bourgeoisie is not go to give up their control freely.

[Caj]

I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned.

But the use of private property for the accumulation of profit is anything but?

[GoddessCleoLover]

Night Ripper; generally I believe in a Latin saying of which Karl Marx was fond; et omnibus dubitum, but I can opine without doubt that Anarch-Capitalism and Socialism will not both prevail. If there is a socialist revolution you choices will include abiding by its results, at least giving it ten years or so as a fair trial, or resistance. I would hope you would give workers' democracy at least ten years. As you posted about possibly changing your mind, it seems that you might give it a fair chance to see if your mind could be changed.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Dear Night Ripper,

How in the world is it possible to get such negative reputation when you only joined less than two months ago? How are you still on RevLeft?

[Ocean Seal]

Right, hear me out:

Absolutely, communism can only be built worlkdwide, capitalism must be defeated everywhere; but...


Can we not just agree to give them somewhere where they can all live together on their own and have their 'An-Cap' paradise? Surely we don't need every bit of the Earth? Obviously, we will get the vast majorirty, but if there are say 5000 die-hard 'An-Caps', would it not be easier to ask the population of Easter Island to come and live somewhere else, take of the statues and any other culturally-significant stuff for the rest of the human race, and give the island to the 'An-Caps'? They could set up their little corporate theocracies and slave communities and whatever else they liked, and in 40 years when they'd wiped each other out and died of starvation because no-one would do any work, we could take it back over again?

Would that really be so bad?
You know I'm not sure I'm on board with this. Gulags seem pretty terrible in hindsight, but capitalism in one country? My friend you are too cruel.
I can just imagine 90% of the libertarians living in poverty and never organizing because it goes against individual principle. I don't like them, but even they deserve better.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Where capitalism exists, injustice and exploitation exist. As much fun as seeing an an-cap experiment fail would be, we would be sorry excuses for revolutionaries if we allowed the working class to continue to suffer under capitalism, even if it was just 5000 people

[eric922]

Try sending me to a reservation and I'll go V for Vendetta on that ass. Imperialist bullshit is what that is.
Oh the irony. You do realize V was an anarchist, so does that mean you'll realize how stupid and idealist your ideology is and become a real libertarian?

[eric922]

I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned. If you can get people to join you voluntarily I truly wish you happiness and the best of luck.
So what if the majority of the people voted to abolish private property? Would you submit to the will of the majority or try to enforce you views a society that rejects them?

[eric922]

I was watching the Amazing Atheist(yes he's a liberal asshole, but he makes me laugh sometimes) and he had a great idea. Let's build a colony on the moon and send the libertarians there and they can even elect Ron Paul president of the moon. It will be great.

[Night Ripper]

Oh the irony. You do realize V was an anarchist, so does that mean you'll realize how stupid and idealist your ideology is and become a real libertarian?

I am a "real" libertarian.


So what if the majority of the people voted to abolish private property? Would you submit to the will of the majority or try to enforce you views a society that rejects them?

If the majority of people vote to allow rape but I refuse to be raped is that forcing my views on society? If so, you're goddamn right I'll be forcing my views on society.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned. If you can get people to join you voluntarily I truly wish you happiness and the best of luck.So do you think that the abolition of slavery in the US during the civil war was theft? The slave-owners didn't consent to emancipation.

Well you might argue that since the slaves were stolen labor in the first place that makes that property illegitimate and therefore it's not theft to take that (human) property away.

But then, the money from the US south fueled US trade in the north and led to industrialization. So all the capital that built the US economy comes from an illegitimate theft of labor. That's not to mention the daily exploitation of wage-slaves. Capitalism is built on theft from the conquest of other lands to the enclosures of the commons in Europe to slavery in the new world.

[Tim Cornelis]

do anarcho-capitalists even have any ideas regarding how to realize an an-cap society? or how to abolish the state? One time I debated with an anarcho-capitalist and I asked him how his ideal system would be realized, and he said by "winning the intellectual debate", or something..

Counter-economics, black markets, illegalism, or voting yourself in power.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think the OP brings up an interesting question. The establishment of global capitalism was a drawn-out historical process, with feudalism being overtaken in a piecemeal fashion across the world. This suggests to me that the transition to a global communist society may likewise be an incremental process in the history of the world as a whole.

This raises the possiblity of communist societies sharing the world stage with capitalist countries, and the attendant question of diplomatic relations. Given the material interests of the parties involved I'm guessing that such relations are going to be characterised by increasing antagonism as history progresses, however depending on the economic clout of the communist bloc I would suggest it may be possible for the communists to induce any smaller capitalist countries into falling into their sphere of influence. Given the increasing instability of capitalism even today, when it is the global economic system, I suspect that such a global geopolitical struggle will be fought with guns and butter, so to speak.

If capitalism's death-grip starts slipping as I illustrated above, I think it could start manifesting in strange and interesting ways; could the seeming recent rise in the popularity of various flavours of right-libertarianism be a historical trend, an example of the infantilisation of capitalism in its dotage? Although the current "libertarian" trends in capitalist policy seem more about securing their own wealth and power, activities like seasteading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading) may become popular projects in a desperate gamble to preserve liquidity in a shrinking global market.

Personally, I have few issues if a bunch of free-market types decide to pull a John Galt and build their own little Randian paradise on the sea. We won't miss each other, and both their successes and their failures will be highly instructive to the rest of humanity.

[Blake's Baby]

Well, I fundamentally disagree with a whole load of that, as you might expect Noxion.

Firstly, I don't see it being a process of co-existence. I see it as a process of allowing a small group of people the option of seceeding from the rest of society. There's 7 billion of us. There's 5,000 of them. We could kill them all if they caused trouble without any real effort. But should we? I don't think so. So what should we do if we can't convince them? Lock them up? Not ideal - apart from the basic violation of their fundamantal rights as human beings, and the problem that we'd be creating prisons for dissidents, we'd have to look after them, and why should we bother? Let them roam about doinmg mischief? Not ideal either. So trying to find a way of giving them some space to run their experimental society on actually seems like the best option.

Capitalism in its dotage? Though I think worldwide capitalism is in its dotage, I think in the US this isn't a second childhood in senility, more like someone in middle age that still thinks they're hip. American capitalist ideology is wedded to 'rugged individualism', the Frontier, homesteading, blazing trails to Oregon, Manifest Destiny, Thoreau, living in shacks, punching bears and other nonsense. It never grew up. America, ideologically, is stuck in the 1870s. I really think this has more to do with it than anything else.

Though of course you could be right, it might be senile, and what we're seeing now is a nostalgic return to a time when it still believed in possibilities. Hmmm. I'll have to think on.

[RGacky3]

Try sending me to a reservation and I'll go V for Vendetta on that ass. Imperialist bullshit is what that is.


Really??? But its not your territory or property :)

You can have your property I guarantee no one will give a shit.

In a true libertarian society your worries would come from the guy thats richer than you, has a private army, and just decides to take your stuff or anything he wants, not from communists,

[CommunityBeliever]

I am a "real" libertarian.

Don't hijack the term "libertarian" for your own uses. Right-wing politics and libertarianism are not compatible. In order to even have the liberty to do anything you need energy and sustenance. The means to satisfy these basic needs (the means of production) are exclusively controlled by the bourgeoisie, which gives them a reliable means of coercion.

You said before "I oppose abolishing private property rights without consent." This just goes to show that you are a bourgeoisie apologist rather then a "real libertarian". You are only libertarian from a bourgeoisie perspective. Your perspective is such that you support it when the 1% uses coercion against the 99%, but you don't support it when the 99% uses coercion against the 1%.

Furthermore, we Marxists know that states = ruling class owned private property over a country, which implies that capitalist states are just another form of bourgeoisie property. You claim to oppose abolishing bourgeoisie property yet you also claim to be against the bourgeoisie state, how does that make any sense at all?


If the majority of people vote to allow rape but I refuse to be raped is that forcing my views on society? If so, you're goddamn right I'll be forcing my views on society.

Even if the majority of the world's population supported bourgeoisie property, you could still make a solid case for its abolition. In particular, bourgeoisie property is authoritarian and anti-egalitarian (I explained this in more detail in post #26 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2377216&postcount=26)). However, since the bourgeoisie are of the 1%, most people are already against bourgeoisie property so we don't have to force our views on society.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, I fundamentally disagree with a whole load of that, as you might expect Noxion.

Firstly, I don't see it being a process of co-existence. I see it as a process of allowing a small group of people the option of seceeding from the rest of society.

Society doesn't own it's members, so if people want to secede then they should be able to.


There's 7 billion of us. There's 5,000 of them.

I profess I did not think to estimate the ratios. I will accept your figures for the purposes of this argument, but I reckon there would be more than 5000 wannabe John Galts.


We could kill them all if they caused trouble without any real effort. But should we? I don't think so. So what should we do if we can't convince them? Lock them up? Not ideal - apart from the basic violation of their fundamantal rights as human beings, and the problem that we'd be creating prisons for dissidents, we'd have to look after them, and why should we bother? Let them roam about doinmg mischief? Not ideal either. So trying to find a way of giving them some space to run their experimental society on actually seems like the best option.

Uh, the open ocean has plenty of space, that's the whole point behind seaseading, even if you're not any kind of libertarian. There's plenty of space on the oceans for a floating city-state if you can build one.


Capitalism in its dotage? Though I think worldwide capitalism is in its dotage, I think in the US this isn't a second childhood in senility, more like someone in middle age that still thinks they're hip. American capitalist ideology is wedded to 'rugged individualism', the Frontier, homesteading, blazing trails to Oregon, Manifest Destiny, Thoreau, living in shacks, punching bears and other nonsense. It never grew up. America, ideologically, is stuck in the 1870s. I really think this has more to do with it than anything else.

Though of course you could be right, it might be senile, and what we're seeing now is a nostalgic return to a time when it still believed in possibilities. Hmmm. I'll have to think on.

Here's something else for you to chew on - the capitalist classes may simultanously attempt to counter the militancy of the oppressed classes by throwing them a bone - so it would not surprise me if global capitalism becomes increasingly schizophrenic as it loses its economic grip. Perhaps a major ideology of the ruling classes within the next 50 or so years will be some kind of free-market social democracy?

[CommunityBeliever]

So what should we do if we can't convince them?In communist society I can think of a few methods of dealing with a group of anarcho-capitalists:


Confine each of them to their own homes using advanced home confinement technologies.
Give the group to an island in the middle of the pacific ocean and let their anarcho-capitalist experiment run its course there.
Send them to a rehabilitation center so that they can be reintroduced into society.


Lock them up? Not ideal - apart from the basic violation of their fundamantal rights as human beings, and the problem that we'd be creating prisons for dissidents, we'd have to look after them, and why should we bother?

Prisons are a primitive institution. Any technologically advanced society will be able to turn any home into a virtual prison (home confinement). Being confined to your home in a communist society won't be that bad either, you could still use the Internet and get everything delivered to you through the network.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Ultimately this is all speculation and what people decided would have to be based on the conditions of the time.

If, hypothetically, there was a successful revolution and any serious threat of counter-revolution was passed but there was a small region of a few 10,000 people where the vast majority wanted to have self-rule and a market economy, then maybe people would decide it wasn't a threat to allow them to do this.

Of course it's sort of cruel in a way. I don't favor capital punishment and allowing some idealist capitalists to have a little Roanoke Capitalist zone would just result in mass death and depopulation by the end of the first winter. But if they aren't a threat to worker's power and democracy, then disarm them and let em go for it.

[Night Ripper]

Ultimately this is all speculation and what people decided would have to be based on the conditions of the time.

If, hypothetically, there was a successful revolution and any serious threat of counter-revolution was passed but there was a small region of a few 10,000 people where the vast majority wanted to have self-rule and a market economy, then maybe people would decide it wasn't a threat to allow them to do this.

Of course it's sort of cruel in a way. I don't favor capital punishment and allowing some idealist capitalists to have a little Roanoke Capitalist zone would just result in mass death and depopulation by the end of the first winter. But if they aren't a threat to worker's power and democracy, then disarm them and let em go for it.

Are you going to put us into time machines too? I have a closet full of survival gear and plenty of ammo. I'll be just fine.

[Revolution starts with U]

The same way slavery was abolished. Society will change and people will vote down laws, return to the constitution and then that too will be replaced.

Ya, slavery ended because of "votes." Get a clue...

...and omfg the constitution originally allowed for slavery! Christ, get a clue.

I am a "real" libertarian.



If the majority of people vote to allow rape but I refuse to be raped is that forcing my views on society? If so, you're goddamn right I'll be forcing my views on society.
Exactly! ThatIS forcing yourviews on them. That's the point. Coercion must exist for a society to sustain itself. Real libertarians know this, and know that putting the power of coercion in the hands of the working class isboth an inevitable outcome of capital, and the most rational way to organize society.

Are you going to put us into time machines too? I have a closet full of survival gear and plenty of ammo. I'll be just fine.

Expecting something? ...raging hordes of starving poor people ready to cut heads off? Why don't you realize this isn't just going to go sway in a nonarchist fantasy land?

[human strike]

The contradictory flaws in an-capism would only result in accelerated communist revolution. Give them everywhere: FULL ANARCHO-CAPITALISM NOW! FULL COMMUNISM TOMORROW!

[Comrade Samuel]

Sure, one day we can shoot all the capitalists into the sun they can have that.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I actually like the idea of sending all the an-caps to their own island, lol. I had a friend who turned from a socialist to a hardcore an-cap. Now he just drives me nuts with his lack of compassion for like...everybody. At least on their own island they could do their own thing without worrying about infringing on other people's rights and such.

[gorillafuck]

I did say 'ask' if they'd leave. The reason I'm thinking Easter Island is that's the most remote part of anywhere. They'd be hard pushed to bother the rest of us from there.sending libertarians to colonize Easter Island is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard for so many reasons.

[Doflamingo]

Send the an-caps to the moon. They can create their little fairy tale land up there.

[Belleraphone]

Yes, just give them an island or set of land to live on. People are worrying about what will happen to the children, I honestly think that after a few years on their Randian island, they will be begging to come back, with the children included. There will be nobody left to farm to the fields or work in the factories, so the bourgeois will either have to *gasp* start working or come back to the revolutionary mainland.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Are you going to put us into time machines too? I have a closet full of survival gear and plenty of ammo. I'll be just fine.Hope you can eat and drink that ammo, because cut off from the rest of society you might as well be in a time machine without access to fuel, power, plumbing, internet, mail, phone, mass produced food, and all the other evils of collectivist production (although now under new management - the people who actually do the work to make these things!).

Right-wing nuts, still hiding in their parent's basement with their play-at-home Red Dawn action set and waiting for the day the Reds come knocking on their door to take the soda from their hands and give it to their governmental overlords.

If workers overthrew the government and took control in their workplaces and communities, then I doubt they'd care about someone who wants to hole up with their generator, ammo, and the muscle milk pill bottles they buy in bulk. They'd only be interested in democratically controlling useful things, not people and especially not hermits. So if you have a house in the woods somewhere, then no one would even bother to care. If you wanted to farm your own land and not participate in society, I'm sure it would be much easier that it is now where you'd need to be independently wealthy (or go into debt and therefore not be "off the grid" at all, but part of the system still) to start such a project. If you wanted to be hostile and try and intimidate people or subvert the new system set up by workers, then they'd probably form a militia and detain you or exile you.


Yes, just give them an island or set of land to live on. People are worrying about what will happen to the children, I honestly think that after a few years on their Randian island, they will be begging to come back, with the children included. There will be nobody left to farm to the fields or work in the factories, so the bourgeois will either have to *gasp* start working or come back to the revolutionary mainland.This is why some of the early British colonies in North America failed. They weren't sustainable until they were able to bring in debtors and others as indentured servants.

[Night Ripper]

without access to fuel, power, plumbing, internet, mail, phone, mass produced food

Kids these days! Haven't you ever been camping? I've lived for weeks like that. I ate more fish than I would have preferred but that's a minor inconvenience.

[RGacky3]

Kids these days! Haven't you ever been camping? I've lived for weeks like that. I ate more fish than I would have preferred but that's a minor inconvenience.

Is that supposed to be a serious response to an economic issue?

[Prometeo liberado]

OK, first of we gotta keep Night Ripper close to home. Liberate him/her in one of those cool plexy glass boxes at the airport like they did with John Wayne.

Second, I love those big Easter head things. Ship one overhear and I'll put a grass skirt on it. Hula Easter heads are revolutionary!

http://static.zoovy.com/img/tikimaster/W640-H480-B8e7a47/M/moaihootlarge.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:zoom('http://static.zoovy.com/img/tikimaster/-/M/moaihootlarge.gif'))

[RGacky3]

If the majority of people vote to allow rape but I refuse to be raped is that forcing my views on society? If so, you're goddamn right I'll be forcing my views on society.

I'm pretty sure the whole idea of rape depends on you refusing to be raped, if your ok with it its not rape.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Kids these days! Haven't you ever been camping? I've lived for weeks like that. I ate more fish than I would have preferred but that's a minor inconvenience.

Where do you think your camping gear was made? How on Earth do you think you would acquire replacements if there is no prospect of you being able to return to civilisation?

What do you think would happen if you needed a surgical operation or some other major medical intervention?

[Rafiq]

I oppose abolishing human property rights without consent. That's theft as far as I'm concerned.

.

[Night Ripper]

What do you think would happen if you needed a surgical operation or some other major medical intervention?

You can ask "what if" all day but aside from these unlikely events, it's not that big of a deal.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Wouldn't the collapse of the present economic order and the arrival of a successful communist re-organization make you even start to re-think your assumptions about how people think and act?

[Regicollis]

You can ask "what if" all day but aside from these unlikely events, it's not that big of a deal.

Is getting seriously ill an "unlikely event"? You know that one day we will most likely all need a trip to the hospital? You might be young and well now but you too will get old and sick.

And remember that without access to modern medicine you have significantly lowered the bar for what is life-threatening. Stuff that we don't consider as more than an inconvenience can actually kill you if you don't get the right medical attention.

[CommunityBeliever]

You can ask "what if" all day but aside from these unlikely events, it's not that big of a deal. I was thinking of asking you are actually an anarcho-primitivist, but then I realised that is pointless, of course you are a primitivist. Capitalism is an economically inferior mode of production to socialism, so everyone who supports capitalism over socialism is a primitivism.

Now that we have established that you are against egalitarianism and technologies like modern medicine, it is becoming clear why you disagree with us communists.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You can ask "what if" all day but aside from these unlikely events, it's not that big of a deal.

Even if you're young and healthy, shit happens. Your appendix could become inflamed with appendicitis and require removal. A flesh wound you acquire becomes infected despite your best efforts.

Since we're talking about you living the independant life as some kind of modern hunter-gatherer, we should also take into account the fact that the poor diet of your meagre existence would serve to exacerbate any medical problems you encounter.

All it would take to for you to be utterly crippled and/or miserable for the rest of your dirt-scratch existence is some unforseen accident or circumstance - and don't you fucking dare to deny that sort of shit happens, even to people who aren't living the Libertarian Lone Wolf Fantasy.

That's why a lot of countries have public healthcare, like the UK's NHS, because there is a recognition that essential services such as healthcare provision should not be contingent on having a fat wallet that the insurance companies can suck dry in the event of unforseen circumstances, like in the US.

[hatzel]

I was thinking of asking you are actually an anarcho-primitivist, but then I realised that is pointless, of course you are a primitivist. Capitalism is an economically inferior mode of production to socialism, so everyone who supports capitalism over socialism is a primitivism.

Now that we have established that you are against egalitarianism and technologies like modern medicine, it is becoming clear why you disagree with us communists.

Well that's quite a lot of meaningless drivel for one post...

[robbo203]

Well, it seems like your choices would be, fight against the revolution and probably get shot, support the revolution and live under communism, or work to establish an 'An-Cap' society. I keep getting told that it's fine, 'An-Caps' and Communists can live on the same world if you can do what you do and we can do what we do. So I'm looking for a way that might happen.

In all seriousness, though. I too have been told this on many occassions by our ever entertaining an-caps. I am still trying to puzzle out how they figure that priced goods (commodities) could effectively compete against free goods in a communist society. I mean, which would you rather have - something you have to pay for or something that you can freely take by virtue of the simple pleasure of being a human being belonging to a free community in which the means of production were held in common?

I know what I would prefer and , besides, how would you pay for your commodities provided courtesy of your An-caps in communism? More to the point why would they want to sell something to you or barter it for something else when they could get the latter for free anyway?

It makes no sense

[ChrisK]

Right, hear me out:

Absolutely, communism can only be built worlkdwide, capitalism must be defeated everywhere; but...


Can we not just agree to give them somewhere where they can all live together on their own and have their 'An-Cap' paradise? Surely we don't need every bit of the Earth? Obviously, we will get the vast majorirty, but if there are say 5000 die-hard 'An-Caps', would it not be easier to ask the population of Easter Island to come and live somewhere else, take of the statues and any other culturally-significant stuff for the rest of the human race, and give the island to the 'An-Caps'? They could set up their little corporate theocracies and slave communities and whatever else they liked, and in 40 years when they'd wiped each other out and died of starvation because no-one would do any work, we could take it back over again?

Would that really be so bad?

Ever hear of Bioshock?

[Blake's Baby]

... I am still trying to puzzle out how they figure that priced goods (commodities) could effectively compete against free goods in a communist society. I mean, which would you rather have - something you have to pay for or something that you can freely take by virtue of the simple pleasure of being a human being belonging to a free community in which the means of production were held in common?

I know what I would prefer and , besides, how would you pay for your commodities provided courtesy of your An-caps in communism? More to the point why would they want to sell something to you or barter it for something else when they could get the latter for free anyway?

It makes no sense

No, it's OK, I worked it out. They like paying for things (that's how they know they 'own' them) so when they come to get things from our communities, they pay for them. We don't like paying for things (the Earth being a common treasury, and all), so when we get things from their communities, we just take what we need.

That way everyone gets what they want. I totally can't see any reason why that wouldn't work.

I feel like I should insert some kind of sarcastic smiley here.


Ever hear of Bioshock?

I believe it's a computer game with some cool graphics. I might be wrong about that.

Any relevance to the notion of using Easter Island as an 'an-cap' utopia escapes me I'm afraid.

[ChrisK]

I believe it's a computer game with some cool graphics. I might be wrong about that.

Any relevance to the notion of using Easter Island as an 'an-cap' utopia escapes me I'm afraid.

Its a underwater city populated entirely by Ayn Rand fanatics (close-ish to an-cap) who, in there crazy attempt to be most competitive engineer themselves into monsters. Fun time running around having to fight them. But yeah, that would seem to be how this whole thing would work out in my mind... absolute failure.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Fair enough, let's send 'em all to Somalia.

[Night Ripper]

All it would take to for you to be utterly crippled and/or miserable for the rest of your dirt-scratch existence is some unforseen accident or circumstance - and don't you fucking dare to deny that sort of shit happens, even to people who aren't living the Libertarian Lone Wolf Fantasy.

I didn't come up with this idiotic scenario where it's just me vs. the world but I did want to point out that, like you said, aside from some unforseen accident, day to day survival isn't that hard. Getting food, water and shelter is not some magical process that only highly ordered societies can accomplish. I could do just fine on my own for a good while and yes, if something bad happens that I can't fix, I'll die, then again, I'm going to die anyways so it's not that huge of a deal.

Back to reality, it wouldn't be just me in the woods. It would be me and thousands of likewise highly educated and skilled libertarians. We could all work together voluntarily and of course there will be a few doctors among us. The point is, leaving a bunch of libertarians isolated from the rest of the world isn't an instant death sentence despite what your communist "everyone needs everyone" fantasy tells you.

[Night Ripper]

Fair enough, let's send 'em all to Somalia.

I believe New Hampshire is the first choice.

[marl]

Fair enough, let's send 'em all to Somalia.
That's implying Somalia will remain in its current state after revolution.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I didn't come up with this idiotic scenario where it's just me vs. the world but I did want to point out that, like you said, aside from some unforseen accident, day to day survival isn't that hard.

And when (not if) that unforseen accident happens, what then?

In a lone wolf hunter-gatherer situation, you're fucked. But if you live within a civilisation worthy of the name, that provides free healthcare to its citizens, then you're in a much better situation.


Getting food, water and shelter is not some magical process that only highly ordered societies can accomplish. I could do just fine on my own for a good while and yes, if something bad happens that I can't fix, I'll die, then again, I'm going to die anyways so it's not that huge of a deal.

It's a hell of a lot easier for all concerned. You may be blase about the prospect of dying young due to some stupid accident, but thankfully most people aren't as thick and careless as you are, and agree that having a complex technological society with social provisions is a damn good idea. Maybe that's why its lasted so long and spread so quickly.


Back to reality, it wouldn't be just me in the woods. It would be me and thousands of likewise highly educated and skilled libertarians. We could all work together voluntarily and of course there will be a few doctors among us. The point is, leaving a bunch of libertarians isolated from the rest of the world isn't an instant death sentence despite what your communist "everyone needs everyone" fantasy tells you.

I love the way you move the goalposts in a desperate attempt to recover your stupid argument. First it's just your stupid ass in the woods, then all of a sudden you're joined by "highly educated and skilled" folks of like mind. Most convenient! Hey man, I thought you were a rugged individualist?

In any case, even if you end up with a bunch of like-minded folks on the scale of a city-state, there are still going to be problems that your little John Galt paradise will find too much to handle on their lonesome.

It'll be interesting to see what a group of you types would do in the event that your whole enclave gets swept away by a tsunami, hurricance, earthquake or some other natural disaster. Considering that you would be a bunch of selfish fucks at heart, I would not be at all surprised if you all turned on one another.

Maybe that'll be the trashy entertainment of the future - Who Wants To Be A Rugged Individualist? "Stay tuned after this public service announcement to see our special episode, where our satellite cameras and aerial drones have been following the fate of the city-state of Galtopia after being struck by Hurricane Frederick"

[Night Ripper]

In any case, even if you end up with a bunch of like-minded folks on the scale of a city-state, there are still going to be problems that your little John Galt paradise will find too much to handle on their lonesome.

Live free or die.

[Blake's Baby]

Live free or die.

Yeah, that's why we all want to destroy capitalism and the state.

[Revolution starts with U]

Live free or die.

So are you living free right now?