So you say prostitution is ILLEGAL in cuba???

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Ok then....since I've been welcomed by many of the clear thinking, mature, calm and intelligent individuals on this board...I'd like to fire the first salvo:


Which one of you here said that prostitution was illegal in cuba? I'd like facts please....I'll post my own (physical and written) pointing to QUITE the contrary, if/when I get a good repsonse.

Batter up!

[Bolshevika]

Prostitution is illegal in Cuba, people who have sex with prostitutes can be jailed for 2-5 years and pimps can be jailed for up to 10 years. I know there still is prostitution in Cuba. However, it is much more widespread in America. It is a problem in all countries (although it is A LOT worse in the capitalist nations).

Can I assume you live in an upper-middle class white neighborhood like most Cuban exiles/subversionists/traitors/"immigrants"? Well, there may not be any there, but I'd like you to come to any slum here in NYC and there are atleast 5 prostitutes on every block.

[cubist]

yes but in america it is't benificial to the government when prostitues make money in suba they have to spend the hard earned dollars somewhere and whos gonna be running those places none other than the goverment,
if i remember this thread in politics a while back

[Collective]

I don't remember the legal details entirely, but I don't think prostitution is actually illegal. Its the things around it. Which means the Cuban government targets the pimps and clients while the prostitutes themselves are rehabilitated and treated as victims, given social care.

Prostitution exists in Cuba of course, but it is being dealt with. A year ago you could have found one on any corner in central Havana. Now, especially with the crackdown this year, those disgusting 'sex tourists' are known to have been complaining that they can't find girls anywhere. When I was in Cuba at the start of summer I wasn't propositioned once.

The social side of it coupled with a harsh police crackdown has meant the problem being dealt with quite effectively. Of course, it'll be there while the economic crisis persists, but its less of a problem now than in th 1990's I understand.

[Hampton]

HAVANA, July 21 (Oswaldo de Céspedes, CPI) – A new campaign of "preventive measures" to control the spread of prostitution in the tourist areas of Havana translates to preventive arrests of women found in those areas, especially at night.

"Any young woman out at any place frequented by tourists is, as a matter of course, considered a prostitute by police," said one source.

Yudisleysi Díaz Rico was arrested on July 15 at a beach east of Havana. First she was taken to a police station and subsequently to the "Villa Delicias" jail. Two days later she was freed after signing an agreement to remain at home and not to go by the central areas of the city or any other places where tourist usually can be found.

Link (http://64.21.33.164/CNews/y00/jul00/25e2.htm)


February 19: Cuban authorities will confiscate the property of anyone involved in the traffic or consumption of illegal drugs or linked to irregularities or corruption, the government said in a decree published in the state-run newspaper. Official Cuban newspaper Granma announced, "The confiscation of all those residences or buildings in which drugs are produced, trafficked, acquired, stored, consumed, hidden or are linked in any way, directly or indirectly, to drugs." A spokesman for the prosecutor's office said the government will also confiscate the property of anyone linked to corruption, prostitution, procurement, pornography, people trafficking, corruption of minors or any such crime. This punitive measure will also apply to property owners who rent out a residence or local without submitting the proper documentation to the official registry or, after having registered, fail to notify authorities. The Cuban Deputy Attorney General pointed out that the new law is in agreement with Article 60 of the Cuban Constitution, which provides for confiscation of property as long as it is carried out in compliance with existing legal procedures. (EFE, Radio Habana Cuba, 19/2/03)

Link (http://www.cubasource.org/chronicles/feb03.htm)


Castro, 72, acknowledged the "growing tendency" of prostitution in Cuba. He said 6,714 prostitutes were rounded up in Havana in the first 11 months of 1998. Some 190 pimps were also caught, of whom 56 percent were jailed and the rest fined, he said, adding: "That seems a lot of fines ... stronger measures are needed."

Castro and his government are proud of cleaning up Cuba in the years after the revolution and are clearly stung by perceptions the situation is again getting out of hand. Before the revolution, Cuba was sometimes disparagingly referred to as "the bordello of the Caribbean," famed for its women and casinos. While largely wiped out in the intervening decades, prostitution and other problems reemerged in the 1990s as Cuba opened up once more to foreign tourists and its superpower ally, the Soviet Union, collapsed, leaving islanders increasingly desperate for ways to make money.

Link (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/crime4.htm)


"We began taking adequate measures to combat these outbreaks. And we are still perfecting our methods ... We understand this problem, and our methods are human," Castro added, saying "advances" were expected.

Castro gave no figures this time, whereas he had laced his 1998 speech with statistics like the fact that more than 6,700 prostitutes and around 190 pimps were rounded up in Havana in the first 11 months of that year.

He also made no reference to Cuba's latest tactics in the fight on prostitution, which since 1998 has included the closure of bars and discotheques, night raids, the sending of thousands of women to rehabilitation schools, and new penalties for sex-related crimes like child abuse or pimping.

Link (http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/cuba/castro-prostitution.htm)

[canikickit]

I hope it is legal.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 05:11 PM
I hope it is legal.
Go there and find out for yourself. You don't need a bunch of quotes and writings to see before your very eyes. ;)

Ok...ALL good posts. Cuba performs some 'crackdowns' on prostitution but usually "se hacen de la vista gorda" (they look the other way). Here's a written experience from soemone that went there: Then I'll tell you about my four firefighting buddies that recently came back from there with stories of hookers and plenty of inexpensive sex!!

Its long guys, but take the time to read it for yourselves. I've Italicized the important notes, and underlined some even better ones.


SINGING THE GUANTANAMERA BLUES!
Samuel R. Hornblower

The click of wooden instruments and Afro-Cuban drums drown out the staccato chatter and noisy laughter of a small restaurant in Havana Vieja. It is the music made popular by "The Buena Vista Social Club." Jorge, a dark, elderly Cuban with thick white hair and a broad, toothless grin, steps between two undulating young women. A tremendous cigar in his right hand, a bottle of rum in his left, he shouts, "Estoy en mi elemento!"

....My enthusiasm wanes slightly as I discover that discussions of any kind are hardly tolerated. A dull, authoritarian lecturer suffocates the freedom to express opinions and to engage in discourse. The seminar is run the way Cuba is run.None of the authors studied in the government-run organization, Casa de las Americas, seem to question the Revolution. Political discussion of any sort is conspicuously absent in interactions with local academics.

....Visitors expecting a society without a color line are rudely disappointed. Despite the ruling party's rhetoric, class divisions based on color are obvious. The legalization of US currency-a dissonant fusion of Castro and Batista-undermines the government's claims of egalitarianism. Foreigners must pay for everything in dollars. Thus, those who deal with the tourist industry--for the most part white--are far better off than the general populace, which is paid in pesos. Government officials, mostly white, collect part of their paychecks in dollars. Ironically, the exotic Cuban mulatta is the mascot of the government's tourism advertising campaigns.

Among our group are students whose parents had left Cuba decades earlier. Tensions between Cubans and their American counterparts (often referred to as the "Miami Mafia") can hurt encounters with locals and relatives. During such exchanges, slogans replace conversation: "Liberen a Elian!", "Venceremos!", "Viva la Patria!" ("Free Elian!" "We will overcome!", "Long live the Fatherland!")

The Museum of the Revolution in the Presidential Palace houses a shrine to the martyred revolutionary, Che Guevara. A sock, a jacket, and most prominently, several strands of his hair in a glass tube pose as relics of socialist worship. The cult of Che is evinced by his ubiquitous image. Eyes rolled heavenward amid bursting rays of light, el Che seems to replace the Christ figure in the common conciousness. Similarly, Cubans refer to their leader as "Fidel," rather than "Castro." In the U.S., it seems, people call only rock stars by their first names: Elvis, Madonna, Prince.

Within the courtyard of Palace, a group of boys in uniform perform a small concert. "Guantanamera, Guantanamee-eee--ra! Cuba Socialista!" they sing. At the end, a little girl runs to center stage, grabs the microphone and yells, "Viva Fidel! Viva la Patria! Viva la Patria!" On television, a three foot eleven inch boy steps to the mic at a rally for six-year-old cause celebre Elian. Facing a crowd of thousands, he shouts, "They say that we are the most unhappy kids in the world, but we are the happiest kids in the world! Why? Because we have Socialism! We have Jose Marti! We have the Bay of Pigs!" A rehearsed scowl overcomes his face. "The United States is a country of prostitution and misery!"

Cuba once housed of one of the largest sex industries in the West. Today the red light district endures with occasional crackdowns. A stream of foreign tourists abet "soft prostitution." Heavily made-up Gineteros and gineteras-some of which are children-troll Havana hoping to hook wealthy clients. Dinner at a nice restaurant and drinks at a local jazz club lead to sex.

In Havana, scores of unoccupied people sit outside their doorways. Kids roam the sidewalks, hustling puros (cigars); they drag their feet listlessly when turned down. Although poor and perhaps hungry, the people are generally outspoken, generous, hospitable. I sense a breath-holding hope for the future. The country is opening up, albeit in small steps-our visit seems a part of this change. I leave the Malecon sea promenade's time-scoured walls with the sound of jazz in my ears and the sense that, like Jorge, Cuba will one day celebrate being "en su elemento."

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 06:11 PM
I hope it is legal.
Come to Antwerp, here in Belgium. There are even special zones where prostitution is allowed ;)

[canikickit]

Amazing...it should be legal everywhere.

[Collective]

As one British minister put it, if you got to Cuba to sneer you'll fine problems on every street corner. But that means you miss the bigger picture, how Cuba demonstrates human potential, its real achievments.

That article does exactly that...goes to sneer. From when I've been in Cuba, I've seen things that aren't particularly nice. Things aren't perfect. But nothing is as bad as the anti-castro brigade makes out.

The reports that come out of Cuba about human rights abuses, terrible shortages, crisis after crisis are often written by people on the pay of the US who are given orders on what to write. That isn't propoganda...that is a fact! Just look at the transcripts of the recent trials of the 75 mercenaries to see the confessions and details revealed.

Cuba isn't paradise...but its a damn sight better than anywhere else in the third world for ordinary people, not the rich. The 'gusanos' in Miami have pumped out the same old lies for 40 years...but history has absolved the Cuban revolution.

In 1959 they said it wouldn't last...it has. In 1990 they said the Revolution would be defeated in a matter of weeks...it hasn't. Now they say when Fidel dies socialism will collapse...Cuba can confidently say it won't!

You see, what you fail to understand is the real source of frustration amongst ordinary Cubans. Hardly anybody has any problems with the political system...it is genuinly democratic and relies on popular participation. What they dislike is the economic situation...shortages and lack of consumer goods. That is down to the US blockade and loss of trade with the USSR and socialist bloc. Solve that problem...which the Cuban government is doing...and Cuban people are infinitely more happy.

The revolution isn't going anywhere...capitalism is failing millions around the world, it has failed in former socialist countries...Cuba won't give it a chance to fail working people there again.

[Urban Rubble]

Castro Sucks, what are you attempting to prove ? No one here believes Cuba is paradise without any problems. We know there is prostitution, name me somewhere on earth that there isn't.

We know of the class and race differences still existing due to the dollar being legalized. We know of the fluorishing black market culture due to the same thing. Just know, this has only really become a factor since the collapse of Socialism in the rest of the world.

We know of thr "tourist only" zones.

We know the flaws of Cuba, and we still believe that it is a viable alternative to U.S Capitalism and Imperialism.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Urban: I just don't want anyone to think cuba is a freaking paradise. Far from it. THATS my point. EVERY place has its share of problems...democratic, dictatorial or communist!

[ComradeRobertRiley]

personnally I dont know if its legal or not. I do believe that prostitution SHOULD be legal everwhere. There was a thread on here about if it should be legal or not. I should I think because if you say no then its going against peoples freedom

[Urban Rubble]

No, I agree, there are many problems with Cuba. But compare it to the rest of Latin America and it stacks up pretty fucking well.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 10:29 PM
Amazing...it should be legal everywhere.
True, since I don't see harm in such professions. Only they should control the biz, against any abuse or so ...

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 27 2003, 06:19 PM
True, since I don't see harm in such professions. Only they should control the biz, against any abuse or so ...
But doesn't this go AGAINST some socialist/communist teachings? How about the feminists? What do they think of prostitution? I mean, I would think it goes against every one of their advances. I wouldn't know, but I would like to find out.

[canikickit]

Prostitution should be legalised because legalisation would remove the criminal element. Through regulation, prostitutes would be able to earn a steady wage, in stable circumstances, without as much of a risk of violence as under the current system.

Earlier thread in politics. (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=18240)

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 10:35 PM
Prostitution should be legalised because legalisation would remove the criminal element. Through regulation, prostitutes would be able to earn a steady wage, in stable circumstances, without as much of a risk of violence as under the current system.

Earlier thread in politics. (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=18240)
I agree and how else is a loser or geek gonna lose their virginity?

[canikickit]

Probably with another "loser" or "geek", or to put it a nicer way; with someone they get on with.

[RedFW]

How about the feminists? What do they think of prostitution? I mean, I would think it goes against every one of their advances. I wouldn't know, but I would like to find out.

I can't speak for other feminists, and my views on prostitution, and sex in general, are not very 'mainstream feminist' anyway.

I am not sure exactly what you mean about it going against feminist advances, but I am guessing you mean issues associated with ideas such as all heterosexual sex being rape for women and women being reduced to nothing more than their bodies through prostitution, being nothing more than commodities and the horrible conditions in which many (most?) female prostitutes live and work in?

To dismiss feminist concerns as being nothing more than a patronising desire to liberate women in the lowest strata of society, something I have often heard opined, is to ignore the circumstances that lead many women into prostitution and the conditions they work in. And it dismisses the work feminists have done to highlight these problems.

Having said that, I disagree with puritanical feminist thought that considers heterosexual sex to be rape and that all women in sex work, indeed all women participating in heterosexual sex, to be enslaved or misguided and insists on working against the aims of sex workers who would like to see their work recognised and legalised to ensure the conditions they work in are improved. I should also mention that puritanical feminists have a history of forming alliances with the 'religious right' to achieve their aims.

Some women become prostitutes without being drawn into it out of economic necessity, though they may choose to do it because they can be exceptionally well paid. But these women should not be confused with women whose conditions and circumstances are very different or used to generalise all prostitution as harmless, easy money. Just as the woman who is in prostitution out of economic necessity or intimidation, who would leave it if she could, who is degraded by the circumstances of it, by not having a choice, cannot be substituted for the women who do it, enjoy it, are paid well for it and work in safer conditions. Both exist in prostitution.

Denying sexual agency to women isn't liberating women, and forming alliances with the group of people in the world most determined to take away what has been established in the west as a woman's fundamental right isn't a move that will engender any sort of autonomy for women. That is patronising.

In short, I agree with canikickit.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 10:35 AM
I am not sure exactly what you mean about it going against feminist advances....
I'm just wondering: Isn't it considered degrading to women? Something the feminist movement fights against? Hell, maybe they'll think its empowering, but I'm just wondering if its not something they'd disagree to.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 30 2003, 07:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 30 2003, 07:39 PM)
Desert [email protected] 27 2003, 06:19 PM
True, since I don&#39;t see harm in such professions. Only they should control the biz, against any abuse or so ...
But doesn&#39;t this go AGAINST some socialist/communist teachings? How about the feminists? What do they think of prostitution? I mean, I would think it goes against every one of their advances. I wouldn&#39;t know, but I would like to find out. [/b]
What teachings are you reffering to ?
Since when is making sure women don&#39;t get beaten up against communism ?

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 1 2003, 06:39 PM
What teachings are you reffering to ?
Since when is making sure women don&#39;t get beaten up against communism ?
I&#39;m ASKING if it DOES go against SOME communist teachings. I thought communism was supposed to benefit (and protect) EVERYONE under its rule...and this includes women. I thought it was supposed to be some all-knowing, all-caring form of government. Hey, perhaps I&#39;m wrong.

[Soul Rebel]

Not all feminists are against prostitution. There is no feminist bible, so we (feminists) all have different views on different subjects. So, while some feminists are against prostitution, some are for it.

Basically this is how it goes: Some types of feminists (such as Dworkin) are against any type of sex work (pornography, prostitution, stripping, etc.) because they find it degrading to all womyn and reinforces gender roles. However, there are some feminists who are "for it." This does not in any way necessarily mean that they are in favor of it or want womyn to take up sex work. What it usually does mean is that they are for its decriminalization and the ability to choose (to do sex work or not). I actually happen to be one of these feminists who are supportive of sex workers. I see it as a job like any other, i think it takes skill, i think these womyn offer a valuable and unique service, etc. I think it should be decriminalized because it would make it much safer and easier for the sex workers to actually work, to go to cops for help, to recieve help if raped and/or beaten, to recieve good health care, to control their wages, to unionize, etc.

There is so much involved in understanding sex work, especially when looked at from a feminist (radical, liberal, socialist/marxist, eco., multicultural, global)viewpoint. The issues revolve around race, class, gender, sexuality, the definition of erotica, labor laws, etc.

If you want to support sex workers and their movement go to one of these sites:
http://www.iswface.org
http://www.eda.org
http://www.coyotesea.org

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 1 2003, 08:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 1 2003, 08:51 PM)
Desert [email protected] 1 2003, 06:39 PM
What teachings are you reffering to ?
Since when is making sure women don&#39;t get beaten up against communism ?
I&#39;m ASKING if it DOES go against SOME communist teachings. I thought communism was supposed to benefit (and protect) EVERYONE under its rule...and this includes women. I thought it was supposed to be some all-knowing, all-caring form of government. Hey, perhaps I&#39;m wrong. [/b]
I&#39;m sorry, I misunderstood your question. I don&#39;t think it goes against any communist teaching, but I can&#39;t confirm it, since I have not yet studied all of the communist teachings ...