Provocation

[RGacky3]

dmPJaY3N4aQ

I would like to hear revlefts response to this?

Heres my opinion.

If you go out in a black neighborhood dressed as a KKK guy, I think that you should expect to get your ass kicked, not that a judge should allow it, but that he should take it into account.

I think the same goes for this thing, its just a guy being blatently a dick for no reason other than being a dick. If he WAS assulated, obviously the assaulter needs to get something, but you gotta take into account the other guy was provoking.

[Ostrinski]

This is like those Westboro shitheads picketing funerals.

[Franz Fanonipants]

yeah its not like americans haven't been violently extinguishing muslims for like the last decade in a concerted fashionits not like there's some kind of you know material process going on therejust ideas attacking ideas

[Guy Incognito]

yeah its not like americans haven't been violently extinguishing muslims for like the last decade in a concerted fashionits not like there's some kind of you know material process going on therejust ideas attacking ideas

Correction, it's not Americans as a whole who are doing it. It's the U.S. corporate controlled government that's doing it. I want no part of their bullshit towards innocent muslims around the world.

[Princess Luna]

dmPJaY3N4aQ

I would like to hear revlefts response to this?

Heres my opinion.

If you go out in a black neighborhood dressed as a KKK guy, I think that you should expect to get your ass kicked, not that a judge should allow it, but that he should take it into account.

I think the same goes for this thing, its just a guy being blatently a dick for no reason other than being a dick. If he WAS assulated, obviously the assaulter needs to get something, but you gotta take into account the other guy was provoking.
The atheist wasn't supposedly attacked because he was mocking a past injustice, like walking around a black neighborhood dressed as the KKK would be, he was attacked for mocking something the assailant considered scared which is completely different. That said there is no evidence that the judge is Muslim like the people on the right are screaming about, also the case was thrown out because there was insufficant evidence that Elbayomy actually laid hands on Perce, and wasn't just harrashing him verbally. The only objectional thing I see is the stupid lecture the Judge gave at the end

[NewLeft]

He'll cry free speech.. in three, two, one..

[Prometeo liberado]

I don't know whats more offensive, the idiot muslim letting the idiot atheist make him mad or the advertisement at the bottom of the screen pitching "the perfect golf swing"? As everyone knows a perfect golf wing is next to impossible.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Yeah, it's all context. I can't play the audio from the video, but my impression is that this "aetheist's provocation" plays into anti-Islamic sentiment. I mean there's just a huge difference in, for example, someone in the US saying the christian church has too much influence in government and a reactionary Egyptian saying the same thing when he/she in context is saying that Coptic Egyptians should not have the same respect and rights as other groups.

The way many liberal atheists in the US have interpreted the War on Terror is to blame religion abstractly for "causing" 9/11 (Islam) and the invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan (Evangelical Christianity). This is not only factually incorrect but plays into the same anti-Islamic sentiment that is used to excuse the wars and gives capitalism and the US's imperial project a free-pass.

[RGacky3]

Heres the thing, obviously this guy has the right to say whatever he wants, but when your blatently just trying to piss someone off (be it ANY reason), expect a backlash and don't ***** about it when it happens.

[l'Enfermé]

Assaulted? "He's choking me"? Seriously? I'd rather odd that he can talk normally while being chocked(the guy just put his hand on his shoulder from what I saw), and can keep his camera in his hands while being "assaulted".

Maybe if he gave him some bruises, broken bones/broken nose/teeth, whatever, that's assault.

Why is Mohammad a zombie anyways? It would be more logical to make him a pedophile that fucked 12 wives in the same bed while restricting his worshipers to 4, and calling himself the paragon of human virtue in that book he wrote.

[znk666]

I have to admit though,this guy's whole act was rather...Bland and uninventive.
Still,if the judge dismissed this case,it just shows how much of a failure the whole American system is.

[Saviorself]

The guy was marching in a zombie parade. Some people just need to chill the fuck out. The biggest problem here is that the judge in the case was a Muslim himself and let that influence his decision. Which was to reprimand the victim and let the assailant go. That man has no fucking business being on the bench and needs to be removed from his position IMMEDIATELY.

And yes, there is evidence that the judge is Muslim because he admitted it in the courtroom.

http://atheistoasis.wordpress.com/2012/02/25/judge-mark-w-martin-an-anti-american-anti-constitution-muslim-or-not-who-tries-to-enforce-blasphemy-laws-in-the-u-s/

[hatzel]

I spy with my little eye something beginning with URWR...

(By the way the answer is 'unashamedly right-wing rhetoric')

[Franz Fanonipants]

The guy was marching in a zombie parade. Some people just need to chill the fuck out. The biggest problem here is that the judge in the case was a Muslim himself and let that influence his decision. Which was to reprimand the victim and let the assailant go. That man has no fucking business being on the bench and needs to be removed from his position IMMEDIATELY.

whitemansay.txt

[LOLseph Stalin]

Wow, I'm a muslim and I don't get this worked up over images of Muhammad. People need to chill the fuck out. This just makes us look bad.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Wow, I'm a muslim and I don't get this worked up over images of Muhammad. People need to chill the fuck out. This just makes us look bad.

that's not what's going on

[LOLseph Stalin]

that's not what's going on

I know, it's a zombie Mo, but it's still not something worth getting so worked up about.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I know, it's a zombie Mo, but it's still not something worth getting so worked up about.

no one is worked up about it except the atheist

[Saviorself]

I spy with my little eye something beginning with URWR...

This isn't right-wing rhetoric, these are facts. You're just being intellectually dishonest.


whitemansay.txt

What does skin color matter? Are you racist?


no one is worked up about it except the atheist

Clearly, the assailant was worked up about it as he assaulted someone for a rather stupid reason. And if you aren't bothered by this miscarriage of justice, then, all I can really is says is "fuck you".

[Franz Fanonipants]

What does skin color matter? Are you racist?

honky cracker white devil

[#FF0000]

What does skin color matter? Are you racist?

white people are privileged and some don't realize that they are privileged.

Like you.


Clearly, the assailant was worked up about it as he assaulted someone for a rather stupid reason. And if you aren't bothered by this miscarriage of justice, then, all I can really is says is "fuck you".

hey look i'm an anarchist and i believe in the american justice system lol

[Franz Fanonipants]

anarchist i am rapidly learning is what milquetoast liberals w/privilege issues call themselves when they first post on revleft

that said this is a dude who busted out some unapologetic homophobia calling someone a racist so

[Saviorself]

white people are privileged and some don't realize that they are privileged.

None of that explains why skin color matters in what was said.


hey look i'm an anarchist and i believe in the american justice system lol

I believe in consistency. The fact remains, the judge was wrong in his ruling. Regardless of my political ideology.



that said this is a dude who busted out some unapologetic homophobia calling someone a racist so

I didn't call anyone racist, I asked if they were. I swear, a very large amount of you have some real serious issues with reading comprehension.

[Franz Fanonipants]

None of that explains why skin color matters in what was said.

cus only a clueless-ass white man would be like 'lol this situation happened completely context-free of anything!"

[Franz Fanonipants]

I didn't call anyone racist, I asked if they were.

laffo

[Guy Incognito]

honky cracker white devil


Man...now I really miss Richard Pryor.

[Saviorself]

cus only a clueless-ass white man would be like 'lol this situation happened completely context-free of anything!"

The fuck are you talking about? Some stupid ass Muslim got all worked up because some guy was dressed as a Zombie version of their misogynistic, pedophile prophet and then attacked him. And then a judge, who is supposed to uphold the law, let his own religious convictions get in the way of him doing the job he is supposed to do. This is complete bullshit. If you can not see that, you are a fucking moron.


laffo

Yeah, you are just a fucking moron.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The fuck are you talking about? Some stupid ass Muslim got all worked up because some guy was dressed as a Zombie version of their misogynistic, pedophile prophet and then attacked him. And then a judge, who is supposed to uphold the law, let his own religious convictions get in the way of him doing the job he is supposed to do. This is complete bullshit. If you can not see that, you are a fucking moron.

i bet you live in eugene

e: you racist piece of shit

[#FF0000]

Some stupid ass Muslim got all worked up because some guy was dressed as a Zombie version of their misogynistic, pedophile prophet and then attacked him.

laffo supreme

[NewLeft]

The fuck are you talking about? Some stupid ass Muslim got all worked up because some guy was dressed as a Zombie version of their misogynistic, pedophile prophet and then attacked him. And then a judge, who is supposed to uphold the law, let his own religious convictions get in the way of him doing the job he is supposed to do. This is complete bullshit. If you can not see that, you are a fucking moron.
What do you want? The muslim to go to jail and be out of your sight?

[Saviorself]

You would lose that bet. I hate Eugene, bunch of smelly hippies. And I don't live in Portland either. Also a bunch of smelly hippies. And Hipsters.


What do you want? The muslim to go to jail and be out of your sight?

Well, he should face some sort of recourse. And the judge should lose his job.

[Franz Fanonipants]

You would lose that bet. I hate Eugene, bunch of smelly hippies. And I don't live in Portland either. Also a bunch of smelly hippies. And Hipsters.

cool so you're a racist piece of shit in shag-ass white supremacist oregon

[Saviorself]

cool so you're a racist piece of shit in shag-ass white supremacist oregon

Wrong again. Dumbshit. I just don't like hippies or hipsters. This is not a matter of skin color. I think white supremacists are more annoying than hippies or hipsters. Which is why I have gotten in so many fights with them over the years.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Wrong again. Dumbshit. I just don't like hippies or hipsters. This is not a matter of skin color. I think white supremacists are more annoying than hippies or hipsters. Which is why I have gotten in so many fights with them over the years.

this is funny because you're basically a white supremacist

[#FF0000]

Wrong again. Dumbshit. I just don't like hippies or hipsters. This is not a matter of skin color. I think white supremacists are more annoying than hippies or hipsters. Which is why I have gotten in so many fights with them over the years.

seriousposting now i think that's more because you have your scene and they have theirs and its some dumb little scene rivalry. i say this because from reading your posts, you do not seem like a person who has seriously thought about their politics -- especially since you identify as an anarchist and use dumb bigoted language on the regular and apparently don't seem to understand how muslim people are 'othered' in western societies and how that sorta comes into play in this situation here.

[hatzel]

Which is why I have gotten in so many fights with them over the years.

News just in: we got a badass over here.

Also a new NGNM85.

Same guy.

[Saviorself]

this is funny because you're basically a white supremacist

Well that is a pretty fucking stupid thing to say. I do not think that any race is better than any other. People who think otherwise are just plain stupid. Even racial pride is stupid. Pride is satisfaction born through accomplishment. Being born into a specific race is not an accomplishment. You just don't like what I have to say so you lump me in with white supremacists. Which only makes you look like a moron. Hey, I can do it too: you are just a white supremacist nazi kkk asshole because I don't like what you have to say. If you can't make any logical argument, just shut the fuck up.

[Franz Fanonipants]

You just don't like what I have to say so you lump me in with white supremacists.

motherfucker you are wrong, just like white supremacists so...

[Saviorself]

seriousposting now i think that's more because you have your scene and they have theirs and its some dumb little scene rivalry.

No. Hippies are annoying because all they do is complain without ever doing much of anything to make a difference. Sitting in drum circles while getting stoned and smelling bad does not count as action. Hipsters are annoying because they think they are just soooo fucking cool for listening to shitty music and wearing vintage clothing and stupid sun glasses. How many hipsters does it take to screw in a light-bulb? It's a pretty obscure number and you have probably never heard of it.


use dumb bigoted language on the regular

Put up, or shut up.


and apparently don't seem to understand how muslim people are 'othered' in western societies and how that sorta comes into play in this situation here.

Oh, boohoo for the poor wittle Muslims. No belief is sacred and can/will be mocked. Including my own. Get over it.


motherfucker you are wrong, just like white supremacists so...

Hello troll, welcome to my ignore list. I say that not to make you mad, just to let you know that further coaxing from you will be a waste of time and effort.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Hello troll, welcome to my ignore list. I say that not to make you mad, just to let you know that further coaxing from you will be a waste of time and effort.

cobarde perro infeliz

[#FF0000]

No. Hippies are annoying because all they do is complain without ever doing much of anything to make a difference. Sitting in drum circles while getting stoned and smelling bad does not count as action. Hipsters are annoying because they think they are just soooo fucking cool for listening to shitty music and wearing vintage clothing and stupid sun glasses. How many hipsters does it take to screw in a light-bulb? It's a pretty obscure number and you have probably never heard of it.

okay tell me what you think of those dumb preps now too


Put up, or shut up.

dude you are restricted mainly because you called everyone 'faggots' in all caps and then you tried to say 'b-b-b-b-b-but i was frustrated!'

And now that we remember that, it's doubly stupid that you're on this muslim guy for losing his cool here.


Oh, boohoo for the poor wittle Muslims. No belief is sacred and can/will be mocked. Including my own. Get over it.

so it's cool for, like, people to harass muslims in America for being muslim?

what do you think of people defacing synagogues?

[NewLeft]

Well that is a pretty fucking stupid thing to say. I do not think that any race is better than any other. People who think otherwise are just plain stupid. Even racial pride is stupid. Pride is satisfaction born through accomplishment. Being born into a specific race is not an accomplishment. You just don't like what I have to say so you lump me in with white supremacists. Which only makes you look like a moron. Hey, I can do it too: you are just a white supremacist nazi kkk asshole because I don't like what you have to say. If you can't make any logical argument, just shut the fuck up.

Posts: 88 :lol:

If you were of a racial group that was divided and conquered/discriminated and you took up racial pride, that is not as delusional as majority pride.

[Guy Incognito]

Being as white as white can get (German/Irish mix), I know damn well that we have some BS advantages. Accept them, remind yourself that we're all brothers and sisters in the class war, regardless of inherit ability and move on. This shit with "clearly he's racist, because he's a muslim too" is fucking clownshoes. So you're saying a gay man can't preside over gay marriage laws too right? Or how about a woman on women's rights? Fuck that. If he's a judge, he's to be inheritly presumed as impartial, no matter his race/religion/gender/sexual pref. Just because he rules in favor of someone else who happens to be muslim it doesn't mean shit unless a higher court (professional bullshit callers) calls bullshit.

[Saviorself]

okay tell me what you think of those dumb preps now too

I'm indifferent. Even in high school they were of no concern to me.


dude you are restricted mainly because you called everyone 'faggots' in all caps and then you tried to say 'b-b-b-b-b-but i was frustrated!'

I was just explaining why I said what I said. I wasn't trying to justify it. Nor am I apologetic for it either. You said I use "bigoted language on the regular". One time is hardly "on the regular".


so it's cool for, like, people to harass muslims in America for being muslim?

I think it is fine to question and mock ALL beliefs. Whether religious, political or otherwise.


what do you think of people defacing synagogues?

Senseless vandalism is exactly that. You are trying to equate questioning and mocking religion with irrational hatred of a person because of their religion. There is a difference here. I'd think that would be obvious. But that would require a modicum of common-sense...


If you were of a racial group that was divided and conquered/discriminated and you took up racial pride, that is not as delusional as majority pride.

Pride in anything other than an actual accomplishment is stupid. Being born into a certain race is not an accomplishment. Being born in a certain country is not an accomplishment.


"clearly he's racist, because he's a muslim too"

I never said that. What I did say was that the judge let his religion influence his judgement. And it did.


he's to be inheritly presumed as impartial

Yes, he is supposed to be impartial, and he wasn't. Read the court transcript. He pretty much admits he sides with the Muslim guy because he to was offended at the actions of the victim. So fucking what?! It doesn't matter if it was offensive. His job is to uphold the law, not pick sides because he happens to agree with one party. What if this was turned around and a Muslim was attacked by a white supremacist and the judge, also being a white supremacist, sided with the assailant and castigated the victim. I guarantee every single one of you would be up in arms about it then.

[hatzel]

I think what Saviorself has to learn is that - despite what the cute little slogan on his avatar may suggest - calling yourself an anti-theist and being all "fuck you mum and dad you can't tell me what to do!" and "piss off teacher you're not the boss of me!" isn't really enough to make you an anarchist of any meaningful description. An important fact that many fail to recognise...

[Guy Incognito]

I think what Saviorself has to learn is that - despite what the cute little slogan on his avatar may suggest - calling yourself an anti-theist and being all "fuck you mum and dad you can't tell me what to do!" and "piss off teacher you're not the boss of me!" isn't really enough to make you an anarchist of any meaningful description. An important fact that many fail to recognise...

Is it bad that every time I read one of your posts, I read it with Topcat's voice in my head? Also, I've never met (in person) an "Anarchist" that wasn't this way frankly.

[Franz Fanonipants]

white teenager thinks life is fair; he becomes an anarchist

[#FF0000]

I'm indifferent. Even in high school they were of no concern to me.

neat.

I think it is fine to question and mock ALL beliefs. Whether religious, political or otherwise.


Senseless vandalism is exactly that. You are trying to equate questioning and mocking religion with irrational hatred of a person because of their religion. There is a difference here. I'd think that would be obvious. But that would require a modicum of common-sense...
Nah it's fine to question people's big dumb beliefs but I think you're missing the point that muslims are harassed and "othered" in America and it spills over to affect basically all brown people. I know my indian friends have been verbally accosted about 'what they did on 9/11' more than a few times, and I know at work my Egyptian co-workers have been harassed as well. These are anecdotes, yeah, but my point is that people who are muslim or 'look muslim' are under a microscope these days. The police spy on them, people harass them, and politicians act like they're enemies of the state.

And you, in your boundless ignorance, either ignore this completely, don't acknowledge that this atmosphere exists, or don't think it matters.

EDIT: holy shit i am bad at posting on the internet

[Saviorself]

I think what Saviorself has to learn is that - despite what the cute little slogan on his avatar may suggest - calling yourself an anti-theist and being all "fuck you mum and dad you can't tell me what to do!" and "piss off teacher you're not the boss of me!" isn't really enough to make you an anarchist of any meaningful description. An important fact that many fail to recognise...

What I think you need to learn is that - despite what you may think - you know fuck all about my political beliefs and are in no position to judge what I am or am not. As it is, I have a great relationship with my parents and my teachers.

[Ele'ill]

Also, I've never met (in person) an "Anarchist" that wasn't this way frankly.

I see you haven't met too many anarchists. But this thread has gotten too good to derail it with such conversation.

[Ele'ill]

What I think you need to learn is that - despite what you may think - you know fuck all about my political beliefs and are in no position to judge what I am or am not. As it is, I have a great relationship with my parents and my teachers.

Your political beliefs and whatever other beliefs come out in your posts as I have told you before. We are going to either agree with those beliefs or we're going to reject and criticize those beliefs.

[Saviorself]

And you, in your boundless ignorance, either ignore this completely, don't acknowledge that this atmosphere exists, or don't think it matters.

How does that give a person the right to attack someone for dressing up like a zombie Mohammad?


We are going to either agree with those beliefs or we're going to reject and criticize those beliefs.

That's fine, but it seems like people spend more time criticizing things I have never said.

[Franz Fanonipants]

How does that give a person the right to attack someone for dressing up like a zombie Mohammad?

the minute the guy dressed up like zombie pedophile monster baby eater muhammad was the minute that he gave others the right to attack him

[#FF0000]

How does that give a person the right to attack someone for dressing up like a zombie Mohammad?

Because his reaction makes a lot of sense when you consider that he lives in a society which is hell-bent on excluding him, othering him, belittling him, attacking him.

[Saviorself]

The court system worked in favour of a minority for once.. Good job, judge.

So a person shouldn't face any legal trouble simply because they are a minority? That's pretty stupid.


Because his reaction makes a lot of sense when you consider that he lives in a society which is hell-bent on excluding him, belittling him, attacking him.

But he wasn't under any sort of attack. He is free to have his religion, and people are free to mock religion. If he wants to live like that, he can go to some Muslim run country where they actually have laws against blasphemy.

[Franz Fanonipants]

how does owning the means of production give people the right to attack and overturn you

[#FF0000]

But he wasn't under any sort of attack.

Man, if someone was marching down my street dressed up as a drunk catholic priest throwing shamrocks and yellin 'top of the morning to ye' i'd get a little pissed too and i'm an irish atheist in 2012. i imagine if it were still the 'irish need not apply' days and if irish people were portrayed as the 'big bad' in all media then my reaction would be a little over the top as well, no matter my religion.

e: i am trying really really hard to put this into perspective for you

[Bostana]

This is total provactivity.

It' so stupid the Atheists know they're just instigating things with theists. They just do it to bother people.

Just because you don't like religion doesn't mean you have to insult every breathing moment.

[Guy Incognito]

I see you haven't met too many anarchists. But this thread has gotten too good to derail it with such conversation.

You are absolutely right. I have not met all that many, and none since I left my year of college. Which honestly is most likely why they were still in the "Fuck you dad!" phase.

[NewLeft]

So a person shouldn't face any legal trouble simply because they are a minority? That's pretty stupid.
Just trying to provoke you. :sneaky:

[Saviorself]

Man, if someone was marching down my street dressed up as a drunk catholic priest throwing shamrocks and yellin 'top of the morning to ye' i'd get a little pissed too and i'm an irish atheist in 2012.

I'm part Irish and I would laugh my ass off. Again, the guy who was attacked was taking part in ZOMBIE MARCH. It is not as if he, acting alone, went to a neighborhood that was predominantly Muslim and started spewing hate speech against Muslims while dressed as Mohammad. In that instance, I can see someone getting pissed off. But that wasn't the case. What we have here is one irrational individual who needs to lighten the fuck up. In doing what he did, he is only adding fuel to the fire that causes so many people to fear and distrust Muslims.

I'm atheist too and I also like some Satanic philosophy but I am not going to get all pissed off if someone were to mock Christopher Hitchens or Anton LaVey.


Just trying to provoke you.

Well why would you do that? In exchanging PM's with you, you have come across as an alright person. Don't force me to change that opinion. ;)

[#FF0000]

I'm atheist too and I also like some Satanic philosophy but I am not going to get all pissed off if someone were to mock Christopher Hitchens or Anton LaVey.

let's try the socratic method

what is the difference between being an atheist in America 2012 and a Muslim in America 2012?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

On the one hand, the atheist has the right to say what he wants. Just because the Muslim finds what he says offensive doesn't justify attacking the guy. On the other hand, the atheist was kinda being a jerk. I have mixed feelings about it. I am a big supporter of free speech, so I do think it is wrong to attack someone for saying something you don't agree with or find offensive. On the other hand, atheists that go out and start stuff with people of faith give atheists such as me a bad name and make us look completely intolerant.

[Saviorself]

atheist in America 2012 and a Muslim in America 2012?

One believes in imaginary friends, one doesn't. Both face their own persecution too. I might even say that atheists are more feared than Muslims.

[Guy Incognito]

One believes in imaginary friends, one doesn't. Both face their own persecution too. I might even say that atheists are more feared than Muslims.

You are out of your goddamn mind. Seriously, take a step back and reread what you just typed.

[#FF0000]

One believes in imaginary friends, one doesn't. Both face their own persecution too. I might even say that atheists are more feared than Muslims.

Uh huh.

Do people get beat up or harassed for 'looking' like an atheist?

[Saviorself]

You are out of your goddamn mind. Seriously, take a step back and reread what you just typed.

No need, I know what I typed. And I stand by it. If you think atheists don't face persecution for their lack of belief, you are out of YOUR damn mind.


Do people get beat up or harassed for 'looking' like an atheist?

I've been harassed for wearing a shirt that says "There is no god." So, yes, it does happen.

And the fact that Muslims are harassed for being Muslim (which I have never once denied) does not give them any right to attack someone for making fun of their religion. Nor does it give the judge any right to let his religion get in the way of doing his job. Which is my main problem with the whole thing. Church and State are supposed to be separate.

And on that note, I am taking a break from this discussion to attend to other matters. I will revisit this later this evening so we can continue. I would also like to thank #FF0000 for at least attempting to pursue this debate in a logical manner. Many of you could take a lesson from him/her.

[Franz Fanonipants]

no mames wey

[Franz Fanonipants]

I'm atheist too and I also like some Satanic philosophy but I am not going to get all pissed off if someone were to mock Christopher Hitchens or Anton LaVey.

haha you basically are down on religion thats ostensibly about community/charity and for a religious version of ayn rand

you are the best teenager on revleft

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Uh huh.

Do people get beat up or harassed for 'looking' like an atheist?

Considering the vile reactions (http://freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/01/that-christian-compassion/) to people like Jessica Ahlquist who merely want schools to follow their own secular rules designed to prevent religious favouritism, as well as the fact that atheists are America's least trusted minority (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/edgell/home/Strib%20Atheist%20Faith%20and%20Values.html), I would not be surprised at all if people in the US who are overt in their lack of religion are liable to face harassment and abuse.

It's not like negative social attitudes are some kind of zero-sum Oppression Olympics. It's not as if every person pulled off a plane for being suspiciously brown somehow negates anti-atheist discrimination or vice versa. In fact, if the overblown rhetoric of the American right-wing is any indication, reactionaries are happy to lump the two (muslims, atheists) together along with other groups they don't like into some kind of amorphous, monolithic mass that wants to destroy America.

[Franz Fanonipants]

It's not like negative social attitudes are some kind of zero-sum Oppression Olympics. It's not as if every person pulled off a plane for being suspiciously brown somehow negates anti-atheist discrimination or vice versa. In fact, if the overblown rhetoric of the American right-wing is any indication, reactionaries are happy to lump the two (muslims, atheists) together along with other groups they don't like into some kind of amorphous, monolithic mass that wants to destroy America.

unless you can directly prove that atheists suffer from a pattern of violence or systematic oppression this is pretty much bullshit

for example i might think atheism is hilarious but i sure wouldn't deny someone a job for wearing a "God is a mass hallucination t-shirt"

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

unless you can directly prove that atheists suffer from a pattern of violence or systematic oppression this is pretty much bullshit

So documented threats of rape and murder against a 16 year old girl because her actions were percieved to be "against Christianity", as well as a scientific poll carried out by a university isn't good enough for you?


for example i might think atheism is hilarious but i sure wouldn't deny someone a job for wearing a "God is a mass hallucination t-shirt"

Forgive me for not believing a word of that.

Regardless, you may be a perfect angel who would never arbitrarily deny an atheist anything, but you are hardly representative of American Christendom in that case.

[Franz Fanonipants]

So documented threats of rape and murder against a 16 year old girl because her actions were percieved to be "against Christianity", as well as a scientific poll carried out by a university isn't good enough for you?

nope

i need you to show me systematic, material conditions shit going on. show me how atheists are marginalized in relation to means of production, show me how violence against atheists is a way to galvanize religious sections of the working class against their class interests.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Forgive me for not believing a word of that.

you should cus hilarious really is the best word for vocal atheists
its like a political cause devoted to defending liking vegemite. sure a lot of people think you're weird for liking it but no one is going to bury you in a mass grave for it.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

nope

i need you to show me systematic, material conditions shit going on.

Being threatened with rape and murder aren't "material conditions"? Funny definition of "material" you have going there.


show me how atheists are marginalized in relation to means of production,

Why the fuck should I be defending claims I did not make?

It's clear that whatever your definition of oppression is, you want it to exclude atheists.


show me how violence against atheists is a way to galvanize religious sections of the working class against their class interests.

Because it divides the working class against itself, making it less effective at defending it's own interests. A brilliant way of doing that is to fill the socio-political discourse with irrelevant religious/"moral" crap, which funnily enough happens a lot in the US.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Being threatened with rape and murder aren't "material conditions"? Funny definition of "material" you have going there.


when atheists make up an outrageous amount of the population of prisons in the us i will concede that atheists are oppressed.

which is to say i basically think you are full of shit. not as a person but as a person who has decided that atheism is a key part of your political identity.

[hatzel]

a scientific poll carried out by a university

Heh. What you actually mean is some guy called up a load of people and said "hey, doing a little study here, just wondering...do you hate Muslims?" and a bunch of them said "oh no no, of course not! I'm a nice person!" and the guy said "here we have proof that Americans don't hate Muslims!" and then we all went home. Protip: bigots don't always admit to it straight up.

Forgive me if such a 'scientific' study doesn't exactly do it for me. I mean just look here:


"We were pretty surprised by the results," Edgell said. "We thought that in the wake of 9/11, people would target Muslims.So here we're acknowledging here that there is an absolutely fucking gigantic elephant in the room, namely 9/11 and the subsequent targetting of Muslims and the scapegoating and the right-wing anti-Muslim rhetoric that absolutely every single individual in America is fully aware of. And the shadow cast by this elephant is so big and so dark and so obvious to everybody that only the proudest bigot would dream of openly admitting to their Islamophobia, because the stigma around such an admission in the current socio-political climate - in which Muslims and 'Muslim-looking' individuals are routinely targetted and discriminated against in many walks of life - is so pervasive that anybody with even the slightest slither of tolerance would vehemently deny any association with it. But we don't care what they say about themselves when they want people to think they're tolerant, but what they do and what they think out on the street, and when push comes to shove I guarantee you a lot of those people who said they'd be fine with their kid marrying a Muslim because they wanted to save face and wanted to feel good about themselves with be saying "no no no I just don't think he's right for you," and they'll be looking suspiciously and brown people on the plane and they'll be avoiding certain neighbourhoods after dark and all that shit latent racists do, and they'll be saying that Muslims aren't fit to judge a case like the one in this thread because they're subverting the glorious American legal system with their sneaking shariah and Islamic blasphemy laws in through the back door or some bullshit like that...

And what reason is there for people who aren't so fond of atheists to hold back from admitting it? Because I can't think of a single reason...I mean it's not even racism, that filthy filthy word...and perhaps this brings the accuracy of this 'scientific study' into question, and perhaps instead we should be looking at the hard facts, like the number of assaults caused by this widespread 'distrust' of atheists or how many atheists end up getting searched at the airport or arrested or something substantial that isn't based on what people are willing to admit about themselves to some randomer over the blower. And if those figures match up, then I might be so kind as to acknowledge that the anti-atheist sentiment in America is worth my attention, that is to say, that it's both significant and systematic.

[Saviorself]

Why the fuck should I be defending claims I did not make?

I've noticed a metric fuck ton of that going on here at this board in the short time I have been on here. Whoops, I imagine someone is going to tell me that saying "metric fuck ton" is insensitive to people who use the metric system. After all, we have to walk on eggshells around everyone -- unless of course we don't agree with what they say. But I digress.

[9]

A lot of people in America have negative opinions of Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists and environmentalists and redheads and used car salesman, a lot of those categories of people experience a certain degree of hostility from society, that doesn't mean any of them are oppressed‐‐they are not.

There is more to social oppression than just having a trait or an opinion or a belief that wider society disapproves of.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

The Muslim was the idiot who could not take the slightest insult to his beliefs, and the liberal atheist was the idiot who used ignorant and bourgeois methods of provocation to acheive nothing. When two idiots clash, expect bad things to happen. It's not that hard to understand.

[hatzel]

Whoops, I imagine someone is going to tell me that saying "metric fuck ton" is insensitive to people who use the metric system.

Oh I dunnooooo...I guess you could always just get it printed on a t-shirt and see if this results in your being oppressed and then we'd know...

Also yeah lay off the metric system that stuff's dynamite...

Also seriously if you just maybe didn't say offensive stuff then you wouldn't have to worry about anybody taking offence but as it stands that's not the case so meh whatcha gon do...

[Saviorself]

if you just maybe didn't say offensive stuff then you wouldn't have to worry about anybody taking offence but as it stands that's not the case so meh whatcha gon do...

I'm sure no matter what I say, someone here will find a way to take it completely out of context and get offended by it.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

when atheists make up an outrageous amount of the population of prisons in the us i will concede that atheists are oppressed.

It's not as if arbitrary imprisonment is the only way that social stigma occurs. I doubt there is an overabundance of Jews in US prisons. That does not mean that people aren't otherwise targeted for being Jews. I will concede that atheists have not been subject to same scale and depth of oppression as blacks and others in the US, but like I said, it's not some bullshit zero-sum situation where the magnitude of one bunch of crimes is somehow decreased by acknowledging the existence of a different bunch of lesser ones.


which is to say i basically think you are full of shit. not as a person but as a person who has decided that atheism is a key part of your political identity.

I don't see why I need to be oppressed as an atheist in order to somehow validate my atheism as part of my political worldview.


Heh. What you actually mean is some guy called up a load of people and said "hey, doing a little study here, just wondering...do you hate Muslims?" and a bunch of them said "oh no no, of course not! I'm a nice person!" and the guy said "here we have proof that Americans don't hate Muslims!" and then we all went home. Protip: bigots don't always admit to it straight up.

Forgive me if such a 'scientific' study doesn't exactly do it for me. I mean just look here:

So your assessment of the scientific validity of the study is not based on the study itself, but on a wild extrapolation of one comment by one member of the team? You didn't think to try and find it yourself and look at it? Perhaps if they were aware of the social situation as you describe it, they would have designed the questions to control for that fact? Well, you certainly weren't any help in that regard.


And what reason is there for people who aren't so fond of atheists to hold back from admitting it? Because I can't think of a single reason...I mean it's not even racism, that filthy filthy word...and perhaps this brings the accuracy of this 'scientific study' into question, and perhaps instead we should be looking at the hard facts, like the number of assaults caused by this widespread 'distrust' of atheists or how many atheists end up getting searched at the airport or arrested or something substantial that isn't based on what people are willing to admit about themselves to some randomer over the blower. And if those figures match up, then I might be so kind as to acknowledge that the anti-atheist sentiment in America is worth my attention, that is to say, that it's both significant and systematic.

OK, so social stigma has to be on a certain scale in order for it to be not beneath your notice. If you ever have children, I hope you'll deign to remember to tell them that beating up other kids because they're ginger (or atheist) is not cool.

[CommunityBeliever]

As a very strong atheist I stated in the appealing religions thread that I find Buddhism relatively appealing because it is an atheist religion and it has some good ideas. However, despite this "appeal" the fact is that Buddhism is a feudal religion whose methods (e.g the eightfold path) are outdated, so just like ever other religion it has no place in the modern world. Hinduism is even worse as it generally leads people to believe in superstitions such as god and reincarnation. Worse yet are the absolutely revolting Abrahamic religions which originated with a band of primitive desert dwelling barbarians and not even from the relatively enlightened ancient Indian societies that existed at the time. All religions have are relics from the past and they should be thrown out.


which is to say i basically think you are full of shit. not as a person but as a person who has decided that atheism is a key part of your political identity.

In that case, like NoXion, I am "full of shit". I have not only decided that atheism is a key part of my political identity, I support using cultural revolution to throw out all superstitious relics from modern society.

I support the great proletarian cultural revolution (GPCR) which was launched by the Chinese proletariat in 1966. In this revolution religion was condemned as the feudalistic institution that it is and thousands of religious buildings were transformed into more useful institutions. Inspired by the GCPR, the Albanian proletariat launched their own ideological and cultural revolution in 1967 which replaced alll churches, mosques, monasteries, and other religious institutions with cultural centers, workshops, gymnasiums, warehouses, and other more useful institutions.

All religious institutions are relics from ancient society that no longer serve any purpose. As such, we should emulate the cultural revolutionary process that occurred in China and Albania across the entire world in order to ensure that science, technology, and socialism are understood to be the true path to human betterment.


when atheists make up an outrageous amount of the population of prisons in the us i will concede that atheists are oppressed.

It is precisely the fact that we atheists are such a small minority amongst a majority of religious bafoons in the US that leads us to be oppressed. You may question rather or not this can oppression can be qualified as "systematic" but it still is oppression.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I have not only decided that atheism is a key part of my political identity, I support using cultural revolution to throw out all superstitious relics from modern society.

you're a reactionary for that and a hypocrite as i strongly doubt you'll persecute your ridiculous scientisim superstition come revolutionary time

[Guy Incognito]

So when you people decide to tear down all the beautiful artworks that the world's religions have created, will you feel that you've done something great for history and human culture? Doing the work of the righteous perhaps? How about when you outlaw the gathering of people for non-state approved meetings (for surely, that's the only way you could enforce the removal of all religion)? Will you cart off believers to re-education camps? or just their children? For surely it's to be considered abuse, if they're teaching unapproved and "harmful" material.
Or maybe, we let people believe what they want to believe and only intervene when they attempt to push it on the rest of society.

[Ismail]

The anti-religious movement in Albania was primarily so strong because Albanian national sentiment was seen as contradictory to religion. Pashko Vasa, one of Albania's most notable patriots of the 19th century, wrote, "Wake up, ye Albanians, wake up/ And get united in a single faith/ Priests and Hodjas are trying to fool you/ So as to keep you divided and enslaved/ Let not Mosques and Churches keep you apart/ The true religion of the Albanian is Albanianism!" The Frashëri brothers belonged to the Bektashi faith (regarded as heretical by mainstream Muslims) and called for unity between all Albanians regardless of religious beliefs.

At that time Albanians were seen as... nothing. They didn't exist according to Ottoman authorities (who classified them as "Turks" and Muslims) or Greek ecclesiastical authorities (who classified them as "Greeks" and Orthodox Christians.) The Albanian language was banned and Albania got its first alphabet only in 1908. Large swathes of southern Albania were occupied by Greece during WWI because the Greek Government used the argument that any Greek Orthodox person was somehow a Greek national as well.

During WWII the Italian and Nazi German invaders relied to a fair extent on collaboration with the local clergy. During WWII the reactionary Metaxas regime in Greece took advantage of the large amount of Albanian defections from the invading Italian armies (who also welcomed the Greeks as the liberators of Albanian soil) to proclaim Korça, Gjirokastra and other regions in southern Albania "liberated" for Greece. The postwar Albanian Government also strongly resented the ties the Vatican wanted to maintain with the Catholic Church in the country, especially since counter-revolutionary Catholic revolts occurred in the early years after liberation in the northern, tribal areas. Greece continued to claim southern Albania for itself as late as 1971 and was in a technical state of war with the country until 1987.

So the anti-religious campaign had actual grounding, it wasn't just Hoxha waking up one day and saying "oh hey, I'm going to lead a campaign to completely eradicate religious practices just because."

Also in the mid-90's Nexhmije (his wife) was interviewed on the subject:

"Perhaps the abolition of religion was excessive,' the Widow finally admitted. 'But Enver had no wish to destroy churches and mosques. It was our Chinese allies, who were the only ones helping us financially and militarily, and the younger members of the Party who forced that on him. Enver and I only wanted Muslims, Orthodox Christians and Catholics to live peaceably side by side. And we were right. We wanted everyone to feel they were just Albanians. And see what is happening now in the Balkans as the result of religious and ethnic conflicts. History will prove us right. Capitalist propaganda described us as backward and introverted. On the contrary, you will come to realise that ours was a modern vision.'"
(Riccardo Orizio. Talk of the Devil: Encounters With Seven Dictators. New York: Walker & Company. 2002. p. 102.)

[CommunityBeliever]

you're a reactionary for that and a hypocrite as i strongly doubt you'll persecute your ridiculous scientisim superstition come revolutionary time

How am I a reactionary for that. Do you oppose the greatest step towards socialism in human history, the GPCR? Do you also oppose the cultural and ideological revolution in Albania? Furthermore, what do you mean by "riduculous scientism superstitution"? I believe that the scientific method is universally applicable and it is the only reliable means of avoiding superstition.


So when you people decide to tear down all the beautiful artworks that the world's religions have created, will you feel that you've done something great for history and human culture?

I don't instead to tear down any pieces of art. All historical works of art should at the very least be stored in a digital archive.


Or maybe, we let people believe what they want to believe and only intervene when they attempt to push it on the rest of society.

Religion doesn't exist on its own merits the current state of religion is the culmination of thousands of years of pushing nonsense down people's throats. The conquistadors, missionaries, crusades, witch-hunts, inquistions, fatwas, etc were all parts of this process. In modern times, children get religion pushed down their throats by their pants and then when they grow up they are stuck in religions because of the fear of hell and the financial power of organised religion. Religion is like a virus, it effects people involuntary. For more information see The God Virus: How religion infects our lives and culture (2009).

The purpose of cultural revolution isn't to push ideas on down people's throats it is to cure people of sicknesses and delusions like religion so that free thinking and rationality can flourish. Pushing ideas on people is the practice of religions and superstitions so we are completely opposed to that. I believe everyone should be free to decide for themselves what to believe on all issues.

[RGacky3]

Inspired by the GCPR, the Albanian proletariat launched their own ideological and cultural revolution in 1967 which replaced alll churches, mosques, monasteries, and other religious institutions with cultural centers, workshops, gymnasiums, warehouses, and other more useful institutions.

All religious institutions are relics from ancient society that no longer serve any purpose. As such, we should emulate the cultural revolutionary process that occurred in China and Albania across the entire world in order to ensure that science, technology, and socialism are understood to be the true path to human betterment.


If you REALLY believe that atheism is true and the philosophy of freed minds, why would you need a revolution to actively destroy faith?

All you'd need is to destroy institutions that FORCE people into faith, those institutions don't exist for the most part in most of the world, if you really believe that without coercion people would freely choose atheism then just let time run its coarse.

Most people today suffer no systemic consequences for being atheist, having your family not like you is'nt a systemic consequence, any more than changing your political ideology.

Your wanting to force your philosophy on people through a kind of cultural revolution is basically admission that you don't really believe in your philosophy.

[Guy Incognito]

How am I a reactionary for that. Do you oppose the greatest step towards socialism in human history, the GPCR? Do you also oppose the cultural and ideological revolution in Albania? Furthermore, what do you mean by "riduculous scientism superstitution"? I believe that the scientific method is universally applicable and it is the only reliable means of avoiding superstition.



I don't instead to tear down any pieces of art. All historical works of art should at the very least be stored in a digital archive.



Religion doesn't exist on its own merits the current state of religion is the culmination of thousands of years of pushing nonsense down people's throats. The conquistadors, missionaries, crusades, witch-hunts, inquistions, fatwas, etc were all parts of this process. In modern times, children get religion pushed down their throats by their pants and then when they grow up they are stuck in religions because of the fear of hell and the financial power of organised religion. Religion is like a virus, it effects people involuntary. For more information see The God Virus: How religion infects our lives and culture (2009).

The purpose of cultural revolution isn't to push ideas on down people's throats it is to cure people of sicknesses and delusions like religion so that free thinking and rationality can flourish. Pushing ideas on people is the practice of religions and superstitions so we are completely opposed to that. I believe everyone should be free to decide for themselves what to believe on all issues.

Religion is a virus? My you anti-theists are grasping at straws to denounce that which you hate. From my own experience with religion, all of it was positive (it was, of course, sadly all hokum). I had none of your involuntary force. I was taught by my parents, and when I disagreed, they not only allowed my leaving of the church, but helped me with my personal need for knowledge. They bought me encyclopedias. There was no evil empire of the Lutheran church out to drag me back, or face their financial wrath. There was no "you'll burn in hell if you don't come back!". I still on occasion see my old pastor. He's a very cordial old gentleman. His wife, is a lovely older lady. Both have never wished ill upon me for my atheism. Again, there is force in the world, and it should be stopped. But if I ever go back to a church, for that lost sense of community, it would be MY choice.

"Cure people of sicknesses and delusions". Chilling statement. You're describing thoughts and beliefs (those which you disagree with) as a sickness. I implore you, think critically about that line of reasoning (unless you're a stalinist, in which case I suppose it makes sense...). No good can come of it. It is also the opposite of "I believe everyone should be free to decide for themselves what to believe on all issues".

[Franz Fanonipants]

How am I a reactionary for that. Do you oppose the greatest step towards socialism in human history, the GPCR? Do you also oppose the cultural and ideological revolution in Albania? Furthermore, what do you mean by "riduculous scientism superstitution"? I believe that the scientific method is universally applicable and it is the only reliable means of avoiding superstition.

scientism.txt

e: i don't oppose anything that happened 50+ years ago in a place that isn't the us i just idgaf and find your superstitious worship of the scientific method hilarious.

[hatzel]

But Franz you're forgetting that scientism + internet = communism. That's pretty much the only viable revolutionary programme.

[Franz Fanonipants]

burn scientism practitioners at the stake for anti-dialectical thought and clinging to modernist superstition.

e: i mean realistically guys communitybeliever is the kind of numbnuts who thinks that a "globalized world" is a new thing. this is what happens when STEM is constantly hyped over anything else.

[manic expression]

As a very strong atheist I stated in the appealing religions thread that I find Buddhism relatively appealing because it is an atheist religion and it has some good ideas. However, despite this "appeal" the fact is that Buddhism is a feudal religion whose methods (e.g the eightfold path) are outdated, so just like ever other religion it has no place in the modern world. Hinduism is even worse as it generally leads people to believe in superstitions such as god and reincarnation. Worse yet are the absolutely revolting Abrahamic religions which originated with a band of primitive desert dwelling barbarians and not even from the relatively enlightened ancient Indian societies that existed at the time. All religions have are relics from the past and they should be thrown out.
First of all, you can't call a religion "feudal" just because it happens to have arisen from a time and place where society was kind of (but not really) feudal. Second, we continue all sorts of things that began in the (actual) feudal age...if you hate all things feudal then you should tell us how much you hate unions. Third, believing in divinity is no more a "superstition" than believing in love, and the idea of reincarnation is likewise not a superstition but a metaphysical concept.

Fourth, I'm definitely no supporter of the Abrahamic religions, but I fail to see how being in a desert climate makes much of a difference.

Fifth, religion comes to us from the past but it is not beholden to it. Religions change as the societies around them change, which is precisely why all the revolutions of modern society only brought new forms of religious organization and belief and expression, not the end of them.


It is precisely the fact that we atheists are such a small minority amongst a majority of religious bafoons in the US that leads us to be oppressed. You may question rather or not this can oppression can be qualified as "systematic" but it still is oppression.
Correction: non-Christians are discriminated against in the US. Atheists aren't special in this regard.

[hatzel]

Fourth, I'm definitely no supporter of the Abrahamic religions, but I fail to see how being in a desert climate makes much of a difference.

It makes a difference because he wanted an excuse to use scientific (heh) terms like 'primitive' and 'barbarian.' I mean even if they did happen to mean anything there's nothing 'primitive' about the Egyptian, Levantine and Babylonian civilisations. The clue being in the word 'civilisation,' but...yeah...

[Franz Fanonipants]

you can only understand God if you live in a desert/truestory

[Franz Fanonipants]

Correction: non-Christians are discriminated against in the US. Atheists aren't special in this regard.

also, far more Mexican/Latino Catholics and poor white and black protestants are systematically oppressed than atheists.

atheism is the white man's way of adopting an oppressed persona, similar to cries of "reverse racism!" or "reverse sexism!"

[NewLeft]

also, far more Mexican/Latino Catholics and poor white and black protestants are far more systematically oppressed than atheists.

atheism is the white man's way of adopting an oppressed persona, similar to cries of "reverse racism!" or "reverse sexism!"
White straight men are oppressed!! You don't know how it's like to not be favoured by affirmative action. :crying:

[hatzel]

you can only understand God if you live in a desert/truestory

I heard that when sand and DNA react the product is ignorance. Science facts up in the place.

On a related note I'm still convinced anybody who attacks a religion for its having something to do with desert-people is just being a shameless eurochauvinist. Given the obvious implications of the whole 'out of the desert cometh idiocy'-rhetoric. Y'all dig?

[Franz Fanonipants]

lousy primitive desert tribes w.their tribes and aridity

[CommunityBeliever]

Is it not the case that the distribution of religions demonstrates the coercive practices I was talking about? If you are born in a particular region in the global that leads you towards a particular religion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/World_religions_GER.PNG/800px-World_religions_GER.PNG


It is also the opposite of "I believe everyone should be free to decide for themselves what to believe on all issues".

I remember that once when I was a theist I was absolutely terrified that I might go to hell. The religious notion of hell makes it hard to think for yourself. I want everyone to be able to free to decide for themselves, especially in light of the scientific evidence, and I don't see how religion is helping that.


scientism.txt

I believe that mathematical logic and the scientific method are the most reliable means of managing knowledge.

http://www.dynamicflight.com/avcfibook/learning_process/1-4.gif


e: i mean realistically guys communitybeliever is the kind of numbnuts who thinks that a "globalized world" is a new thing. this is what happens when STEM is constantly hyped over anything else.

Terran civilisation is not yet type-1 but it is heading there.

http://www.tragnark.com/images/kardashev_scale.jpg

The increase in Internet usage over time also demonstrates that we are developing a type-1 communications system:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Internet_users_per_100_inhabitants_1997-2007_ITU.svg/500px-Internet_users_per_100_inhabitants_1997-2007_ITU.svg.png


Fourth, I'm definitely no supporter of the Abrahamic religions, but I fail to see how being in a desert climate makes much of a difference.

The desert based civilisation that produced the Abrahamic religions was relatively backwards when compared to the ancient Greek and Indian civilisations. There are many Greek scientists and mathematicians such as Euclid and Archimides who made considerable discoveries that are still of value today.

It has recently been discovered that archimedes palimpsest (http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org/) contains considerable scientific knowledge, but this knowledge was covered up and the text was converted into prayer book by religious people. It is only with modern imaging methods that we have been able to recover much of the knowledge in the palimpsest.


Fifth, religion comes to us from the past but it is not beholden to it. Religions change as the societies around them change, which is precisely why all the revolutions of modern society only brought new forms of religious organization and belief and expression, not the end of them.

One important characteristic of religions is that they are not adaptive. All religions are based upon following certain sacred beliefs, for example, Buddhists follow the noble eight fold path even though its outdated and Christians still believe in the holy bible even though it is based upon the outdated and primitive scientific knowledge of a relatively backwards group of people that lived several millennia ago.

[Guy Incognito]

Is it not the case that the distribution of religions demonstrates the coercive practices I was talking about? If you are born in a particular region in the global that leads you towards a particular religion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/World_religions_GER.PNG/800px-World_religions_GER.PNG



I remember that once when I was a theist I was absolutely terrified that I might go to hell. The religious notion of hell makes it hard to think for yourself. I want everyone to be able to free to decide for themselves, especially in light of the scientific evidence, and I don't see how religion is helping that.

First of all, the map is showing dispersion of religion by their respective cultures. Religion is part of culture. This map is pointing out the obvious, not pointing to coercion.

Also, though YOU felt you had no choice due to a fear of hell, many do not. Everyone is free to think for themselves outside of a theocracy. Whether or not the feel they can break with their respective culture (if it's that ingraned, it's not in the U.S.) and deal with the social stigma is what's truly at issue here. We can remove the social stigma through acceptance and guidance (I try to do this with friends, family, others through those biblical passages that can be used in a positive light, and don't require belief in divinity to do so). And above all, Socialism will make all of this slowly die out, as living conditions and general quality of life increase, religious faiths will decrease. It will take generations, but that's fine.

[hatzel]

Hah 'religious notion of hell' hilariously Christian generalisation. Stop being such a Christian, brahhh...

Also saying cultures are backwards still doesn't mean anything...

Also shut up about the fucking internet all the time...

Also your head appears to be made of penis...

[Franz Fanonipants]

sorry bro i am a catholic i don't go in for hellfire

absence of God is about as far as i get

p.s. communitybeliever you are basically a worshiper of the white west how does that feel

[Franz Fanonipants]

Is it not the case that the distribution of religions demonstrates the coercive practices I was talking about? If you are born in a particular region in the global that leads you towards a particular religion.

laffo yeah thats why im an american catholic and why there are shi'ia muslims in bahrain

[manic expression]

The desert based civilisation that produced the Abrahamic religions was relatively backwards when compared to the ancient Greek and Indian civilisations. There are many Greek scientists and mathematicians such as Euclid and Archimides who made considerable discoveries that are still of value today.
And what of the "desert based civilisation" of Sumeria? Of Egypt? Of Babylon?

I agree that Greek and Indian societies were more scientifically advanced, but if we're measuring religious merit based on science than Mormonism would be tops on our list simply by virtue of being produced by an industrialized society. Obviously that's not true so the rubric is false.


One important characteristic of religions is that they are not adaptive. All religions are based upon following certain sacred beliefs, for example, Buddhists follow the noble eight fold path even though its outdated and Christians still believe in the holy bible even though it is based upon the outdated and primitive scientific knowledge of a relatively backwards group of people that lived several millennia ago.
Which holy bible are you talking about? The one that King James composed or the innumerable bibles before that?

My point exactly.

[Dragonaut]

The notion that atheism is simply a way for "straight white men" to feel oppressed is bullshit. So what, there are no gay or non-white atheists? Because I know several. I'm an atheist, but I don't consider myself an anti-theist. I'm not an atheist because I want to "feel oppressed" or because I want to piss off religious people. I am for the simple fact that I don't believe in god. The amount of anti-atheist sentiment on this website is ridiculous.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The amount of anti-atheist sentiment on this website is ridiculous.

mostly voiced by atheists so...

anyways no one cares about your unique, qualified atheism.

[bricolage]

The notion that atheism is simply a way for "straight white men" to feel oppressed is bullshit.
it's not and there are obviously all kinds of atheists.
I think the idea that atheists are a persecuted minority is however 100% a way for straight white men to feel oppressed.
I don't believe in god I just don't feel the need to make a song and dance about it, or that it's somehow relevant to my politics, or that it somehow makes me superior or more revolutionary to religious people, or that I'm somehow 'oppressed' because of it.

[Ostrinski]

So I think we can all agree this was a dick move

[Dragonaut]

mostly voiced by atheists so...

anyways no one cares about your unique, qualified atheism.

If my atheism is somehow "qualified" then I think you have the idea that atheism is somehow a doctrine, which it isn't. It is simply the lack of belief in god. While you may think I'm just other person claiming to be an oppressed atheist, I'm not. I just don't think it's fair to lump all atheists in with the whiny liberal crowd.

[Franz Fanonipants]

If my atheism is somehow "qualified" then I think you have the idea that atheism is somehow a doctrine, which it isn't.

yes it is sorry. you are not free of the troublesome context of your ideology if you have made it an ideology.

[Dragonaut]

yes it is sorry. you are not free of the troublesome context of your ideology if you have made it an ideology.

Oh really atheism is my ideology? I'm sure you know my own beliefs better than I do, but I always thought I believed in class struggle over all racial/sexual/religious differences. I don't see how my personal disbelief in a deity has anything to do with with that. I noticed you said that you were catholic, does that mean you're some sort of christian fundamentalist? Surely I think not.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I noticed you said that you were catholic, does that mean you're some sort of christian fundamentalist?

you would be surprised.

the point is if it isn't an ideology why are you defending it?

brospierre etc. in this thread are all atheists who for some reason don't feel the need to defend their personal disbelief because it is personal disbelief.

[Guy Incognito]

Frankly I quite enjoy telling both Anti-theists and Evangelical theists to both get fucked.:thumbup:

[Franz Fanonipants]

sorry bro the gospels literally happened < - AN EXAMPLE OF TURNING BELIEF INTO IDEOLOGY

[Revolution starts with U]

sorry bro the gospels literally happened < - AN EXAMPLE OF TURNING BELIEF INTO IDEOLOGY

Now lets go proselytize! <~~~ An example of turning ideologies, that is to say ideas, into actions.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Now lets go proselytize! <~~~ An example of turning ideologies, that is to say ideas, into actions.

yeah because there's no material motivation to proselytize

[Revolution starts with U]

yeah because there's no material motivation to proselytize

The existence of other factors does not diminish the influence of ideas on decisions. Its not a black and white situation. Unless you're suggesting ideas are not material....

[Guy Incognito]

yeah because there's no material motivation to proselytize

Not always, some well meaning people do it because they see themselves as "saved" and want to save as many as they can, not for their own benefit, but out of kindness. Misguided? Annoying? Sure all of the above.

And then you have proselytizing from the preachers with their actual material motivation. The ones in their mega-churches, trying to draw in more poor believers, so they can buy yet another mansion.

[Franz Fanonipants]

And then you have proselytizing from the preachers with their actual material motivation. The ones in their mega-churches, trying to draw in more poor believers, so they can buy yet another mansion.

this is the only time proselytizing happens irl anything else is just a cover