ISO on Hedges, Graeber, strategy+tactics in Occupy

[andrewsplane]

This is very useful imo for thinking about how to build effective Occupy initiatives-- while avoiding the twin pitfalls of liberal moralism and its fraternal adversary, ultra-left adventurism.


http://socialistworker.org/2012/02/15/building-a-stronger-occupy

And a more detailed piece focusing on Oakland, with a critique of the Black Orchid Collective and others:

http://socialistworker.org/2012/02/16/confronting-the-debates

[Os Cangaceiros]

same old same old, nothing new here.

[TrotskistMarx]

Thanks a lot for that link, because I tried to share some marxist links of leftist parties and leftist websites such as http://www.workers.org http://www.marxists.org so that the members of Occupy Protest Movements would read introductions to socialism, the case for socialism and other introduction articles to socialism as the solution for USA. But they rejected all my leftist, socialist marxist links and articles. But you know how closed minded humans are, and how people hate new knowledge, new ideas, different ideas. Well, we'll just have to wait for the near future to see if the Occupy Protestors shift toward the left ideologically.

Thanks


.



This is very useful imo for thinking about how to build effective Occupy initiatives-- while avoiding the twin pitfalls of liberal moralism and its fraternal adversary, ultra-left adventurism.


http://socialistworker.org/2012/02/15/building-a-stronger-occupy

And a more detailed piece focusing on Oakland, with a critique of the Black Orchid Collective and others:

http://socialistworker.org/2012/02/16/confronting-the-debates

[blake 3:17]

I have a very deep respect for Hedges. He's a serious and moral thinker.

I would agree with Louis Proyect on this one:


2. Chris Hedges’s attack on the black bloc is an ominous threat against radical politics in the U.S. and every effort must be mounted to defend the vandalistas, either critically or uncritically. One of the prime examples is an article that appeared in the February 9th edition by Peter Gelderloos, the author of the aptly named “How Nonviolence Protects the State”. In the article, titled “The Surgeons of Occupy”, Gelderloos draws an unfortunate amalgam between the black bloc and the anarchist movement as a whole: “But beneath the black masks, anarchists have been an integral part of the debates, the organizing, the cooking and cleaning in dozens of cities.” So, in effect, when Hedges attacks vandalism, he is also attacking cooking and cleaning—I suppose. I say suppose because Gelderloos, like many black bloc aficionados, is skilled at demagogy. Or more accurately, uses demagogy rather ineffectively to avoid a serious debate.

I had no idea who Gelderloos was, but was intrigued to discover in the midst of a spittle-flecked attack on me by a Kasama Project commenter (I am a “Pseudo-Trotskyist renegade… practicing revisionist right-deviationism”) that “Gelderloos makes statements of support for the mass-murder of Spanish civilians by the right-wing Muslim group Al-Qaeda” in “How Nonviolence Protects the State”.

Wow, how about that!

As it turns out, there is a pdf version of the book. Wasting no time, I tracked down the passage in question and converted into regular text:

A good case study regarding the efficacy of nonviolent protest can be seen in Spain’s involvement with the US-led occupation. Spain, with 1,300 troops, was one of the larger junior partners in the “Coalition of the Willing.” More than one million Spaniards pro-tested the invasion, and 80 percent of the Spanish population was opposed to it, but their commitment to peace ended there—they did nothing to actually prevent Spanish military support for the invasion and occupation. Because they remained passive and did nothing to disempower the leadership, they remained as powerless as the citizens of any democracy. Not only was Spanish Prime Minister Aznar able and allowed to go to war, he was expected by all forecasts to win reelection—until the bombings. On March 11, 2004, just days before the voting booths opened, multiple bombs planted by an Al-Qaida-linked cell exploded in Madrid train stations, killing 191 people and injuring thousands more. Directly because of this, Aznar and his party lost in the polls, and the Socialists, the major party with an anti-war platform, were elected into power. The US-led coalition shrunk with the loss of 1,300 Spanish troops, and promptly shrunk again after the Dominican Republic and Honduras also pulled out their troops. Whereas millions of peaceful activists voting in the streets like good sheep have not weakened the brutal occupation in any measurable way, a few dozen terrorists willing to slaughter noncombatants were able to cause the withdrawal of more than a thousand occupation troops.

So nonviolence lacks “efficacy” but killing 191 Spaniards in train stations does not. A while back, I made a big deal about a book on Infoshop.org making the case that the black bloc is following in the steps of the Weathermen but this reaches level of insanity that simply takes my breath away.

Source: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/the-black-bloc-jihadism-and-counterpunch/

[andrewsplane]

Thanks Blake. The Gelderloos quote is truly obscene. That terrorist attack radically strengthened the repressive power of the Spanish state and the far right-- and began a still-ongoing campaign of scapegoating Muslims.

I think one of the problems with Hedges' article the SW article doesn't mention is that he ascribes the views of Zerzan to the BB, which I think is off the mark. You don't have to make up silly shit about the BB to criticize them-- their antics are silly enough.

Similarly, I doubt that Gelderloos would find much support among anybody except perhaps the most idiotic propagandists of the deed in the US today. But it is certainly worth thinking through where the logic of ultra-leftism leads when taken to the extreme.

A useful experience in revolutionary history to study is the failed March Action in Germany. The misplaced idea that small groups of radicals can bypass the hard work of building popular working class support and simply "shock" the masses into action by provoking the state has a sorry history in the radical movement.

[workersadvocate]

So, are the people in this thread basically embracing social pacifism, denying the right of the oppressed to strike back at their oppressors (without the fucking permission of middle class left), blaming the oppressed themselves for their own special oppression?

In the international scheme of things, who were those 191 "Spaniards" that these leftists are crying for? What were they doing to stop Spain from engaging in a war against the Iraqis? What were they doing to fight racism and chauvinism and religious bigotry in Spain? Did they give a fuck about the oppressed? Stop acting like they are automatically innocent because they don't wear a military uniform.

Sorry, but if you are part of the society of one of the Great Powers, especially while they are at war slaughtering another segment of the international proletariat, and you do nothing about it, fuck you, why shouldn't the oppressed target your ass for retaliation also?
Maybe there should be consequences for all these patriotard and nativist shitheads and middle class fucks who couldn't give a damn about "foreigners" or the oppressed or working people generally, and won't lift a finger to stop a war machine based in their own land supported by exactly these sorts of "Spaniards" "Americans" "British" etc. people. Waving the flags of imperialism? Then you deserve to get whatever retaliation the oppressed can muster. No, you don't get to hide behind the troops. War means everyone is involved, not just the militaries involved. America gets away with its warmongering around the globe because nobody brings the consequences of that war-making here to the hometurf, right in their streets and yards ...just like the war is "at home" for Iraqis and Afghanis. What, no internationalism now? It's okay if these white Great Powers go bombing brown people in the Middle East (well, maybe you don't like it, but you won't lift a fucking finger to FIGHT back as if you are also at war against "your own" bourgeoisie), but then you condemn the brown people from those lands for striking back? The Western middle class left is so full of national chauvinist social pacifist scum.

You living in the West want to whine about Al Qeada? Screw you. Pull the logs out of your own eyes before you go trying to pull the splinter out of theirs. Why do you suppose those radical Islamists get support instead of the left? Because it's the middle class left that always says "it's not yet time to fight", and has more their half their hearts set on some reformist compromise and on their own career advancement (especially in managing the people's "opposition" and selling their books and speaking engagements). The middle class left is made up of people belonging to this current society, not the next. They aren't really trying to get to communism (because then they wouldn't be middle class and they wouldn't be "Americans" or "British" or "Spanish" or any other kind of patriotard...they wouldn't be considered by society to be more "special" then anyone else in the world).

Don't trust anybody from the West who isn't fully alienated from Western society and who isn't proletarian. Don't trust anyone who belongs in anyway to the dominant society and fundamentally emulates its culture and values.
Don't trust anyone who tells you that communism has nothing to do with how you actually live, so-and-so big Marxist guy was a cappie, blah blah blah.
If you belong to this society, if you love it or have any allegiance to it in any way, if you identify yourself at all as being in a common community with the fuckers who are waging war against the world's working people and oppressed (e.g., you essentially identify yourself as "American"), you ain't gonna make it to the next...you'll just end up as reactionary roadkill.

You who worry about "alienating" people: the truth is that you ain't going anywhere away from your Mommy and Daddy Bourgeoisie anyway.
That's why no one gives a shit about you. You ain't for real. You are treated as a "phase" for a reason.

[Ostrinski]

So, are the people in this thread basically embracing social pacifism, denying the right of the oppressed to strike back at their oppressors (without the fucking permission of middle class left), blaming the oppressed themselves for their own special oppression?

In the international scheme of things, who were those 191 "Spaniards" that these leftists are crying for? What were they doing to stop Spain from engaging in a war against the Iraqis? What were they doing to fight racism and chauvinism and religious bigotry in Spain? Did they give a fuck about the oppressed? Stop acting like they are automatically innocent because they don't wear a military uniform.

Sorry, but if you are part of the society of one of the Great Powers, especially while they are at war slaughtering another segment of the international proletariat, and you do nothing about it, fuck you, why shouldn't the oppressed target your ass for retaliation also?
Maybe there should be consequences for all these patriotard and nativist shitheads and middle class fucks who couldn't give a damn about "foreigners" or the oppressed or working people generally, and won't lift a finger to stop a war machine based in their own land supported by exactly these sorts of "Spaniards" "Americans" "British" etc. people. Waving the flags of imperialism? Then you deserve to get whatever retaliation the oppressed can muster. No, you don't get to hide behind the troops. War means everyone is involved, not just the militaries involved. America gets away with its warmongering around the globe because nobody brings the consequences of that war-making here to the hometurf, right in their streets and yards ...just like the war is "at home" for Iraqis and Afghanis. What, no internationalism now? It's okay if these white Great Powers go bombing brown people in the Middle East (well, maybe you don't like it, but you won't lift a fucking finger to FIGHT back as if you are also at war against "your own" bourgeoisie), but then you condemn the brown people from those lands for striking back? The Western middle class left is so full of national chauvinist social pacifist scum.

You living in the West want to whine about Al Qeada? Screw you. Pull the logs out of your own eyes before you go trying to pull the splinter out of theirs. Why do you suppose those radical Islamists get support instead of the left? Because it's the middle class left that always says "it's not yet time to fight", and has more their half their hearts set on some reformist compromise and on their own career advancement (especially in managing the people's "opposition" and selling their books and speaking engagements). The middle class left is made up of people belonging to this current society, not the next. They aren't really trying to get to communism (because then they wouldn't be middle class and they wouldn't be "Americans" or "British" or "Spanish" or any other kind of patriotard...they wouldn't be considered by society to be more "special" then anyone else in the world).

Don't trust anybody from the West who isn't fully alienated from Western society and who isn't proletarian. Don't trust anyone who belongs in anyway to the dominant society and fundamentally emulates its culture and values.
Don't trust anyone who tells you that communism has nothing to do with how you actually live, so-and-so big Marxist guy was a cappie, blah blah blah.
If you belong to this society, if you love it or have any allegiance to it in any way, if you identify yourself at all as being in a common community with the fuckers who are waging war against the world's working people and oppressed (e.g., you essentially identify yourself as "American"), you ain't gonna make it to the next...you'll just end up as reactionary roadkill.

You who worry about "alienating" people: the truth is that you ain't going anywhere away from your Mommy and Daddy Bourgeoisie anyway.
That's why no one gives a shit about you. You ain't for real. You are treated as a "phase" for a reason.Welp, folks, I guess it's about that time:http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUgeR2agu7iDr5JUGchRpHR8czFS-1gbZUIT2g8OLxyV6tN7-NlQ