Secession?

[Hoppe]

Since I couldn't find a topic on this issue.......

As I don't want a discussion on capitalism versus communism I would like to know how people here look at the right of secession. For those of you who don't know what it is the right to have a piece of land and start your own country.

Wouldn't it be more obvious if all ism's would stop bashing at capitalism and work for this goal? It would be quite simple, everyone can start his own country according to his view and the rest can move to this country and live happily ever after. No bloody revolution is needed and no coercion is required, perhaps only on the politicians but who cares.

It is impossible to change a country by democratic means and you cannot assume that if you want to change for instance the US all inhabitants would simply say "cool, let's do this communism thingy". If they see your stalinist, leninist, social-democratic country flourishing they will certainly move. You must agree that it is a hell of a lot easier with people who are willing.

But perhaps any of you have different opinions?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

The United States will smash you before you get the chance to provide a good example. They have been doing it for nearly a century. Even liberal democracies, which the U.S. claims to support, are overturned if they so much as flirt with social-democratic reforms, or flirt with someone who flirts with social-democratic reforms. Until imperialism is broken, there is no safety for anyone interested in a society based on social justice or human rights.

EDIT: By the way, this is my 1000th post! WOOT!

[Hoppe]

I thought this was the philosophy section, I'm not that interested whether US government will let me do it.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I have never read anything that said philosophy is unrealistic. I am simply challenging your logic as to whether it is remotely possible in practice.

And why are you not interested in how the U.S. government will react to you? That is one of the prime indicators in the world today of what will succeed and what will fail.

[Hoppe]

if that is your point of view, why are you here talking about isms? I doubt GW will let you have your revolution.

[The Feral Underclass]

Wouldn't it be more obvious if all ism's would stop bashing at capitalism and work for this goal? It would be quite simple, everyone can start his own country according to his view and the rest can move to this country and live happily ever after.

You have to ask yourself what is capitalism? In my opinion it is an economic system which, in simplistic terms, advocates the ability for indeviduals to gain wealth and power. This then creates divisions between human beings. These indeviduals can not gain this wealth without using other human beings to create it. In a factory that makes shoes a man must hire 1000 people to work in his factory to make the shoes which he then sells and makes his money. In pretty much every case these people are paid minimum wage and use the cheapest materials in order to make these shoes. When they are sold they are sold for 100 times the amount they were made for, maximising the amount of profit this indevidual makes. This is called exploitation.

These devisions are called class devisions. On one side you have the ruling class, powerful men and women who control huge amounts of wealth and the working class, those men and women who must sell their labour in order to survive.

Look at any working class persons life. In order for them to pay their taxes, by food, pay the rent and the electricty etc etc, they must go and sell their time to someone else in order to do it. If they do not do this they will starve, they will have no home they will have nothing. This means that human beings have no control over their lifes. Everyday they must grind their fingers too the bone in order to live, and what a life. 9 to 5, five times a week so by saturday they are too tired to do anything. by the time they regain some energy it is time to go back to work. Work binds you to your wage. You can not do anything, you can not think anything, except work. This is not how human beings were designed to live!

This is one part of the effects capitalism has on society. Look at the enviroment, look at the state institutions that commit human rights violations all in the name of capitalism. Look at the wars. Look at Africa for christ sake. These are all consequences of a few indeviduals ability to maximise profit...

So if you stop bashing capitalism then the world will not change. Simply creating these new countries is not going to deal with any of these problems. They will continue to exist whether there is one country or a million countries.


No bloody revolution is needed and no coercion is required, perhaps only on the politicians but who cares.

If you agree with what I have said then you will understand this. The indeviduals that control society, ie the ruling class, have created institutions to keep this economic system in place. The police, the army, the tax office, parliments, laws, by-laws, constitutions are all in place to allow these people to remain in their seats of unscrupulous power.

When ever the working class want to change society. When ever they want to take control of their lifes and organize it in their own way the ruling class will use their armies, police, laws and constitutions to remain in power. They will come with guns and tanks and will try and smash us.

None of us want revolution, but we realise it is an inevitablity when we want to create fundamental change within society. If the ruling class simply hand over their power to the workers then fine. But look at any anti-captialist demonstration. Look at genoa. The police shot a demonstrator for simply demonstrating. These bastards will not role over quitely.

As for coercing people, this is not how you change society. Consciousness, is what I call it, will come through dedication of activists and some time. But society can not change until the working class realise what is happening to them and want to change it for themselves.

[Hoppe]

Tnx Anarchist Tension, but I know that point of view. ;)

Ever read capitalist who oppose to this institutions as well?

[The Feral Underclass]

Ever read capitalist who oppose to this institutions as well?

I don't understand? Can you explain?

[Hoppe]

Well, I am trying to find out how people think about this particular subject which is possibly the most fundamental of human rights and immediately I get a lecture on the evil called capitalism and the glory of communism, no offense of course.

I know all the ruling class theories so I was just wondering whether you ever read capitalist authors who condemn the status quo as well?

Ok let me rephrase my initial question:

As I haven't read about this subject from a communist perspective what is the general opinion on the right of secession?

[The Feral Underclass]

And the answer I am giving you and I think many others will give you is that if capitalism existed inside these countries it would be pretty pointless. Anything that wishes to maintain capitalism is counter-productive to the problems that exist. Ask yourself why you think we should have these seperate countries? And most often than not it will come down to one fact. One problem. Capitalism.

Then you could ask "well what about if capitalism didn't exist, what would you think then" and the answer would be if capitalism didnt exist there would be no need for people to go off and make their own countries.

(Within the context of capitalism it would be a bad thing. How would you say who was and who wasn't allowed to have certain bits of land? How would you stop someone having more land than anyone else? What happens if someone builds a big army and invades someone elses land? What if one person decide to close his or her borders after tricking people into his country and then forcing them to feed him or her ice cream every day of their lives?)