Rage in Afghanistan over US Quran burning

[Princess Luna]

The fourth straight day of protests over the burning of Qurans at a US-led base in Afghanistan have led to the death of 11 Afghans, including a protester who was shot dead in the capital Kabul.
Friday's deaths, the most since protests began on Tuesday, bring the four day total to 25 dead, including two US soldiers.
Earlier on Friday, seven protesters were killed in the western city of Herat, where protesters tried to storm the US consulate. Another protester died in the Pol-e-Khomri area of northern Baghlan province. Two deaths were also reported in the eastern province of Khost.
Hundreds of demonstrators marched toward the palace of Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, chanting "Death to America!", prompting security forces to fire into the air in an attempt to disperse them.
Demonstrations have been reported in several locations across the country, including Ghazni, Nangarhar, Paktia, Kunar, Bamiyan and Khost.
"Although peaceful demonstrations are the right of people, we strongly urge our countrymen to fully avoid turning them into violent ones," said Sediqqi earlier in the day.
Security has been beefed up around major mosques, and police in armed pick-up trucks are guarding streets and buildings around such locations.
Speaking to Al Jazeera's Sue Turton in Kabul, Afghan political analyst Haseeb Humayoon said the rising death count in the protests show "the room for error is reducing" for international forces in the country.
Humayoon also said "some very irresponsible actors in the political arena do actually use this for very minor, very small political ends of their own".
US President Barack Obama has sent a letter to Hamid Karzai, his Afghan counterpart, apologising for the unintentional burning of the Qurans (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/2012223141941107320.html) at the Bagram air base. Afghan labourers found charred copies of the Muslim holy book while collecting rubbish at the base.
Two US soldiers were also killed (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/2012223141941107320.html) on Thursday when an "individual wearing the Afghan army uniform" opened fire on them at a military base in Khogyani, in eastern Nangarhar province.
In a speech (http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/nangarghar-feb-24-2012-1649) to ISAFsoldiers at that same base, John Allen, commander of ISAF and US forces in Afghanistan told the soldiers they must move beyond the deaths to continue on their mission in the central-Asian nation.
"We're here for our friends. We're here for our partners. We're here for the Afghan people ... Now is how we show the Afghan people that as bad as that act was at Bagram, it was unintentional and Americans and ISAF soldiers do not stand for this" Allen said.
On Thursday, the Taliban had called on Afghans to "turn their guns on the foreign infidel invaders", but went on to say that negotiations with the US in Qatar would not be affected by the call to arms against foreign forces.
The Afghan government says that it wants those responsible for the burning to be tried publicly.
On Friday, US General John Allen, NATO's top military commander, called for restraint and patience from Afghans, saying that NATO and Afghan leaders were working together to insure the incident was not repeated.
Desecration of the Quran, considered to be the literal word of God by Muslims, is highly controversial in Muslim-majority nations.
Appeal for calm
An Afghan government delegation investigating the burning described the incident as "shameful", but issued an overnight appeal for calm from the protesters.
"In view of the particular security situation in the country, we call on all our Muslim citizens of Afghanistan to exercise self-restraint and extra vigilance in dealing with the issue," the delegation said in a statement.
In central Kabul, elite riot police in protective jackets and helmets secured intersections after complaints that security forces had not protected citizens adequately during the previous days protests.
The US embassy in Kabul has been on a heightened state of alert over the last two days, and movement restrictions for US citizens have been expanded to the relatively peaceful northern provinces, where large demonstrations took place on Thursday. At one such demonstration, protesters attempted to storm a Norwegian military base.
US citizens have been advised to "avoid any unnecessary movement" by the embassy.
Demonstrations in the last three days have drawn thousands of angry protesters to the streets, chanting "Death to America!" and smashing shops and windows.
A large protest has been planned for Friday in Jalalabad, where violent demonstrations have been taking place since the start of unrest over the burnings.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/20122249155462781.html
I understand being upset over what happened, but this is fucking ridiculous.

[The Young Pioneer]

Just another case of American ignorance and insensitivity to another culture being twisted into a perfect excuse to gun down civilians for being predictably religious and reactionary.

[Conscript]

Just another case of American ignorance and insensitivity to another culture being twisted into a perfect excuse to gun down civilians for being predictably religious and reactionary.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Os Cangaceiros]

On Thursday, the Taliban had called on Afghans to "turn their guns on the foreign infidel invaders", but went on to say that negotiations with the US in Qatar would not be affected by the call to arms against foreign forces.

Hahaha, yes, turn your hate and weapons on the filthy infidels! Oh, hey USA, I was jk about that.

[Comrade Samuel]

What the hell are you talking about?

What do you think? Both sides are wrong here, the u.s for being insensitive, self-righteous, imperialist scum and the protesters for being ultra-religious reactionary fools.

[RedHal]

Don't think it's a case of insensitivity or ignorance, probably some crazy Christian extremist who thinks they are on a crusade against Islam.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Perhaps the issue of the Koran is just the final straw, and that the Afghani people are fed up with the occupation of their country by NATO military forces.

[Zostrianos]

The Quran burning was unacceptable, but much more so was the response. It's like the Muhammad cartoon thing a few years back: they respond to insults with riots and murder (often of people who had nothing to do with the provocation). What rational, mentally sane person does that?

[Grenzer]

Don't think it's a case of insensitivity or ignorance, probably some crazy Christian extremist who thinks they are on a crusade against Islam.

Nice chauvinism, bro.

As much as I dislike Christianity and the US Army, this is just an ignorant thing to say. You're little better than the third positionists who blame things on "Those greedy Jews" if you're going to make unsubstantiated assumptions like this.

[Caj]

Perhaps the issue of the Koran is just the final straw, and that the Afghani people are fed up with the occupation of their country by NATO military forces.

This is what I was thinking. I find it a little hard to believe that these riots are the result of just Qur'an burnings. Of course, on second thought, it's entirely possible. Similar reactions have occurred in response to much more mild things -- cartoon drawings of Muhammad, for example.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Happy to see the Afghan people fight against NATO imperialism; sad to see that they are fighting for such a reactionary reason. It's hard to pick which side you are on; it's either the imperialists or the reactionaries. :( Both are horrible sides to be on.

[Caj]

Happy to see the Afghan people fight against NATO imperialism; sad to see that they are fighting for such a reactionary reason. It's hard to pick which side you are on; it's either the imperialists or the reactionaries. :( Both are horrible sides to be on.

We should oppose both, if you ask me.

[sithsaber]

What happened here is simple

Taliban prisoners were using Koran passages as code for communication. The US finds out and confiscates the Korans. Somebody tells somebody else to dump the Korans somewhere. That guy is lazy and leaves the Korans with a subordinate. The subordinate thinks "fuck it" and just dumps em in a bondfire. An hour and a half later a afghan wanderer walks buy. He looks down and HOLY SHIT THE INFIDELS ARE BURNING THE HOLY KORAN! (to you this may not seem like much but imagine if a Chinese occupation force was burning bibles in the bible belt) He alerts his buddies, they put it on Afghanistan's equivalent of Facebook and YouTube and voilà, the US and Karzai lose legitimacy. Not that it matters though, all the US cares about are footholds. If Aghanistan goes the way of Somalia, the US will not be hurt that bad. The Northern alliance is strengthened enough to allow the US to hunker down in certain areas without significant opposition. When Iran is attacked or when the US finally decides to seize Paki nukes, they will be able to set down somewhere in Afghanistan

[Caj]

Taliban prisoners were using Koran passages as code for communication.

:rolleyes: Yeah, I really doubt it.


That guy is lazy and leaves the Korans with a subordinate. The subordinate thinks "fuck it" and just dumps em in a bondfire.

Why do you assume that the burning was the result of some honest mistake? It seems equally, if not more, likely that the Qur'ans were burned simply as a way of oppressing the prisoners.


the US and Karzai lose legitimacy.

You mean they haven't already?

[Zostrianos]

the US and Karzai lose legitimacy.

Since the Taliban fell, there hasn't been any significant improvement on the condition of women; in fact, the Karzai government still uses Islamic Sharia laws to run the country (like if a woman gets raped it's her fault so she either marries the rapist or goes to jail). So Karzai never had legitimacy, and the whole "liberation" of Afghanistan by the US turned out to be a crock of shit


Paki nukes

Seriously? You do know that's a racist slur right? :thumbdown:

[Philosopher Jay]

As atheist communists, we oppose the occupation of Afghanistan by imperialist troops. At the same time, we cannot support the imbecility of people killing over a book fulled with nonsense.

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility, at the same time every communist party member should demonstrate against the military occupation of Afghanistan and in support of a secular socialist government in Afghanistan.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The outrage over the Koran burnings masks other material causes of outrage. Afghan society has been devastated by the destruction of the left and decades of war. The Karzai puppet government is weak, visciously corrupt and merely represents the interests of one set of warlords over another.Kabul is the center of a multi-billion dollar lavish NGO industry,which goes to enrich US created warlords and whose very existence is a mockery to the population. People see Islam as the glue holding the tattered remnants of a devastated besieged society together.There is a level of deep unease and perhaps "paranoia" about Western insults to their culture. People are on edge.

It may be the Korans had messages from Taliban prisoners.Be that as it may they were about to be incinerated along with routine trash disposal.Of course this shows a level of monumental cultural insensitivity and misunderstanding of the situation.As someone said this would be similar to PRC occupation troops incinerating bibles in South Carolina.

The protests and rioting are an embarrassment to the US. Its obvious that Obama is looking for the best time to make a deal with the Taliban. This sets back the US time table for that.

Its interesting that the US military leadership had to reassure US troops after the protests, "the Afghans are our allies, we are here to help them". The population of Afghanistan obviously hates the US/NATO occupation. How this is expressed is secondary.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Really what is amazing in all this is that it goes to show that an Imperialist power is its own worst enemy. As much as anything else, it is completely impractical for the US to think it can monitor the behavior of all its soldiers to ensure that they do not do something really stupid. The US army has actually made an effort to put anthropological knowledge among the men, knowing it helps strategic ends, however it clearly didn't help in the long run. This was probably just a dumb accident, but the reality is that even the slightest thing can undermine credibility, especially when you have overstayed your welcome as long as NATO has.


As atheist communists, we oppose the occupation of Afghanistan by imperialist troops. At the same time, we cannot support the imbecility of people killing over a book fulled with nonsense.

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility, at the same time every communist party member should demonstrate against the military occupation of Afghanistan and in support of a secular socialist government in Afghanistan.

I don't think you understand what religion is to religious people. That is common among Atheists, but we should be more sympathetic. Marx's whole line of thought about the opiate of the masses, while it seems like a cynical condemnation of religion, teaches a lot about where the impulse to believe comes from from a more open minded perspective. This is the only source of comfort and beauty in a cold, harsh world, and you are going to burn the poetry and art at its basis. Naturally this will cause a violent backlash. It is that line of thinking which helped undermine the USSR's war effort in Afghanistan, by driving Afghans into the hands of the Mullahs.

[Os Cangaceiros]

(Reuters) - Two American officers were shot dead at close range in Afghanistan's Interior Ministry on Saturday, a U.S. official said, as rage gripped the country for a fifth day over the burning of the Muslim holy book at a NATO base.

NATO recalled all staff working at ministries in the Afghan capital Kabul following the attack, with its top commander in Afghanistan (http://www.reuters.com/places/afghanistan) calling the killer a coward.

"For obvious force protection reasons, I have also taken immediate measures to recall all other ISAF personnel working in ministries in and around Kabul," said General John Allen, adding that the attacker's actions "will not go unanswered."

Wow, I can't help but imagine that whoever was responsible for the initial Koran burning is in some serious hot water right now.

[Red Commissar]

Perhaps the issue of the Koran is just the final straw, and that the Afghani people are fed up with the occupation of their country by NATO military forces.

I think this is important to point out, as was Lenina's post. OP's comment about it being 'fucking ridiculous' feeds into the simplistic way of looking at what's going on in Afghanistan right now. It's easy to say it's just because Afghani's are backwards and deeply religious, getting riled up against Americans by demagogues, as the media has been encouraging so far, rather than trying to figure out this works into the broader problems in Afghanistan. The Afghani people do not have good relationship (and that's putting it lightly) with the occupation forces- why should they? This force has been part of a cycle of destruction in the region, and for many Afghani's it's a group that has long overstayed their welcome.

Simply put there was already a lot of tensions brewing- the Koran burning was just the necessary flare up, and people put their rage out in the only way they have left. Their government is unresponsive to them and they are spiraling into an economic dead end. And yes, this is a location where religious and social customs still play a major role.

I remember listening on the radio a comment from a Afghani man, maybe in his 40s or 50s, commenting that this wasn't just over the burning of the Koran, but the 'disrespect towards our customs' and the 'deaths of our sons', which underscores the experience of the occupation by many of the normal people in Afghanistan. Of course though the jingoists and other pro-war people will only see this as the usual 'if muslims want to be respected, why do they keep doing this', since the blame only goes one way apparently.

[Ocean Seal]

We should oppose both, if you ask me.
If you mean oppose Al-Qaeda then sure, but if you mean oppose the Afghan people who want NATO out of their homes I want no part in your ultra-leftism. Oppose the Afghan people who are riled up that not only are the Americans burning their holy book, but they are also burning their homes? Oppose them indeed in fighting for the lives of their children because they are "reactionary fundamentalists".

No. I support the Afghan people in their struggle against US militarism, I support the Afghan people who struggle day to day knowing that they could be the victims of a bomber raid, or just have the US army come into a village and start shooting.

I give thanks that I am not in their position, and I give thanks to have the clarity to know that I shouldn't mock them for believing in what they believe though I disagree with it. The Quaran is the last thing many of these people have. To burn the Quaran is to insult the last ounce of humanity, the last beating heart that many Afghan people see.

[TrotskistMarx]

Hello, I hate generalizing because marxists, sociologists, psychologists, political scientists and general scientists are not supposed to generalize about reality. But I just wanna say that the USA is a country of assholes, of very evil people. The US troops burning of the Koran is as normal as apple pie for americans who are drugged and stoned and spelled by a blind love, by an ultra-love toward every thing that their Uncle Sam stands for (Wars, "The American Way of Life" (AWOL), the junk food of the USA, burgers, violence etc). You can even take a look at this site http://www.brianwillson.com a great site a former US Vietnam War Veteran about how evil the USA founding fathers were, and how they killed 20 million native american indians (The American Holocaust)

I say this because I was watching today in the Russia Today News Network (RT http://www.rt.com) a journalist from The Russia Today News Network asking in the streets of New York what do they think about Europe and International Monetary Fund bailing out Greece. And some people said that because they state of Iowa and California are bigger, better and have bigger economies, they don't really care if the whole population and country of Greece dies and collapses.

There is a sort of institutionalized collective evil in America. The majority of Americans are very, behave like barbarian pigs high in steroids. There are even people in USA who buy big cars, big trucks, big tankers to murder people by causing accidents in the interstate highways.

The general population of the USA is very unethical and immoral, the USA is a crazy perspectivist, relativist society where nothing is good and nothing is evil, where nothing is legal and nothing is illegal. (Maybe this is why the US ruling class loves to label "dictators" and "dictatorships" any nation with a statist, state-capitalist system and central-planned economic model with laws and regulations.

The USA needs an *about face* and a 100% radical change from the very evil behaviour, very anti-human behaviour of most americans and the very evil behaviour of the US government, and the ruling class that supports and funds the evil US government.

No wonder Newt Gingritch and Rick Santorium have more populairity than The Socialist Party of USA, The Green Party, and Ron Paul, because in America being evil sells a lot more than goodness, altruism, compassion and honesty

Something has to give !!!


.



http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/20122249155462781.html
I understand being upset over what happened, but this is fucking ridiculous.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I don't think the US population is "evil" any more than the population of Afghanistan or Iran or the people of any of America's "enemies" are.There does seem to be a growing defensive mean-spiritidness building up among some layers of the US population in reaction to the current crisis.The Republicans cheering to hear that someone would die because they couldn't afford medical treatment, booing a gay soldier, etc.

Rick Santorum, "Sick Rantorum" has more than a hint of fascism. His cheering fans, literally baying for the blood of anyone who is seen as "different", is scary.

This element is given a huge amount of publicity by the media.They have a small constituency, the support for these people is usually in the single digits. They don't have a constituency other than that whipped by sensationalisrt media.

The US corporate media gives a simplistic, distorted one diminesional view of the world. It gives the impression that the US is a beacon of light in a world of violent, lazy freeloaders.This of coiurse fits in with the needs of the tiny number of people at the top.

[TrotskistMarx]

Lenina: hi thanks a lot for your very good answer. I wanna add another 2 cents to this debate. I just want to say that I think that many people in America who claim that they don't want a big government over their lives, that they reject any law and regulation and government interfering in their lives, in one way or the other are really suggesting, that they would like to have 100% freedom to live in a relativist world without morality, without moral standard, without ethics and without laws.

That urge for 100% freedom is a dangerous philosophy that I think it's linked to libertarianism of Ayn Rand. I think that there is too much perspectivism and relativism philosophy in America, it's a philosophy that claims that humans have to total freedom to steal, to kill, to rape, to cheat and to lie, and any of those actions are not immral as long as it benefits you.

And I think that's why many Republican Party voters voted for The Republican Party in 2004, when they re-elected Bush into power, because they claimed that the invasion against Afhganistan and Iraq wasn't evil even though it killed 1 million people. Because it benefited USA, so according those feelings of ultra-nationalism sprinkled with relativism, the US Imperialist Armed Forces can bomb any country kill a lot of people, and the millions US citizens won't oppose terrible horrible crimes like that, because it benefits "America The Beautiful"

So, I think that there are many weird, very immoral, very unethetical, very dangerous philosophies and ideologies in the USA like relativism, libertarianism, capitalism, fascism which leads to the most horrible crimes against human life. And that's why we need a change in America toward a pro-life ideology which is marxism, socialism

Thanks


PS: I think that the NRA (National Riffle Association is relativist and libertarian)

.





I don't think the US population is "evil" any more than the population of Afghanistan or Iran or the people of any of America's "enemies" are.There does seem to be a growing defensive mean-spiritidness building up among some layers of the US population in reaction to the current crisis.The Republicans cheering to hear that someone would die because they couldn't afford medical treatment, booing a gay soldier, etc.

Rick Santorum, "Sick Rantorum" has more than a hint of fascism. His cheering fans, literally baying for the blood of anyone who is seen as "different", is scary.

This element is given a huge amount of publicity by the media.They have a small constituency, the support for these people is usually in the single digits. They don't have a constituency other than that whipped by sensationalisrt media.

The US corporate media gives a simplistic, distorted one diminesional view of the world. It gives the impression that the US is a beacon of light in a world of violent, lazy freeloaders.This of coiurse fits in with the needs of the tiny number of people at the top.

[gorillafuck]

well, this was an incredibly bad idea on the part of that base.

[Caj]

If you mean oppose Al-Qaeda then sure, but if you mean oppose the Afghan people who want NATO out of their homes I want no part in your ultra-leftism. Oppose the Afghan people who are riled up that not only are the Americans burning their holy book, but they are also burning their homes? Oppose them indeed in fighting for the lives of their children because they are "reactionary fundamentalists".

No. I support the Afghan people in their struggle against US militarism, I support the Afghan people who struggle day to day knowing that they could be the victims of a bomber raid, or just have the US army come into a village and start shooting.

I give thanks that I am not in their position, and I give thanks to have the clarity to know that I shouldn't mock them for believing in what they believe though I disagree with it. The Quaran is the last thing many of these people have. To burn the Quaran is to insult the last ounce of humanity, the last beating heart that many Afghan people see.

When the fuck did I say I don't support the Afghan people?!

What I oppose is reactionary Islamist fundamentalism, like any real socialist would. Jesus, M-Ls can justify anything in the name of "anti-imperialism."

[GoddessCleoLover]

Al-Qa'ida and the Taleban are reactionary fundamentalists who seek to enslave women and those who do share their theocratic outlook. While I oppose US imperialism and support the just struggle of the Afghani people for independence and socialism, I cannot support such reactionary groups as the Taleban, let alone the al-Qa'ida terrorists who have murdered thousands of innocent Muslims and Christians around the world.

[Caj]

I just wanna say that the USA is a country of assholes, of very evil people.

Am I an evil asshole?


The US troops burning of the Koran is as normal as apple pie for americans who are drugged and stoned and spelled by a blind love, by an ultra-love toward every thing that their Uncle Sam stands for (Wars, "The American Way of Life" (AWOL), the junk food of the USA, burgers, violence etc). You can even take a look at this site http://www.brianwillson.com a great site a former US Vietnam War Veteran about how evil the USA founding fathers were, and how they killed 20 million native american indians (The American Holocaust)

I say this because I was watching today in the Russia Today News Network (RT http://www.rt.com) a journalist from The Russia Today News Network asking in the streets of New York what do they think about Europe and International Monetary Fund bailing out Greece. And some people said that because they state of Iowa and California are bigger, better and have bigger economies, they don't really care if the whole population and country of Greece dies and collapses.

There is a sort of institutionalized collective evil in America. The majority of Americans are very, behave like barbarian pigs high in steroids. There are even people in USA who buy big cars, big trucks, big tankers to murder people by causing accidents in the interstate highways.

The general population of the USA is very unethical and immoral, the USA is a crazy perspectivist, relativist society where nothing is good and nothing is evil, where nothing is legal and nothing is illegal. (Maybe this is why the US ruling class loves to label "dictators" and "dictatorships" any nation with a statist, state-capitalist system and central-planned economic model with laws and regulations.

The USA needs an *about face* and a 100% radical change from the very evil behaviour, very anti-human behaviour of most americans and the very evil behaviour of the US government, and the ruling class that supports and funds the evil US government.

No wonder Newt Gingritch and Rick Santorium have more populairity than The Socialist Party of USA, The Green Party, and Ron Paul, because in America being evil sells a lot more than goodness, altruism, compassion and honesty

Something has to give !!!


Lenina: hi thanks a lot for your very good answer. I wanna add another 2 cents to this debate. I just want to say that I think that many people in America who claim that they don't want a big government over their lives, that they reject any law and regulation and government interfering in their lives, in one way or the other are really suggesting, that they would like to have 100% freedom to live in a relativist world without morality, without moral standard, without ethics and without laws.

That urge for 100% freedom is a dangerous philosophy that I think it's linked to libertarianism of Ayn Rand. I think that there is too much perspectivism and relativism philosophy in America, it's a philosophy that claims that humans have to total freedom to steal, to kill, to rape, to cheat and to lie, and any of those actions are not immral as long as it benefits you.

And I think that's why many Republican Party voters voted for The Republican Party in 2004, when they re-elected Bush into power, because they claimed that the invasion against Afhganistan and Iraq wasn't evil even though it killed 1 million people. Because it benefited USA, so according those feelings of ultra-nationalism sprinkled with relativism, the US Imperialist Armed Forces can bomb any country kill a lot of people, and the millions US citizens won't oppose terrible horrible crimes like that, because it benefits "America The Beautiful"

So, I think that there are many weird, very immoral, very unethetical, very dangerous philosophies and ideologies in the USA like relativism, libertarianism, capitalism, fascism which leads to the most horrible crimes against human life. And that's why we need a change in America toward a pro-life ideology which is marxism, socialism

Thanks


PS: I think that the NRA (National Riffle Association is relativist and libertarian).

Got moralism? :lol:

[Ostrinski]

As atheist communists, we oppose the occupation of Afghanistan by imperialist troops. At the same time, we cannot support the imbecility of people killing over a book fulled with nonsense.

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility, at the same time every communist party member should demonstrate against the military occupation of Afghanistan and in support of a secular socialist government in Afghanistan.If atheism is just as important to you as communism, then you have many things to re-evaluate.

[Caj]

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility.

And how is that going to lead to a decline in religious imbecility?

[Os Cangaceiros]

hey doods, I got a great idea to build a communist movement, let's alienate over three billion people by pissing all over their religious beliefs! :cool:

[Hiero]

What I oppose is reactionary Islamist fundamentalism, like any real socialist would. Jesus, M-Ls can justify anything in the name of "anti-imperialism." These protests were most likely normal Afghan people, not the Taliban. As far as I see, the Afghani people have ever right to be angry about what the Americans are doing to their country. They are fed up by the occupation and the insensitivity of the American occupiers. As communist we support working people's culture whether they are muslim or not.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2368600#post2368600)
As atheist communists, we oppose the occupation of Afghanistan by imperialist troops. At the same time, we cannot support the imbecility of people killing over a book fulled with nonsense.

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility, at the same time every communist party member should demonstrate against the military occupation of Afghanistan and in support of a secular socialist government in Afghanistan.

You're not a communist then, you're just a jerk. We support working people whoever they are. You obviously have never had any real engagement with a braod group of working people or people from Middle Asia. Communist get killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan for lesser shit, burning a Koran would get a whole party on death row or lynched. Do some research before speaking next time and save your idealistic militancy for fiction books.

[Caj]

These protests were most likely normal Afghan people, not the Taliban. As far as I see, the Afghani people have ever right to be angry about what the Americans are doing to their country. They are fed up by the occupation and the insensitivity of the American occupiers. As communist we support working people's culture whether they are muslim or not.

Yes, but that is much different than murdering innocent people over holy books.

[Philosopher Jay]

Communists should be the leaders of the working class towards economic and social liberation from false, outdated and vicious little ideologies that enslave people. The unification of the working class cannot be achieved without the destruction of all religious hierarchies especially the monotheistic Penis-worshiping ones.



And how is that going to lead to a decline in religious imbecility?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Communists should be the leaders of the working class towards economic and social liberation from false, outdated and vicious little ideologies that enslave people. The unification of the working class cannot be achieved without the destruction of all religious hierarchies especially the monotheistic Penis-worshiping ones.

It doesn't work that way. A frontal assault on people's religious beliefs and traditions can only backfire.There's a story that Engels, in his old age, saw a group of anarchists heckling a Church of England procession in London. His reaction was to try to dissuade them, he said heckling the religious is not a productive strategy. We must attack the material conditions that give rise to religion, not religion itself.

Socialists should not work with Islamist groups or Christian "Dominionist" groups either for that matter.We can't spurn people with religious beliefs though.

A great Glenn Greenwald article

http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/

[Os Cangaceiros]

seven US soldiers wounded in grenade attack as violence continues (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/seven_calls_troops_wounded_for_grenade_BWyVVlwx7yr xxPdIBMncDL)

[eric922]

Seriously this idea of banning eradicating religion is just stupid. The vast majority of the world is religious and if we ever want to gain the support of the working class we need to make it clear that they don't have to worry about us burning their sacred texts and places of worship. Honestly, I really don't care if if someone believes in religion, if they oppose capitalism, that's good enough for me. If it turns out they were right about the whole God thing, well maybe they'll put in a good word for me, and if I'm right, no harm done.

[Caj]

Communists should be the leaders of the working class towards economic and social liberation from false, outdated and vicious little ideologies that enslave people. The unification of the working class cannot be achieved without the destruction of all religious hierarchies especially the monotheistic Penis-worshiping ones.

Yep, and I'm sure burning holy books will bring the religious over to our side. :rolleyes:

[TrotskistMarx]

Dear friends, I think what we need is love and compassion, and tolerance toward the local religion of people. Forcing Afhganistans to hate the Qoran is dictatorship, is anti-democratic. What we need is a federation of workers-states in the whole middle east, and as part of the socialist system in the Middel East a reformation of the Qoran and Jewish religion to be reformed into liberation-theology and qoran-socialism and jewish-socialism to be compatible with socialism.

And that can be done, because there is lots of compatibility between marxism, christianity, islamic, jewish, budhism and other religions. I think that's a little bit better than burning the Qoran, The Talmud (The Bible of the jews) and the christian bible. Thanks

[TrotskistMarx]

By the way what we need is the burning of all the weapons of the US troops and of all the Armed Forces of the world. We also burning of other things like cakes, pizzas, the burning of pancakes. Because to Dr. Eades the writter of Protein Power http://www.proteinpower.com , the american diet high in carbohydrates has killed more people than both world wars. He claimed that the US corporate medical industrial system mass murder people by promoting a high-carbohydrate diet, that way people get diabetes, heart diseases, cancer. And the more sick people are, the more profits for the capitalist medical system. Dr. Mercola is another doctor in favor of ketogenic lower-carb diets. Thanks

.

[workersadvocate]

Don't think it's a case of insensitivity or ignorance, probably some crazy Christian extremist who thinks they are on a crusade against Islam.

Right before I was shipped off to Iraq, they had some holy earrior chaplain get in front if the troops, read Romans 13 from the Christian Bible, and imply that underneath it all the war was against Islam and "hajjies" (an offensive epithet against all Iraqis). Yes, they played on the religious and national chauvinist bigotry of US soldiers. It comes as no surprise to hear of the atrocities and outrages perpetrated as a result. You send this modern equivelant of the Waffen SS out there, this shit will happen.

[Threetune]

It’s great to see the imperialists taking another beating in Afghanistan and it’s a humiliating shame that the communists internationally have left the leadership of this fight back to others.
‘Condemnation’ of this fight back is a sick cover up for leadership failure by the ‘lefts’. The solution is not ‘condemnation’ but better revolutionary example. We wish.

[ProletariatPraetorian]

This was nothing but another "accident", not unlike the SS flag incident.

[Hiero]

Yes, but that is much different than murdering innocent people over holy books.

It is anger at being humiliated.

[Caj]

It is anger at being humiliated.

I do not doubt that many of these protests stem largely from the humilation that accompanies imperialist invasion; nonetheless, murdering innocent people over the burning of Qur'ans is incredibly reactionary, and no degree of commitment to "anti-imperialism" should make us regard this as anything other than reactionary. We should support the Afghan people by opposing both US imperialism and reactionary Islamism.

[Ostrinski]

Consideration for the feelings of religious groups has never been, and never should be part of our program. You can recognize it as a dick move without getting all political about it.

[eric922]

I do not doubt that many of these protests stem largely from the humilation that accompanies imperialist invasion; nonetheless, murdering innocent people over the burning of Qur'ans is incredibly reactionary, and no degree of commitment to "anti-imperialism" should make us regard this as anything other than reactionary. We should support the Afghan people by opposing both US imperialism and reactionary Islamism.
Indeed. Imperialism and Islamic reaction are both equally bad for the people of Afghanistan. Though, of course, we should always be careful to distinguish between Islamic reactionaries and your average Muslim or Mullah, because opposing religion itself will only alienate the working class.

[Robocommie]

I want to point out though, that it's really kindof problematic to talk about what's good or bad for Afghanistan. That choice really does lie with the people of Afghanistan, not foreign intellectuals and idealogues. It is all very well and good to stand on an internet soapbox, and say, "I oppose this" and "I condemn that" but in fact, they're meaningless words and empty convictions. The ones who are facing the day to day realities and horrors of what this war is, are over there.

[Robocommie]

Communists should be the leaders of the working class towards economic and social liberation from false, outdated and vicious little ideologies that enslave people. The unification of the working class cannot be achieved without the destruction of all religious hierarchies especially the monotheistic Penis-worshiping ones.

You're weird.

[Blackburn]

As atheist communists, we oppose the occupation of Afghanistan by imperialist troops. At the same time, we cannot support the imbecility of people killing over a book fulled with nonsense.

Every communist party member should symbolically burn a Koran and a Bible to show distain for religious imbecility, at the same time every communist party member should demonstrate against the military occupation of Afghanistan and in support of a secular socialist government in Afghanistan.

Burning a copy of the US Constitution might have a more reactionary affect. After all Right Wing Christians in America stopped following Bible teachings a long time ago.

[Ostrinski]

Communists should be the leaders of the working class towards economic and social liberation from false, outdated and vicious little ideologies that enslave people. The unification of the working class cannot be achieved without the destruction of all religious hierarchies especially the monotheistic Penis-worshiping ones.I'm dying right now, was so not expecting this :laugh: can't stop laughing.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

While I'm no fan of patriarchal sky god religions, as far as literal "penis worshiping" religions, the only one I can think of are the Shivaite cults in India who use lingams in their rituals.

[Vyacheslav Brolotov]

Update:

Bill O'Reilly just said that the Afghan people do not appreciate all the good things the Americans did for them. WTF?

Well, let's think about it for a little bit. One can argue (liberals) that we were helping the Afghans in the early stages of the war to defeat the Taliban (and to destroy Al Qaeda), but that we are now just being imperialist. But if we go back to the root of the problem, who really helped form both the Taliban and Al Qaeda? The U.S., with covert funding of these reactionary groups during the Soviet Occupation of Democratic Afghanistan, did! So, it is really the United States' fault.

And, even when Afghanistan was Taliban-ruled, the U.S sent $245 million in aid to the nation between the years of 2000 and 2001!

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

While I'm no fan of patriarchal sky god religions, as far as literal "penis worshiping" religions, the only one I can think of are the Shivaite cults in India who use lingams in their rituals.

To be fair to Shaivism, it's more complicated than that. The superficial aspects of the symbolism is obviously based on the ancient phallic cults of India, but it is a symbol representing a much deeper meaning. You can actually offend Shaivites if you just call it a penis. Even if its form is sexual, it acts as a stand in for unity, consciousness, creation and a number of other philosophical ideas. Also the Yoni (the "womb" of the symbol) is also seen as a focus of worship, and Shiva's wife is the focal point of most goddess worship, so it's not like the symbolism is so patriarchal either.

It is fascinating that sexual organs being used as symbolism for divine creative energy or some other theological proof is thought of as so odd. It must be some holdover of Abrahamic puritanist thinking. Such practices were very common, in fact many Mayan cities also have phalluses. This doesn't mean that they literally worshiped the penis so much as they saw it as a symbol of how the divine fertilized the material world to bring about the world of animals, men, plants, thinking beings, etc. There's actually something I find very appropriate about the symbology (as far as I'm concerned, not at all patriarchal, especially compared to the worship of Rama, a masculine hero god who bows to the masses who assume his wife slept with the demon king to make her walk through fire to prove her innocence)

[eric922]

Update:

Bill O'Reilly just said that the Afghan people do not appreciate all the good things the Americans did for them. WTF?

Well, let's think about it for a little bit. One can argue (liberals) that we were helping the Afghans in the early stages of the war to defeat the Taliban (and to destroy Al Qaeda), but that we are now just being imperialist. But if we go back to the root of the problem, who really helped form both the Taliban and Al Qaeda? The U.S., with covert funding of these reactionary groups during the Soviet Occupation of Democratic Afghanistan, did! So, it is really the United States' fault.

And, even when Afghanistan was Taliban-ruled, the U.S sent $245 million in aid to the nation between the years of 2000 and 2001!
The U.S. has a really bad habit of creating its own enemies. For instance they intervened during the 1953 Iranian Revolution and restored the Shaw to power which eventually led to the Islamic Revolution. They really don't seem all that great at the whole empire thing.

[Hiero]

I do not doubt that many of these protests stem largely from the humilation that accompanies imperialist invasion; nonetheless, murdering innocent people over the burning of Qur'ans is incredibly reactionary, and no degree of commitment to "anti-imperialism" should make us regard this as anything other than reactionary. We should support the Afghan people by opposing both US imperialism and reactionary Islamism.

It is not about anti-imperialism it is about empathy and understanding. People do not operate in clear defined ideological boundaries of Islamism, imperialism, anti-imperialist etc. People rather operate in complex and highly emotive fields that link multiple ideological categories that are embodied in practice which gives people their sense of identity. Islam is lived in daily life and to burn the Quran invokes direct emotional responses that is tied within the daily humiliation of living under occupation. The reaction to the burning of the Quran is the catharsis of frustrations of occupied peoples. One can not merely support or oppose in such binary sense as that is just an alienated ideological posturing that has no relation to people's daily live. Basically you ignore common people's lives and sweep up people into traditional binaries in the sense of Orientalism.

[arilando]

hey doods, I got a great idea to build a communist movement, let's alienate over three billion people by pissing all over their religious beliefs! :cool:
There arent 3 billion muslims.

[arilando]

These protests were most likely normal Afghan people, not the Taliban. As far as I see, the Afghani people have ever right to be angry about what the Americans are doing to their country. They are fed up by the occupation and the insensitivity of the American occupiers. As communist we support working people's culture whether they are muslim or not.
Not if that culture includes killing people for burning certain books, or telling the truth about religion, which is that it is bullshit.

[arilando]

Seriously this idea of banning eradicating religion is just stupid. The vast majority of the world is religious and if we ever want to gain the support of the working class we need to make it clear that they don't have to worry about us burning their sacred texts and places of worship. Honestly, I really don't care if if someone believes in religion, if they oppose capitalism, that's good enough for me. If it turns out they were right about the whole God thing, well maybe they'll put in a good word for me, and if I'm right, no harm done.
Off course no religion or any thought should't be banned, but religion should have absolutely zero influence on public policy.

[Hiero]

Not if that culture includes killing people for burning certain books, or telling the truth about religion, which is that it is bullshit.

Well then go join the US army and you can save us from all the barbarians who want to kill people for burning books.

[arilando]

Well then go join the US army and you can save us from all the barbarians who want to kill people for burning books.
All i said was that i do not support the current afghan culture. How can you call yourself a leftist and do that?

[Caj]

It is not about anti-imperialism it is about empathy and understanding. People do not operate in clear defined ideological boundaries of Islamism, imperialism, anti-imperialist etc. People rather operate in complex and highly emotive fields that link multiple ideological categories that are embodied in practice which gives people their sense of identity. Islam is lived in daily life and to burn the Quran invokes direct emotional responses that is tied within the daily humiliation of living under occupation. The reaction to the burning of the Quran is the catharsis of frustrations of occupied peoples. One can not merely support or oppose in such binary sense as that is just an alienated ideological posturing that has no relation to people's daily live.

Yes, I agree with all of this. What I'm saying is that we should be wary of supporting reactionary forces, as many leftists seem to do in these kinds of situations.

[Hiero]

All i said was that i do not support the current afghan culture. How can you call yourself a leftist and do that?

Well if you want to be a communist that is something you have to learn to deal with.

We are dealing with people here, not pre packaged plastic toy soldiers.

[eric922]

There arent 3 billion muslims.
There are over 3 billion followers of the Abrahamic faiths. Jews, Christians, and Muslims. So yeah, go ahead and tell them all how stupid their religion is and how you want to see it eradicated and see how much support you get. Religion is fine as long as its a personal matter. My view is keep religion in the churches, mosques, temples, etc. and I have no problem with it. The majority of working people are religious and if we want to have a true workers movement that includes and represents them then we will have to be willing to accept that religious people will be making policy decisions, because you aren't going to create a workers movement consisting of nothing but atheists. To be clear I'm not saying they should make decisions based on their religion, but you have to be willing to accept that some of the people debate policy in a workers state will be the born again Christian or the devout Muslim who prays 5 times a day.

[arilando]

Well if you want to be a communist that is something you have to learn to deal with.

We are dealing with people here, not pre packaged plastic toy soldiers.
WTF are you talking about? As leftists off course we should criticize the misogynist, fundamentalist, anti-freedom afghan culture. Critizing a culture does not mean you support imperialism, as reform is most efficient if it comes from the inside. How can you call yourself a leftist and support the current state of the adghan culture? Just because a nation is under imperialist attack does not mean we cant criticise it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There arent 3 billion muslims.

My comment was written in response to the advocacy of burning Bibles and Korans. There are easily over 3 billion Muslims and Christians.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Two more American soldiers killed in Afghanistan

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/afghanistan-two-us-soldiers-killed-in-koran-revenge-attack-7468972.html

[~Spectre]

These reactions aren't particularly unique to Muslims, nor to Afghans.

There is large popular support in the United States for making flag burning a felony. Even if it means modifying the sacred constitution.

[sithsaber]

Off topic but i guess i apologize for using the word paki for pakistan. It was quicker to type and due to living in the states had no idea it was a insult.