Khmer Rouge ideology

[Babeufist]

I am interested in your opinion on the Khmer Rouge ideology - is it Communism? I suppose this is non-Marxist kind of agrarian Communism of Asian sort but I read only very few English-language KR documents. Some people say this is fascism but in original KR documents I find no fascist idea.

[daft punk]

No it is not communist nor fascist it was anti-urban crazy garbage. These poor peasants, led by a total nutter, were conned into believing that the urban population were complicit in them getting bombed by America. Later, however, they were backed by America.

[Deicide]

It's yet another regime that helped discredit communism.

It did call itself the ''Communist Party of Kampuchea''. However, we all know party names don't mean anything. Pol Pot's regime was completely bat shit insane. It makes other disastrous ''Communist'' regimes of the 20th century look like Utopias. Even Ceausescu's. :laugh:

The bourgeoisie does claim it was ''communist'' to smear communism. And their propaganda has been effective. From my experience at least, the average person does think Pol Pot's regime was communist.

I'd describe it as ''Agrarian-Fascism'' or as ''Fascism with an Agrarian crust''

[GoddessCleoLover]

Additionally, it was an example of what can happen when the dictatorship of the party supplants the Marxian DoP. Once a vanguard party attains dictatorial powers in can institute murderous policies such as Juche, the GULag system, or even allow capitalist corporations to exploit the workers as in China. The murderous horror show that was "Democratic Kampuchea" was the worst example of the bloody results of the dictatorship of the party, but if were are being hones with ourselves and the working class we must admit that vanguard parties elsewhere have also committed crimes against the people.

[Sasha]

They had very pretty postage stamps though.... :blushing:

[TheGodlessUtopian]

See this usergroup....

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=595

[daft punk]

Additionally, it was an example of what can happen when the dictatorship of the party supplants the Marxian DoP. Once a vanguard party attains dictatorial powers in can institute murderous policies such as Juche, the GULag system, or even allow capitalist corporations to exploit the workers as in China. The murderous horror show that was "Democratic Kampuchea" was the worst example of the bloody results of the dictatorship of the party, but if were are being hones with ourselves and the working class we must admit that vanguard parties elsewhere have also committed crimes against the people.
The Bolsheviks didnt

[GoddessCleoLover]

The Bolsheviks certainly committed crimes against the people by the early 1930s, specifically the famine that accompanied collectivization. I try to keep an open mind about the suppression of Nestor Makhno's forces and Krondstadt, but they were both examples where the Bolsheviks demonstrated dictatorial tendencies. IMO the "bright line" was the 1921 Party Congress where the Bolsheviks liquidated internal party democracy by banning the Democratic Centralist/Group of Fifteen faction. When a party bans a faction for advocating democracy it has begun the journey toward dictatorship, and in this case it became Stalin's personal dictatorship.

[GallowsBird]

It has some elements in common with Fascism and Nazism, namely that it was ultra-nationalistic and based a lot of its policies on ideas of "racial purity". However similar to those however we shouldn't fall into the trap of saying it is from them; it is a parallel development and it owes little to Mussolini; not every evil ideology is Fascist (though many are regardless of what the right claims, such as Falangism and Peronism). Also, unlike those ideologies the ideology of the Khmer Rouge was a lot loser and ill defined. It idealised the peasant as the purest group of Cambodian while killing many of them; it viewed modern technology as bad and rural backwardness as good. Unlike even the Nazis they didn't start with a clear idea of "the enemy" but kept adding to the list. A lot of the crimes of the Khmer Rouge sound like propaganda but they are actually true I am afraid.

As for being Communist; they actually originally had a prince as head of state (who was previously the king) and then to give themselves a veneer of democracy changed him to their president.

Sadly Vietnam never gets the credit it deserves for ousting them but then again they are "evil commies".

[Prometeo liberado]

Always turns into an ant-Stailn rant. Nothing different than arguing communism can't work based on what the Khmer Rouge did. Stalin bashing as an excuse for the ills of the world, communist or not, benifits only the capitalist. If Newt Gingrich suddenly proclaimed himself a socialist how many here would suddenly label him a Stalinist, even though his views had not changed?

[Tavarisch_Mike]

I dont know what to cal the khemer rouges ideology. Maybe pro-feudalistic?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Always turns into an ant-Stailn rant. Nothing different than arguing communism can't work based on what the Khmer Rouge did. Stalin bashing as an excuse for the ills of the world, communist or not, benifits only the capitalist. If Newt Gingrich suddenly proclaimed himself a socialist how many here would suddenly label him a Stalinist, even though his views had not changed?
What? The Khmer Rouge were certainly not Stalinist. Please slap anyone who says so. Although I would not be surprised if Newt Gingrich had a photo of Pol Pot in his wallet with a love letter on the back. It seems fitting. Perhaps RevLeft should get together and create a PSA detailing Newt Gingrich's fascination of and desire to implement Khmer Rouge policies in the US. It would be entertaining.

[Drosophila]

They had very pretty postage stamps though.... :blushing:

And creepy music - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvRgiRPUhaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyxEqj2vo1M

[Prometeo liberado]

What? The Khmer Rouge were certainly not Stalinist. Please slap anyone who says so. Although I would not be surprised if Newt Gingrich had a photo of Pol Pot in his wallet with a love letter on the back. It seems fitting. Perhaps RevLeft should get together and create a PSA detailing Newt Gingrich's fascination of and desire to implement Khmer Rouge policies in the US. It would be entertaining.

I was refering to the constant acusations I hear from the right and left that is void of any sincere analysis. The "well that your Stalinism right there" line always seems to come out. I agree that that not only were the KM not stalinist they were also in no way socialist. An abhoration if you will.

[GoddessCleoLover]

If we are ever going to regain the trust of the working class, we will have to be truthful about the history of the first country in the world where a socialist revolution occurred. Some folks want to blame the revisionism of Khrushchev and Brezhnev or the liberalism of Gorbachev and that is their right. IMO the working class will never trust us again unless we can honestly assure them that our vision of socialism is not the same vision that led to the tragic history of the Soviet Union.

[Ostrinski]

The Bolsheviks didnt

The Bolsheviks certainly committed crimes against the people by the early 1930s, specifically the famine that accompanied collectivization. I try to keep an open mind about the suppression of Nestor Makhno's forces and Krondstadt, but they were both examples where the Bolsheviks demonstrated dictatorial tendencies. IMO the "bright line" was the 1921 Party Congress where the Bolsheviks liquidated internal party democracy by banning the Democratic Centralist/Group of Fifteen faction. When a party bans a faction for advocating democracy it has begun the journey toward dictatorship, and in this case it became Stalin's personal dictatorship. Can we please not do this here? daft punk, Gramsci Guy didn't even mention the Bolsheviks in his post. Why do you attempt to turn every thread into a discussion on the Bolsheviks?

[Omsk]

Dont derail this thread,this thread should be for the purpose of learning,not viewing more old debates.

@Babeufist: They were not Nazis,or something like that,but they were also not communists,if i remember correctly,Pol Pot,at the closing years of his life,denounced communism ,and flerted with capitalism,and hoped that Cambodia goes capitalist.

They changed many "ideologies" ,but Pol Pot tried to link himself to China,and talked nicely about Maosim.

He also had friendly visits by Tito.

There are many myths,but they upheld many un-Marxist principles,and their actions were,both wrong and horrible.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Sorry to have contributed to derailing this thread. To get back to DK, it seems that the KR leaders had a background in classic Marxist theory and practice, at least Khieu Samphan and to some extent Pol Pot. The actual system the KR imposed on the Cambodian people in 1975 seems to have been an weird agricultural form of "juche" where village autarky seems to have been the idealized mode of production. This mode of production is certainly not "Stalinist" as it seems to have been a sort of "peasant communalism". Suffice to say it was a bastardized form of "socialism" that we ought to completely disown.

[milk]

The CPK were try-hard Marxist-Leninists who, with a blended Stalin-Mao political overlay filtered to them by the Vietnamese, attempted to rapidly industrialise the country. Their whole rural focus was geared towards it. Primitive capital accumulation in order to fund industry. And how did they go about that? In short, a Cambodian version of war communism made a great leap into disaster.

[Ostrinski]

Just another agrarian centric socialist project that failed.

[Babeufist]

Thank you for your opinions (and especially TheGodlessUtopian for link) but in this moment I am interested in KR ideology only, not in their political practice.
And I can't find any


ideas of "racial purity"

in their publication. I often heard this opinion but I never read any KR statement or article with racialist elements. All such reproaches were published by enemies of the KR and therefore I am a little suspicious. Fallen revolutions have no good press and very few defenders. So do you know any citation from the KR documents?
And I want to distinguish racist/chauvinist and patriotic/nationalist elements in their ideology and propaganda because many Communist parties used patriotic slogans: from Bolsheviks during the Polish War 1920 to Maoists during the WWII to Viet Cong fighters.
And I know about KR repressions against ethnic minorities (Vietnamese, Cham) but - again - it is not unusual in some Communist regimes (Stalin against Tatars and Chechens in the USSR, Polish Communists against German population 1945, Sandinists against Miskito etc.).

[Babeufist]

This is what I found of KR original documents. Do you know something more? And maybe anyone knows any Communist group who supports KR ideology?


Khmer Rouge Slogans and Theories
Compiled by Ser Sayana Translated by Sour Bunsou
¨ Our task is to be responsible for our speech, acts and political standpoint. These must be in conformity with people's ideas and interests. If a mistake is made, we must work it out. This is what we call responsibility before the people.
¨ In the military context, this stance can be described as having destroyed the enemy one after another.
¨ The wind from the east always beats the wind from the west. (Notebook 053 KHN)
¨ Front troops mobilize their forces to smash the enemy. By so doing, we will soon gain victory and be able to protect and expand our forces. (Notebook 194 KNH)
¨ Strengthen and expand the absolute stance of proletarianism while absolutely sweeping out non-proletarian stances. (Notebook 135 KNH)
¨ All important lines and activities in the rear must be a strong and transparent backing for front line. (Notebook 200 KNH)
¨ Absolutely purge CIA agents from Angkar and Kampuchea forever. (Notebook 076 KNH )
¨ Keeping you is no gain, losing you is no loss.
¨ Be committed to absolutely abolishing the stances of privatism, materialism, authoritarianism and [no-good] moral of life. (Tungpadevat Book, 1976) .
¨ Destroy communication networks! (KR notebook 194 KNH)
¨ The revolutionary initiative is self mastery.
¨ Only the people can build world history.
¨ A soft robe can make a good tie. (Notebook Nhok Sarun).
¨ Hunger is the most influential disease.
¨ Must achieve one hundred percent the plan of three and a half tons and seven tons per hectare for 1978. (Notebook 067 KNH)
¨ Expand the militia war in all districts. - Attack and break up the ranks of enemy. - Attack enemy's arsenals. (Notebook 194 KNH)
¨ Cooperative: Villages and Sub-districts, which share, work and receive the same interest.
¨ Mobile Work Brigade: Male and female youths, who are the front forces assigned to work intensively at main working sites.
¨ Core Task: A necessary piece of work to be prioritized. (Extracted from a reading book for grade 2 students, published in 1977 by the Ministry of Education of Democratic Kampuchea.
¨ Reject no-good cadre who refuse to make changes in their attitude; abolish authoritarianism, bureaucracy, feudalism, and opportunism. (KR notebook 076 KNH) ¨ Prioritize national independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity, and credit.
¨ Constantly strengthen patriotism, revolution, and be proud of our revolution, nation, people, revolutionary army and our party. Make them become as hard as iron. (Quoted from KR notebook Number 076 KNH)
¨ Increase mental and physical strength of every individual, unit, and the whole nation. Be united to struggle to get rid of all kinds of enemies, especially Yuon enemy of aggression. Protect and maintain the Cambodian nation and race forever.
¨ Nothing harmful to the nation, the revolution, or the party must be thought of or created.
¨ Absolutely get rid of CIA agents from units and the territory of Cambodia. (Quoted from KR notebook Number 076 KNH)
¨ Angkar is the master of the territory.
¨ Angkar is very correct, bright and terrific!
¨ Must be loyal and love Angkar!
¨ Must love Angkar with no limit!
¨ Be committed to weakening and smashing feudalists, conservatives, and imperialists who are "reactionaries".
¨ Be committed to smashing hidden enemies burrowing inside--CIA and KGB agents!
¨ Be committed to sacrificing our lives in fulfilling Angkar's labor tasks!
¨ Angkor selects only those who are never tired!
¨ One feels frightened only just to hear the word "Angkar".
¨ The comparison of Angkar doesn't mean comparison of military and economic strength, but human and spiritual strength; that is, the human being is chosen to lead economic and military forces.
¨ Outstanding cadre and committee have to spare no effort to tackle and improve the living standard of people in all fields and at all times based on the stance of responsibility and high creativity. (KNH076)
¨ Revolution against imperialism is not an action of inviting guests to have meal, writing articles, braiding, education, softness or fear of enemy. But it is a class wrath seized to topple another class. (KR notebook Nhok: 78).
¨ Externally, American imperialists are powerful, but their internal strength is weak because people do not support them. (Nhok, p.77)
¨ Be humble; draw experience from the masses; be linked with the stance of the masses; and be close to the masses. (Iv, P. 74)
¨ We have to support what the enemy opposes and vice versa. (Nhok, p.78)
¨ The worms inside the meat of fish paste will not show up if boiling water is poured down.
¨ Baskets used for screening rice retain only the good rice seeds.
¨ A child is a clean-cut individual.
¨ Political, ideological and organizational measures are the first and last priorities. (KNH079, p.18)
¨ Individualism is to collectivism as capitalism is to socialism. (KNH079, p. 11)
¨ Cut off the ownership regime and the old commerce and create a new one.
¨ Those who have never labored must be made to do so in agricultural production. (KHN179)
¨ We expel all people and enemies. (KNH179)
¨ Make every effort to destroy enemy forces, maintain and nourish our forces. The more we fight, the stronger we will be, and the more we will win.
¨ Combat enemy movements and stir up the masses to stand up to conquer our enemies and master our territory. (Excerpts from notebook 200 KNH)
¨ To win over enemies, we must destroy the internal ones.
¨ Loss of life is a simple thing for a man of war.
¨ Life devoted to battle is one honored in value.
¨ For the people and the army, to live or to die must be for the greatness of the revolution.
¨ Communists are best known by the sacrifices they make for their country. (Excerpts from Comrade Iv’s notebook)
¨ Combine the combating of with the disbanding of enemy troops. (Excerpts from notebook 194 KNH)
¨ Stand absolute at all times with the standpoint of independence, self-mastery, and self-reliance.
¨ Absolutely get rid of the Vietnamese invaders wishing to swallow our territory from Cambodia forever. (Excerpts from notebook 076KNH)
¨ Unconditionally and highly self-consciously respect the disciplinary organization of the Kampuchean Communist Youth League. (Excerpts from notebook 26KNH)
¨ Prevention of diseases is a matter of importance. (Excerpts from notebook 188KNH)
¨ We are to oppose what our enemies support and support what they oppose.
¨ Revolution is a war of people and will not be victorious unless there is stirring up of people. (Excerpts from Comrade Nhok’s notebook)
¨ Without the force of labor, the revolution cannot move forward. It is only by the force of struggle that favored results can be achieved.
¨ In order to make revolution there must be revolutionary people; and in order for people to be revolutionary they must possess the standpoint and the spirit of the party. (Excerpts from Comrade Keo’s notebook)
¨ We hope for peace, but Americans are stubborn and counterattack. We absolutely must not surrender, but go on with war, and construction will be the second priority.
¨ Die for the interest of the people which is heavier than Mount Meru. Capitalists, feudalists and reactionaries are not even as heavy as a goose's feather. (Notebook Nhok, p.60)
¨ How does an elderly, insane man remove a mountain? His son will follow him and when his son dies, his grandson will go on with the model. As for the two mountains, they can not grow any longer no matter how big they are. On the contrary, once we gradually remove mountains from regime to regime, they will be lower and lower (Tai Haong Mountains). (Notebook Nhok, p.60)

[Babeufist]

And the second document:


MINUTE OF THE STANDING COMMITTEE
THE FRONT
11 March 1976
PARTICIPANTS: COMRADE SECRETARY GENERAL [Pol Pot] COMRADE DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL [Noun Chea] COMRADE VORN [Vorn Vet] COMRADE KHIEU [Son Sen] COMRADE HEM [Khieu Samphan] COMRADE DOEUN COMRADE TUM COMRADE TOUCH
AGENDA: SIHANOUK'S RESIGNATION FROM HIS POSTI.
Report on the Resignation of Sihanouk
Comrade HEM reported to the Standing Committee on the resignation of Sihanouk. Sihanouk has sent two letters written in French:
- The first letter conveys his resignation and explains the important reason for which he is resigning. In particular, he emphasizes his various health problems, which do not allow him to continue his work.
- The second letter is a statement addresseed to the people of Democratic Kampuchea informing them that he wishes to resign from his post before the 20th March 1976.
During his meeting respectively with the Ambassadors of Mauritania and Senegal, Sihanouk has also indicated that he categorically resigns. But during his meeting with the Chinese Economic Delegation he grumbled about his illnesses...
II. Angkar's Opinion
1. Reason for his Resignation.
There are two: in the long term and in the short term.
A. In the Long Term: it is the difference of "classes", the difference between the grass roots of the Revolution and his own person and family. He cannot live with us. If in the past he was able to remain with us, it was simply because of his strategy. As we no longer go along with his strategy, he can onlyremain provisionally with us. It is not the first time that Sihanouk has resigned. He did that in 1971 already.
B. In the Short Term: It is a strategic difference together with the grass roots difference. An example was the case when we dispatched our Ambassadors abroad without consulting him. The incident has no importance but he would have thought that we no longer have any need for him. Thus the wrangle over position continues.
But the situation has evolved more thoroughly than before. Outside the country, Sihanouk can work with us. While inside the country he feels completely lost without any future. He is very frustrated. He lacks work, he is bored and the environment that surrounds him, in particular his wife who cries constantly, pushes him to the point that he cannot endure any longer. In the case that he decides to remain with us, that cannot last either, at the most l or 2 years. As he wishes to leave, his leaving now is the best.
2. POSITIVE and Negative aspects of his Resignation
A. Positive Aspects for our Revolution :
- All the people of Kampuchea will feel a huge surge of relief. The same applies to all our cadres and military. As far as the world is concerned, there won't be any problem.
- We can resolve the problem of the nominattion in our State Organisation easily. And under these conditions we can work peacefully without any obstacles.
- Our work in External Affairs will thus bee improved because henceforth we will make the decisions ourselves, we will express our position by ourselves. Without Sihanouk we are clean-cut.
B. Negative Aspects for our Revolution
- On the one hand, Vietnam attacks us and ttreats us as being too far to the left. Sihanouk has helped us, so why should we drop him? Vietnam will point out to others, saying something bad about us, but good about themselves. But it is a provisional problem only. If in the final analysis we remain very close to them, we shall certainly have no problem.
- On the other hand, the enemy is about to attack us, but we should let them be for say half a month. But even if Sihanouk had not resigned the enemy will always attacks us, their spies still exist. If the enemy does not cease attacking us, are we going to suffer? No, because they cannot isolate us.
3. MEASURES to be Taken: two directives
A. First directive: We don't reject him. We ask him to remain in the sameposition. If he wishes to remain with us, he could remain for 5 months, l or 3 years, as long he would like. If he cannot resist, it is not because of us, it is not our fault. In fact he won't be able to remain with us. He and his family can see very well that they won't have well-being We don't give him any choice, if he does not wish to remain, too bad for him.
Thus we must go and see him and ask him to excuse us for being unable to pay him visits as often as we would like, because we were very busy. We SHOULD acknowledge reception of his letter. That is why we come together to see him. The Situation of our country is very difficult, very poor, the country must face tremendous difficulties. We must resolve all the problems with national dignity. It is in this way that we can be truly independent. Our position, including that of the government, is of always recognizing his noble contribution, HIS deeds and efforts for the country, in particular in the international arena.
The [Khmer] Nation owes him its gratitude for his highly patriotic contribution, something which our Assembly has already noted in its resolutions. We respect a lot [our] collective decisions once they have been adopted. But we request that he remains with the people. The people will preserve his nationalist undertakings and we also will congratulate him and will do our utmost to implement the resolution of our extraordinary session of the National Assembly.
B. Second Directive: in the event that he insists on resigning. We thank him. In the recent past we fought together, shoulder to shoulder. We very much regret his resignation. We shall convoke a meeting of the Council of Ministers to take a decision. If he resigns we won't allow him to leave the country. His departure will render the situation complicated to China. The enemy does not cease to condemn and criticize us. If we refuse to allow him to leave, the enemy can criticize us at least for one month.
Certain reasonable attitudes of Sihanouk show a patriotic spirit, but his wife has no patriotic spirit at all. Consequently, if we are not clear in solving this problem, it is possible that unresolved questions will complicate our tasks later on. Thus we should go for the first solution and if that does not work, adopt the second one.
III. ANGKAR'S OPINION (meeting of 13 March 1976)
Comrade HEM made several reports to the Standing Committee on the Sihanouk problem. He has made a categorical decision to resign. He asks Angkar that it TAKE PITY ON him. HE lowers and humbles himself only requesting Angkar that it accepts his resignation. This resignation is not against us...
Comrade Secretary General pointed out that it is an important question to be decided by the Central Committee of the Party. But Comrade Secretary General has already prepared a number of ideas, which WERE supported by the Standing Committee:
1. To forbid Sihanouk from leaving the country is the first measure to be taken.
2. It is necessary to call a meeting of the Council of Ministers to submit to it reports on the matter, in order for the latter to make a decision and, then, to meet Sihanouk once again, with the presence of Penn NOUTHIt is necessary that arrangements be made to record the conversation with Sihanouk.
It is necessary to speak to him in such a way for him to keep UP his hopes and allow the recording of his conversation. It is for our documentation.
3. To dispatch telegrams to the sons of Sihanouk asking them to return as soon as possible, pointing out that they must come for the New Year and the National Day celebration. We must solve this problem once and for all. We must also solve it for the interests of our revolution.
4. Is Our Decision TRUE TO Revolutionary Morality?
a. As the morality of the Revolution or the interests of the Revolution. The morality of the revolution must be based on the interests of the revolution. It is a gain for the revolution. To allow Sihanouk to leave is a loss for the Revolution. In reality, Sihanouk is a meek tiger, which only has its skin and bones left, without claws and the fangs. HIS beard has also been shaven. Thus all that remains is to wait for the day of his death. But if this old tiger is freed in the street, all the children would certainly be afraid of it. Certain old men that did not know this meek tiger would also be afraid.
b. Sihanouk participated with us in our Revolution despite his differences with us. That is the reason why our Party decided that Sihanouk should become President of Democratic Kampuchea. But Sihanouk refuses. Thus it is up to him, he can remain or not, it is his problem.
We consider him as a Senior Personality. We shall not kill him. But vis-a-vis the people and the Nation, Sihanouk must also be punished for his fault of having massacred the people.
Thus our decision is reasonably taken in every respect. We shall not change it. But if he continues to resist us, we shall take measures to liquidate him.
5. Direction of the Evolution of our Revolution:
Consequently, it is necessary to put an end to feudalism. We have reached this stage. The whole feudal regime has been destroyed and definitively dismantled by the Revolution. The Monarchy existing for over 2000 years has finally been dismantled. We do not have any other alternatives. Reactions will certainly take place, but we must follow the path of the Revolution in order to win.
6. Another Measure to be Taken:
Henceforth, Sihanouk shall not be allowed to meet foreign diplomats. We shall give them valid reasons to explain the situation.

[Tim Cornelis]

Fascist. The most important aspect of fascist doctrine is palingenetic ultranationalim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism).

The Khmer Rouge wanted to stage a national rebirth, which entailed restoring the Khmer Empire. So it was definitely palingenetic ultra nationalist.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Since when do Marxists separate theory from practice? An analysis of the KR ought to focus on their praxis, in other words the practical application of their theory. KR praxis involved deportation of of the urban population and the slaughter of these poor folks in rural death camps. I don't often agree with the Vietnamese Communists, but their decision to militarily dethrone the monstrous Khmer Rouge was an act of heroic revolutionary internationalism.

[rednordman]

You know the real twist in the whole tragedy of the Khmer rouge, is that original, they where ALL genuine revolutionary leftists, most likely in the center/c-left of the communism scale. Pol pot included (he was educated in France, and influence by the mostly Trotskyist french left at the time) . What happened once they attained power is one of the largest mysteries in world history. How they went from a genuine revolutionary force to one of the worst dictatorships in modern history, people really struggle to understand.

I would also like to point out that despite certain elements of nationalism (no worse than many modern western right-wingers ideals) promoted by the regime, they can hardly be described as fascist as there was practically zero state - being as they ran there dictatorship with zero currency, and a completely collapsed state infrastructure. Also despite the fact that they killed many people, there military prowess was very weak, and it took hardly any effort at all by the Vietnamese to overthrow the regime.

All in all, truly baffling yet totally awful period in history, and neither capitalist, communist or fascist. It was a regime that the world had hardly ever seen before and have not seen since.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Perhaps their lack of military prowess was related to the fact that they completely destroyed Khmer national-popular culture and therefore the Khmer people were unwilling to defend the KR regime.

[rednordman]

Perhaps their lack of military prowess was related to the fact that they completely destroyed Khmer national-popular culture and therefore the Khmer people were unwilling to defend the KR regime.But this asks another interesting question. How did this happen when a huge proportion of the Cambodian people originally supported them (even the king) before they got power?

Also its also import to point that they didn't even use money or any currency at all. From what i have read about the regime, it was as if the country was one massive gulag. And unlike with other socialist states (SU/NK etc) there is virtually no-one to challenge this information.

[rednordman]

^also, going back to the fascism argument. I'm a believer that fascism is pretty much capitalism in decay, but capitalism (as an ideology that is) had failed very badly in Cambodia before the KR.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The people of Cambodia initially supported the KR because they thought the KR would bring much-needed social reforms.

[Deicide]

The people of Cambodia initially supported the KR because they thought the KR would bring much-needed social reforms.

That's probably the biggest mistake in human history.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I would say that the greatest mistake in modern history involved the millions of Germans who voted for Hitler and/or the NSDAP. The distinction is that the Khmer people never really chose the KR, rather the KR was able to step into the void left by the departure of the US military and the defeat of the ARVN in 1974-1975.

[Grenzer]

The Khmer Rouge is quite an interesting movement to study. I would point you toward Milk's site (http://padevat.info/) but it seems to be offline. It's crucial to study the particulars of the conditions that existed in Cambodia, though there seem to be few good sources and they are difficult to find. The template for the Khmer Rouge was the typical Stalinist brew of nationalism, chauvinism, and mass murder. The Khmer Rouge did have some collectivist elements, and a particularly bizarre form of economic strategy; but foremost it seems to have been an ultra nationalist and racist movement


Always turns into an ant-Stailn rant. Nothing different than arguing communism can't work based on what the Khmer Rouge did. Stalin bashing as an excuse for the ills of the world, communist or not, benifits only the capitalist. If Newt Gingrich suddenly proclaimed himself a socialist how many here would suddenly label him a Stalinist, even though his views had not changed?

Not to get off topic much, but I couldn't disagree more. Arguably, Marxism-Leninism has done more to harm the movement of Communism than Joseph McCarthy could have ever dreamed of. Wherever it's gone, Marxism-Leninism has left capitalism, imperialism, and a heap of dead bodies in it's wake. After nearly a hundred years of letting Marxist-Leninists do their thing, they've been worse than useless: we're actually further from revolution than we were a hundred years ago.

On the contrary, this delusional insistence on the greatness of Dear Leader Stalin is the most effective form of anti-communist propaganda there is. Through it's constant creation of those grotesque parodies of socialism, it instills confusion as to what actually constitutes socialism in the first place.

As for Newt Gingrich.. the only difference between a capitalist and a Stalinist is strategy. It seems like you guys are willing to use any pretext to sing a paean to your god.

[Deicide]

Not to get off topic much, but I couldn't disagree more. Arguably, Marxism-Leninism has done more to harm the movement of Communism than Joseph McCarthy could have ever dreamed of. Wherever it's gone, Marxism-Leninism has left capitalism, imperialism, and a heap of dead bodies in it's wake. After nearly a hundred years of letting Marxist-Leninists do their thing, they've been worse than useless: we're actually further from revolution than we were a hundred years ago.

On the contrary, this delusional insistence on the greatness of Dear Leader Stalin is the most effective form of anti-communist propaganda there is. Through it's constant creation of those grotesque parodies of socialism, it instills confusion as to what actually constitutes socialism in the first place.

Grenzer it's like you read my mind:laugh:

Stalinists never sieze to amaze me, their religious zeal knows no bounds!

[Tim Cornelis]

I would also like to point out that despite certain elements of nationalism (no worse than many modern western right-wingers ideals) promoted by the regime, they can hardly be described as fascist as there was practically zero state - being as they ran there dictatorship with zero currency, and a completely collapsed state infrastructure.

Palingenetic ultranationalism perfectly fits the Khmer Rouge. They avowedly intended to restore (to a certain degree) the Khmer Empire of the 15th century. Eradicating Western influences and reducing the country to mass peasantry fits this well. They also ethnically cleansed Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai populations (more than 80% of these minorities on Cambodian soil). This goes a little beyond the patriotism of the contemporary Western rightism.


Also despite the fact that they killed many people, there military prowess was very weak, and it took hardly any effort at all by the Vietnamese to overthrow the regime.

Military strength is irrelevant imo.


^also, going back to the fascism argument. I'm a believer that fascism is pretty much capitalism in decay, but capitalism (as an ideology that is) had failed very badly in Cambodia before the KR.

Fascism rears its ugly head wherever there is social dissatisfaction as it promises the restoration of a former empire (the national myth), which is appealing as this former empire is often perceived as prosperous and successful.

[Imposter Marxist]

its red fascism allied with state capitalism, bro

[rednordman]

Palingenetic ultranationalism perfectly fits the Khmer Rouge. They avowedly intended to restore (to a certain degree) the Khmer Empire of the 15th century. Eradicating Western influences and reducing the country to mass peasantry fits this well. They also ethnically cleansed Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai populations (more than 80% of these minorities on Cambodian soil). This goes a little beyond the patriotism of the contemporary Western rightism.



Military strength is irrelevant imo.



Fascism rears its ugly head wherever there is social dissatisfaction as it promises the restoration of a former empire (the national myth), which is appealing as this former empire is often perceived as prosperous and successful....for fascism, military strength is definitely NOT irrelevant. It is almost everything (just ask any supporter of the BNP). Would Pinochet have got power in Chile without it? He even needed the help of the USA.

Despite that even if the good arguments you have made, it all comes to the conclusion that they must have been batshit insane. Also isn't the Khmers not inclusive to Cambodia, but also to Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Thailand?

[Tim Cornelis]

...for fascism, military strength is definitely NOT irrelevant. It is almost everything (just ask any supporter of the BNP). Would Pinochet have got power in Chile without it? He even needed the help of the USA.

Despite that even if the good arguments you have made, it all comes to the conclusion that they must have been batshit insane. Also isn't the Khmers not inclusive to Cambodia, but also to Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Thailand?

Militarism is not a defining aspect. It usually coincides with fascism as it is a display of power (totalitarianism), which, on its turn, is a defining aspect of fascism.

Your example of Chile and Pinochet is fallacious. Just because it was relevant in that particular instance does not mean it's the general rule that applies to all fascisms. Secondly, Pinochet was not a fascist. He was an authoritarian nationalist, sure, but he was no fascist. The ultra-nationalism of Pinochet was populist, not palingenetic.


its red fascism allied with state capitalism, bro

That's just empty rhetoric...

[rednordman]

I accept all you said in that last post but...whats the difference between authoritarian nationalism and fascism? Are they not virtually the same. As in despite all the positive propaganda that the say government's will spew out to appease the population, they all end up behaving like genuine Nazi's in the end.

[Babeufist]

The most important aspect of fascist doctrine is palingenetic ultranationalim (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palingenetic_ultranationalism)

they completely destroyed Khmer national-popular culture
Any contradiction, I think.

Since when do Marxists separate theory from practice?
I see serious differences between theory and praxis in Social Democracy, Stalinism and so on. But they are still leftists.


They avowedly intended to restore (to a certain degree) the Khmer Empire of the 15th century.

What is source of this information? Somebody can say Stalin wanted to restore the Tzar empire (he conquered Finland, Lithuania, Poland etc.). Was he a fascist?

They also ethnically cleansed Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai populations (more than 80% of these minorities on Cambodian soil).
I gave examples another Communist regimes that made ethnic cleanings.
I am not defender of the KR. I want to know what did they really want. Therefore I need first-hand sources.

[Ismail]

Enver Hoxha noted in his diary that Khieu Samphan and other Khmer Rouge officials were initially regarded by Albanian officials as, in Hoxha's words, shallow Marxists. Their opinions on the Khmer Rouge continued to dampen as the Albanian embassy in "Democratic Kampuchea" was isolated from the rest of the country by barbed wire. By the time of the Vietnamese-Cambodian conflict Hoxha was firmly on the side of Vietnam and strongly denounced China's invasion of Vietnam in response to its toppling of Beijing's ally, Pol Pot.

Ideologically the Khmer Rouge were a mixture of Maoism and Cambodian nationalism. Obviously their Maoism wasn't much like Mao's, but they still adhered to Mao's "Three Worlds Theory," called their economic program the "Super Great Leap Forward," and took a pro-Chinese position in foreign affairs. At this same time they uttered openly chauvinist and racist words when battling the Vietnamese, calling for the "purity" of the Cambodian "race," etc.

The RevLeft user milk (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=11970) indeed has the best information on the Khmer Rouge.

One amusing thing to note is that Yugoslavia actually denounced the Vietnamese invasion and backed the "Democratic Government of Kampuchea in exile," as did the United States, Britain, China, etc. Then again Pol Pot also said this:

"Like our Democratic Cambodia, Yugoslavia is a non-aligned country which has adhered to the position of preserving independence. Friendship between our two countries is therefore based on the same principle. We have always esteemed and respected Comrade President Tito and the friendly Yugoslav people. Comrade President Tito and the Yugoslav people have always supported and helped us. We have sympathy for them and wish to express our thanks to Comrade President Tito and the friendly Yugoslav people."
(Pol Pot, quoted in Journal of Contemporary Asia Vol. 8 No. 3, 1978. p. 413.)

[Tim Cornelis]

I accept all you said in that last post but...whats the difference between authoritarian nationalism and fascism? Are they not virtually the same. As in despite all the positive propaganda that the say government's will spew out to appease the population, they all end up behaving like genuine Nazi's in the end.

Palingenetic nationalism is about staging a national rebirth by recreating a national myth, e.g. Scandinavian fascists using Nordic mythology and viking symbolism, or German fascists wanting to restore the borders of the German empire and Prussian symbolism.


Any contradiction, I think.

Not necessarily, you can destroy contemporary culture to safeguard previous culture.


What is source of this information? Somebody can say Stalin wanted to restore the Tzar empire (he conquered Finland, Lithuania, Poland etc.). Was he a fascist?

I heard it in a documentary, I'm pretty sure I saw it on youtube, but I don't feel like looking for it (watching a whole documentary again for a source I may not find). According to wikipedia: "Not content with ruling Cambodia, the KR leaders also dreamed of reviving the Angkorian empire of a thousand years earlier, which ruled over large parts of what today are Thailand and Vietnam. This involved launching military attacks into southern Vietnam in which hundreds of unarmed villagers were massacred." Though it does not cite a source.

An introduction to a paper I found read:


Democratic Kampuchea contained at its core an all-encompassing spiritual-religious experience that drove the totalitarian movement. For the Communist Party of Kampuchea’s leaders, or Angkar, this revolution embodied a Voegelinian “re-divinization of man and society,” or more broadly speaking, a re-visioning of the Khmer Empire. I first relate a brief history of the Khmer religious meta-narrative over successive kingdoms and empires, and then point out that the Khmer Rouge politico-religious experience starts with the ‘death of god’, or the destruction of the previous faith including the Sangha, wats, and monks. Total physical, social, and emotional transformation follows with the influence of Theravada Buddhist understanding at its roots, and subsequently climaxing with the birth of a counter-religion, with the substitution of Angkar as its new “god”.

(http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1903043)


Some scholars even see the infamous Pol Pot regime of Democratic Kampuchea as a socialist-nationalist revolution (Vickery, 1986, 35) to transform Cambodia into a utopian society. Pol Pot himself envisioned a "return" to an agrarian society with intensive, nonseasonal "permanent irrigation," modeling on the mistaken interpretation of the canal networks at Angkor (Kiernan, 8). In addition, the Khmer Rouge regime also had a Khmer purification program which aimed at reducing the ethnic minorities in Cambodia — including Chams, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thais, Lao — from 20 percent to 1 percent of the total population, and although the majority Khmers comprised the largest number of victims, ethnic minorities were "virtually erased from history" by the regime (Kiernan, 251).

http://www.beyondintractability.org/node/1059

I will look for more.


I gave examples another Communist regimes that made ethnic cleanings.

The purpose also matters.

[Babeufist]

Here is link to another KR documents - in my opinion we should to study before any estimating.
http://www.archive.org/details/SelectedDocumentsOfTheKhmerRouge (http://www.archive.org/details/SelectedDocumentsOfTheKhmerRouge)
http://www.archive.org/details/GreatVictoryOfTheCambodianPeopleWarmlyCongratulati ngThePatriotic (http://www.archive.org/details/GreatVictoryOfTheCambodianPeopleWarmlyCongratulati ngThePatriotic)
I don't think KR were fascists. But they were fascists in your opinion. This is the question: how did they turn from Communist into fascist? Pol Pot was primarily member of the French Communist Party not National Front.
I remember a story of any old Polish communist who was a guide for Khmer Rouge delegation about 1973. One time they stayed in any Warsaw cafe and the KR member suddenly said: "When we will win all that people [i.e. visitors of the cafe] will be executed!" - "Why?", Polish communist asked. - "Because all they are bourgeoisie", he answered. In fact visitors of the cafe were students mostly. But this KR member lived in very poor Asian countryside and he was hateful to every wealthy people, especially urban-living.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Babeufist, IMO your anecdote is a more telling characterization of KR praxis than purely theoretical documents promulgated by Khieu Samphan, Saloth Sar, Ieng Sary etcetera. Anyone can type or dictate some theoretical exegesis that generally conforms with the approved ideology, in this case Marxism-Lenism. What really counts is the praxis, what really happened in the daily life of the working people of Democratic Kampuchea. This praxis at some point abandoned Marxism for some weird type of utopian poor peasant-based form of "communism". KR policy to engage in the mass murder of all urban classes was heinous and even a teenager who had just read the Manifesto for the first time would no it had nothing to do with Marxism. Perhaps Enver Hoxha was right about the KR leadership, that they were shallow Marxists who at some point creative their own bizarre form of murderous dystopian agro-"communism".

[Ismail]

I reread the actual quote by Hoxha in his diary, he mentioned Ieng Sary, not Khieu Samphan.

"Cambodia was called a socialist country. On top of this 'socialist' country the 'communist party' was allegedly in force, which was led by two main persons, a certain Ieng Sary and Pol Pot. Also in this leadership was Khieu Samphan. But the highlights were the first two.

We neither met Pol Pot nor had ever heard the name. He was kept secret, and Ieng Sary we met in person several times and our impression was not good. He was not a Marxist. Many of his views were not only shallow but also wrong."
(Enver Hoxha. Ditar për çështje ndërkombëtare Vol. 12. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1985. p. 14.)

So yeah, he didn't even call him a Marxist, shallow or otherwise.

[Babeufist]

@ Goti123


The purpose also matters.

The purpose was total liquidation of an old society. The principal enemy was Khmer upper and middle class. National minorities were oppressed not because of their ethnicity but because of their social status: Chinese as a petit bourgeoisie, Cham as a religious (Islam) believers, Vietnamese as enemy's "fifth column" etc.


Pol Pot himself envisioned a "return" to an agrarian society

Any "return to agrarian society" is not "return to the Khmer Empire". And - again - I want first-hand sources (i.e. KR documents). I'm sorry but Wikipedia is not enough for me. And "Some scholars" who "even see" too.
@ Gramsci Guy:
First of all I wrote like you


I suppose this is non-Marxist kind of agrarian Communism of Asian sort

You say

What really counts is the praxis


You are right. But you should remember I lived several years in the socialist country and I know good intentions very often failed. Therefore I try to understand the Khmer Rouge intentions, motivations, beliefs. In my opinion the very fundament of their ideology was hatred towards all wealthy/urban/Western people. Something like MIM-style "third-worldist" Maoism but more authentic.

[Babeufist]

They also ethnically cleansed Chinese, Vietnamese, and Thai populations

The first and most loyal supporters of the KR were mountain national minorities - so-called Khmer Loeu.


you can destroy contemporary culture to safeguard previous culture

But this previous culture has Buddhist character and KR hated, fought and destroyed Buddhism.

[Stadtsmasher]

I dont know what to cal the khemer rouges ideology. Maybe pro-feudalistic?

It is Theravada Buddhist aeceticism generalized and forced down the throats of the masses. Total annihiliation of "ego", everyone wears the same clothes, eschews all personal posessions, etc. Its like trying to force everyone to be a monk.

Pol Pot himself admitted he only read Marx in summaries and digests. Most of the other KR's didn't even read that much.

[kanto]

Khmer Rouge ideology was just a extreme form of maoism.