Homs in Syria-what barbarities is the government now inflicting on its people?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16970985


Opposition and human rights activists say more than 400 people have been killed in Homs since rockets and mortars began hitting homes in the city's opposition-dominated districts on 4 February. Tanks and troops are now said to be massed on the outskirts, poised to launch a ground assault on protest centres such as Baba Amr.
Homs has been a focus of anti-government unrest since demonstrations against President Bashar al-Assad erupted in March 2011. Activists say more than 7,000 people have been killed by security forces across the country. The government says at least 2,000 security forces personnel have died combating "armed criminal gangs and terrorists".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16971432

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17124786


Journalists Marie Colvin and Remi Ochlik die in Homs

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58653000/jpg/_58653770_7a22ac12-e399-4a40-b2b3-6b670c35b0e0.jpg On Tuesday, Marie Colvin said the bombardment of Baba Amr had been "unrelenting"


Two prominent Western journalists have been killed in the Syrian city of Homs in the latest violence in the besieged city which left 20 people dead.
Sunday Times reporter Marie Colvin, an American, and award-winning French photographer Remi Ochlik died when a shell hit a makeshift media centre in the Baba Amr district.
Opposition-held areas of Homs have been besieged since 4 February.
Thousands have died in unrest against the rule of President Bashar al-Assad.
More than 40 people died on Tuesday alone, including Rami al-Sayed, a man who broadcast a live video stream from Homs used by world media.
Mr Sayed was fatally wounded by shrapnel during the shelling of Baba Amr. His brother posted a video of his body in a makeshift hospital.
The Red Cross has called on the government and rebels to agree to a daily ceasefire, to allow medical supplies to reach the worst affected areas and get civilians out, but there is no sign yet of this being agreed.
'Dreadful events' Ms Colvin and Mr Ochlik were reportedly staying in a house in Baba Amr that was being used by activists as a media centre when it was hit by a shell on Wednesday morning.
Rockets were also said to have hit the building's garden when people tried to flee afterwards.
At least two other foreign journalists were wounded, activists said.
One was named as British freelance photographer Paul Conroy, who was working with Ms Colvin, and Edith Bouvier of the French newspaper, Le Figaro. Ms Bouvier was said to be in a serious condition.
In Paris, French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said the deaths were "another demonstration of the degradation of the situation in Syria and of a repression that is more and more intolerable".
UK Prime Minister David Cameron told parliament: "This is a desperately sad reminder of the risks that journalists take to inform the world of what is happening, and the dreadful events in Syria."
The US state department referred to "another example of the shameless brutality" of the Syrian regime.
The editor of the Sunday Times, John Witherow, said it was doing what it could to recover Ms Colvin's body and get Mr Conroy to safety.
"Marie was an extraordinary figure in the life of the Sunday Times, driven by a passion to cover wars in the belief that what she did mattered," he added. "She believed profoundly that reporting could curtail the excesses of brutal regimes and make the international community take notice."
There was no immediate comment from Mr Ochlik's agency, IP3 Press.
Mr Ochlik, 28, had reported from Haiti and covered many of the recent uprisings in the Arab world.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58646000/jpg/_58646684_jex_1328628_de27-1.jpg
Syrian activist Sami Ibrahim has given an account of events leading up to the deaths

Ms Colvin, in her 50s, had been a foreign correspondent for the Sunday Times for two decades, and had reported from several war zones. She lost the sight in one eye in Sri Lanka in 2001 after being hit by shrapnel.
On Tuesday, she told the BBC the bombardment of Baba Amr by Syrian government artillery and tanks had been "unrelenting".
"I watched a little baby die today, absolutely horrific, a two year old - found the shrapnel had gone into the left chest and the doctor said: 'I can't do anything,' and his little tummy just kept heaving until he died. That is happening over and over and over.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58627000/jpg/_58627841_58627840.jpg
Marie Colvin spoke to the BBC from Homs on Tuesday

"There are 28,000 people in Baba Amr," she added. "The Syrians will not let them out and are shelling all the civilian areas.
The Sunday Times on Wednesday made available Ms Corvin's last article in which she said, "We live in fear of a massacre (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/news/article874796.ece)".
Western journalists have mostly been barred from Syria since the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad began last March.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17124786#story_continues_3) http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/58448000/jpg/_58448059_58448058.jpg


Maps and videos of Homs fighting (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16970985)
Guide: Syria Crisis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13855203)


But increasingly, they have risked entering the country undercover, helped by networks of activists, to report from flashpoints.
Last month, the French television journalist, Gilles Jacquier, was killed in Homs while visiting the city on a government-organised trip.
Anthony Shadid, of the New York Times, died of an apparent asthma attack in Syria last week.
As many as 50 people are feared to have been killed on Tuesday in the northern province of Idlib.
New videos posted online by activists in Idlib suggest opponents of President Assad were the victims of summary executions.
(very disturbing video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXJuXKJAL44

It is disgusting that a State is using heavy artillery to basically massacre a protesting populace. So there might be armed protesters ... how the fuck does a rocket know the difference between an armed protester and everyone else? What is also disturbing is how Syria's "Allies" around the world have continued to stick with this government despite the fact that they hit the new low of using tanks to kill their own children. It is sick that "anti-Imperialist solidarity" means solidarity with Assad and not with infants getting needlessly killed because their government is firing HEAVY ARTILLERY into civilian areas. The two Western journalists dying is sad in itself, but the real tragedy is not them but the hundreds or even thousands of Homsis who have died, are dying or will die, or who are losing their family members, as this regime will do anything to preserve itself. They are turning this massive city into the Stalingrad, Hue, Sarajevo or Fallujah of 2012.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Not exactly a new development (the indiscriminate target practice into Homs, that it) but yeah, it sucks. Even Syria's supporters are embarrased by the Syrian government's behavior, though, China and Russia for example.

[Os Cangaceiros]

So far the "caveman method" of ending political dissent hasn't had a very good track record of success in this present round of political upheaval in the mid-east, though. Even though it's been employed in literally every country in which protests have erupted, except perhaps Jordan, where the authorities were more intelligent and kept their distance from protesters, instead of going totally apeshit on them like everywhere else.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Ofcourse it is horrible that civilians of Homs die. It is always horrible when civilians, or living things in general, die. But we have truly no idea who is causing more civilian deaths, the government troops or the armed gangs that are patrolling the street.


Probably they both kill many people. We know the government troops have killed innocent civilians. We have all seen the video's. But remember, not every death caused by sniper fire is a death caused by a government sniper. Not every death caused by an explosion is a death caused by a government explosion. Just look at the bombing of a police station and intelligence headquarter in Allepo, claiming 28 lives, including many childrens lives. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9074796/Rebel-FSA-spokesman-claims-Aleppo-bombings.html)


I do not find this a reason to support the armed gangs, or the SFA. The fact that the USA and H. Clinton support the Syrian 'uprising' alone makes me sceptical already. The USA would never support anything that would improve the lives of the people and give them more power.


The fact that the mass media side with the SFA makes me sceptical too. We all know what happened in Lybia, and I'm pretty sure the same thing is happenig in Syria.


Also, how can the unarmed civilians we hear about, utterly destroy tanks? How can they kill over 2000 soldiers and cops? Why would the Lybian 'rebels' and USA side with them? Why would al-Qaeda support the Syrian SFA? (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57376121/al-qaeda-urges-muslims-to-help-syria-rebels/) Why are so many Syrian's in favor of the government if they are killing innocents on purpose? I could go on for a while, but I will stop here.


Let's just say I'm a little bit sceptical regarding the Syrian conflict.

P.S
Just to be clear, I do not support the Syrian government.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Why would al-Qaeda support the Syrian SFA? (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57376121/al-qaeda-urges-muslims-to-help-syria-rebels/)

Just to take issue with this, that doesn't really mean anything. For example Anwar al-Alawki released statements supporting the Arab uprisings and the uprising in Yemen specifically, against the US-backed government there.

Nationalist governments in the middle east like the one in Syria or Iraq under Saddam have been a thorn in the Islamists side for a while, it's not suprising that they'd like to see them overthrown.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Just to take issue with this, that doesn't really mean anything. For example Anwar al-Alawki released statements supporting the Arab uprisings and the uprising in Yemen specifically, against the US-backed government there.

That alone does not mean much, I agree, but it's just that in addition with lots of other things (like the accustation that terrorist take part in the SFA). It makes be just a little but more sceptical.

[Blake's Baby]

Don't worry. If you want to see it as poor little oppressed Syria, menaced by bad ol' Uncle Sam and terrible Jews, and Al Q'aeda, and drug-taking youth (and whatever other crazy shit Gaddhafi was spewing only a few short months ago in a different place but similar context) I'm sure there are plenty of robotic Stalinist mouthpieces who will shout 'western imperialist Zionist World Bank plot!' very loudly to cover the screams of the dying children that the Syrian Army has been shelling.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Not sure wether you're talking to me, but I will answer anyway.

I never said one of those things. I do not see it as little opressed syria and blablabla, I see it as some sort of civil war while on of the two sides is supported by the US and thus by the mass media. I did not mention jews. I did not say 'poor little oppressed Syria' is menaced by Al Qaeda and drug-taking youth.

And what 'crazy shit' are you talking about? Did the US not bomb parts of Libya to rubble? Did they not give weapons, intel, money and support to 'rebels'? Do you say Al Qaeda had nothing to do with the rebels? Are there no banks (some of which have coincedentally Jewish roots/presidents) and oil businesses which have interests in a Lybia run by people who are in favor of the US?

And where are the robotic Stalinist mouthpieces, shouting 'western imperialist Zionist World Bank plot' very loudly to cover the screams of the dying children that the Syrian Army has been shelling? I just can't seem to find them.

I think you're ignorant if you think that the Syrian Army is the only one killing children. Just look at the link about Allepo. Also, can you answer my questions I have asked before?

Screaming there is a plot going on without knowing the details about a situation is dumb. So is screaming that there is no plot without knowing the details.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Criticizing Zionism is one thing, but leave the "Jews" out of it. Antisemitism has been, is, and will forever be garbage analysis. A lot of Bolsheviks and Marxists also have Jewish last names omg I guess the overthrow of the Tzar was all some zionist plot? See where that reasoning heads? In fact many of the most virulent, racist and fanatic "Zionists" are Christians in America

There have been some terrorist attacks against the Syrian state and certainly some atrocities from the FSA, however nothing compared to the bloodshed being brought down on cities and communities from where anti-regime protests originated. It is also obtuse to ignore the fact that state violence against unarmed protesters created the vacuum of legitimacy which the FSA rapidly filled. Violent crackdowns by the bureaucratic, business and military elite lead to (duh) defections by local soldiers more loyal to the communities and the formation of armed resistance groups. That's kind of how insurrections and revolutions work.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Criticizing Zionism is one thing, but leave the "Jews" out of it. Antisemitism has been, is, and will forever be garbage analysis. A lot of Bolsheviks and Marxists also have Jewish last names omg I guess the overthrow of the Tzar was all some zionist plot? See where that reasoning heads? In fact many of the most virulent, racist and fanatic "Zionists" are Christians in America

There have been some terrorist attacks against the Syrian state and certainly some atrocities from the FSA, however nothing compared to the bloodshed being brought down on cities and communities from where anti-regime protests originated. It is also obtuse to ignore the fact that state violence against unarmed protesters created the vacuum of legitimacy which the FSA rapidly filled. Violent crackdowns by the bureaucratic, business and military elite lead to (duh) defections by local soldiers more loyal to the communities and the formation of armed resistance groups. That's kind of how insurrections and revolutions work.


*sight*

I dont have any problems with jews or muslims or hindus or whatever religion. The idea behind religion, yes. Zionism, yes. But not with any particular religion or believers in a religion.

[Blake's Baby]

...Why would al-Qaeda support the Syrian SFA? ....

Yup, you totally didn't say that.



...
Just to be clear, I do not support the Syrian government.

Yes you do. Claiming that there is equivalence between the attacks by the government and attacks by the 'rebels' means diminishing one and magnifying the other. Now, whether there's a moral equivalence is difficult to say, because the 'rebels' are certainly guilty of some killings. But in terms of numbers I can't find any evidence that the anti-Assad forces have inflicted anything like the casualties of the government forces. I mean for fuck's sake they're shelling towns with artillery. You know, like the Tsarists did to Moscow in 1905.

I'm not saying 'there is no plot'. America is certainly very happy to see Syria in trouble. The British and French seem keen for there to be some kind of confrontation (probably felt they war that they - not the US incidently - started in Libya wasn't good value for money and need another one to justify their arms budgets). Turkey seems to be helping the rebels. Israel, well, why wouldn't Israel be happy to see one of its enemies in trouble? Of course the vultures are circling. I'm merely pointing out that saying 'it's all a plot' is, as you say, stupid.

Just to be clear, I don't support the World Bank, the American government, the Israeli government, the French government, the British government, or the Turkish government.

Neither do I support the Syrian government, the Iranian government, the Russian government or the Chinese government.

All of them are enemies of the working class and the only thing that will remove all those corrupt bandits from power is world revolution. Not supporting one gang of murderers against another gang of murderers.

[The Cheshire Cat]

You should have watched the video from the link. Then you would have known I said thay they verbally support them. That is something different than menacing a country.

No I don't. I too do not support the idea of a government.
And we do not know who does the shelling and how much. It could be the Syrian army as well as the defectors in the SFA with mortars. Until video's of the Syrian army shelling the city pop up, we just can't know it for sure. Just like in Libya, where Gadaffi was shelling Benghazi, but never had anyone been able to capture a picture or video about it. It just doesn't help the credibility.

Concerning the numbers of people killed by the SFA, no one really knows I think, but I don't think 2000 soldiers and who knows how many civilians is very exaggerated. Not long ago, I saw another of those 57 people killed messages. It did some research and it appeared it were about 25 civilians, 20 Syrian soldiers and 12 SFA members. I do not remember the exact numbers, but it was something like this. I will search for a link if you will.

And don't forget that the first wave of investigators that were sent to Syria agreed that the Syrian Army was not mass killing civilians. It were armed gangs vs. Syrian army, like many people say. And from the newe investigators, everyone who says the same is accused if corruption and fired.

And I did never say it was all a plot. I said it was some kind of civil war.

[Blake's Baby]

I agree it's some kind of civil war. It seems to have started as peaceful demonstrations and after a brutal crackdown by the military, some soldiers defected and the 'rebellion' came into being.

Now, it's a very simialr situation to Libya where two parts of the same ruling class are fighting each other. One is a baathist government, the other is a heterogenous opposition made up in part of pro-western 'liberals' and in part of Islamists. At least they're the only groups that are ever talked about. The working class seems completely absent from the scene, either organising for or against the government.

All that having been said, I think the weight of evidence is clear that the government has killed far more than the opposition. Does that mnake the opposition 'right'? No, it's still a bourgeois gang of murderers. Does the fact that the USA supports the opposition make Assad's regime 'right'? No, they're still a gang of bourgeois murderers. But more successful murderers than the opposition.

[The Cheshire Cat]

I agree on nearly everything with you. The only difference is that I believe that the previous government of Libya and the current government of Syria are better for the people than the 'rebel' governments, as they (the current on of Syria and the previous of Lybia) have more support amongst the people. We have learned from Lybia that, with the arrival of the new government, things have changed radically. Hundreds of executions amongst Gadaffi supporters and people with a dark skin color, Sharia laws and numerous armed gangs looting the people. And tribal wars, ofcourse. Under Gadaffi, live was way better (free housing, free education, free healthcare, the state was the only one in the world with no debts, etc.)

I do agree with you however that this was also a burgeoisie government, and that is should have been replaced with the dictatorship of the proletariat.

So I rather would have seen that this government would be in control for another decade than the war that is going on now. What is even better and must happen is, ofcourse, a people's revolution.

[Blake's Baby]

The government is better, even though the civil war started because the government decided murdering its own people was a good idea?

That doesn't make sense.

[GoddessCleoLover]

What also fails to make is the notion that we are in a position to tell the Syrian people what is in their best interests. The vast majority of the people there oppose Assad and Syrians are fighting and dying every day to overthrow the fascistic Ba'athist regime. Assad ought to remember what happened to the original fascists, Mussolini and Hitler, and leave before he ends up like them.

[The Cheshire Cat]

The government is better, even though the civil war started because the government decided murdering its own people was a good idea?

That doesn't make sense.

Seriously, where did I say the civial war started because the government decided murdering its own people was a good idea? I never did, you must have understood me wrong. And if it is your point, I disagree with it. There are very few governments who think it's a good idea to start a civil war by murdering it's 'own' people.

And Assad is not a fascist, as far as I know. If you have any links to support your statement that Assad equals Mussolini and Hitler, I would be happy to take a look at them.

And from what I've seen and heard, it seems more likely that the majority of the Syrians does support Assad. Nearly all the fighting is in Homs and surroundings. There are no other war zones. There would be if the vast majority opposed Assad.

I will explain myself for the last time now, because I get the idea that either my english is just bad, or you don't even try to understand me. The only thing you do is attack me on my limited knowledge of english and say weird things, like comparing Assad to hitler and accusing me of antisemitism.

I'd rather see this government in control for another decade, than this bloody civil war. That option is gone however, so this does not matter any longer.

In this civil war, I prefer the current Syrian government, as I'm afraid for the alternative: the SFA and armed gangs.

But in the end, I want all governments gone, as I am a communist. But I do not demand the immediate dissolvement of the Syrian government, as the would give all the power to the SFA and armed gangs.

In the end, the people have to get or take all the power.

I hope this was clear.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Perhaps there ought to be free elections in Syria so that we can find out whether or not Assad has the support of the majority of the Syrian people. I suspect that he has lost what little popular support he ever enjoyed due to his actions during the past year.

[Blake's Baby]

Seriously, where did I say the civial war started because the government decided murdering its own people was a good idea? I never did, you must have understood me wrong. And if it is your point, I disagree with it. There are very few governments who think it's a good idea to start a civil war by murdering it's 'own' people...

I said the civil war started because the government started murdering its own people. Peaceful demonstrations against the government were attacked, some soldiers defected to the opposition in protest, and the civil war began.


...
In this civil war, I prefer the current Syrian government, as I'm afraid for the alternative: the SFA and armed gangs.

But in the end, I want all governments gone, as I am a communist. But I do not demand the immediate dissolvement of the Syrian government, as the would give all the power to the SFA and armed gangs.

In the end, the people have to get or take all the power.

I hope this was clear.

I am afraid of what happens if the government wins just as I am afraid of what happens if the SFA wins. Neither is good for the working class. The Syrian government is an armed gang; I don't see why you 'prefer' that armed gang to the other armed gangs.

[Fennec]

Yes, we should remember Colvin and Ochlik but we should also remember Gilles Jacquier. Both the regime and Saudi-sponsored opposition which hijacked the popular uprising are enemies of the working class and both commit heinous crimes.

[manic expression]

Don't worry. If you want to see it as poor little oppressed Syria, menaced by bad ol' Uncle Sam and terrible Jews, and Al Q'aeda, and drug-taking youth (and whatever other crazy shit Gaddhafi was spewing only a few short months ago in a different place but similar context) I'm sure there are plenty of robotic Stalinist mouthpieces who will shout 'western imperialist Zionist World Bank plot!' very loudly to cover the screams of the dying children that the Syrian Army has been shelling.
Well, the irony is that your dishonest and slanderous misrepresentation (unless, of course, you're incapable of comprehending anti-imperialist arguments) is part of the chorus that is covering the screams of dying human beings that your precious opposition have been bombing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16320129). Oh, but I guess people in Damascus don't count, since they're not part of your mythical "good guy" knight-in-shining-armor rebellion that you and the western media keep throwing confetti at as though it changed things.


I said the civil war started because the government started murdering its own people.I actually wonder if you're capable of writing an entire post that isn't full of simplistic, would-be moralist platitudes.

[Blake's Baby]

Well, the irony is that your dishonest and slanderous misrepresentation (unless, of course, you're incapable of comprehending anti-imperialist arguments) is part of the chorus that is covering the screams of dying human beings that your precious opposition have been bombing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16320129). Oh, but I guess people in Damascus don't count, since they're not part of your mythical "good guy" knight-in-shining-armor rebellion that you and the western media keep throwing confetti at as though it changed things...


Ah, I wondered how long it would be.


...

And where are the robotic Stalinist mouthpieces, shouting 'western imperialist Zionist World Bank plot' very loudly to cover the screams of the dying children that the Syrian Army has been shelling? I just can't seem to find them...


Never fear, the illiterate, lying mouthpieces have arrived!

Of course what manic expression never refers to is that I have already criticised the American government, British government, Isreali government, Turkish government, World Bank, and the opposition in Syria.

But because manic expression is both a troll and a liar, he insists that I love those things.

Sadly, manic expression considers that his lying trollish opinions represent some sort of proletarian politics, instead of the irrelevant, morally-bankrupt and politically repugnant frothings that they actually are.



...
I actually wonder if you're capable of writing an entire post that isn't full of simplistic, would-be moralist platitudes.

And I wonder if you're capable of writing a post that isn't full of shit?

[scarletghoul]

Great news source, OP. I mean, why would anyone doubt the british state media's reporting on this ?

And those journalists were embedded with the terrorists, reporting their version of events unquestioningly, in Libya as well as Syria. For example, the guy took a photo of ntc rats imprisoning a black worker, and captioned it as a gaddafi mercenary (even bourgeois groups like amnesty international have had to admit that the mercenary thing is racist bullshit). These 2 were complicit in murder.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Great news source, OP. I mean, why would anyone doubt the british state media's reporting on this ?

If you don't like that, perhaps you'll find the Russian state media's (http://rt.com/news/homs-conflict-jounalists-crackdown-945/) take more to your liking?


Russia has voiced its support for the two-hour halt to the violence expressing concern for the deteriorating humanitarian situation.

Because we all know how anti-Syria Russia has been lately, right?


And those journalists were embedded with the terrorists, reporting their version of events unquestioningly, in Libya as well as Syria. For example, the guy took a photo of ntc rats imprisoning a black worker, and captioned it as a gaddafi mercenary (even bourgeois groups like amnesty international have had to admit that the mercenary thing is racist bullshit). These 2 were complicit in murder.

That's really rich. So because the journalists were embedded with "terrorists" (I'm glad to see some on the left embracing ruling class sloganeering) they deserved to be killed? Journalists embed themselves with all sorts of scumbags. Journalists interviewed Osama bin Laden; they've interviewed George W. Bush and Barack Obama. They interview the Taliban and FARC and neo-nazis and belligerents all over the globe, that's their goddamn job, in fact decadent bourgeois media recently held an interview with the head asshole himself (http://abcnews.go.com/International/bashar-al-assad-interview-defiant-syrian-president-denies/story?id=15098612). what the fuck are you talking about man.

[manic expression]

Ah, I wondered how long it would be.
Yes, it's annoying that this leftist forum has Marxists on it.


Never fear, the illiterate, lying mouthpieces have arrived!

Of course what manic expression never refers to is that I have already criticised the American government, British government, Isreali government, Turkish government, World Bank, and the opposition in Syria.
:laugh: Your foolishness is only matched by your naivete. As the tragedy in Libya has taught us (although not the likes of you, apparently), those who join the chorus against the enemies of imperialism are effectively lending their voices for imperialist policy. Your opposition to the Syrian state is opposition to Syrian sovereignty, it is to fail to fulfill any communist's responsibility to everywhere frustrate the interests of the ruling class. If you're unable to see that, that is entirely your problem and not mine.

By the way, when you call someone illiterate, it's best you not misspell two words in the proceeding paragraph.


But because manic expression is both a troll and a liar, he insists that I love those things.

Sadly, manic expression considers that his lying trollish opinions represent some sort of proletarian politics, instead of the irrelevant, morally-bankrupt and politically repugnant frothings that they actually are.
Ah, I see, and parroting imperialist rhetoric is "proletarian politics". I'd like to hear more about your "proletarian politics", actually. Do tell.


And I wonder if you're capable of writing a post that isn't full of shit?
If I have to quote your nonsense, then no. :laugh:

[Sir Comradical]

People act like it's not a full on civil war...