KKE Embraces Nazi Intervention in a Strike [Archive]

HEAD ICE

22nd February 2012, 01:40

http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2012-02-21/a-stalinist-welcome-to-a-nazi-intervention-into-a-workers-strike-in-greece

A Stalinist welcome to a Nazi intervention into a workers strike in Greece

The workers of Elliniki Halivourgia (‘Greek Steelworks’) have been on strike for 111 days. Elliniki Halivourgia is a steel factory in Aspropyrgos, an industrial outskirt of Athens. The same firm has another factory in the city of Volos.

The management announced a plan to enforce a 5-hour working day with a subsequent pay cut of 40%. On October, 30 2011 the workers’ general assembly in the factory of Aspropyrgos unanimously rejected the cuts. On the other hand, the trade union factory of Volos accepted the proposals of the company. The management immediately announced the dismissal of 34 workers in Aspropyrgos. In response, the workers decided to go on an indefinite strike and occupied the gates of the factory. Their demands are for rehiring of their fired co-workers and the cancellation of the cuts plan. After a month’s strike the company decided to fire another 16.

The strike is under the control of the factory union but the final decisions are taken by the workers’ assembly. On December 6, 2011 a general 24-hours general strike took place in the local industrial area and on January 17 the General Confederation of Greek Workers (GSEE) called a 24-strike in Atiki (Athens, Piraeus).

The strike is one of the most important in the last few years. However, it remains isolated and the trade union has already accepted the plan of the company and asks for the rehiring or the early retirement of the fired co-workers. Nevertheless, the employer remains adamant.

PAME, the trade union coalition of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) has played a key role, trying to promote their fighting prestige (‘make all Greece into Elliniki Halivourgia’) and using it as a weapon for their trade union and electoral tactics.

On Friday 17 February a group of the notorious fascist party ‘Xrisi Afgi’ (‘Golden Dawn’) visited the factory; they passed unmolested through the gate, took the microphone and made a speech to the strikers expressing their ‘solidarity’ in the presence of some members of the union. Then, the president of the factory trade union welcomed the fascists, saying that ‘all Greece is with us’.

See a full video below.

First you see the Nazis making a speech and then the president welcomes the Nazis. The union’s president, Giorgos Sifonios, is a member of PAME and he was a candidate of the KKE in the district elections in 1998. Until now PAME haven’t given any explanation, and they haven’t tried to dissociate themselves from that event. So, it is justified to assume that the president acted according to party policy. Otherwise, they would have expelled him immediately.

Doing this the Stalinist KKE have brought the fascists into the workers movement. For the time being I can not explain their stance. I suppose that this is due to the active intervention of anarchists in that strike. As a matter of fact, many anarchist groups energetically supported the strikers and expressed their solidarity with them through many actions. As supporters of spontaneity they may idealize such a strike. So, maybe it will be a great discouragement on their part after that event.

‘Golden Dawn’ is a well known fascist group. They started as pure ‘national socialists’ and later they mixed Nazism up with the traditions of the Greek far-right. But, anyway, they are famous as pro-nazi. They are responsible for many attacks against immigrants. Clearly, it is a ‘para state’ group and they have close connections with the police and army. They have a growing influence especially in popular and workers areas and they are expected to win a good percentage (about 3-4%) in the upcoming elections.

A. 2012-02-21

5b8TBnbNoUo

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 01:54

wauw...just wauw :blink:

This is really something. I am definately no fan of the KKE's conduct. Certainly not in the last few months....but this is something entirely different.

I would really like to hear from our Greek comrades on this situation.

Susurrus

22nd February 2012, 02:02

It's like they are purposely choosing to do things that will result in long angry threads on revleft.

Krano

22nd February 2012, 02:19

Not a fan of Anarchists either, but this is unacceptable conduct by the KKE you don't allie with fascism you fight it. They better have a good explanation.

Lisboa

22nd February 2012, 02:23

You can’t generalize a whole party, as big as the KKE because of a dozen mother-fuckers. I don’t have any proof, I didn’t read it anywhere, but I’m sure that 99% of the members of the KKE wouldn’t agree with that, and I’m sure that’s not a decision of the party, but from a few isolated members.

I've been lurking this forum for a long time, and I'm seeing what people are doing with KKE. I think that's probably what provocateurs do when they see a "dangerous" leftist party growing, like the KKE, they try to separate the left. And assuming that the left is the most sectarian shit world has ever known, it’s not that hard to grow discord and hate between the own left. Fucking idiots, sectarianism is killing revolutions for at least 150 years and looks like people keep playing this game over and over again.

I won’t probably post again on the forum because I don’t have much time, but I’m seeing a lot of sectarian shit here lately and it makes me really sad. I was going to sleep but I thought about visiting revleft before going to bed but then I saw this tread, and I didn’t resist. I was avoiding for a long time to create an account here, more than an year, but lately with all this mess in Greece, and all the sectarian posts I’ve seen here about the greek situation I decided to write what I think. As I said, I probably won’t post here again, but that’s just my thoughts about the situation.

Just my opinion.

Искра

22nd February 2012, 02:36

This is a statemant/article of left communist organisation. This whole threat has nothing to do with anarchists.

Ostrinski

22nd February 2012, 02:44

Disgusting. How long will the KKE supporters last until they can't support them anymore?

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 02:47

You can’t generalize a whole party, as big as the KKE because of a dozen mother-fuckers.

Really? You mean you are seriously trying to argue that the party...which has not distanced itself, which has not commented on this event....does NOT keep a tight watch on what is supposed to be one of their propaganda flagships?

Are you seriously arguing this??

I don’t have any proof, I didn’t read it anywhere, but I’m sure that 99% of the members of the KKE wouldn’t agree with that, and I’m sure that’s not a decision of the party, but from a few isolated members.

It is a KKE/PAME official. Simple as that. The party has not intervened. It has not denounced the act. Their last site update about the Greek Steelworkers was on the 21st of this month.

Wether the members agree or not is irrelevant for the fact that neither PAME not KKE issued any disapproving statement nor did they undertake action against the officials who were welcoming Nazi's with open arms and allowing them a platform.

I've been lurking this forum for a long time, and I'm seeing what people are doing with KKE. I think that's probably what provocateurs do when they see a "dangerous" leftist party growing, like the KKE,

Yes....the KKE is dangerous.

For the working class.

They run on a basically social democratic demands platform. They cooperate with the cops...they have throughout their history. They have directly betrayed the working class and other revolutionary groups in their post war pastresulting in the deaths of hundreds if not thousands. They have taken it upon themselves to protect the burgeoisie institutions. And they reject any call for revolution or mass revolt.

This has nothing to do with sectarianism. This has everything to do with analysing their actions and their politics.

they try to separate the left.

That is exactly what the KKE is doing...very goodspot there from you. You are probably not aware of the KKE position on ALL other revolutionary groups and parties in Greece, right? Perhaps you should do some reading. They flat down refuse to work with them. They flatout dismiss everybody who is NOT toeing their line as fascists, agent provocateurs and as dangerous or incompetent.

So BEFORE you start condemning the critics of the KKE policies...you might actually...you know...want to look up the history and positions of the group you are defending.

And assuming that the left is the most sectarian shit world has ever known, it’s not that hard to grow discord and hate between the own left. Fucking idiots, sectarianism is killing revolutions for at least 150 years and looks like people keep playing this game over and over again.

yes...now go tell KKE that....since...you know...they are the ones being the sectarian shitheads. BUt good first post. Nice to know you are totally oblivious to the facts around the KKE and their policies....most of all their position on other revolutionary groups. Good first impression..

The irony.....

Somebody defending one of the most sectarian groups out there....by accusing their critics of sectarianism....:laugh:

I won’t probably post again on the forum because I don’t have much time, but I’m seeing a lot of sectarian shit here lately and it makes me really sad. I was going to sleep but I thought about visiting revleft before going to bed but then I saw this tread, and I didn’t resist. I was avoiding for a long time to create an account here, more than an year, but lately with all this mess in Greece, and all the sectarian posts I’ve seen here about the greek situation I decided to write what I think. As I said, I probably won’t post here again, but that’s just my thoughts about the situation.

Just my opinion.

Good....that means we will probably not see you again. That actually makes me very happy after such a shit first post. Just my opinion.

crazyirish93

22nd February 2012, 02:54

I would expect any member of the KKE/pame who welcomed fascists would be expelled so i am really confused as to what is going on but i highly doubt this was sanctioned by the KKE or PAME for members of the golden dawn to speak but lets see what our greek comrades have to say on this.

Ostrinski

22nd February 2012, 02:56

You can always feel the intensity building up on these threads up until the Greek posters show up.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 02:57

According to contra info news the Golden Dawn members were also carrying a banner and handed out stickers and other material to the workers.

The neo-Nazis did pay a visit to the factory and shared out staple goods where they had put stickers with their name and the national flag, reading their racist motto ‘… to cleanse the place for good ’.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

22nd February 2012, 03:18

So the KKE won't work with "anarcho-fascists" or the other parties of the Left in Greece but they will work with real fascists? :rolleyes:

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 04:07

So the KKE works with cops, calls anarchists "fascists", has a history or murdering communists, and stands in solidarity with actual fascist activists...

When will it have gone far enough? Shouldn't we ban or at least restrict members of such an organization?

KKE supporters, I challenge you to explain this.

Ostrinski

22nd February 2012, 05:51

If this is indeed a systematic countenance by the KKE then it wouldn't be consistent not to restrict them, since fascists themselves are banned. Not that my opinion matters, just pointing out the contradiction.

Grenzer

22nd February 2012, 06:02

Not really surprised. This seems to be just a logical extension of the KKE's opportunism. It'd be great if they started showing some initiative and not doing outrageous things like this, but this seems increasingly unlikely.

It really sucks to see this. As much as some of us, including myself, dislike the KKE; we all are(hopefully) on the same side, but it seems like the KKE is doing their damnedest to fuck things up. Seems like a new CP is needed at the least, but the KKE seems to have a pretty thick stranglehold on the statist progressives at least.

Ostrinski

22nd February 2012, 06:44

Le Socialiste

22nd February 2012, 07:09

The KKE has long served to subvert and stifle the popular opposition of the working-class. As its role becomes increasingly evident in light of its and the government's actions, the workers will naturally come to reject the party. Given that the disagreements between the different bourgeois parties are insignificant (especially when looking at their unity in the face of a radicalizing populace), it isn't that surprising to see fascists intermingling with PASOK/KKE. Whatever suppresses the struggle, right?

bricolage

22nd February 2012, 09:46

This is a statemant/article of left communist organisation. This whole threat has nothing to do with anarchists.
the article has a whole paragraph about anarchists.

Искра

22nd February 2012, 13:14

the article has a whole paragraph about anarchists.
My point was not to turn this into another: anarchists vs. stalinists thread, because that would just serve KKE fans to avoid discussion on criminal opportunism of party they support. I wouldn't write such comment if comrade from Finland didn't bring anarchism to table.

lets see what our greek comrades have to say on this.
I think that this article was written by Greek comrade.

Anyhow, nationality doesn't mean anything. You have a video, so why do you need someone who's Greek to say you what is in that video? Greek posters from this forum know as much as you...

Thirsty Crow

22nd February 2012, 13:35

This absolutely reflects on the kind of party (and union) we're dealing with here. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing what party officials have to say about that, and whether there will be any pressure towards discipllinary actions.

Oh yes, and this: if this situation doesn't make it clear that KKE represents a party of national capital, and that the working class cannot even hope for them to act as a viable political alternative to all of the pro-capitalist parties (and this is even beyond organizations such as IMT), then I don't know what would it take to make that clear.

Sasha

22nd February 2012, 13:58

Die Neue Zeit

22nd February 2012, 14:04

First coalitionism, then working with a group that "started as pure ‘national socialists’ and later they mixed Nazism up with the traditions of the Greek far-right"? Wow. :thumbdown:

Thirsty Crow

22nd February 2012, 14:06

disgusting....
How much you want to bet that given half the chance the KKE would form a "for the protection of our sovereign glorious nation against imperialism" coalition government with at least LAOS and probably GD?
You forgot to add SYRZIA to this fabulous bunch.
But I don't think GD are that likely to enter parliament, since opinion polls give them some 3% (from an article I read on IMT website). Though, I don't know what the election law looks like in Greece, so you might be on to something.

Lisboa

22nd February 2012, 14:23

Really? You mean you are seriously trying to argue that the party...which has not distanced itself, which has not commented on this event....does NOT keep a tight watch on what is supposed to be one of their propaganda flagships?

Does that mean that the KKE is allying with the fascists? Or just that the KKE doesn’t have a strict control over it’s members? Looks like you’re trying to find any reason to criticize the KKE. (and no, don’t say I’m trying to thing any reason to defend KKE :D)

It is a KKE/PAME official. Simple as that. The party has not intervened. It has not denounced the act. Their last site update about the Greek Steelworkers was on the 21st of this month.

If the KKE really “allied” with Golden Dawn as you’re saying, wouldn’t they spread the news? Wouldn’t it be the most reasonable thing to do after allying with another political group?

Doesn’t seem strange to you that KKE didn’t say anything about this? Maybe because that’s not an event to be proud or happy of, and probably because it wasn’t a decision of the party, but from a few isolated members, as I said. For a party that accused many people for being fascists, such as many anarchists (I’m not a blind supporter of KKE, i don’t close my eyes to the sectarian things they did, such as clashing with anarchists in Syntagma), allying with a right-wing party would sound extremely stupid.

Somebody defending one of the most sectarian groups out there....by accusing their critics of sectarianism..

Don’t see me as a KKE fanatic, I probably know as much as you about the greek situation, or even less, but the same way I don’t fully agree with KKE, I don’t fully agree with anarchists. As I said, I don’t defend the KKE blindly, but my opinion is that just because KKE screwed up before, looks like you guys are now trying to amplify every bad thing related to them in an attempt to give the KKE a bad name, just like history did with communism. It’s a fucking party for god’s sake, not everybody shares the same opinion, as long as it hurts, a party as big as the KKE will always have factions and different sides, history told us that, and will always have members, or even officials that don’t have conscience. That’s my point, you can’t generalize a whole fucking party just because of a bunch of idiots. It would be the same thing if I say that Revleft is an anarchist forum, just because most of the moderators I’ve seen until now are anarchists. Doesn’t make any sense right?

That’s what I think. If the KKE really allied with those fascists they would’ve said something. This silence is a good sign (at least for those who still believe in KKE). I don’t know, sometimes I think that you guys really want KKE to be allied with fascists, just to say “see, I was right since the beginning”.

The best move is to wait until KKE says something. If they say that they’re allied with Golden Dawn I’ll shut the fuck up and jump naked through a window.

Good....that means we will probably not see you again. That actually makes me very happy after such a shit first post. Just my opinion.

So much hate in your little heart… Come on comrade, don’t be so rude to newcomers!

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 14:30

This will be worth commenting on if there's more to it than an article on libcom and a video that shows a grand total of 5 people. We should hear the KKE's own words on this before denouncing them. But then again that would demand some measure of perspective and lucidity.

dodger

22nd February 2012, 14:50

Sinister Cultural Marxist

22nd February 2012, 15:36

Thirsty Crow

22nd February 2012, 15:53

Does that mean that the KKE is allying with the fascists? Or just that the KKE doesn’t have a strict control over it’s members? Looks like you’re trying to find any reason to criticize the KKE. (and no, don’t say I’m trying to thing any reason to defend KKE :D)
But you are doing that. Strict control? How about the criteria for becoming a party member, eh? How about some degree of activity from the rank and file in reporting that fascist sympathizers are connected to the party? No? How about some reference to the ideological rhetoric employed by KKE members in the past, smacking of patriotism and similar poisons for the working class? No again? Well, that's a shame, but it speaks an awful lot about KKE.

Doesn’t seem strange to you that KKE didn’t say anything about this? Maybe because that’s not an event to be proud or happy of, and probably because it wasn’t a decision of the party, but from a few isolated members, as I said.Oh yes, isolated members, some insignificant guys. Though, let me remind you that it's the president of the factory trade union that we're dealing with here. Alarm bells should be going off by now for all who hadn't yet grasped the nature of the trade unions in this historical period.

Don’t see me as a KKE fanatic, I probably know as much as you about the greek situation, or even less, but the same way I don’t fully agree with KKE, I don’t fully agree with anarchists.
What anarchists? How did this article relate to anarchists, was it written by them or what?

As I said, I don’t defend the KKE blindly, but my opinion is that just because KKE screwed up before, looks like you guys are now trying to amplify every bad thing related to them in an attempt to give the KKE a bad name, just like history did with communism. It’s a fucking party for god’s sake, not everybody shares the same opinion, as long as it hurts, a party as big as the KKE will always have factions and different sides, history told us that, and will always have members, or even officials that don’t have conscience. That’s my point, you can’t generalize a whole fucking party just because of a bunch of idiots. It would be the same thing if I say that Revleft is an anarchist forum, just because most of the moderators I’ve seen until now are anarchists. Doesn’t make any sense right?
No, you make no sense, that's right.
First of all, it's entirely dishonest to play the gult by association card when mentioning the supposed resemblance between what comrades have to say about KKE and historical anti-communism. I'm not arguing against communism, but against opportunist so called workers' organizations.
About factions, if there's a faction within the party or the union structure sympathetic towards fascists, why aren't they expelled and exposed? Ranting about how big the party is and freedom of discussion and all that jazz is meaningless when it comes to so called communists who harbour such sympathies. At best, they must be kicked out, and at worst, a few bruises and broken bones along the former would do fine (if there really was such a faction, mind you). But you're right in that saying KKE is allied to fascists is simply wrong. We'll have to wait for the elections to see about that.

This silence is a good sign (at least for those who still believe in KKE). I don’t know, sometimes I think that you guys really want KKE to be allied with fascists, just to say “see, I was right since the beginning”.
I can't even imagine how this silence could be interpreted as anything other than spineless hypocrisy. Just say it out loud, we don't care who is a party member as long as they pay lip service to our fabulous "people's power". And I don't want to see the largest political party claiming communism allied to fascists because I'm no enemy of the working class in Greece. And such a move, one that is not totally impossible, would mean death for the working class, both political and probably physical as well.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 16:06

So much hate in your little heart… Come on comrade, don’t be so rude to newcomers!

Let me start by saying that what irked me to no extend is that you, as a newcomer, basically make an extremely insulting first post by accusing the critics of the KKE as sectarians and provocateurs. When you enter the forum with this attitude then I do not see why I should be all lovey dovey or polite.

It is the tone that sets the music.

Does that mean that the KKE is allying with the fascists? Or just that the KKE doesn’t have a strict control over it’s members? Looks like you’re trying to find any reason to criticize the KKE. (and no, don’t say I’m trying to thing any reason to defend KKE :D)

For a democratic socialist party both are equally bad.

It also indicates something else...something which you will llude to further on in your post but which I will adress now. It means part of the communist membership of the party and their dependent and allied organisations do not have any scupules in violating communist ideology and positions by working with fascists and nazi's. That is worrying because it would indicate a breakdown of ideology amongst the members of a vanguardist party. THAT nevers spells anything positive.

If the KKE really “allied” with Golden Dawn as you’re saying, wouldn’t they spread the news? Wouldn’t it be the most reasonable thing to do after allying with another political group?

That entirely depends. What you would expect is that there would be an official party statement either way...either denouncing and distancing or admitting.

It also doesn't matter if it is a real alliance or an alliance of periodic/temporary convenience. There has been a long and established ideology of not giving platform to fascists.

Doesn’t seem strange to you that KKE didn’t say anything about this?

Yes...and that is exactly my point.

Maybe because that’s not an event to be proud or happy of, and probably because it wasn’t a decision of the party, but from a few isolated members, as I said. For a party that accused many people for being fascists, such as many anarchists (I’m not a blind supporter of KKE, i don’t close my eyes to the sectarian things they did, such as clashing with anarchists in Syntagma), allying with a right-wing party would sound extremely stupid.

Mistakes can be made and IF it was an isolated induvidual going against party politics one would expect strong condemnations and statements distancing the party from the event and the praxis.

That has not happened.

What aggravates the situation is that this did not happen in a side-line event. It happened in a flagship event. A major propaganda event for the KKE and PAME from which they hope to get political and strategic benefits. A party priority.

Don’t see me as a KKE fanatic, I probably know as much as you about the greek situation, or even less, but the same way I don’t fully agree with KKE, I don’t fully agree with anarchists. As I said, I don’t defend the KKE blindly, but my opinion is that just because KKE screwed up before, looks like you guys are now trying to amplify every bad thing related to them in an attempt to give the KKE a bad name, just like history did with communism.

I am perfectly aware of the situation in Greece having actively participated in events there as early as 1998 incidentally during a rally in which the KKE actively chased and handed fellow activists over to the police and went out of their way to apprehend them even in the lines of other parties. Severely beating the ones they caught. Over 200 anarchists were caught and handed over for arrest.

This is not the whole story. Right after WWII during the Dekemvriana the KKE assassinated many left-communists, Trotkyists and Anarchists an event which resulted in the treaty of Varkiza and a directive by the KKE NOT to engage or protect people. Resulting in the deaths and rape of hundreds even thousands comrades.

Now it is nice and all what the KKE did during the civil war and the dictatorship but that does not erase their acts of aggression against comrades and their betrayal of the working class years before.

Even after the dictatorship the KKE more often than not sided against comrades...using their youth organisation, their affiliated organisations or their own membership to break up protests...such as the chemistry uprising in 1979 where they followed orders directly from the cops....and offcourse the 1998 situation which I already explained.

And naturally their cooperartion with the cops and their defence of parliament in october last year can not go unmentioned as all particularly worrying activities by the KKE.

Their position in parliamentarist culture, their cooperation with burgeoisie political parties even so far as in governing over a capitalist system....their refual to form a broader radical movement and to cooperate with revolutionaries outside their party and preference to slander these in any way imaginable....

Well...those are simply historical fact.

It’s a fucking party for god’s sake, not everybody shares the same opinion, as long as it hurts, a party as big as the KKE will always have factions and different sides, history told us that, and will always have members, or even officials that don’t have conscience. That’s my point, you can’t generalize a whole fucking party just because of a bunch of idiots. It would be the same thing if I say that Revleft is an anarchist forum, just because most of the moderators I’ve seen until now are anarchists. Doesn’t make any sense right?

It is supposed to be and positions itself as a vanguard party. That means that this can not happen. That means the party is unity.

That’s what I think. If the KKE really allied with those fascists they would’ve said something. This silence is a good sign (at least for those who still believe in KKE). I don’t know, sometimes I think that you guys really want KKE to be allied with fascists, just to say “see, I was right since the beginning”.

Their silence is an awful sign. It condones. Silence does not condemn or distance...it gives silent recognition.

The best move is to wait until KKE says something. If they say that they’re allied with Golden Dawn I’ll shut the fuck up and jump naked through a window.

It is not only about alliance. It is about cooperation, about giving platform to fascists, to allow fascists into the workers movement. THAT is the point.

crazyirish93

22nd February 2012, 16:06

Anyhow, nationality doesn't mean anything. You have a video, so why do you need someone who's Greek to say you what is in that video? Greek posters from this forum know as much as you... id like to hear from a greek member because they might be able to give us more information about this event and its aftermath.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 16:09

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 16:09

It's funny that none of the forum's resident KKE members have tried to give a defense of them yet. As Manic Expression said, it would be kind of nice to get their perspective ... even a Greek perspective as much as anything else, but they've been curiously silent. I guess they are all at rallies today? This reflects really negatively on their party, which makes it surprising that they haven't moved faster to answer the criticism. Perhaps they are just hoping nobody noticed? Or are they only provisionally anti-fash?
In my mind, individual KKE members here are unlikely to know much about it. From the looks of things this seems to be an isolated incident that is being made into something more by leftists who were always quite hostile to the KKE. At present, however, it is precisely our lack of knowledge that should make us doubt those who condemn while holding nothing but uninformed and hasty hypotheses.

Sasha

22nd February 2012, 16:19

Nox

22nd February 2012, 16:32

>KKE
>Reactionary

Nothing new here

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 16:34

Greece has a voting treshhold of 3%. This means a party should get at least 3% of the votes in order to be admittable into parliament.

Right now, as far as I have heard, Golden Dawn is rising in the polls and is currently anywhere between 3 and 5% of the votes....making them allegable for a parliamentary seat in the comming elections in even the lowest poll results. Wether this is in fact going to happen is entirely speculative.

Unfortunately all polls are showing an increase in voter support for GD....so the numbers may rise. Especially after the latest package of austerity measures and the increasingly disasterous economic decline.

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 16:55

HEAD ICE

22nd February 2012, 16:59

The KKE has just in the past day denounced the Golden Dawn intervention in the strike. Even though the incident took place almost a week ago, the KKE/PAME has just issued a denunciation because of the embarrassment this incident has caused. It is obvious that without it, no statement would have ever been issued.

It should be noted that while this maybe an "isolated incident", this didn't take place between some scrubs. The last person to speak in the video is Giorgos Sifonios, who is the President of the trade union that was organized at this factory, and he is a member of the KKE/PAME. He also clearly knew who Golden Dawn were, because he denounces other far-right wing parties and figures who are considered competition by Golden Dawn in his "welcome speech."

The original article, like this update, are originally from email correspondence from a comrade in Greece (hence why it is written in the first person).

Yesterday, the Administration of the Trade Union of Elliniki Halivourgia (Aspropyrgos) issued a disgusting statement on the visit of the Nazis in the factory (under their approval and their welcome of course).

In that text they ‘denounce the attempt of the Golden Dawn and several other groups to provoke, to slander and discredit our heroic struggle’. And they conclude saying that: “We declare that the steel-workers are beyond reach of ‘Golden Dawn’ and several other alleged revolutionaries. The steel-workers are part of the organized class movement, which was and remains the main supporter of their cause. It is no coincidence that all those accused of PAME, inside and outside of Greece, who was from the beginning remains the main supporter of our struggle”.

At the same time, Rizospastis (‘The Radical’), the central organ of KKE, on Tuesday 21 February writes: “‘Golden Dawn’ found the opportunity to stage a provocation against the KKE, the class workers’ movement and the strikers of Elliniki Halivourgia’.

So, these guys brought the Nazis into the factory (they couldn’t dare to do this without their approval), gave them the microphone, applauded and welcomed them, and then they talk about ‘provocation’. At the same time, they clearly identify Nazis cut throats with ‘several other groups’ and ‘several other alleged revolutionaries’, implying the far-leftist and especially many anarchist groups who stood by the strikers and expressed their solidarity from the outset and throughout the period of strike and after 110 days the union leaders welcome Nazis, trying to discourage them.

So the trick is simple: first we bring the Nazis, and then we are waiting for the reactions of the ‘enemies of the Party and the class’ movement’ and thereafter we talk about ‘provocation’ and identify all of them as ‘provocateurs’.

In my opinion, the ‘united front’ between Stalinists and Nazis is not accidental or temporary. The situation in Greece is very serious. I don’t want to play the Pythia, but I think that it is likely to break a massive, violent and uncontrolled social uprising. Riots from December 2008 till now are only a prelude. In that case neither KKE nor anyone else could control that event in order to exhaust it through a loyal and parliamentary context. Because of the low political level and the blind violence, that uprising is prone to bloody state provocations, that the state can use as a pretext in order to justify a brutal suppression and to gain the support of ‘peaceful citizens’. KKE would denounce the whole event as an organized state provocation, giving their approval to the state to intervene (like December 2008). At the same time, Nazi paramilitary squads would collaborate with special police and army forces.

For the time being, the leadership of KKE try to keep their people under control, denouncing whatever stands on their left as ‘provocateurs’. They are afraid especially of their youth, because in 1989, they lost the great majority of their youth organization (KNE), because they formed alongside with other leftists a coalition government with New Democracy. That’s the reason for the violent confrontation outside parliament between KKE and anarchists. The anarchists were the only who could dare to react in practice. So, they rose to the bait of KKE. The confrontation was very violent and there could be deaths. The leadership of KKE succeded in presenting to their membership the anarchists (including all the ‘enemies of the party’) as state provocateurs who tried to kill them.

Anyway.

On these pictures you see the ‘skinhead’ Kasidiaris, who made the speech on the part of Nazis, standing by Giorgos Sifonios (the man with the microphone), president of the trade union, member of PAME.

The full welcome-speech of Sifonios is the following:

‘We have all Greece on our side. We see what happens for example inside the black front of the government, such as PASOK, LAOS, who went along with the government of New Democracy. Today we see very clearly Voridis and Georgiadis, acceding to this front. It’s political games but they want to crush the workers’.

‘Golden Dawn’ is ‘a part of Greece’, of course, and the Nazis are not a part of ‘the black front’ against workers.

Voridis and Georgiadis were leading cadres of the far-rightist LAOS, deputies and members of the cabinet in the last government of Papadimos. When LAOS refused to agree with the last austerity measures of ‘troika’, seeing that they are going to lose many votes, they walked out from the coalition government. But Voridis and Georgiadis refused to vote against the new agreement with troika and they expelled from LAOS. Now they have joined New Democracy.

‘Golden Dawn’ see LAOS as their main competitor, accusing them for being fake-nationalists, and they wait to win a great part of their dissatisfied voters. So, Sifonios tried to raised their prestige.

So, after these further information you can make as many additions and corrections you want.

Best greetings

Crux

22nd February 2012, 17:05

In my mind, individual KKE members here are unlikely to know much about it. From the looks of things this seems to be an isolated incident that is being made into something more by leftists who were always quite hostile to the KKE. At present, however, it is precisely our lack of knowledge that should make us doubt those who condemn while holding nothing but uninformed and hasty hypotheses.
How can you say it is isolated when it is the president of the union in a workplace where the KKE is leading a strike and has indeed used it for propaganda purposes? I have no problem condemning the KKE members present and as long as the KKE leadership does not come out against this, them as well. Or do you think giving platform to fascists this way is "no big deal"? Golden Dawn already have blood on their hands. KKE members welcoming them is an almost incomprehensible amount of betrayal. Or do you disagree?
Edit: The latest post were made while I was writing. This is not KKE condemning what happened, this is KKE claiming there was a "provocation" when they welcomed the fascists and trying ridicolously to associate the Golden Dawn with "other revolutionaries".

Thirsty Crow

22nd February 2012, 17:21

In my mind, individual KKE members here are unlikely to know much about it. From the looks of things this seems to be an isolated incident that is being made into something more by leftists who were always quite hostile to the KKE. At present, however, it is precisely our lack of knowledge that should make us doubt those who condemn while holding nothing but uninformed and hasty hypotheses.
You're wilfully closing your eyes before the reality which is more than ugly. It's amazing how you prefer to engage in cheap straw man arguments about the supposed motivation behind the criticism.

As I've stated, and I'd like to hear your input on that, what does it say about a communist party's policy of admission when a president of the factory union connected to the party exhibits fascist sympathies? What does it say about the rank and file, when no activity towards this man has ever been taken (or did he all of a sudden develop a fetish for the far right?)?

The KKE has just in the past day denounced the Golden Dawn intervention in the strike
Fuck denunciation, I'm interested in action taken against this shit, and whether there'll be any.
And regarding the denunciation, it's amazing how they managed to perceive this incident as provocation from the far right. Your guy, the president of the union, brings them in and all of a sudden it's provocation. Maybe they meant that it was a provocation from the far right within KKE??

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 17:21

The KKE statement doesn't hold up against the video. Still waiting to see what the KKE members have to say, and if maybe the KKE has released some other sort of statement, but otherwise, this looks pretty damning to me.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 17:22

This is the full statement of the KKE in their paper published on 22nd of February on page 18 of 33.

The translation is far from perfect. I don't speak Greek and have to rely on translation tools.

The "friends" of steel and how provoke

Continued provocation against the Communist Party, PAME and the strikers of "Steel Greek." Provocation that began the "Golden Dawn", which he wore his mask and protector of the workers went to Aspropyrgos supposedly support the steel industry.

But it seems that on the occasion of this motion, after it took action and provocation continue to this day, several others and they appear as protectors of workers. This is for those, who from the beginning of the race already talked about the steel "entrenchment and isolation" (Dawn - SYRIZA) and to "strike a standstill" (PLYWOOD - called antexousiastes).

Recall that when they wrote those fine - when the rages began to strike and fight the wave of class solidarity with the strikers - the "Golden Dawn" called the steel industry to accept what is called Manesis and turn the mill with bowed head. Two sides of same coin ...

Well, again running on a parallel course. Let us briefly see what they say in various blogs on the web after the provocation of the "Golden Dawn": that "the tricks Perissos cutthroat in the labor movement." That 'PAME and the Communist Party welcomed Chrysafgites Steel. " That "the Communist Party in Havana makes Golden Dawn".

Still, do not fail to slander and throw mud in the administration of the association and its president G. pipette. And of course, because I miss the March from Lent, yesterday, the newspaper of SYRIZA, Aurora has the following title in a relevant comment: "Let's Golden Dawn?".

He wants to create so seedy connotations and connect the GO class and the trade union movement with the enemies of the workers, the Golden Dawn that fights along with the bosses, against the working people's protests.

But very serious and revealing of the intentions are supposedly friends who care for the steel industry (miraculously this sensitivity for the good of the strikers broke out after the 111th day strike and went there because the Chrysafgites) are some limited references to various blogs even seeking to stop the class solidarity with the strikers who count now 115 days strike and continue their struggle. All those who say and write them from the start of the race of steel were designed to hit this race.

It is they who undermine each class struggle trade union movement. Now use the provocation of the Golden Dawn to pour bile against the KKE and PAME, the association of steel. And mainly affect the unity of the class struggle of the strikers. And do not forget that some forces now write these comments anonymously and branded in October 2011 stood opposite ergatokosmo that flooded the city center and banged furiously to break up the mobilization.

All these require even greater vigilance on the labor class movement. No complacency. To strengthen the class solidarity in the steel industry. And knowing that they are passed ... The workers know what their friends are and who their enemies.

Here is the direct link....if anybody can make a better translation....please do so.

http://www.rizospastis.gr/page.do?publDate=22/2/2012&id=13923&pageNo=18&direction=1

The original text is in spoilers below:

Οι «φίλοι» των χαλυβουργών και πώς προβοκάρουν
Συνεχίζεται η προβοκάτσια σε βάρος του ΚΚΕ, του ΠΑΜΕ και των απεργών της «Ελληνικής Χαλυβουργίας». Προβοκάτσια που ξεκίνησε η «Χρυσή Αυγή», που φόρεσε τη μάσκα του προστάτη των εργαζομένων και πήγε στον Ασπρόπυργο δήθεν για συμπαράσταση στους χαλυβουργούς. Φαίνεται, όμως, πως με αφορμή αυτήν την κίνηση, μετά από αυτήν, ανέλαβαν δράση και συνεχίζουν την προβοκάτσια μέχρι και σήμερα, διάφοροι άλλοι που εμφανίζονται και αυτοί ως προστάτες των εργαζομένων. Πρόκειται για εκείνους, που από τις αρχές κιόλας του αγώνα των χαλυβουργών μιλούσαν για «περιχαράκωση και απομόνωση» (ΑΥΓΗ - ΣΥΡΙΖΑ) και για «απεργία σε τέλμα» (ΚΟΝΤΡΑ - λεγόμενοι αντεξουσιαστές). Θυμίζουμε ότι όταν έγραφαν αυτά τα ωραία - τη στιγμή που ξεκινούσε να φουντώνει ο απεργιακός αγώνας και το κύμα ταξικής αλληλεγγύης προς τους απεργούς - η «Χρυσή Αυγή» καλούσε τους χαλυβουργούς να δεχτούν όσα ζητούσε ο Μάνεσης και να γυρίσουν στο χαλυβουργείο με σκυμμένο το κεφάλι. Δύο όψεις του ίδιου νομίσματος...

Να λοιπόν που και πάλι λειτουργούν με παράλληλη πορεία. Ας δούμε τι λένε επιγραμματικά σε διάφορα blogs στο διαδίκτυο μετά την προβοκάτσια της «Χρυσής Αυγής»: Οτι «ο Περισσός μπάζει μαχαιροβγάλτες στο εργατικό κίνημα». Οτι «ΠΑΜΕ και ΚΚΕ καλωσόρισαν τους Χρυσαυγίτες στη Χαλυβουργία». Οτι «το ΚΚΕ κάνει αβάντα στη Χρυσή Αυγή». Ακόμα, δεν παραλείπουν να συκοφαντήσουν και να ρίξουν λάσπη στη διοίκηση του σωματείου και τον πρόεδρό του Γ. Σιφωνιό. Και βέβαια επειδή δε λείπει ο Μάρτης απ' τη Σαρακοστή, χτες, η εφημερίδα του ΣΥΡΙΖΑ, η ΑΥΓΗ έχει τον εξής τίτλο σε σχετικό σχόλιο: «Πάμε Χρυσή Αυγή;». Θέλει έτσι να δημιουργήσει άθλιους συνειρμούς και να συνδέσει το ΠΑΜΕ και το ταξικό συνδικαλιστικό κίνημα με τους εχθρούς των εργατών, τη Χρυσή Αυγή που πολεμά, μαζί με τα αφεντικά, ενάντια στις εργατικές λαϊκές κινητοποιήσεις.
Ομως, ιδιαίτερα σοβαρές και αποκαλυπτικές των προθέσεων που έχουν οι δήθεν φίλοι που νοιάζονται για τους χαλυβουργούς (ως εκ θαύματος αυτή η ευαισθησία για το καλό των απεργών εκδηλώθηκε μετά την 111η μέρα απεργίας και επειδή πήγαν εκεί οι Χρυσαυγίτες) είναι κάποιες ανώνυμες αναφορές σε διάφορα blogs που ζητούν ακόμα και να σταματήσει η ταξική αλληλεγγύη προς τους απεργούς που μετρούν σήμερα 115 μέρες απεργίας και συνεχίζουν τον αγώνα τους. Ολοι αυτοί που τα λένε και τα γράφουν αυτά από την αρχή του αγώνα των χαλυβουργών είχαν στόχο να χτυπήσουν αυτό τον αγώνα. Είναι αυτοί που υπονομεύουν κάθε αγώνα του ταξικού συνδικαλιστικού κινήματος. Αξιοποιούν τώρα την προβοκάτσια της Χρυσής Αυγής για να χύσουν τη χολή τους ενάντια στο ΚΚΕ και το ΠΑΜΕ, το σωματείο των χαλυβουργών. Και κυρίως να πλήξουν την ταξική ενότητα του αγώνα των απεργών. Και να μην ξεχνάμε ότι κάποιες δυνάμεις που γράφουν τώρα αυτά τα σχόλια ανώνυμα και επώνυμα, τον Οκτώβρη του 2011 στάθηκαν απέναντι από τον εργατόκοσμο που πλημμύρισε το κέντρο της πόλης και τον χτυπούσαν με μανία για να διαλύσουν την κινητοποίηση.

Ολα τα παραπάνω επιβάλλουν ακόμα μεγαλύτερη επαγρύπνηση για το εργατικό ταξικό κίνημα. Κανέναν εφησυχασμό. Να δυναμώσει η ταξική αλληλεγγύη στους χαλυβουργούς. Και να ξέρουν ότι δεν περνάνε αυτά... Οι εργάτες ξέρουν ποιοι είναι οι φίλοι τους και ποιοι οι εχθροί τους.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 17:32

The statement is detached from the video reality we are seeing.

Supposedly GD came under false pretenses. But is was very clear they were GD. GD even stated they handed out stickers and merchandise. So their identities were well known and they were allowed to pass.

KKE now tries to pass this is infiltration and attempts to slander the KKE. Unfortunately for them the video clearly shows the president of the trade union and member of PAME/KKE applauding and thanking GD members.

It does not seem GD is pouring bile against PAME/KKE at all. It appears like PAME officials are welcoming and cooperating actively and passively with GD members.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 17:44

SYRIZA article refered to in KKE statement...written on the 21st....a full day before KKE statement:

Let Golden Dawn?

Date of publication: 21/02/2012
And this happened! Chrysafgites visited the factory last Friday of the Greek steel industry in Eleusis to declare their support for workers who strike out more than 110 days. The visit was the tolerance of the association's president, G. chiffon, strain PAME, who pulled even after chrysafgites, due to those present employees, appearing to accept the support of neo-Nazis. The chrysafgites and distributed foods were labeled "Vote for Golden Dawn xevromisei place."

Recalled that the Golden Dawn had Magnesia draw notice to the owner of the Greek Steel, N. Manessis. Now pretend to stand by the workers. It is astonishing that the union took no notice of the provocative presence of chrysafgiton the factory or the "radicals" Saturday and Sunday mentioned in this unprecedented event. Unlike the president, who was in contact with him the "Dawn", refused to explain his attitude, which reportedly has caused concern among the steel strikers.

Bear in mind that the KKE party and the French Le Pen were closely intertwined, of course, against the French Communist Party?

http://www.avgi.gr/ArticleActionshow.action?articleID=671106

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 17:47

A fantastic article about the whole situation 3 days ago:
(http://www.aformi.gr/2012/02/%CE%B7-%CF%87%CF%81%CF%85%CF%83%CE%AE-%CE%B1%CF%85%CE%B3%CE%AE-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%80%CE%BB%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%81%CF%8C-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%BB%CF%85%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%81/)

The attack made an announcement of the Golden Dawn a few weeks ago in the steel strikers probably not surprised no one in the left. It was a move entirely consistent with how the left perceives the role of fascism and fascist political organizations. The announcement of the Golden Dawn, "revealed" this role and this policy.

The day before yesterday but visit "sympathy" of the Golden Dawn in the steel strike was a shock to all the left and for the entire labor movement. Even more shocking was the "warm" reception of the Golden Dawn by the Board of the Association of Steel and the welcome from the president of the association. Apart from the shock, resulting also some critical questions: Why does the Board of the association welcomed the Golden Dawn? Knew PAME and the Communist Party to make this visit? And if knew why they gave the green light? Let's try to think the most reasonable answers to these questions.

It is most unlikely that the Golden Dawn decided to send a small team of executives in an industrial action in a workplace dominated by the left, without first having obtained, show that if there would not lintsaroun workers (as they should, Besides, to do). So prior to telephone contact between the Golden Dawn and the association and the association's assurance that the fascists will not be at risk, if they occur in the steel industry.

It is also highly unlikely, the corporation which is controlled by the PAME, took to this very serious political decision alone, without consulting the PAME and the KKE - unless the Board does not communicate with the Greek political reality and does not know What is the Golden Dawn. But even if the Board had been living on Mars, 110 days the strike has forced to land in the brutal reality of class struggle in Greece and thus to learn what the Golden Dawn. So logically, the Board of the association to consult the GO, which gave approval to visit the most extreme fascist organization in the country the steel strikers.

But why all this happened (which of course are strong probabilities and not certainties)? Let's try to detect the possible reasons that may have each of these protagonists of this lamentable collusion.

For the Board of the association (which, we repeat, is controlled by the PAME) visit the Golden Dawn, perhaps assessed as a possible spread of solidarity (we can not know the level perceptual abilities of members of the association). Perhaps they thought, "since even the fascists support us, this means that our struggle enjoys broad support that goes beyond the framework of the Left." It also said the president of the club thanks to placement (what humiliation! The president of the association's most significant strike in Greece, licking a fascist ...). These people, presidents and secretaries of unions controlled by the PAME have trained for years to think about the class struggle through the lens of vulgar bourgeois parliamentary logic: get as many votes the party, the more it will grow in its strength in parliament and assist the working class. Thus, the vote of every fighter and every fighter is equated with the vote of every nationalist and racist idiot who asks the police to shoot the young men and women "who are broken." At the level of industrial action and solidarity, the "help" of the Golden Dawn is just one element that is added to a series of factors which appear to be similar. What do the solidarity committees and unions, who stand by the strike of steel? Usually gather food for the strikers (milk etc). What did the Golden Dawn? Went a few milk cans to the strikers. "E for five milk boxes, it can do so on?" Could tell us the president of the association. But when the union leadership of a trade union to accept the humiliating the fascists for five milk boxes, then there is a very big problem ...

In fact, regardless of political perception skills of the trade union leadership, the decision to allow the Golden Dawn to visit the strikers can not be taken by the Board itself of the union, but by the PAME (the KKE). So it was a political decision, which reports on political considerations having to do with the race management of the steel. And from this perspective two things may mean (alternatively or simultaneously) this decision:

Around the steel strike has established a nationwide network and international labor solidarity, of the largest and most powerful that have existed in recent years. This network of solidarity has stimulated the courage of the strikers and has contributed to the continuation of the strike. Solidarity for this fight has dissolved dams sectarianism and isolationism which for decades has set up the Communist Party around their workplaces under its control. Within the conditions of intense class polarization prevailing in the country and the same as the steel industry understand that the struggle they give are very tough, PAME dams broke. Steel companies understand that to win, was forced to accept the support offered from the first time the whole movement and began to participate in events organized solidarity that the world of movement. It also began to think that the movement does not rest consists of agents provocateurs, etc. sold out, and begin to appreciate the fighters and fighters who are setting up these networks of solidarity (leftists, extreme left, anarchists and "simple" world of the working class not belongs to the PAME). Simultaneously, this emerging understanding of the whole basis of PAME and the question becomes, that "if all those people can be mobilized in sufficient size to support the strike of the steel, then why can not we work together in movement? "The way in which the KKE and PAME attempted to address these questions, it was the defamation of clubs and organizations that supported the strike of the steel. Indicatively, slander of PAME against the operations of West Attica ELME A 1 and identification of the effort to ... Against the Golden Dawn 2 . But the mudslinging Rizospastis unable to prevent either the labor movement to support the steel industry, nor the steel industry to receive this support. And most could not evade the question of the unity of the labor movement, which puts the base of the Communist Party PAME (after all the readers of Rizospastis have come to believe half at most of the complaints that their newspaper is waging against the unions the labor movement).

The decision to go to allow the Golden Dawn to visit the strikers, is an attempt to answer the demand for unity made by the workers who are members or are affected by PAME. With this decision the PAME (the KKE) attempts to give the following answer to those who from the world rely on the solidarity of the steel industry, to seek unity with the other forces of the movement: "seek unity of action with those who support the steel strike, and the Golden Dawn supports this strike. Do we seek unity with the Golden Dawn? When others are doing something different from what he did and the Golden Dawn. "

But this decision of the GO / KKE is not only in his own world, but in this whole world opened in an exemplary way to organize solidarity strike in the steel. He tried to infect them, equating the Golden Dawn to show them that if they insist on supporting the steel and to visit, you are in the same room with the Golden Dawn, will share with milk and sokofretes will be forced to enter the same frame a picture in which the foreground will look Chrysafgitis next to the president of the association (it is worth mentioning that while the Board of the Association warmly welcomed the Golden Dawn, giving her the right to appeal to the strikers, has systematically banned members left or far left organizations to talk to steel). The extent of support and solidarity has become an obstacle for the handling of PAME and wants to reduce or even stop it. The strike has attracted much and victory depends on the escalation of the struggle, which escalation PAME has the ability to take on alone. To escalate this struggle ordination and unity with other trade unions and organizations not affiliated PAME. PAME does not know how to continue the strike and therefore looking for ways to close it. But it should not be overlooked and the pressures on the go from the bourgeoisie, to synetistei and stop a strike that the upturn in the labor movement (the insurrectionary mobilization of February 12), can acquire a new, very more combative dynamic. To succeed, however, the're going to close this strike, should not prevent the solidarity manifested, to lead to isolation, to be able to claim towards the steel industry: "We ourselves do not support us no, we can not keep more, the conditions are not suitable even for large battles "(this is the argument by which the Communist Party holds the working base away from labor battles given in recent years).

The GO / Communist Party allowed the Golden Dawn to visit the strikers, to create confusion and frustration to the fighters and fighters mobilized and supported the strike of the steel. He knows that a large part of the inclusive believes that fascism is a risk that must be addressed directly (as opposed to the Communist Party that believes that the biggest danger comes from the other organizations of the movement). What we tried to do was to cause the wrath of this world, believing that it will provoke an emotional reaction (especially from the youth supporting the strikers), which will neutralize the actions of solidarity. Quite simply, he tried to create an image of "good relations" with the strikers the Golden Dawn, so that, in the eyes of solidarity to the strikers to identify the Golden Dawn. PAME before attempting to close the strike, trying to be dirty.

The dirt of the Golden Dawn flown PAME and the Board of the association in the face of the strikers can not lasposei the heroic struggle, nor to undermine the importance of this strike, which should all support and all our power to defeat . Therefore the actions of solidarity should be reinforced, as an answer to baseness committed PAME trade union leadership and the steel. The strike of the steel must win and we must help everyone and all that. But we can not close our eyes towards the way in which the association's board and manage the PAME strike. Because if the Board so far seemed incapable of union to organize and lead this struggle to victory, after aftoexeftelismo toward the Golden Dawn, proved dangerous. So we have to say our opinion on the steel strikers: one of the conditions for the victory of the strike is to get rid of this union leadership and to set up a strike committee that will direct and control daily. Of course it is difficult "to change one horse as it crosses a river," but unfortunately, if the horse has died in the middle of the river, one should abandon it, even if you have to swim to reach the shore. Otherwise there is a risk the rotten corpse to convey the rot and healthy body.

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 18:24

To paraphrase the late Richard Pryor, are you going to believe KKE or your lying eyes? It is obvious to anyone other than a gullible child that KKE is lying about the particulars of this incident in order to save face. Whatever the deficiencies of SYRIZA, I have to believe that they would never engage in such rotten opportunism as did the KKE.

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 18:31

funny how every anarchists no matter what tendency they belong too are always held accountable for every single broken window about the world over yet how such a disgraceful event in a actual party with actual rigorous hierarchal discipline this can be a "isolated incident"...

You can't have it both ways dear...
I do not consider any anarchist a supporter of black bloc tactics unless they so name themselves.

How can you say it is isolated when it is the president of the union in a workplace where the KKE is leading a strike and has indeed used it for propaganda purposes? I have no problem condemning the KKE members present and as long as the KKE leadership does not come out against this, them as well. Or do you think giving platform to fascists this way is "no big deal"? Golden Dawn already have blood on their hands. KKE members welcoming them is an almost incomprehensible amount of betrayal. Or do you disagree?
It is inherently isolated in that it has, as far as we can tell, not been replicated at any other place at any other time. If this were a matter of the KKE going down a certain road then surely it would not be limited to 5 people and a microphone.

You're wilfully closing your eyes before the reality which is more than ugly. It's amazing how you prefer to engage in cheap straw man arguments about the supposed motivation behind the criticism.

As I've stated, and I'd like to hear your input on that, what does it say about a communist party's policy of admission when a president of the factory union connected to the party exhibits fascist sympathies? What does it say about the rank and file, when no activity towards this man has ever been taken (or did he all of a sudden develop a fetish for the far right?)?
It says that this is a single incident that is not at all the slightest of justifications for the claims that some are leveling against the KKE. The only straw man argument here is that this one instance defines the whole of the KKE, one of the largest working-class parties in all of Europe.

And while I cannot know the motivation behind the criticisms here, I can know that many of them are essentially without basis, and seem to be

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 18:37

THe incident is not limited to 5 people and a single microphone.

The GD delegation was 12 members strong. It was allowed not only a platform for speech but was allowed an apportunity to hand out goods and products which were clearly marked as comming from GD.

The fact that GD members were even allowed to go safely into a PAME/KKE dominated event is remarkable. Like the larger article I posted states. To think that this happened unannounced is even more unbelievable.

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 18:40

The KKE explanation is generally unbelievable unless one engages in a willing suspension of one's disbelief.

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 18:43

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 19:02

Decolonize The Left

22nd February 2012, 19:03

Dude, if the KKK came into a CPA strike and
a) were allowed to cross the picket line
b) were allowed to speak
c) were allowed to distribute propaganda

What the fuck do you think would happen? People would say, "oh, well, you know, it was just some dudes who made a mistake... it's cool and all"? No, people would say the CPA is a fascist-sympathizing organization unworthy of any support and an enemy of the working-class of the world.

- August

Lisboa

22nd February 2012, 19:03

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 19:10

Decolonize The Left

22nd February 2012, 19:13

@AugustWest: sure, some might have that reaction, but I'm not saying it's cool, I'm saying it's not something that should be made into a blanket accusation against an entire party. By the same token, if we find out that someone connected to an organization let a primitivist speak at a rally it doesn't make the organization primitivist-sympathizing.

That's true, and I'm not trying to say that every member of the KKE is a fascist-sympathizer (a claim which is obviously false).

What I'm saying is that the guy who let them in, who gave them a mic, let them speak, and let them hand out their shit should be openly kicked out of the party. Immediately. Like, the day after this happened. There shouldn't be a statement a week later saying 'our bad.' There shouldn't be any sweeping under the rug. Kick the fascist-sympathizer out of the party and keep your party in tact. Since this didn't happen, and it probably won't, you can see how this throws a terrible light on the party as a whole.

Yeah it was one dude who did this, but the whole party is tacitly endorsing it by doing nothing.

- August

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 19:16

@hindsight20/20: Ah, 12 people and a microphone and handouts. Even still it is quite insufficient to draw any excited conclusions about the KKE itself from this one incident. Further, that it was unannounced seems to very strongly suggest that this was an isolated decision and not party policy.

As I said...this didn't happen unannounced. To believe that 12 known members of GD would walk into PAME/KKE dominated situation without first having gotten guarantees for their safety is ludicrous. And to allow those 12 to hand out goods accompanied by party propaganda to the striking workers....that is just wauw.

What you are suggesting here is that PAME/KKE have no control over union officials and their own high ranking members. That is worrying in its own right. This means that PAME/KKE high rankning members are not subscribing to party ideology.

This basically means neither PAME nor KKE can be trusted in their role as a vanguardist organisation because apparantly members in high positions think it is perfectly ok to allow a platform for Nazi's and fascists within working class organisations and assemblies.

And what is more...KKE/PAME are not willing to expel or denounce the act of its member itself. Rather they try to pass this off as an attempt to provoke and slander the party by external groups, including SYRIZA. This should have your alarm bells ringing loud and clear.

A party which does not unambiguously distance itself from members who act contrary to communist ideology and rather use propaganda against others to swipe the event or incident under the carpet burrying it on page 18 a week after the event is never to be trusted. Not ideologically and not in its self subscribed role as a revolutionary group.

Now; this, as you call it "incident", is not a stand alone event. It comes in a long line of questionable actions dating back as far as the 44-46 era. So as "incidents" go this is not so very isolated...and we do seem to have an awful lot of them.

What is more likely is that there is opportunism at play here over the backs of the working class. KKE/PAME only released a statement when other groups widely condemned the situation. Which, again, is worrying. Apparantly the party had no wish to correct the situation on its own. Neither being proactive or reactive in correcting such "incidents" to provide party political guide lines for members (...as if they should be necessary on the cooperating with fascists). While their reaction makes it perfectly clear they were well aware of the "incident".

Now one could argue that they didn't want to make mountains out of anthils, and that would have been a correct position, if it weren't for the fact that the striking workers were exposed to some very questionable propaganda which is running contrary to real communist interests and objectives. At the very least PAME/KKE should have organised an event correcting the speech and give party opinion and policy statements to the workers. Now the message is ambiguous.

Now all of this plays against the background not of a side line event. But of a main event. As I repeatedly stated the strike is considered a major event and forms an example to many other strikes, occupations and events. So to let this slip is not something which is done on accident and to believe KKE/PAME are not stringently monitoring the event is unbelievable (not to mention this would be having other repercussions)

Either way we can draw ample conclusions from this about PAME/KKE.

Crux

22nd February 2012, 19:17

@cmoney: yes, very bothered, and I think it needs to be addressed immediately. Still, we should keep this in perspective, if it were KKE policy it wouldn't have happened only once.

@AugustWest: sure, some might have that reaction, but I'm not saying it's cool, I'm saying it's not something that should be made into a blanket accusation against an entire party. By the same token, if we find out that someone connected to an organization let a primitivist speak at a rally it doesn't make the organization primitivist-sympathizing.
You seem extremely bothered. In fact so bothered that at every turn you feel the need to claim this is an "isolated" event. Who says it has only happened once? Does it matter? They have as you have seen already adressed it. You have seen the same video as the rest of us, but perhaps with your special perception you see the "provocation" the KKE claimed happened, for I do not. They are effectively covering for themselves. This should speak volumes to you. But perhaps not.

Except that's not "by the same token". And you're not trying to keep things in perspective you are trying to whitewash. As you yourself have noted those who have criticized the KKE in this thread have criticized them before, on other issues as well.

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 19:19

@cmoney: yes, very bothered, and I think it needs to be addressed immediately. Still, we should keep this in perspective, if it were KKE policy it wouldn't have happened only once.

@AugustWest: sure, some might have that reaction, but I'm not saying it's cool, I'm saying it's not something that should be made into a blanket accusation against an entire party. By the same token, if we find out that someone connected to an organization let a primitivist speak at a rally it doesn't make the organization primitivist-sympathizing.

Well I can say, if a fascist was allowed to speak at an SPUSA event, back when I was in the SP, I would've done something, immediately, in response to that. Something like, I dunno, punching that dude in the mouth?

It reminds me of an IWW organizing meeting, and somebody who was interested in starting an IWW shop at their workplace asked "what if there is a nazi that we work with, should we try to organize them, what should we do?", my response, "drop a fucking safe on his head".

The only acceptable response from the KKE ought to be to purge all the officers in the workplace, and thoroughly investigate that branch to weed out any other potential fascist sympathizers.

PhoenixAsh

22nd February 2012, 19:22

Lisboa

22nd February 2012, 20:39

I completely agree with this.

One side note...KKE did not release a statement saying "our bad" they released a statement saying it was provocation and bile throwing by others against them. And it denounced the GD as enemies of the working class (which...admittedly is positive). But so far they have not had any form of self criticism. They simply said they were the victims.

It sounds to me that KKE doesn’t want to admit that it was made by a few members. They prefer to say that it was provocation or something like that rather than saying that it was a member’s fault. For me, if KKE is wrong on this situation is to not admit that it was a member’s fault and to not admit that there are some rotten apples on their lines.

That’s obviously that all this situation was made without KKE’s members concern and authorization, so I don’t see why KKE should launch an article apologizing for “allying with fascism”. Sounds more properly to me an article apologizing for the behavior of the members responsible for that and explaining the situation.

And weren’t they the victims? Some shitheads decide to let the fascists speak and the whole party gets a bad name for it. How can’t the KKE be the victim on THIS event?

Delenda Carthago

22nd February 2012, 20:40

I really have no intence of interfere about Greece anymore, since there are so many people that have clearly a better view on how things are going on here, but this is superfucked, even for Revleft. Insulting maybe the most radical and class consciousness strike in Greece the last decade, because of the provokation of the nazis, just because some ultra-revolutionary nobodies want to attack KKE.

Some facts that you should know before you open your mouths about the class heros of Halyvourgia:

A. There are 400 workers striking in the plant. Only one of them is in PAME. The president of the union. The union is being helped by PAME since day one(anarchists remembered the thing after 40 days of strike and all they have done is... having parties to gather money for the workers), but does not take descisions about the strike. The rest of the workers used to be really apolitical. As the president of the union* said during the first days of the strike "Two years ago, PAME couldnt even pass outside of the plant" and now they are declaring the continuation of the strike in the name of "the pride of our class".

B. The day that the nazis got in the factory, it was the first day that there were 50 votes against the continuation of the strike. That came as a result of basicaly two issues. First, it was a result of the continuation of work in the other plant of the company in Volos, double shift, so they cover the production not produced by the Eleusina plant. The second one is that they are fighting to keep the wage at 800 euros(the previous minimum wage), but in the meantime the new Mnemonium last week lowered the minimum wage at the standarts that the owner of the company wanted to bring theirs, 400 euros.

C. At that day, all of the sudden, the GD neonazi scums that had turned against the strike since day one, came by the dozen to claim their solidarity with the strike. Their excuse for the reason that took them more than 100 days to do so, was that they were working all that time. The whole thing stinks of provocation. The nazis were not there to be in solidarity with the workers, they were there to tear it apart.

D. KKE had no reason to announce anything, since the strike is done by the worker's union, not KKE. And the union made a statement about the provocation of the nazis, claiming that the video gave a false impresion, since they were booed by the workers and their stuff was not touched.

E. That was a big wave of attack against the workers made by anarchists and some leftist parties. The most funny thing is that the same groups were claiming all this time that the strike is being done by the union, not KKE, but in the first problem all of them were attacking KKE like it was a party's descision. It was funny that when it came to anarchists, some of them were even renouncing class struggle in general!!! This went not unoticed by the workers, and they puted them in their place in their announcement.

To me, what happened after the incident, and it is still happening in here, is ten times more discusting than what happened in the plant. People that have NO idea how does a strike like that(in a country like today's Greece) is like, making their easy ass critic like they are somehow better.Me, the most I have striked in my life is 2 days. I have NO idea what a struggle like that looks like and I have NO intention of attacking people that are on a strike for more than 110 days claiming class pride, trying to spread the word in other factories too and to equate them with nazis from my chair just to pass my politics is filthy. So either all of you attacking the workers are idiots, or scums.

Since I have seen this play before, I know the kind of attacks I am going to receive next. I will try to resist even looking the thread after this post just to avoid this. I would have stayed completely the fuck out of all this section of the forum, since I am really not interested anymore in feeding people's arm-chair riot porn taste, but having these workers insulted just to justify your anti-KKE menace is just too much.

*who, by the way has gone deaf by working in the plant, and even he could take advantage of his position as a syndicalist and not work, he remains working next to every other worker.

Искра

22nd February 2012, 20:52

So either all of you attacking the workers are idiots, or scums.

Why so hysterical?

Os Cangaceiros

22nd February 2012, 20:58

I haven't seen anyone really issue a blanket condemnation of the workers and their strike. :confused:

Those people who knew that the people attending the event were Golden Dawn folks, a real pack of d-bags if there ever was one, should've took that into consideration before allowing them to speak at their event. Simple as. At the very least it represents a serious breach of "revolutionary disclipline" for the KKE, an organization which I presume puts a good deal of value on that concept.

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 20:58

Lol attackgr, your post doesn't even merit a response because its all one giant false accusation. Nobody here has said anything about the workers on strike at the plant.

The video clearly shows a high ranking KKE/PAME official enthusiastically sharing a platform with nazis. KKE has not condemned this, they've pushed some bullshit about how they are some how the victims of some sort of provocation.

Crux

22nd February 2012, 21:01

Omsk

22nd February 2012, 21:13

If they really organized and welcomed the ultra-right trash,than - they are a shame.

I want concrete proof that the party leadership somehow contacted/allied with the Nazis,however,it still is possible that the Nazis tried to make some kind of a provocation.

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 21:17

KKE is in full cover-up and damage control mode. I seriously doubt that concrete proof about anything is forthcoming from either Golden Dawn or KKE.

Искра

22nd February 2012, 21:38

KKE is in full cover-up and damage control mode. I seriously doubt that concrete proof about anything is forthcoming from either Golden Dawn or KKE.
I doubt that KKE cares... they only want to win some parliament seats. :rolleyes:

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 21:59

After this scandal I wouldn't be surprised if SRYIZA obtains more seats than KKE.

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 22:01

After this scandal I wouldn't be surprised if SRYIZA obtains more seats than KKE.

Based on my interactions on here with KKE members/supporters, I don't think there is a very vibrant political culture in the KKE, I get the impression that the membership is in lock step with the party, and not interested in dissent within.

GoddessCleoLover

22nd February 2012, 22:04

I agree, and that is a poor electoral strategy as well as totally lacking as a revolutionary strategy.

manic expression

22nd February 2012, 22:08

That's true, and I'm not trying to say that every member of the KKE is a fascist-sympathizer (a claim which is obviously false).

What I'm saying is that the guy who let them in, who gave them a mic, let them speak, and let them hand out their shit should be openly kicked out of the party. Immediately. Like, the day after this happened. There shouldn't be a statement a week later saying 'our bad.' There shouldn't be any sweeping under the rug. Kick the fascist-sympathizer out of the party and keep your party in tact. Since this didn't happen, and it probably won't, you can see how this throws a terrible light on the party as a whole.

Yeah it was one dude who did this, but the whole party is tacitly endorsing it by doing nothing.

- August
I don't at all disagree...but I suspect that the KKE would want to figure this out behind closed doors. Remember that in-party discussion can be very fierce, there's a good chance the person responsible is being chewed out right now in front of the whole party membership. It isn't what I would do in the same situation but it doesn't mean they're tacitly endorsing it IMO.

Well I can say, if a fascist was allowed to speak at an SPUSA event, back when I was in the SP, I would've done something, immediately, in response to that. Something like, I dunno, punching that dude in the mouth?

It reminds me of an IWW organizing meeting, and somebody who was interested in starting an IWW shop at their workplace asked "what if there is a nazi that we work with, should we try to organize them, what should we do?", my response, "drop a fucking safe on his head".

The only acceptable response from the KKE ought to be to purge all the officers in the workplace, and thoroughly investigate that branch to weed out any other potential fascist sympathizers.
Again I don't disagree...but who's to say they aren't thoroughly investigating it right now? In some ways if they just ejected the entire lot of them they'd have a lot less ability to figure out why this happened and how they can prevent it happening elsewhere.

You seem extremely bothered. In fact so bothered that at every turn you feel the need to claim this is an "isolated" event. Who says it has only happened once? Does it matter? They have as you have seen already adressed it. You have seen the same video as the rest of us, but perhaps with your special perception you see the "provocation" the KKE claimed happened, for I do not. They are effectively covering for themselves. This should speak volumes to you. But perhaps not.

Except that's not "by the same token". And you're not trying to keep things in perspective you are trying to whitewash. As you yourself have noted those who have criticized the KKE in this thread have criticized them before, on other issues as well.
Um, I say it seems as though it only happened once because there's no indication otherwise. Materialists usually try to deal with facts.

Yes, it does matter if it's an isolated incident. It matters a great deal when it comes to the question of how this reflects on the party as a whole.

They released a statement, but I expect there to be other steps to follow.

I'm not trying to whitewash anything, I'm making a comparison to illustrate the idea that the actions of a few people associated with a group does not necessarily define that group. I trust you can follow this logic.

Ravachol

22nd February 2012, 22:44

This is both hilarious and tragic at the same time. A party which spends most of it's time denouncing everybody and everything not under the control of it's social steamvent as 'fascists' and 'provocateurs' or at best accusing them of 'letting the known-unknowns' and 'nazis' in their blocks, now has as it's only defense "it's an isolated incident", "we didn't know they were nazis"? (Though apparently they recognized everybody during the confrontations of the 20th as ' known fascists')

No, when I see 5 buff dudes with shaved heads, sunglasses, black fightinggloves and boxes full of blue-white propaganda material approaching, my first thoughts are "Ah, the workers' movement is here!" :rolleyes:

Honestly anyone defending this is simply too absorbed in the crybaby dogmatism of "but but they're our sister-party, they're the Stalinist vanguard we've always hoped for!" boo-fucking-hoo.

Ele'ill

22nd February 2012, 22:49

Good posts so far just wanted to repost the point that you'd think we would have seen the KKE absolutely reeling from this regardless if it was an isolated incident. We haven't and that's kind of a really big deal.

#FF0000

22nd February 2012, 22:59

'come on guys they were only kicking it with nazis this one time lets have some perspective'

jesus fucking christ you people.

Os Cangaceiros

22nd February 2012, 23:08

No, when I see 5 buff dudes with shaved heads, sunglasses, black fightinggloves and boxes full of blue-white propaganda material approaching, my first thoughts are "Ah, the workers' movement is here!" :rolleyes:

Hahaha that's exactly what I thought when I watched the video. Like, if you were to show me that video with absolutely no background beforehand, I would've instantly thought, hmm, that guy with the shaved head and the aviator sunglasses sure looks like a far-right bonehead to me. I mean, I don't like to stereotype people based on appearances alone, but cmon now.

Decolonize The Left

22nd February 2012, 23:09

Искра

22nd February 2012, 23:22

Ravachol[/B]]No, when I see 5 buff dudes with shaved heads, sunglasses, black fightinggloves and boxes full of blue-white propaganda material approaching, my first thoughts are "Ah, the workers' movement is here!"

Maybe they tought that this is porn actors or body builders union, or something :D

This is the best post ever :lol:

Delenda Carthago

22nd February 2012, 23:33

The Douche

22nd February 2012, 23:35

I guess I dont know any better than keep participating in this thread.Whathehell.

Again some points to clear some lies out.

A. The guy in the video is not, of course, a "big time member" of KKE, he is the president of the union. And this is why he was there. No KKE members had any job to be there with that identity. I know that many of you know strikes only by the books, but they are not being done by political parties, but by unions and syndicates. Doesnt matter what your political views are, thats something different. Specially in the syndicalist model of Greece. So all y all that put out the "we are not accusing the workers, we are accusing KKE" thing, you are lying. This was not a KKE thing,that was not KKE over there, this was a union thing. And since you have to blaim someone other than the owner of the company for that provocation, that means you have a problem with the workers. Period.

B. KKE has proven in the past its stance against the nazis. For example, the day before the fight with the anarchists in Octomber, the day that it was the bigger demo, 50 GD maggots had filled the whole demonstration area with leaflets. And it was the guard of PAME that kicked them out of Syntagma sq. that day. Also, there is no reason in the world why a party would help another party. Even if KKE had no problem at all with GD(which by the way, not even anarchists in Greece are saying), why would they help them join something like that and share the credit?

C. Last but not least, to the guys having a good laugh that the image did not made them think of workers movement, thats too bad. Because this one person is more workers movement than all of us internet lefties.

Is the guy in the video not an officer in PAME?

Искра

22nd February 2012, 23:35

When you tape shit politics of KKE members they are not KKE members anymore... :lol:

Ele'ill

22nd February 2012, 23:44

When you tape shit politics of KKE members they are not KKE members anymore... :lol:

Let's hope so.

Lisboa

22nd February 2012, 23:45

And they keep generalizing a whole party just because a single member.

Ohhh boy.... :thumbup1:

Welshy

22nd February 2012, 23:45

Delenda Carthago

22nd February 2012, 23:48

Is the guy in the video not an officer in PAME?
An officer? He is the president of the union(not even the syndicate of the companies employes) that supports PAME. But he is the only one in the 400 workers, and trust me when I say that he does not make descisions on himself. Everything they do, all of them collectively deside. And their descision was that they do not turn down any offers no matter what. And you want to know what brought the subject on the first place? The fact that the anarchists that attacked them in October with mollies and dynamites wanted to show solidarity after their strike made the front page. And they had to deside if that was cool to accept. And they said OK. Thats where the nazis used as a stepping stone to go (without making it public before) and they somehow knew the perfect day to do it.

Of course, under no circumstances I am equating nazis and anarchists, and neither did the workers. But it was a lil bit much to see them claim the glory of solidarity when everything went smooth, and put the blaim on PAME when something wicked happened.

By the way, my personall view on the subject is that Sifonios(the union president) should have known better and not let the nazis get even a single picture of them over there, because they are known to false media for propaganda use. Its not a matter of luck that the video the nazis puted out lasted less than 1'. He got punked by the nazis. But from this to accuse the whole KKE as nazi friendly is a logical leap that cannot be covered.

Delenda Carthago

22nd February 2012, 23:59

By the way, you know what the nazis said to the workers? That they were there to make them see that they are the real worker-friendly tendecy, not the "orphans of Marx" and the "proffecional workers pimps of the Left". And they said this right next to the president of the union, which is a local hero in his town for his struggles.:D

Silly,silly nazis...

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 00:00

An officer? He is the president of the union(not even the syndicate of the companies employes) that supports PAME. But he is the only one in the 400 workers, and trust me when I say that he does not make descisions on himself. Everything they do, all of them collectively deside. And their descision was that they do not turn down any offers no matter what. And you want to know what brought the subject on the first place? The fact that the anarchists that attacked them in October with mollies and dynamites wanted to show solidarity after their strike made the front page. And they had to deside if that was cool to accept. And they said OK. Thats where the nazis used as a stepping stone to go (without making it public before) and they somehow knew the perfect day to do it.

Of course, under no circumstances I am equating nazis and anarchists, and neither did the workers. But it was a lil bit much to see them claim the glory of solidarity when everything went smooth, and put the blaim on PAME when something wicked happened.

By the way, my personall view on the subject is that Sifonios(the union president) should have known better and not let the nazis get even a single picture of them over there, because they are known to false media for propaganda use. Its not a matter of luck that the video the nazis puted out lasted less than 1'. He got punked by the nazis. But from this to accuse the whole KKE as nazi friendly is a logical leap that cannot be covered.

Dude, he represents PAME and the KKE, when he stands on stage and pals around with nazis, the KKE have to answer for that. And the answer, in my opinion, is at least kicking him out and blacklisting him.

Ele'ill

23rd February 2012, 00:02

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:07

Dude, he represents PAME and the KKE, when he stands on stage and pals around with nazis, the KKE have to answer for that. And the answer, in my opinion, is at least kicking him out and blacklisting him.
No, he represended the workers of the plant. Thats why he is the president of the union. Not because he is a KKE member, but because the workers think that he is the best option to represent their interests. If that was a KKE Party Base Organisation(the local cores of KKE), and he did the same, that would have been a different thing.

And he did not pal up, he got punked. That was a damn shame, no question. But to erase the whole heroic struggle, 116 days of strike tommorow morning(its 2 in the morning here already), because of that mistake? Isnt that a lil bit authoritarian?:p

Sasha

23rd February 2012, 00:07

By the way, my personall view on the subject is that Sifonios(the union president) should have known better and not let the nazis get even a single picture of them over there, because they are known to false media for propaganda use. Its not a matter of luck that the video the nazis puted out lasted less than 1'. He got punked by the nazis. But from this to accuse the whole KKE as nazi friendly is a logical leap that cannot be covered.

He should not let the Nazi's get one picture or he shouldn't have exposed a single worker to fascist? This isn't about some embarrassing PR disaster (well not only) its a much more fundamental principle at stake here...
He didn't get "punked" he knowingly welcomed fascists into a worker struggle ffs.

Ravachol

23rd February 2012, 00:10

Again some points to clear some lies out.

A. The guy in the video is not, of course, a "big time member" of KKE, he is the president of the union. And this is why he was there. No KKE members had any job to be there with that identity. I know that many of you know strikes only by the books, but they are not being done by political parties, but by unions and syndicates.

Great strawman there dude. You're like some kind of born-again christian or whatever.

Doesnt matter what your political views are, thats something different. Specially in the syndicalist model of Greece. So all y all that put out the "we are not accusing the workers, we are accusing KKE" thing, you are lying. This was not a KKE thing,that was not KKE over there, this was a union thing. And since you have to blaim someone other than the owner of the company for that provocation, that means you have a problem with the workers. Period.

Well let me be fucking frank about this, if the majority of the workers had welcomed, knowingly, Golden Dawn morons in their midst and applauded them I would've given them the finger as well. (Though that's obviously not the case). This crap about "don't insult anything any worker ever does" is pathetic. By that logic, everybody here should shut the fuck up and swallow capitalism, given that it's reproduced daily by workers, (semi-)willingly or not. As mentioned earlier, what's next, defending the degenerated KPD's collaboration with the NSDAP during the 1932 BVG strike?

You're just playing the vanguardist strawman again, 'This guy represents PAME, PAME represents all workers, so therefore, anything KKE/PAME ever does, including this, represents T3H TRUE WILL OF TEH WORKERS!!!11!'.

B. KKE has proven in the past its stance against the nazis. For example, the day before the fight with the anarchists in Octomber, the day that it was the bigger demo, 50 GD maggots had filled the whole demonstration area with leaflets. And it was the guard of PAME that kicked them out of Syntagma sq. that day. Also, there is no reason in the world why a party would help another party. Even if KKE had no problem at all with GD(which by the way, not even anarchists in Greece are saying), why would they help them join something like that and share the credit?

I don't know and I don't give a shit. That's what people here are asking. There hasn't been a clear explanation by KKE members or supporters at all, only the usual argument-dodging strawmen insults.

You can claim all you want that they were 'punked', but someone just standing there, laughing and letting them speak doesn't sound like someone who gets 'punked'. It's ironic that a union which is perfectly capable of defending it's blocs and the road to parliament on a demonstration gets 'punked' by a few nazis who just manage to slip past everything, take the microphone for 'just one minute' and finish their speech. Doesn't sound very convincing.

C. Last but not least, to the guys having a good laugh that the image did not made them think of workers movement, thats too bad. Because this one person is more workers movement than all of us internet lefties.

Yes, obviously. Those guys from GD with the aviator glasses and the shaved heads are 'more workers movement' (whatever that may mean) than 'everybody on the internet'. Way to distance yourself from accusations of accommodating fascists. Christ you're boring.

Искра

23rd February 2012, 00:11

Individual should be responsible for his actions. That's why normal political organisations have centralism and they kick idiots. If he's an union representative, he represents union... and party which stands behind the union. Let's not play hide and seek.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:11

What was the response like? What happened? What was the mood and the feelings afterwards?
You are asking me for details that I canot know, I wasnt there you know, but I guess the feelings were not very sweet since they felt they had to answer to the provocation. By the way, I dont think the answer of the workers has been published in here?

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 00:13

No, he represended the workers of the plant. Thats why he is the president of the union. Not because he is a KKE member, but because the workers think that he is the best option to represent their interests. If that was a KKE Party Base Organisation(the local cores of KKE), and he did the same, that would have been a different thing.

And he did not pal up, he got punked. That was a damn shame, no question. But to erase the whole heroic struggle, 116 days of strike tommorow morning(its 2 in the morning here already), because of that mistake? Isnt that a lil bit authoritarian?:p

But he does represent the KKE. So when he acts, especially in a party as disciplined as the KKE, his actions represent the position of the party. If the party is opposed to GD, then the party ought to be disciplining him.

You're trying to paint this as us attacking workers, but nobody has done that. So you can just fuck right off. We're calling the union president a piece of shit for standing with nazis, and we're right in that regard. And now we're saying "what is the KKE gonna do about this" and we're right to ask that question.

And if the workers decided independently that they wanted to give a platform to the nazis, and the president couldn't convince them otherwise, then the only responsible thing for him to do as a communist would be to lead a split with the reactionary elements of the union rank and file.

RaÃºl Duke

23rd February 2012, 00:21

I find these KKE threads ever since the one about them allegedly "co-operating with cops" by allegedly blocking people from storming parliament to be tragically and seemingly absurd and morbidly amusing.

I really don't know who to believe really...although I'm more inclined to side with the critics. Not because "I'm an anarchist/left-com/whatever, so I must hate the KKE" but more that I don't really find the arguments of the people defending KKE's actions (In fact, sometimes I find those arguments delusional and absurd, thus my morbid amusement) to be that credible, whether they're in Greece as well or not, when faced with videos, etc.

What's tragic about the whole thing is, if indeed these accusations are true, besides how the KKE is shafting the working class with their opportunism, is how people on here go on defending them in an absurdly delusional sense which has always been a trait (particularly among Marxist-Leninists, but anarchists aren't immune either) among some members of the leftist milleu which factors into my cynicism and apathy about the left.
So, all I want is some clear information and if the KKE are indeed guilty of these negative accusations than I want to see them shun; no "ifs" or "buts" or more delusion and ignoring reality.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:23

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 00:24

Hey, Ravachol...

http://s.enet.gr/resources/2011-12/43-2--4-thumb-large.jpg

they are coming and the earth will shake!:lol:

by the way, the banner says "Solidarity and class struggle against the Black Front of Goverment- EU-Bosses". Seig Heil!:laugh:

How about you deal with the actual issues here? Or maybe you'd like to use some more racist/sexist/homophobic language so I can just ban you...

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:27

And if the workers decided independently that they wanted to give a platform to the nazis, and the president couldn't convince them otherwise, then the only responsible thing for him to do as a communist would be to lead a split with the reactionary elements of the union rank and file.
Why not organise their mass execution? Isnt that more hardcore revolutionary? Cause, you know, who the fuck is that lil piece of shit anyway? Its not that he is a guy who lead a class oriented struggle for more than 100 days! I mean, thats something anyone can do, right? I am sure that people in Revleft do that all the time.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 00:29

Why not organise their mass execution? Isnt that more hardcore revolutionary? Cause, you know, who the fuck is that lil piece of shit anyway? Its not that he is a guy who lead a class oriented struggle for more than 100 days! I mean, thats something anyone can do, right? I am sure that people in Revleft do that all the time.

So its ok to stand with nazis as long as you're leading a strike? Thats your position?

Искра

23rd February 2012, 00:30

Why not organise their mass execution? Isnt that more hardcore revolutionary? Cause, you know, who the fuck is that lil piece of shit anyway? Its not that he is a guy who lead a class oriented struggle for more than 100 days! I mean, thats something anyone can do, right? I am sure that people in Revleft do that all the time.
Mussolini was one of the best members of PSI and then he created fascism. So, whats your point again?

My point is that there are no excuses for opportunism. And I don't mean on just this Nazi shit, but on the whole existance of KKE.

RaÃºl Duke

23rd February 2012, 00:32

OK, make this clear to me.
The story I heard so far is:
The local union president seemingly openly welcome a GD delegation (knowing who they are; thus the KKE's claim that they were duped seems faulty). This union president is somehow affiliated with PAME and also KKE. How is he affiliated with either? Is he a member of KKE?

Now there's the question that this is an "isolated incident." At some level, I do believe this. However, my question remains, if the local union president is affiliated with PAME and the KKE why didn't they denounced him and/or expel him or disaffiliate him rather than saying "oh we've been duped" and not doing either of these things to rectify this "isolated incident?" By rectifying the situation by disaffiliating this alleged neo-nazi sympathizer would show that the KKE is not fine with members/etc "chumming it" with neo-nazis.

Sasha

23rd February 2012, 00:33

So its ok to stand with nazis as long as you're leading a strike? Thats your position?

Die Partei hat immer recht... ;)

Sie hat uns alles gegeben.

Sonne und Wind und sie geizte nie.

Wo sie war, war das Leben.

Was wir sind, sind wir durch sie.

Sie hat uns niemals verlassen.

Fror auch die Welt, uns war warm.

Uns schützt die Mutter der Massen.

Uns trägt ihr mächtiger Arm.
Die Partei, die Partei, die hat immer Recht!

Und, Genossen, es bleibe dabei;

Denn wer kämpft für das Recht,

Der hat immer recht.

Gegen Lüge und Ausbeuterei.

Wer das Leben beleidigt,

Ist dumm oder schlecht.

Wer die Menschheit verteidigt,

Hat immer recht.

So, aus Leninschem Geist,

Wächst, von Stalin geschweißt,

Die Partei - die Partei - die Partei.
Sie hat uns niemals geschmeichelt.

Sank uns im Kampfe auch mal der Mut,

Hat sie uns leis nur gestreichelt,

zagt nicht und gleich war uns gut.

Zählt denn noch Schmerz und Beschwerde,

wenn uns das Gute gelingt.

Wenn man den Ärmsten der Erde,

Freiheit und Frieden erzwingt.
Die Partei, die Partei, die hat immer Recht!

Und, Genossen, es bleibe dabei;

Denn wer kämpft für das Recht,

Der hat immer recht.

Gegen Lüge und Ausbeuterei.

Der das Leben beleidigt,

Ist dumm oder schlecht.

Wer die Menschheit verteidigt,

Hat immer recht.

So, aus Leninschem Geist,

Wächst, von Stalin geschweißt,

Die Partei - die Partei - die Partei.
Sie hat uns alles gegeben,

Ziegel zum Bau und den großen Plan.

Sie sprach: Meistert das Leben,

Vorwärts Genossen packt an.

Hetzen Hyänen zum Kriege,

Bricht euer Bau ihre Macht,

Zimmert das Haus und die Wiege,

Bauleute seid auf der Wacht.

Die Partei, die Partei, die hat immer Recht!

Und, Genossen, es bleibe dabei;

Denn wer kämpft für das Recht,

Der hat immer Recht.

Gegen Lüge und Ausbeuterei.

Der das Leben beleidigt,

ist dumm oder schlecht.

Wer die Menschheit verteidigt,

Hat immer recht.

So, aus Leninschem Geist,

Wächst, von Stalin geschweißt,

Die Partei - die Partei - die Partei.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:33

So its ok to stand with nazis as long as you're leading a strike? Thats your position?
No, my position is that as long as you got them booed, and as long as you published an announcement to clear your position, and as long as you are keeping the most radical class struggle line for your strike and you try to spread it, getting in a situation like that by some provocateur nazis is not something you should have your head choped off. Something that people who know class struggle can understand and not being moralist over some bs that have no actual value.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:36

And I don't mean on just this Nazi shit, but on the whole existance of KKE.
Do better.

Lisboa

23rd February 2012, 00:38

But he does represent the KKE. So when he acts, especially in a party as disciplined as the KKE, his actions represent the position of the party. If the party is opposed to GD, then the party ought to be disciplining him.

God, how can you say it?? Let’s say I’m a KKE member and I don’t like ecologists and I start to attack them during rallies. Does that mean that the position of KKE is against the ecologists, just because I’m a KKE member and I don’t sympathize with them?

There’s a proverb in Brazil that says “You are trying to find horns in a horse head”. This proverb applies very well to this situation. You guys are trying very hard to blame KKE for this event.

Thirsty Crow

23rd February 2012, 00:40

It says that this is a single incident that is not at all the slightest of justifications for the claims that some are leveling against the KKE. The only straw man argument here is that this one instance defines the whole of the KKE, one of the largest working-class parties in all of Europe.

And while I cannot know the motivation behind the criticisms here, I can know that many of them are essentially without basis, and seem to be
You're one dishonest fuck.
I don't care for the claims some here are making. It's clear that you indeed are closing your eyes, from the simple fact that you refuse to engage the points I made.
For some second or third time, without answer, how does this incident, given that the perpetrator is a trade union head and a member of KKE, reflect on the internal organizational policies of KKE, and what do these policies imply with regard to the overall functioning and role of the party?
Those who don't see a relevance in these questions need to reexamine their politics, and do it very seriously.

No, my position is that as long as you got them booed, and as long as you published an announcement to clear your position, and as long as you are keeping the most radical class struggle line for your strike and you try to spread it, getting in a situation like that by some provocateur nazis is not something you should have your head choped off. Something that people who know class struggle can understand and not being moralist over some bs that have no actual value.

Wait, you're going to claim that this is some provocation incident? That PAME didn't have people responsible for admission to the site? Fuck, even students organized ad hoc and poorly do better than that, but I suspect this is not the case.
Either way, you're fucked beyond reason if you put your trust in these morons. I mean, what the hell, letting fascists speak? Seriously, is this some kind of an idiotic reversal of the position of no platform, something like let them rant and we'll boo them and show they're idiots? If it is then reconsider please who's the idiot here.
If not, then you're pissing in the wind and dropping any pretense to actually upholding revolutionary politics.
And it's incredible how you people can dance around the real issues and avoid addressing them. Pathetic and cowardly, that's how.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 00:52

http://vathikokkino.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/xaliv-300x199.jpg

I leave you goodnight, its almost 3 in the morning here, with the neonazi salute of the workers that PAME/KKE/Sifonios/Molotov/Stalin is responsible for. Seig Heil mein Fuhrer Aleka Papariga!

And I really, really, really, from the bottom of my heart, hope that you people can do better.

Искра

23rd February 2012, 01:00

Do better.
Is this some kind of Olympics, or what? :rolleyes:

Искра

23rd February 2012, 01:05

Wait, you're going to claim that this is some provocation incident? That PAME didn't have people responsible for admission to the site? Fuck, even students organized ad hoc and poorly do better than that, but I suspect this is not the case.
This is fucking important point! In Croatia when we organised assebly on main square one we had open mic. As this was massive (5000-10000 people where there, which is big for Croatia) we couldn't know who are all these people who wanted to talk. So, one idiot took mic and screamed "ZA DOM - SPREMNI" (eng. FOR HOMELAND - READY, which is a Usatasha salute - something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWEcOsthLT8&skipcontrinter=1)) and he wanted to talk some shit, but we took mic from him and told him to piss off. So, yeah... PAME/KKE are responsible without any doubt, because these dickheads didn't just screamed one shit, they made whole speech.

But you can continue with your shit excuses... whatever.

OCMO

23rd February 2012, 01:17

From the extra info that AttackGr provided plus the background I have from struggles here in Portugal (wich, it seems, has a lot of political similarities with Greece) I really think many of you are attacking KKE and PAME beyond the usual normal critique of ideological differences.

First, you usually go at KKE and their vicious stalinism for the undemocratic behaviour and authoritarianism, and then you go here and ask where is the iron fist against a guy who probably couldn't do much of the situation. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Second, you come here with the conclusion that the guy is a major within the KKE and PAME just because he is the president of the union. You know how in your countries (i'm not going for a patronizing angle) there isn't a big CP or a big leftist union and only few leftists with great theoretic knowledge? In places like Portugal and I bet Greece, those numbers of knowledgeable theorist is probably pretty much the same, many ranks of the major european communist parties must have plenty of comrades who like the tennets of socialism but don't have a great marxist or leninist perspective, but are comrades ready and avaliable to further struggles all over those countries in the workplaces. And this occurs within CP's, with the unions this is even more evident, with many non-communists in the ranks but suportive of the general message of the union. Of course, with some lacking of theory they're prone to practical mistakes, as I have witnessed here in Portugal during general strike or demonstrations. Apart from this, a president of a union who is in KKE and PAME doesn't make the factory a PAME-owned struggle. The struggle is from the workers. And many times, this struggles, big struggles, are not moved by any party or union, but by worker's comissions who are very skeptical political-wise but will go beyond the extra mile to defend worker's rights. Of course, because the nature of the struggle, and in other times, in crucial sectors like transports or comunication, the unions make those struggles flagships because it helps to raise consciousness among the rest of the workers. It doesn't mean they have total control over the situation, and of course, those struggles get also the attention of oponents of the current government, including GD. To KKE and/or PAME make a public humiliation of that man it achieves nothing to further class struggle.

Third, those criticisms to the KKE trying to restrain the uprising of the people and such. Well, this seems a situation where the KKE and little control. The thing with unrestrained workers is that they could make decisions contrary to your expectations. Not that i'm advocating full control, nor I believe that's the way of KKE and PAME work, but it shows uncontroled scenarios can lead to bad results. A ban on that guy would weaken their struggle, leave it more permeable to anti-proletarian scum. About splitting, this is something you should do when you have the upper hand, even more in banner struggles, or most likely KKE and PAME would get burned. You may say that isn't a concern of the workers, but if I think I can be an asset to the cause of socialism, I won't cut of my hand.

Crux

23rd February 2012, 01:32

No, my position is that as long as you got them booed, and as long as you published an announcement to clear your position, and as long as you are keeping the most radical class struggle line for your strike and you try to spread it, getting in a situation like that by some provocateur nazis is not something you should have your head choped off. Something that people who know class struggle can understand and not being moralist over some bs that have no actual value.
but it *has* value. They were fucking fascists. So again, why were they not kicked out? Even if the union president was the only KKE member there why did he not make people aware that these were fascists and fascists are not welcome? In the very least this is a monumental lapse in security from the KKE, and having actually been on one of their demo's this is not something I would expect from them.
And the statement from the KKE afterwards is pathetic and furthermore excellently demonstrates KKE's sectarian nature. They fucked up big time, at least own up to it instead of doing there usual routine of dissing everyone that is not themselfes as well as hilariously trying to conflate the rest of the left with the Golden Dawn.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 01:56

Искра

23rd February 2012, 02:30

This video is taken from KKE and GD private party:

Vb3IMTJjzfo

Now I understand what does "no to EU" really mean... so my country can be freeeee!

RedSide

23rd February 2012, 02:43

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 02:50

Second, you come here with the conclusion that the guy is a major within the KKE and PAME just because he is the president of the union. You know how in your countries (i'm not going for a patronizing angle) there isn't a big CP or a big leftist union and only few leftists with great theoretic knowledge? In places like Portugal and I bet Greece, those numbers of knowledgeable theorist is probably pretty much the same, many ranks of the major european communist parties must have plenty of comrades who like the tennets of socialism but don't have a great marxist or leninist perspective, but are comrades ready and avaliable to further struggles all over those countries in the workplaces. And this occurs within CP's, with the unions this is even more evident, with many non-communists in the ranks but suportive of the general message of the union. Of course, with some lacking of theory they're prone to practical mistakes, as I have witnessed here in Portugal during general strike or demonstrations. Apart from this, a president of a union who is in KKE and PAME doesn't make the factory a PAME-owned struggle. The struggle is from the workers. And many times, this struggles, big struggles, are not moved by any party or union, but by worker's comissions who are very skeptical political-wise but will go beyond the extra mile to defend worker's rights. Of course, because the nature of the struggle, and in other times, in crucial sectors like transports or comunication, the unions make those struggles flagships because it helps to raise consciousness among the rest of the workers. It doesn't mean they have total control over the situation, and of course, those struggles get also the attention of oponents of the current government, including GD. To KKE and/or PAME make a public humiliation of that man it achieves nothing to further class struggle.

Wauw...

Girogos Sifonios is not a political nitwit and to assert as such is ridiculous.

He is a long term member of PAME and ran for district elections for the KKE in 1998. Asserting that somebody who ran for office for the KKE has no political awareness and is shaky on theory would not bode well for the party nor for its selection of who it lets run for office.

Especially since the party claims to be a vanguard party and wants to adopt that role. So no....I do not believe your assertion and I do not believe that the KKE being Stalinist can be een as seperate from this event.

There is no hypocracy in denouncing the KKE for being stalinist on one side and pointing out their obvious failure at party discpline on the other. When a party describes itself as, takes the self styles mantle of and wants to portray itself as a vanguard party...it should pretty much be one.

Third, those criticisms to the KKE trying to restrain the uprising of the people and such. Well, this seems a situation where the KKE and little control. The thing with unrestrained workers is that they could make decisions contrary to your expectations. Not that i'm advocating full control, nor I believe that's the way of KKE and PAME work, but it shows uncontroled scenarios can lead to bad results. A ban on that guy would weaken their struggle, leave it more permeable to anti-proletarian scum. About splitting, this is something you should do when you have the upper hand, even more in banner struggles, or most likely KKE and PAME would get burned. You may say that isn't a concern of the workers, but if I think I can be an asset to the cause of socialism, I won't cut of my hand.

No...splitting is what you should do period when fascists are involved. Split and fight. There is NO room for opportunism when it comes to fascists. You do NOT allow fascists to gain any ground and when they do then you fight for that ground. You do NOT say "meh...well...we really don't want them here but we have no choice"

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 02:58

I agree that sifonios should be disciplined, assuming he is a member of KKE. I suppose this won't happen while the workers are on strike. Also, a split would probably mean the end of the strike imho. That's why, I guess, (there is little to no information about the incident tbh, so I can just guess) sifonios let the GD express their "solidarity". There is a FB page of the workers of Halyvourgiki, and there are some GD supporters and workers that don't care about political parties, ideologies and believe that any kind of help should be accepted, so they don't have a problem with GD (sad but true).

So, unfortunately, not every worker that is on strike is antifa, revolutionary or whatever. That is what is actually happening in greece, there are leftists and anarchists that are in denial atm, and still believe that everyone that is on a 115 day strike cares about communism, revolution and class struggle (some kind of fetishism?) while most of them , just want to have a job and a decent salary. So the easiest thing to do is attack KKE, and say that they are "colaborating" with GD or bs like that, since KKE=evil, GD=evil so they SHOULD be working together:laugh:. On the other side there is KKE, which I still think is in shock and try to find the best way to react, since PAME was the main supporter of the strike from the beginning. Should KKE/PAME have been more protective? I believe so, but this would mean non stop bashing by everyone saying that KKE is trying to control the strike, patronize the workers etc.

Btw I was disappointed by the late reaction of KKE (an article in rizospastis this tuesday) and the way people started bashing KKE based on the 1min video GD uploaded on their site. I guess GD achieved their goals.GJ:(

In case you haven't noticed....PAME/KKE have been really trying to monopolise the strike from the start. It is also extremely logical the KKE/PAME want to do this...since it is basically their long term stated objective....both as a vanguard party and as a statement released on their sites...which basically come down to: everybody in PAME/KKE. Slamming everybody outside their organisations aswell by the way... as being token, provocteur, opportunist, doing to little, only comming late etc. etc. Basically standard operating procedure for KKE.

So yeah...they should have taken better care. They should have protected the strike from fascists entering. They should have prevented them to hand out material.

You can not tell me neither KKE nor PAME have large support amongst the 400 steelworkers....so I basically do NOT bellieve no adhoc organisation could have been created to kick 12 fascists out or at least try to voice them out.

But most of all they should have issued an immediate condemnation of GD's visit. And they didn't. They didn't issue a statement at all. They REACTED to an article by SYRIZA.

Nowhere have I read something about extra efforts in order to prevent fascists from attending again. Nor have I read anything about information to the Steelworkers about the dangers of fascism.

I do not understand why the president THANKED GD officials for being present. Nor do I not understand why he didn;t denounce fascist involvement from the get go.

What I did read was one hell of a long shot in trying to white wash the whole event and a very childish attempt to go on the offensive and blame SYRIZA for reporting the obvious gross negligence (at the very least) from PAME/KKE...instead of...you know...issuing a statement right away whoch could have avoided the whole situation.

Ravachol

23rd February 2012, 03:04

Hey, Ravachol...

http://s.enet.gr/resources/2011-12/43-2--4-thumb-large.jpg

they are coming and the earth will shake!:lol:

What does that even mean? Oh look, here's a decently sized group of people marching under PAME banners, so I don't have to come up with arguments?

Well in that case KKE can start packing it's 'revolutionary' bags already because outside of Greece, European Stalinism is even more marginal than the most marginal parts of anarchism. But whatever, seeing as you're just being a (rather pathetic) condescending moron who thinks this kind of shit is a substitute for an argument, who cares.

Dear god, it's a good thing the KKE's international brethern don't behave completely the same (nor have anywhere near the size to do that) because i'm increasingly starting to understand RAAN's rather ad-hoc position on Leninism.....

RedSide

23rd February 2012, 03:15

I don't know how many people where there when GD showed up. I guess a few. Just pay attention to the GD guy glasses while sifonios is speaking. How many workers can you see? This doesn't mean that sifonios didn't make a mistake standing next to them and applauding, but I don't believe he had much choice when they showed up.

KurtFF8

23rd February 2012, 03:50

If this union president had the ability to prevent the Nazi from speaking, he very well should have used that power to combat fascism.

And the KKE's statements seem to be an attempt to save face more than anything else here, and they aren't doing a good job it seems.

Die Neue Zeit

23rd February 2012, 03:53

Didn't the KPD cooperate with the NSDAP during a strike in Berlin in the early 1930s? KKE ought to know better than to lend any credence to the Golden Dawn. I would be interested to know if SYRIZA has exposed the KKE's rotten opportunism or not?

That's different. Staunch defenders of "United Front" mistakes back then should look up the interwar SPD's "Democratic Front" antics (unity with the libs and cons) against the KPD. Unlike today's mainstream Greek parties, the former also had militias.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 05:47

Comrade Jandar

23rd February 2012, 06:05

Anyone find it ironic that the KKE, a deplorable concoction of social-democracy and stalinism, is cozying up to fascists? Didn't Stalin have some crazy idea that social democracy = social-fascism? Maybe there is some truth to this theory. lol

Die Neue Zeit

23rd February 2012, 06:36

Anyone find it ironic that the KKE, a deplorable concoction of social-democracy and stalinism, is cozying up to fascists? Didn't Stalin have some crazy idea that social democrazy = social-fascism? Maybe there is some truth to this theory. lol

Social corporatism is an undeniable political fact, but that's not the subject of this thread.

Nuvem

23rd February 2012, 10:00

So all the facts still stand, an important officer in PAME, a shop president. Provided a platform for nazis to speak.

Certain posters here think there is nothing wrong with that.

Attackgr, you said you think its ok to give a platform to nazis.

The funniest part is that those of us who don't believe it's okay to give a platform to Nazis are called "authoritarian Stalinists" by swarming mobs of Anarchists who subsequently flip shit when a "Stalinist" organization allows a fascist group to take the platform. So much for "free speech".

I also like how everyone here was saying how much they wanted to hear from some Greek comrades about the issue, and when one came around to it, the response was a resounding, "NAW, FUCK THAT OPINION. THAT DOESN'T FIT WITH THE CONCEPTION I'VE ALREADY FORMED." This isn't to say that the KKE members present didn't make a serious mistake by letting this happen (though I will repeat that THE KKE IS NOT IN CHARGE OF THE STRIKE, as our lone Greek comrade pointed out to no one's notice or care), that doesn't necessarily damn an entire party, especially of the KKE's size- particularly when the party center has openly condemned the GD.

Seriously people. In a country like Greece that's flaring up in chaos as it is now, with so many different struggles taking place, with so many groups of varying sizes, goals and affiliations involved, you don't think it's possible for one small, isolated group to deviate from the party center and behave in a way that the party as a whole doesn't agree with? This thread has basically degenerated into 7 pages of ultra-libertarian circle-jerk. You've seen the incident and read the party's official response, but still insist that wrongdoings by a few persons damns the entire massive organization. You ask why our Greek comrade gets so heated up about it, and I can tell you why; what you people are doing in this thread is disgusting. You're taking a murky situation and a mistake (deviation?) on the part of a handful of people and using it to further your political rhetoric by inflating the issue to include many thousands of people who are totally uninvolved with what took place here. And to make it worse, rather than actually addressing our Greek comrade's statements in totality, you quotemine bits and pieces and mockingly address them so as to confuse, confound, and make legitimate discourse impossible (classic Revleftery).

You ask for a Greek comrade's perspective and when it doesn't agree with yours, you disregard their statement and browbeat them into a corner and just keep talking.

Искра

23rd February 2012, 10:04

The funniest part is that those of us who don't believe it's okay to give a platform to Nazis are called "authoritarian Stalinists" by swarming mobs of Anarchists who subsequently flip shit when a "Stalinist" organization allows a fascist group to take the platform. So much for "free speech".
Oi hippie - jump of the bridge!

Free speech is liberal bollocks. We are for revolutionary totalitarianism.

Omsk

23rd February 2012, 10:05

Didn't Stalin have some crazy idea that social democrazy = social-fascism?

No he didn't.

We are for revolutionary totalitarianism.

We are for destroe kapitalisms.

Nuvem

23rd February 2012, 10:06

Oi hippie - jump of the bridge!

Free speech is liberal bollocks. We are for revolutionary totalitarianism.

Hence the dripping sarcasm. The point is precisely that free speech is liberal bollocks, and I can't tell you how many heavy-handed rage-typing Anarchists have called me a "Stalinist" for saying that fascists should be denied a platform.

Then, when they get the platform under the nose of a "Stalinist" organization, they're "embracing Nazi intervention". The lapses in basic logic are so apparent that it's not even funny. It's just sad.

Искра

23rd February 2012, 10:07

We are for destroe kapitalisms.
You can not destroy capitalism without revolutionary totalitarianism.

Искра

23rd February 2012, 10:11

Hence the dripping sarcasm. The point is precisely that free speech is liberal bollocks, and I can't tell you how many heavy-handed rage-typing Anarchists have called me a "Stalinist" for saying that fascists should be denied a platform.

Then, when they get the platform under the nose of a "Stalinist" organization, they're "embracing Nazi intervention". The lapses in basic logic are so apparent that it's not even funny. It's just sad.
Honey, two facts:

1) Article is not writen by anarchists. It's writen my left communists. Left communist are really not for "free speech" or "democracy" etc. (especially us with Bordiga fetish ;))

2) You are trying to justify organisation which didn't react when their member let fascists talk. (I wouldn't let a Stalinist or a Trot to talk... and I would probably attack fascists.) Also, while you justify those idiots you use really liberal rethorics - an individual. There's no such thing as an idividual in organisation (at least when it comes to politics you present to the world).

black magick hustla

23rd February 2012, 10:24

*yawn* a large social democratic party that is basically eurocommunist in praxis (even the ideological weiners in it jerkoff to pics of stalin or w/e) does what large social democratic parties do. who cares lol.

Martin Blank

23rd February 2012, 11:14

Y'know, I'm someone who likes to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm seriously trying to figure out this whole situation without giving in to impulse reactions in either direction. But when I look at it from either perspective, nothing adds up.

This guy, Sifonios, is no idiot, so it would make sense that he would know exactly who he was dealing with. I can only see one snag, however, with that basic proposition. In one of AttackGr's posts, he mentions that Sifonios lost his hearing from years of working in the factory. If that is, indeed, the case, then it may very well be that he didn't exactly know that it was a fascist who spoke before him, due to those hearing problems. (And, on a slightly related note, Sifonios didn't exactly look April fresh in that video; it seriously looks like he's had some really rough times during the days leading up to when this video was made.)

Another thing that caught my attention is that the video seems to come from the GD itself, which means it is edited in their favor. In my book, that would make the accusation of it being "doctored" more credible. At this point, I don't think the video is any kind of reliable evidence, one way or the other, except that it yields a number of visual clues.

I wonder if Sifonios or any of the other union officials saw the canned items GD brought with them before their person spoke? From what I could glean from the stills included in the video, it looks like they dropped them just inside the gate before going through the crowd and up to the microphone. (Another of the stills appears to show a brick wall separating the factory entrance area and the sidewalk. If there is, that would have masked any advance notice of the fascists entering the factory.)

What does all this mean? I'm still not sure myself. Personally, I'd like to hear from some of the workers who were there at the time, to listen to what they saw.

If Sifonios was lucid enough (i.e., not completely exhausted and strung out from days of strike activity, and/or not seriously hard of hearing) to know whether that guy was a fascist, and welcomed their presence anyway, then the criticisms are valid and, at the very least, he should be expelled from the KKE and PAME. If there were other KKE and PAME members there in solidarity, and they neither informed Sifonios nor took action against the GD, then they should be booted out, too.

On the other hand, if it was a case where Sifonios did not realize it was a fascist speaking, either because of exhaustion or bad hearing (or both), then it gets a little grey. In a situation like that, it would be incumbent on the KKE and PAME to, at the very least, organize a small group of members to act as a second set of "eyes and ears" for Sifonios, so that something like this never happens again.

As for the KKE, they have handled this worse than one could even imagine. Playing the victim and whining about "provocations" only makes them look like they have something to hide. If they had any basic common sense, they would have gotten ahead of this story, with articles in Risospastis from Sifonios and other workers explaining what happened, and what they plan to do about potential fascist provocations in the future. But they didn't, so the belief that the KKE is trying to cover something up will continue.

Anyway, sorry if it seems like I pissed in the punchbowl. I just want to get to the facts of the matter.

Sasha

23rd February 2012, 11:32

Hence the dripping sarcasm. The point is precisely that free speech is liberal bollocks, and I can't tell you how many heavy-handed rage-typing Anarchists have called me a "Stalinist" for saying that fascists should be denied a platform.

Then, when they get the platform under the nose of a "Stalinist" organization, they're "embracing Nazi intervention". The lapses in basic logic are so apparent that it's not even funny. It's just sad.

I don't know what kind of "anarchists" you have over where you are but everywhere I have been its in general only the anarchists and libertarian marxists who enforce a strict no platform while the state socialists together with the liberals stand on a square as far away [email protected] possible demanding state censorship, that is if they bother to get involved at all...

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 11:43

Wauw...

Girogos Sifonios is not a political nitwit and to assert as such is ridiculous.

He is a long term member of PAME and ran for district elections for the KKE in 1998. Asserting that somebody who ran for office for the KKE has no political awareness and is shaky on theory would not bode well for the party nor for its selection of who it lets run for office.

Especially since the party claims to be a vanguard party and wants to adopt that role. So no....I do not believe your assertion and I do not believe that the KKE being Stalinist can be een as seperate from this event.

There is no hypocracy in denouncing the KKE for being stalinist on one side and pointing out their obvious failure at party discpline on the other. When a party describes itself as, takes the self styles mantle of and wants to portray itself as a vanguard party...it should pretty much be one.

No...splitting is what you should do period when fascists are involved. Split and fight. There is NO room for opportunism when it comes to fascists. You do NOT allow fascists to gain any ground and when they do then you fight for that ground. You do NOT say "meh...well...we really don't want them here but we have no choice"
I never said Sifonios dont have political awareness. On the contrary, I said he is a hero of the working class. The guy is leading the most radical strike in Greece for years and years, and he sparked it himself. And everybody(but some sad, sad minorities) in Greece thinks so too, even after the nazi incident. Obviously Revleft is being joined by the people who liberated Stalingrad in WWII and people from Durruti Column, so they are not that impresed.

Again, KKE had NO role in the strike. Even PAME has no role but the one of solidarity. PAME is not making the choises, the union of the workers is. PAME is just supporting them mostly financially. The workers desided to accept the solidarity by anyone, and Sifonios role was to be the tool of that desision, not make one of his own upon the workers.

If anyone thinks that the workers, the few that were there at the time, after 109 days of strike and pretty much starvation(they need 200.000 euros a month just to live descently) should have fought with the known goons of GD, who some of them have even take part in wars(like the fat fuck smiling at the back of Sifonios), falls into the trap of the provocation the worst way.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 11:51

one is...they didn't get them booeed.

second is....after the speech they allowed them to hand out goods and propaganda

third is...the condemnation only came a week after it and ONLY in response to a SYRIZA article

fourth is...it is completely unbelievable that GD officers enter an event without prior knowledge and NOTHING was organised in advance.
Yes he did.

The goods were left outside of the plant and for a good reason: the nazi fucks had them decorated with their stickers.

The workers have an assembly once a week, every Friday. Friday was the day the nazis showed up. The workers had an extra assembly on the situation on Sunday and it was published in the next Rizospastis, in Tuesday.

The nazis OF COURSE did not anounced that they would go there. If that was the case, not only PAME but leftists and anarchists too would be accountable for not being there. But then, it wouldnt be a very good provocation, would it?

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 12:02

(...)
Seeing that these reactionary theories had no impact, that proudly Steel continued their fight against Manessis and his class as a whole, that this struggle had the support of all workers here and abroad by the workers of the world and from immigrants who work in our country, they decided to strike with others insidiously our struggle. In the 109th day of strike suddenly they visited the factory on the pretext of material assistance. Once the pasta took pictures and brought water, decorated with election slogans emetics, which we saw after they had gone, and since their presence captured, then began the famous work. Through various announcements began to provoke our struggle, the union and its officers.At the same time, some others from other groups, found the opportunity to openly say what they hid so long, that they also use the strike for our own reasons not to agree with it and its contents.
Answer to all those that are small, to judge and strike the match of the steelworkers. The Steelworkers expressed through the decisions of the Assembly and the board of the association. These reflected the class content and orientation match their demands.
We repeat again that we ask the solidarity of all workers. We declare, however, once again, that the struggle of steel or disoriented, or acquired under the pretext of material assistance. In our call, from the beginning, met hundreds of unions, mass organizations and thousands of workers from Greece and around the world, with many organizations have different views, goals and direction.
We know that some do not offer material assistance to help that others have in mind. We declare that steel companies are not for the teeth of the Golden Dawn and several other alleged rebels. The steel industry workers are part of organized class movement, which was and remains the main supporter of their cause. It is no coincidence that all those accused of PAME, inside and outside of Greece, who was from the beginning remains the main supporter of our cause, now a nationwide campaign for financial support of our struggle. We call all the steel industry to isolate those who cause damage to our cause.We say to Manessis and people that are mistaken if they think that they will provoke and hit the solidarity movement of our struggle. The provocations will not pass.

We strive to make the whole Greece a Halyvourgia. "

From the workers announcement, since nobody here thought it was somehow relevant to see what THEY say.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 12:08

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 12:11

From the workers announcement, since nobody here thought it was somehow relevant to see what THEY say.

Link please.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 12:12

I never said Sifonios dont have political awareness. On the contrary, I said he is a hero of the working class. The guy is leading the most radical strike in Greece for years and years, and he sparked it himself. And everybody(but some sad, sad minorities) in Greece thinks so too, even after the nazi incident. Obviously Revleft is being joined by the people who liberated Stalingrad in WWII and people from Durruti Column, so they are not that impresed.

Again, KKE had NO role in the strike. Even PAME has no role but the one of solidarity. PAME is not making the choises, the union of the workers is. PAME is just supporting them mostly financially. The workers desided to accept the solidarity by anyone, and Sifonios role was to be the tool of that desision, not make one of his own upon the workers.

If anyone thinks that the workers, the few that were there at the time, after 109 days of strike and pretty much starvation(they need 200.000 euros a month just to live descently) should have fought with the known goons of GD, who some of them have even take part in wars(like the fat fuck smiling at the back of Sifonios), falls into the trap of the provocation the worst way.

Do you even read posts or do you glance through them? Did you see who I quoted in that post? Was it you? No. It wasn't.

And could you please explain why both PAME and KKE are using this as THEIR flagship propaganda event in their publications? You know....since they ONLY play a token role in financial support and for the rest have nothing to do with the strike? Just saying.

Now...what you are arguing here is that PAME/KKE and their members are just going along with whatever the workers decide. That would directly mean that no PAME/KKE officials are trying to persuade the workers, try to educate them or try to direct the action. Is that what you are arguing?

black magick hustla

23rd February 2012, 12:17

now that i've thought a bit about this, i mean i don't think this GD thing is a big deal at all. It is a strike and probably most people there don't care who comes to support them etc. Its kindof weird to come up with some weird conspriacy about kke nazi sympathies. the kke is a ordinary left wing bourgeois party, i think this whole nazi thing is to score political points. i mean, im sure many nazis and kkk folk vote republican, does this mean the republicans are nazi friendly? cmon.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 12:52

Link please.
http://redflyplanet.blogspot.com/2012/02/blog-post_6569.html

OCMO

23rd February 2012, 12:54

Wauw...

Girogos Sifonios is not a political nitwit and to assert as such is ridiculous.

He is a long term member of PAME and ran for district elections for the KKE in 1998. Asserting that somebody who ran for office for the KKE has no political awareness and is shaky on theory would not bode well for the party nor for its selection of who it lets run for office.

Especially since the party claims to be a vanguard party and wants to adopt that role. So no....I do not believe your assertion and I do not believe that the KKE being Stalinist can be een as seperate from this event.

There is no hypocracy in denouncing the KKE for being stalinist on one side and pointing out their obvious failure at party discpline on the other. When a party describes itself as, takes the self styles mantle of and wants to portray itself as a vanguard party...it should pretty much be one.

No...splitting is what you should do period when fascists are involved. Split and fight. There is NO room for opportunism when it comes to fascists. You do NOT allow fascists to gain any ground and when they do then you fight for that ground. You do NOT say "meh...well...we really don't want them here but we have no choice"
I didn't call him a nitwit. I don't know this guy, but this information about district elections wasn't around before AttackGr posted, he was attacked for being president of the union, as if president of the union is revealing of some expertise when it comes to revolutionary attitude or knowledge. In factories or entreprises where unions like PAME only have a fistfull or less comrades, they still will try to achieve good positions within the union and worker's comission, not wait to see if a more enlighted comrade gets hired by that company. And although they aren't big shots they are extremly valuable for agitating places where PAME as a difficulty reaching.

But even if this guy has a complete awareness, as stated here, he still had little or no control of the situation.

As for disciplinary actions, i'm sure it will be dealt within the organization the evaluation of the situation and what is going to be done, not shouting stuff to the public like a common bourgeois party.

EDIT: Also, how do you assert the union has fascists? Even if there are some members who belong towards de centre of the political spectrum they'll say "well, if we allow guys from one end, we should allow from the other end to." Is liberal shit, but it happens.

EDIT2: Members of the union or worker's comission, not of PAME or KKE, evidently. :P

Sasha

23rd February 2012, 13:23

And for all y all hooligans that do politics based on what your team/tendecy line seems to be taking, here is an anarchist poster from a gig this Saturday to gather money for the steelworkers.

[IMG]http://athens.indymedia.org/calendar/uploads/sunaulia.jpg[/IMG

Cause when I say "sad, sad minorities" I mean "some pathetics within the anarchists/ leftists", not the whole of them.

Oh Hey, look at those damned pathetic dutch anarchist hooligans who dare to be critical of Nazi involvement in a strike they declared themselves in solidarity with and THEY HELPED RAISE FUNDS FOR:

Dutch anarcho-syndicalist union send money and a letter of support to the Greek striking steel workers, article in dutch with support declaration in Greek: http://anarcho-syndicalisme.nl/wp/?p=1292

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 13:28

I didn't call him a nitwit. I don't know this guy, but this information about district elections wasn't around before AttackGr posted, he was attacked for being president of the union, as if president of the union is revealing of some expertise when it comes to revolutionary attitude or knowledge. In factories or entreprises where unions like PAME only have a fistfull or less comrades, they still will try to achieve good positions within the union and worker's comission, not wait to see if a more enlighted comrade gets hired by that company. And although they aren't big shots they are extremly valuable for agitating places where PAME as a difficulty reaching.

That information was in the OP.

But even if this guy has a complete awareness, as stated here, he still had little or no control of the situation.

This is not about control over the situation. This is about response to the situation by party officials.

Now we have several points:

* both PAME and KKE have claimed the strike as being one they are heavilly involved in in the organisation weeks ago. Not just financial support. But actual organising of the strike and the strikers. These are their words.

--> This now turns out to be untrue. As per argument of our Greek comrades.
Who clearly state neither PAME nor KKE play any other part than support and financial aid.

* But untill yesterday when AttackGr used this argument....which goes against what both PAME and KKE have claimed in the past...we only had the PAME and KKE assertions that they were heavily involved in the organising of the strike and how this is an example of succesful PAME and KKE action.

IF that is the main position then the "incident" of the GD appearance raises legitimate questions:

- When the PAME and KKE claim dominance over an event how come they do not actually assert that dominance by allowing fascists to gain a platform.
- When PAMe and KKE claim dominance of an event then why would a PAME official and KKE member leading the strike welcome fascists?
- Why is there no official and immediate response from the selfproclaimed organisers of the evnt?
- And how likely would it be for KKE and PAME controlled events to unknowingly allow fascists to arrive at the work place and poison the strike with their bile?
- And if that is unlikely why would neither PAME and KKE take disciplinary actions?
- Why have no preventative measures been taken if the event is PAME and KKE dominated?

--> These questions have now been answered. Neither PAME nor KKE actually have any influence in the strike and are just using nice rethorics and propaganda to only claim that they do. This answer obviously raises further questions beyond the subject of this thread about KKE and PAME propaganda.

But it also explains why PAME and KKE immediately went into "victim" mode and blame shifting. After all what more could they do? Their own propaganda lies were exposed and in order to detract from the truth of the matter (ie. they have no actual influence and they in fact do not play an organising role at all). So they were faced with a dubble edged blade. If they had in fact as they themselves claimed played and organising role then they were in fact responsible for the GD appearance and tainted by it....or they would be exposed for the fact that they had tried as much as they accuse others of doing (see their publication and the response from the Greek comrades) to claim and monopolise the event for political and strategic gain.

So....yeah...

As for disciplinary actions, i'm sure it will be dealt within the organization the evaluation of the situation and what is going to be done, not shouting stuff to the public like a common bourgeois party.

Yes, yes...I keep forgetting that transparancy does not suit the KKE.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 13:30

Oh Hey, look at those damned pathetic dutch anarchist hooligans who dare to be critical of Nazi involvement in a strike they declared themselves in solidarity with and THEY HELPED RAISE FUNDS FOR:
My point exactly. Not all anarchists are losers enough to bite the worm of the nazi provocation. Good for them. By the way, how strong is that a/s organisation?

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 13:35

* both PAME and KKE have claimed the strike as being one they are heavilly involved in in the organisation weeks ago. Not just financial support. But actual organising of the strike and the strikers. These are their words.

--> This now turns out to be untrue. As per argument of our Greek comrades.
Who clearly state neither PAME nor KKE play any other part than support and financial aid.

* But untill yesterday when AttackGr used this argument....which goes against what both PAME and KKE have claimed in the past...we only had the PAME and KKE assertions that they were heavily involved in the organising of the strike and how this is an example of succesful PAME and KKE action.

IF that is the main position then the "incident" of the GD appearance raises legitimate questions:

--> These questions have now been answered. Neither PAME nor KKE actually have any influence in the strike and are just using nice rethorics and propaganda to only claim that they do. This answer obviously raises further questions beyond the subject of this thread about KKE and PAME propaganda.

No, the only thing I said was that PAME is not taking descisions about the strike, it just helps. And the fact that Sifonios was the one who organised it(how else would you think the workers would declare class dignity? PASOK that they used to vote for thought them that?). And thats why PAME was there from the first day of the strike, while others learned about it much later.

Do you have any document that PAME has said that THEY did the strike? Because if they did, that would be foul. But at least in the greek language I have not seen anything like that.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 13:36

My point exactly. Not all anarchists are losers enough to bite the worm of the nazi provocation. Good for them. By the way, how strong is that a/s organisation?

Strong enough for Girogos Sifonios and PAME/KKE thanking the Dutch support actions on the 20th in both speech and publications.

You know....since the Dutch anarchists on this forum have no idea about the situation at all and have not made any sacrifices at all for the Greek Steelworkers or anything....to try and raise the "€ 200.000 a month they need for decent living". But I will remember that next time when I eat dry bread or have to bum a lift to my next job interview because I have no more cash.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 13:41

No, the only thing I said was that PAME is not taking descisions about the strike, it just helps. And the fact that Sifonios was the one who organised it(how else would you think the workers would declare class dignity? PASOK that they used to vote for thought them that?). And thats why PAME was there from the first day of the strike, while others learned about it much later.

Do you have any document that PAME has said that THEY did the strike? Because if they did, that would be foul. But at least in the greek language I have not seen anything like that.

Well, who organised it? The workers or PAME?

Here is a quick glance the KKE on the issue:

“Greek Steelworks”. The striking workers in the Athens factory and their trade union, which belongs to PAME, remain unbowed for 80 days

....

PAME organized a large rally in Athens where the president of the union in the Greek Steelworks G. Sifonios and other cadre of PAME spoke. The class oriented forces declared their determination to wage an unwavering class struggle, to continue the struggle in the Greek Steelworks, to refuse any participation in the so called “social dialogues”, to organize “garrisons” in every working class neighbourhood so as to prevent the cutting off of electricity to any family from the working class and popular strata and to escalate the struggle for a new general strike.

http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-01-18

Ravachol

23rd February 2012, 13:56

My point exactly. Not all anarchists are losers enough to bite the worm of the nazi provocation. Good for them. By the way, how strong is that a/s organisation?

Yes, except that that is the organisation I'm in...

It were Greek members of my organisation that have contacts with strikers involved at the strike at Halivourgia. You're trying to frame this whole thing (or genuinly misunderstand the posts here) as "You don't support the steelworkers, you hate the workers, blablabla" while what we did was criticize the actions of a KKE/PAME official in handling a situation which clearly seemed like he applauded or condoned the support of GD members. When we asked for an explanation, all we got was a rather hastily put together statement from Rizospastis which made things seem even more dodgy.

I wonder why, similar to the last trainwreck of a thread, there can never be a clear answer on these matters. First the claim is these GD clowns are not nazis but just random dudes. Then the claim is it was a provocation of only 1 minute and nobody knew what was happening (which we considered suspect because the KKE is perfectly capable of recognizing provocateurs at demos and using their militants to keep them out or otherwise smash things up) then the claim is that the workers collectively (through their vanguard, PAME, of course) want GD to be present there and this is something that should never be questioned.

And then you claim again it's 'just a provocation' (whatever that may mean) and try to frame the issue like we're attacking the strikers for this (which we aren't) instead of trying to get a clear answer out of KKE supporters for this rather weird situation. Something that seems impossible.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 14:36

Well, who organised it? The workers or PAME?

Here is a quick glance the KKE on the issue:
What the post says its true. The union is being organised in PAME(which btw is a front, not KKE's syndicalist part which is ESAK) and PAME had organised that solidarity demo. But its their union that takes the descisions, not the Central Commitee of PAME. The rest of PAME supports by their side,financially and politicaly, but it does not take their place in the struggle. It cant say that they should or should not continue the strike. Nor it can go and guard outside of the plant if the workers dont ask for help. Thats the workers job.

And stop crying about your a/s organisation, I wasnt dissing, I was honestly quirious to know how strong a/s is in Holland.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 14:55

Yes, except that that is the organisation I'm in...

It were Greek members of my organisation that have contacts with strikers involved at the strike at Halivourgia. You're trying to frame this whole thing (or genuinly misunderstand the posts here) as "You don't support the steelworkers, you hate the workers, blablabla" while what we did was criticize the actions of a KKE/PAME official in handling a situation which clearly seemed like he applauded or condoned the support of GD members. When we asked for an explanation, all we got was a rather hastily put together statement from Rizospastis which made things seem even more dodgy.

I wonder why, similar to the last trainwreck of a thread, there can never be a clear answer on these matters. First the claim is these GD clowns are not nazis but just random dudes. Then the claim is it was a provocation of only 1 minute and nobody knew what was happening (which we considered suspect because the KKE is perfectly capable of recognizing provocateurs at demos and using their militants to keep them out or otherwise smash things up) then the claim is that the workers collectively (through their vanguard, PAME, of course) want GD to be present there and this is something that should never be questioned.

And then you claim again it's 'just a provocation' (whatever that may mean) and try to frame the issue like we're attacking the strikers for this (which we aren't) instead of trying to get a clear answer out of KKE supporters for this rather weird situation. Something that seems impossible.
So you want to tell me that the fact that the workers accepted the GD nazis is a chance to attack KKE and its leadership, not the workers. Like this was a party's descision. If you are applying critic to the president of the union, who at that time was executing the order the workers gave him to accept everyone's solidarity, you are applying critic to the workers, not the party.

And I was pretty clear a bout the provocation thing. The day that for the first time 50/400 workers said that the strike should stop, they change their line on the subject(which by then was that the workers are "red scums" that want to close the company blah blah blah) and they show up at the time there were just few people to guard the strike. And they take photos of the stuff somewhere else(this ground is not on Halyvourgia), and they make a collage of video and pictures that seems however they wanted to. And they even said that it took them 109 days to go there, because they were working!!! Now, there are two ways to analyse that situation. One is to say that it was all just a matter of luck. The other is to say that the GD was executing a political contract with Manesis, the boss of Halyvourgia to provoce the struggle.

If you think that all these are just a matter of luck, you accuse Sifonios and the workers of being nazi-friendly(or even tolerant) and you end up asking for explenations from KKE about its thinking on nazis.

If you think that this was a provocation, you see that Sifonios was in a tuff spot and even though he didnt managed to have the best stance on this, he at least managed to keep the strike going.

The class struggle in Greece has been escalated to new levels, in which provocations like that should be expected on an often basis. Which side are you on? Are you in the side of the workers and are you gonna take a deep dive into shit, or are you gonna turn in your own small world and keep your ultra-revolutionary line just so you can apply a critic to everyone from above? Because my personall experience and historical study shows me that there is no such thing as a revolutionary with completely clear hands. Because every revolution has its contradictions that you have to deal with. Clear revolutions exist only in the minds of daydreamers and in books. And thats something I hope at least some people are taking as a lesson from this struggle.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 14:55

What the post says its true. The union is being organised in PAME(which btw is a front, not KKE's syndicalist part which is ESAK) and PAME had organised that solidarity demo. But its their union that takes the descisions, not the Central Commitee of PAME. The rest of PAME supports by their side,financially and politicaly, but it does not take their place in the struggle. It cant say that they should or should not continue the strike. Nor it can go and guard outside of the plant if the workers dont ask for help. Thats the workers job.

And stop crying about your a/s organisation, I wasnt dissing, I was honestly quirious to know how strong a/s is in Holland.

Your question of if they claimed ownership has been answered. How that in fact plays out in reality is not really relevant when we are talking about what they claim and suggest they do. They do in fact claim ownership in that very article which simply popped up when I reentered the KKE site looking for the articles.

I am not crying about my organisation, because it is not my organisation.
But what I am trying to show you is that you, like KKE and PAME, attempt continuously to slander all criticism against the KKE or PAME. Which is pretty obvious from your posts since last October and is repeated here by your immediate claim that criticism of PAME/KKE equals slandering the workers or opposing the workers. Thisis actually what KKE/PAME always do. If you are not following their party line or uncritically support it then you are cast off as an enemy, provocateur, fake, burgeoisie stooge (eventhough the KKE itself participated in parliament and even in government), or even a fascist if you are not careful. But in actual fact the criticism comes from people who are involved in the situation. Make very real sacrifices themselves to support it. They have a right to be critical of other groups involved. They have a right to ask questions as to the flow of information and the admittance of fascists on the scene. And they have a right to ask questions about the PAME and KKE position on this and to question their motives and involvement. But apparantly that makes us provocateurs and arm chair revolutionaries. :rolleyes:

Now that criticism given the claims made by PAME/KKE in the last months and weeks that they own the event. That it is being organised by PAME/KKE and that they alledge they have a lot of organisational influence thus leads to a justified conclusion we asserted from the start: that Nazi's walked in on a PAME/KKE dominated event. Followed by silence and eventually an extremely dodgy reaction from PAME/KKE. The criticism of those who actually...you know...send finances, including myself, to support the strike is not all that strange or weird.

Now this seems not to be true. In fact the reason why this is not true is because neither PAME nor KKE have any actual influence in the event. They claimed they do...they were caught with their pants on fire trying to capitalise on the strike (ironically accusing others of trying to do so)...but at least they do not openly support fascists.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 14:59

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 15:09

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why an officer in a communist organization should not be disciplined for giving a platform to nazis?

I never said the KKE is friends with GD.

I never said the steel workers are closet nazis.

I never faulted the workers, I am faulting their union president who gave the nazis a platform.

I am not claiming there is a conspiracy within the KKE to form an alliance with GD, I'm asking why they haven't disciplined their member who gave a platform to nazis.

Attackgr, if you don't want to/don't have the ability to answer the actual questions that we've been asking, then why don't you just fuck off to a different thread?
Τemper temper. I am trying to be nice here.

If they have disciplined Sifonios or not its something that a non-party member cannot and shouldnt know. I think in KKE you have like 3 strikes chance before you get kicked out. Sifonios might got his first one(?). But I dont expect an announcement about that. Do you?

Now if you think that a person that has proven his stripes really hard should be thrown from a party for a mistake, I think you are more totalitarian than the big bad stalinists.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 15:25

Τemper temper. I am trying to be nice here.

If they have disciplined Sifonios or not its something that a non-party member cannot and shouldnt know. I think in KKE you have like 3 strikes chance before you get kicked out. Sifonios might got his first one(?). But I dont expect an announcement about that. Do you?

Now if you think that a person that has proven his stripes really hard should be thrown from a party for a mistake, I think you are more totalitarian than the big bad stalinists.

Giving nazis a platform isn't just "making a mistake". And yes, they should make an announcement, in order to make it clear that they are not soft on fascism.

If the Sifonios let a center-right political party speak, then yes, I'd agree that it was just a screw up. But giving fascists a platform is not just something you can shrug off and say "oops" to. And the KKE is not even doing that, they're trying to say they were fooled or whatever, which you and I know is horseshit, because there are no way those workers were on the picket without some sort of security element.

I am not a "totalitarian" for demanding that people be held accountable when they give a platform to fascists. Not to mention, I am an authoritarian, I am unquestionably in favor of the authority of the working class.

Dimmu

23rd February 2012, 16:06

So during these times when the capitalists are trying to destroy the working class in Greece you have the KKE giving a platform to a member of an ideology whose main purpose is to crush the workers movement?

manic expression

23rd February 2012, 16:07

@cmoney: it is quite reasonable that the KKE not air out their inter-party discipline. We can't exactly expect them to post such decisions on libcom in order to make their political opponents feel better.

You're one dishonest fuck.
I don't care for the claims some here are making. It's clear that you indeed are closing your eyes, from the simple fact that you refuse to engage the points I made.
For some second or third time, without answer, how does this incident, given that the perpetrator is a trade union head and a member of KKE, reflect on the internal organizational policies of KKE, and what do these policies imply with regard to the overall functioning and role of the party?
Those who don't see a relevance in these questions need to reexamine their politics, and do it very seriously.
That's rich. You use a single, isolated incident (and I note that you have NOT objected to this claim) to try to darken the reputation of one of the strongest communist parties in Europe...but I'm the dishonest one. Call me a "fuck" all you like, I'll still be waiting for you to make an argument worth giving a fuck about.

GoddessCleoLover

23rd February 2012, 16:21

To be fair, AttackGr asserts that the decision was taken by the local union, not by the KKE. I still believe that it is indicative of a certain backwardness in the political struggle that this occurred. I can see now how this blunder could have occurred, since the situation seems to involve overlapping union/party issues. KKE decided to misconstrue what actually happened in its propaganda and once this KKE "stonewalling" was subjected to scrutiny the cover-up was exposed.
Although to my mind AttackGr is trying to place matters in the best light for the KKE, it is only natural for one to be loyal to his party, Nonetheless, I do appreciate AttackGr's time and effort taken to explain the details of the situation. It happened, it was bad, but not the end of the world, and Greek leftists will have to decide whether they wish to align with KKE, SYRIZA, or some other political entity.

#FF0000

23rd February 2012, 16:25

@cmoney: it is quite reasonable that the KKE not air out their inter-party discipline. We can't exactly expect them to post such decisions on libcom in order to make their political opponents feel better.

Their political opponents as in other communists?

Well, that makes sense. It is the KKE after all.

But yeah, no, normally I'd say it's reasonable, but uh, in this case at least a "hey we fucked up pretty bad here" would be great instead of endless apologetics about how it's not that bad that they were hanging out with Nazis.

i mean holy shit even in the united states you'd have leftists flipping shit if some nobodies from the PSL shared a stage with some nobodies from the A3P or something, but here you have a dude from one of the "strongest communist parties in Europe" sharing a stage with a representative from a fascist group which has enjoyed a cozy relationship with the police in the past and not even batting an eye.

And even if this whole thing was just an incredible fuckup, then why bother covering it up?

Endless dumbness either way.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 16:27

@cmoney: it is quite reasonable that the KKE not air out their inter-party discipline. We can't exactly expect them to post such decisions on libcom in order to make their political opponents feel better.

That's rich. You use a single, isolated incident (and I note that you have NOT objected to this claim) to try to darken the reputation of one of the strongest communist parties in Europe...but I'm the dishonest one. Call me a "fuck" all you like, I'll still be waiting for you to make an argument worth giving a fuck about.

This is what I don't get about you lot.

The KKE is the vanguard right? I'm a worker, a communist worker nonetheless, so that party is my vanguard, right? And it exists to serve the people right? The how in the motherfuck do they not owe me an immediate explanation and resolution when one of their officials gives a platform to nazis?

The party and its integrity do not come before the workers. And the party has no integrity if it can't account for itself.

GoddessCleoLover

23rd February 2012, 16:29

Apparently the party line is to deflect or stonewall that question. It will be interesting to see if SYRIZA, who I believe is KKE's chief competitor to the left of PASOK decides to make an issue of this or not.

KurtFF8

23rd February 2012, 16:30

And even if this whole thing was just an incredible fuckup, then why bother covering it up?

Endless dumbness either way.

I agree with this. Even if it was completley out of the hands of the KKE or even that union president, the KKE's response seems dishonest.

I'm not nearly as anti-KKE as many of the members on this site, but they certainly handled this quite poorly it seems

GoddessCleoLover

23rd February 2012, 16:33

Hasn't the KKE handled this one in the "fine" tradition of the CPSU and the Comintern?

manic expression

23rd February 2012, 16:54

Their political opponents as in other communists?

Well, that makes sense. It is the KKE after all.
That's quite unfair...virtually all communists have political opponents who are also communists. It's been that way since there were communists.

But yeah, no, normally I'd say it's reasonable, but uh, in this case at least a "hey we fucked up pretty bad here" would be great instead of endless apologetics about how it's not that bad that they were hanging out with Nazis.

i mean holy shit even in the united states you'd have leftists flipping shit if some nobodies from the PSL shared a stage with some nobodies from the A3P or something, but here you have a dude from one of the "strongest communist parties in Europe" sharing a stage with a representative from a fascist group which has enjoyed a cozy relationship with the police in the past and not even batting an eye.

And even if this whole thing was just an incredible fuckup, then why bother covering it up?

Endless dumbness either way.
I don't think it's a "cover up" as it were, but still I see your point, the statement wasn't what it could have been. However, it's not as simple as someone in the KKE deciding that they like fascists...reportedly the decision was not made by a KKE member, and I suspect that members of the KKE there were thrust into an unenviable situation when a (non-KKE) leader of the strike made a huge fuckup while the success of the strike itself is still very much in doubt. As more facts come out, the less black and white this becomes, really. So again, I don't disagree that the response leaves a lot to be desired, but we're still forming a solid picture of what happened.

This is what I don't get about you lot.

The KKE is the vanguard right? I'm a worker, a communist worker nonetheless, so that party is my vanguard, right? And it exists to serve the people right? The how in the motherfuck do they not owe me an immediate explanation and resolution when one of their officials gives a platform to nazis?

The party and its integrity do not come before the workers. And the party has no integrity if it can't account for itself.
I could split hairs about the role of the vanguard, but I'll speak directly to your point: the KKE can best account for itself by getting its house in order, and as I said above that may just be undercut if it starts putting out press releases about its intraparty affairs. The strike, as far as I know, is still going on, and the national leadership trying to dive in and root out anyone who might have had a part in this (the ones most responsible seem to not even be KKE members) can only bring a negative impact to that situation. If this can be dealt with behind closed doors, it would be beneficial to the workers on the picket line, and the importance of that cannot be understated.

GoddessCleoLover

23rd February 2012, 17:43

Is KKE any more the "vanguard" than is SYRIZA?

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 17:44

That's quite unfair...virtually all communists have political opponents who are also communists. It's been that way since there were communists.

I don't think it's a "cover up" as it were, but still I see your point, the statement wasn't what it could have been. However, it's not as simple as someone in the KKE deciding that they like fascists...reportedly the decision was not made by a KKE member, and I suspect that members of the KKE there were thrust into an unenviable situation when a (non-KKE) leader of the strike made a huge fuckup while the success of the strike itself is still very much in doubt. As more facts come out, the less black and white this becomes, really. So again, I don't disagree that the response leaves a lot to be desired, but we're still forming a solid picture of what happened.

I could split hairs about the role of the vanguard, but I'll speak directly to your point: the KKE can best account for itself by getting its house in order, and as I said above that may just be undercut if it starts putting out press releases about its intraparty affairs. The strike, as far as I know, is still going on, and the national leadership trying to dive in and root out anyone who might have had a part in this (the ones most responsible seem to not even be KKE members) can only bring a negative impact to that situation. If this can be dealt with behind closed doors, it would be beneficial to the workers on the picket line, and the importance of that cannot be understated.

I'm pretty sure, its your ideology which suggests that the party has a duty to the people, they are supposed to be the most advanced sectors of the working class, and the ones with the clear analysis to make revolution a reality. Where does handing a platform to nazis fit in with that? Of course it does not. Obvious solution is blatantly fucking obvious...

Not only did the KKE not release a statement suggesting they would get to the bottom of this sitution, they closed ranks, claimed this wasn't their fault and they had nothing to do with it, and then their supporters come along to denounce anybody who is critical of the party as being anti-working class, bourgeois stooges/fascists/hooded ones/whatever the fuck else is the cool shit for the KKE to say.

The KKE killed comunists, the KKE still attacks working class organizations outside of its control to this day (physcially, mind you, not just rhetorically), and they share platforms with nazis.

Those are indisputable facts.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 17:47

I'm pretty sure, its your ideology which suggests that the party has a duty to the people, they are supposed to be the most advanced sectors of the working class, and the ones with the clear analysis to make revolution a reality. Where does handing a platform to nazis fit in with that? Of course it does not. Obvious solution is blatantly fucking obvious...

Not only did the KKE not release a statement suggesting they would get to the bottom of this sitution, they closed ranks, claimed this wasn't their fault and they had nothing to do with it, and then their supporters come along to denounce anybody who is critical of the party as being anti-working class, bourgeois stooges/fascists/hooded ones/whatever the fuck else is the cool shit for the KKE to say.

The KKE killed comunists, the KKE still attacks working class organizations outside of its control to this day (physcially, mind you, not just rhetorically), and they share platforms with nazis.

Those are indisputable facts.
Excuse me, what working class organizations have been attacked by KKE?

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 17:52

Excuse me, what working class organizations have been attacked by KKE?

We Won't Pay movement, and various anarchist organizations.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 17:58

We Won't Pay movement, and various anarchist organizations.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
These are WORKING CLASS ORGANIZATIONS? They have NO relation with the working class man! NONE. I m sorry, I dont want to really attack anarchists, but thats the truth. Anarchists excist nowhere in the organised workers movement and We Wont Pay consists 90% by petit bourgeois(and thats something they themselves say).

Next thing you gon say that CCF are a syndicate!!

Lets just call them "anticapitalist organizations".

#FF0000

23rd February 2012, 18:05

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
These are WORKING CLASS ORGANIZATIONS? They have NO relation with the working class man!

uh huh.

so

anarchists don't count as workers? or is it only when they run a union?

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 18:09

uh huh.

so

anarchists don't count as workers? or is it only when they run a union?
Anarchists, as any other political tendecy, count as workers if they are involved in the working class struggle. Many anarchists even in 2012 turn down even the concept of class struggle. Plus, anarchosyndicalism dont really exist in Greece unfortunatly. So, yeah. They dont.

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 18:09

Attackgr is just mad cause he got kicked out of anarchy for being a racist and a sexist.

GoddessCleoLover

23rd February 2012, 18:11

Isn't this thread becoming just a flame war?

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 18:14

Isn't this thread becoming just a flame war?

Unfortunately when you try to criticisize the KKE for anything their supporters will call you a fascist or an enemy of the working class. There is really no debate you can possibly have with people like that.

The KKE is a politcal party of internet trolls.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 18:14

Attackgr is just mad cause he got kicked out of anarchy for being a racist and a sexist.
A racist and a sexist? Nice. :laugh:But anarchists are still nowhere in unions. But thats something that a fan of CCF wouldnt care about, would he?

The Douche

23rd February 2012, 18:26

A racist and a sexist? Nice. :laugh:But anarchists are still nowhere in unions. But thats something that a fan of CCF wouldnt care about, would he?

Hey man, you're the one who was bragging about saying "nigger", and who was calling posters on this board "*****" or "pussy", and talking about how cool you are cause you're so "anti-pc".

And no, I don't give a fuck about how many anarchists are in unions, because the unions are not making revolution, and never will make revolution. Revolution will leave unions and parties in the dust. Good luck with your elections to parliament, shithead.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 18:38

Hey man, you're the one who was bragging about saying "nigger", and who was calling posters on this board "*****" or "pussy", and talking about how cool you are cause you're so "anti-pc".

And no, I don't give a fuck about how many anarchists are in unions, because the unions are not making revolution, and never will make revolution. Revolution will leave unions and parties in the dust. Good luck with your elections to parliament, shithead.
:drool:

First of all, I said that I have a hommie(anarchist btw) that is half black and that I am making jokes about his colour as he is making about mine.:lol: We are BOTH racists and we actually hate each other!!!

Other than that the opinions about unions and parties are at least suitable for a CCF fanboy. Just dont promote them in the name of communism please. :thumbup1:

Decolonize The Left

23rd February 2012, 19:02

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
These are WORKING CLASS ORGANIZATIONS? They have NO relation with the working class man! NONE. I m sorry, I dont want to really attack anarchists, but thats the truth. Anarchists excist nowhere in the organised workers movement and We Wont Pay consists 90% by petit bourgeois(and thats something they themselves say).

Next thing you gon say that CCF are a syndicate!!

Lets just call them "anticapitalist organizations".

You need to do some reading on that thing.... what is it... right. Communism.

That's that weird economic philosophy and political ideology which states that all members of the working class fundamentally share the same economic (and hence social) interests and should band together to overthrow their oppressors.

You seem to forget that "all members of the working class" applies regardless of ideology. So anarchists are members of the working class whether or not they support what you support in terms of political avenues of action.

Get your shit straight before you get yourself banned for being a fuckwad.

- August

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 19:07

You need to do some reading on that thing.... what is it... right. Communism.

That's that weird economic philosophy and political ideology which states that all members of the working class fundamentally share the same economic (and hence social) interests and should band together to overthrow their oppressors.

You seem to forget that "all members of the working class" applies regardless of ideology. So anarchists are members of the working class whether or not they support what you support in terms of political avenues of action.

Get your shit straight before you get yourself banned for being a fuckwad.

- August
Is it something about the anarchists mods that makes them so totalitarian?:D

So, acording to your definition, a right wing party is a working class organization too, right? Cause many workers are right wingers. :lol:

Brosip Tito

23rd February 2012, 19:09

All ML parties are a joke. The punchline that is the activity of the KKE was told months ago when they aided the police, and sided with the bourgeoisie to fight off our non-ML comrades. Their activity is completely embarrassing, and what's more so, is the defense they get from people on this site.

The KKE, are enemies of the working class in Greece, and therefore enemies of the international working class.

Brosip Tito

23rd February 2012, 19:12

Get your shit straight before you get yourself banned for being a fuckwad.

- August
I believe this is called flaming.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 19:15

Is KKE any more the "vanguard" than is SYRIZA?

Yes. KKE claims to be a vanguard party while SYRIZA does not. SYRIZA is a coalition of several parties working together....including

democratic socialists
trotskyists
left communists
maoists
eco-socialists
libertarian socialists
Euro communists
independent activists

Arilou Lalee'lay

23rd February 2012, 19:25

Ugh i don't want to read thru all this thread. I have a pretty damn good guess of what it contains. I mainly want to say thanks to the people who keep posting news on this topic, which is obviously extremely interesting.

Anywho, any communist party that has not said "screw taking away freedom of speach and torturing people and state control opposed to worker control" is counter revolutionary. History should make this obvious. If you find yourself sympathizing with the KKE in any possible way, you need to read more. That's my two cents.

Decolonize The Left

23rd February 2012, 19:25

Is it something about the anarchists mods that makes them so totalitarian?:D

So, acording to your definition, a right wing party is a working class organization too, right? Cause many workers are right wingers. :lol:

Yes, even the members of a right-wing party are members of the working class, economically speaking. When it comes down to it, they often side with the interests of the capitalist class as their racist/sexist tendencies are exploited by the capitalist class.

But yes, working class is working class. It doesn't matter what you think or believe, it's a relationship to the means of production.

- August

OCMO

23rd February 2012, 19:27

Yes. KKE claims to be a vanguard party while SYRIZA does not. SYRIZA is a coalition of several parties working together....including

democratic socialists
trotskyists
left communists
maoists
eco-socialists
libertarian socialists
Euro communists
independent activists
How does SYRIZA acts? You seem to know the greek situation with relative depth and i would like to know if they are that different from the portuguese Left Bloc. The Left Bloc is also a coalition of several minor parties and a few recognized leftist independents. Individually, all those parties could be considered more radical than the Portuguese CP but they joined and turned into a social-democratic party more interested in getting support from the liberal professions and students rather than the average worker. Mentions to socialism are practically non-existent. How much of this can be related to SYRIZA?

Os Cangaceiros

23rd February 2012, 19:32

Anarchists, as any other political tendecy, count as workers if they are involved in the working class struggle. Many anarchists even in 2012 turn down even the concept of class struggle. Plus, anarchosyndicalism dont really exist in Greece unfortunatly. So, yeah. They dont.

People count as workers by virtue of their position in the economy, not because they're involved in some kind of "acceptable" struggle by left-wing troglodytes.

edit: should've read the last page, I see that AW beat me to this point.

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 19:44

How does SYRIZA acts? You seem to know the greek situation with relative depth and i would like to know if they are that different from the portuguese Left Bloc. The Left Bloc is also a coalition of several minor parties and a few recognized leftist independents. Individually, all those parties could be considered more radical than the Portuguese CP but they joined and turned into a social-democratic party more interested in getting support from the liberal professions and students rather than the average worker. Mentions to socialism are practically non-existent. How much of this can be related to SYRIZA?

SYRIZA is operating in parliament....soooo... ;)

But its main principle is the rejection of the socialist center. The cooperation between the parties is based on common grounds on certain issues.

SYRIZA is most active in calling for unity on the left. As was seen in October when KKE accused SYRIZA of supporting "the hooded rioters". When SYRIZ denounced both the KKE/PAME helmet carriers and the others (bat carriers) for the violence that disrupted workers union.

For me neither KKE nor SYRIZA are really revolutionary parties. Both intertwined with the current burgeoisie system and working first and foremost for reforms or parliamentary overthrow of capitalism....and only after they probably would support a revolution. Both support the working class in the current economic struggle.

I think SYRIZA is slightly more radical than the Left Bloc but they have close ties with them.

piet11111

23rd February 2012, 19:57

I believe this is called flaming.

Well i suppose it is but AttackGr deals out more then enough bullshit that can be considered flaming to have earned a similar response from AugustWest whom i consider one of the most polite posters on this forum.

But regarding the KKE they should come up with a clear position on this matter that can explain the many issues that especially hindsight20/20 put forward in this thread instead of resorting to blame shifting.

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 20:09

People count as workers by virtue of their position in the economy, not because they're involved in some kind of "acceptable" struggle by left-wing troglodytes.

edit: should've read the last page, I see that AW beat me to this point.
The fact that we are not talking about people but organizations seems to be slipping through your analysis for some reason. Maybe because then, you have to say "yes, even a right winger party is a working class organization, since they have workers in them" like your man AW just did.:lol:

Delenda Carthago

23rd February 2012, 20:14

Yes. KKE claims to be a vanguard party while SYRIZA does not. SYRIZA is a coalition of several parties working together....including

democratic socialists
trotskyists
left communists
maoists
eco-socialists
libertarian socialists
Euro communists
independent activists
It would be kinda hard for SYRIZA to act as a vanguard since they have pretty much no connection with the working class. Their influence ends in the amfitheaters of the univercities. We are talkin about parties that consist of 500 to 100 people in whole Greece. All besides Synaspismos, which is a socialdemocrat party. Synaspismos union part, Autonomi Paremvasi is often collaborating with PASOK's one, PASKE.

Decolonize The Left

23rd February 2012, 20:18

The fact that we are not talking about people but organizations seems to be slipping through your analysis for some reason. Maybe because then, you have to say "yes, even a right winger party is a working class organization, since they have workers in them" like your man AW just did.:lol:

No, and here's the problem with organizations.

You can have a "right-wing organization" which is totally anti-working class despite being composed 100% of working class people. For example, a right-wing pro-capitalist organization is anti-working class as it seeks to further disenfranchise the working class. YET, it is composed of and advocated by working class people.

These members of the working-class are not class conscious - i.e. they do not recognize that their interests are separate from, and antagonistic to, those of the capitalist class.

They are still members of the working class though, even if they actively work against their own interests.

- August

Искра

23rd February 2012, 20:21

PhoenixAsh

23rd February 2012, 20:25

Ok....wait...so now I am thoroughly confused....I actually tried to explain the issue to some non radfical friends...and I simply got stuck in presenting a neutral portrayal of the events.....they laughed their asses off.

Because at first we were led to believe for months that KKE/PAME were instrumental in organising the strike. Then we find out that this isn't the case. That the workers independent of KKE/PAME are organising the strike..That the union of the steel workers organised the strike...

Which belongs to PAME according to KKE...and is definately PAME and led by a man considered by PAME to be a cadre member and who also is or was part of the KKE and ran for office for the KKE a few years back.

But that the actual involvement of both PAME and KKE in the strike is at best only a supportive role with no actual involvement and mostly limited to financial aid.

Then we hear that the workers elected to let GD in. And that PAME/KKE officials who are leading their union could do nothing about this...not even remain silent...but were forced to thank them. We are also told that the GD arrived unannounced as a provoction to PAME/KKE....which is also according to official KKE statements about the event.

Which...considering the above arguments is rather strange. Since PAME/KKE are not really involved in the strike...how could GD provocate KKE and PAME by showing up? This could have hardly been the aim...since well...the claim is that PAME and KKE had so little influence in the strike that they were forced to go along with the wishes of the workers who apparantly were not opposed, nay...rather chose...., to let everybody speak including fascists.

The workers then released a statement which basically said...well we are not tools of GD. They arrived unnanounced and we were duped. Which is rather strange...seeing as they elected previously to let everybody speak in their favor.

Now....amidst this whole affair which started more than a hundred days ago and in which there has been ample evidence that a guard is necessary to protect the strike location....seeing as in the early days and weeks the bosses and the burgeoisie trade unions tried to break the strike on more than one occasion. (incidentally they used banners and signs denouncing both KKE and PAME for this...which is I guess a horrible misunderstanding of the nature of the strike seeing as neither has anything to do with it rather than just support the decision of the workers in all and each event)....but this guard has been ostensibly absent from the site the day GD conveniently showed up.

I say conveniently because there apparantly was a vote by 50 of the workers to stop the strike that very same day...

So....who the hell is leading the strike? And just who are these forces which both the PAME, KKE and workers are alluding to who claim political ownership of the strike in order to capitalise on it? Since basically KKE and PAME neither have anything but sideline support for the strike...and they are claiming ownership of the event...I am throroughly confused as to who is meant.

Because well...they all seem to mean different groups. Apparantly the KKE and PAME include SYRIZA in this group...but...only after they offcourse published a, lets be honest, fairly objective article on the GD visit. They also include Anarchists...whom in the arguments presented here are not only trying to capitalise but are also part of the provocation and not part of the working class.

So somebody needs to explain all the contradictory information given....

just saying...

Omsk

23rd February 2012, 21:30

Ravachol

23rd February 2012, 22:10

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
These are WORKING CLASS ORGANIZATIONS? They have NO relation with the working class man!

These are organisations, however small, composed of working-class members acting for their interests as-a-class. That makes them working class organisations, whether you like it or not. But I guess only Stalinist controlled unions count as 't3h working class!!1!!'.

Anarchists, as any other political tendecy, count as workers if they are involved in the working class struggle. Many anarchists even in 2012 turn down even the concept of class struggle. Plus, anarchosyndicalism dont really exist in Greece unfortunatly. So, yeah. They dont.

Anarcho-Syndicalism isn't the only class-strugglist tendency within anarchism. Insurrectionary Anarchism is very much class-focused and there is plenty material coming out of the Anti-Authoritarian and Anarchist milieu in Greece focussing on this. You're trying to conflate the whole anarchist space with nihilism which I simply false. Plenty of comrades of mine have been to Greece multiple times during the past few years and there are multiple Greek members in the organisation I'm in, as well as various organisations we're allied to, so don't try to play the "I'm from Greece and nobody else has a clear view of the situation" card.

consists 90% by petit bourgeois

I thought the petit-bourgeoisie was part of the whole Stalinist blablabla about 'the people' and 'uniting the opressed classes against international capital'? Or is that only when shop windows are being broken?

A racist and a sexist? Nice. :laugh:But anarchists are still nowhere in unions. But thats something that a fan of CCF wouldnt care about, would he?

Luckily not. The unions are counter-revolutionary institutions maintaining social peace by bargaining about the price of labour, thus continually reproducing the wage relation. As a Leninist you ought to be familiar with the phrase 'trade union consciousness', something that even Leninists ought to consider as something to get rid of as quickly as possible.

There's plenty of ways to wage the class struggle, even standing in solidarity with strikes which are, as of yet, dominated by trade unions, without being active within them and thus reinforcing their structures and their control over the working class. If you want a good look at the role of the trade unions (and how useless of counter-revolutionary they can be) just take a long hard look at the German Revolution of 1919. Or hell, even closer, Italy '77.

It won't be long before the KKE will rephrase the PCI's dictum against the Brigate Rosse, this time "Either with the hooded-provocateurs, or with the State!". :rolleyes:

But I don't think you're that interested. Only a year ago you were all into nihilism and what not, attacking everybody and everything who didn't jump on that bandwagon and now it's 'Die Partei hat Immer recht'.